"Absent a shred of evidence that Brady deserves more credit than the long snapper, why wouldn't you also laugh at what Bronco said?"
The QB deserves more credit than the long snapper since he happens to be on the field for waaaaaaaay more plays in any game. I get your argument but that statement is ridiculous.
@bobbybakeriv said:
"Absent a shred of evidence that Brady deserves more credit than the long snapper, why wouldn't you also laugh at what Bronco said?"
The QB deserves more credit than the long snapper since he happens to be on the field for waaaaaaaay more plays in any game. I get your argument but that statement is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure you don't get my argument. I'm not saying that the long snapper gets more credit for winning or losing a game than the QB, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying the long snapper, or the waterboy, or a coach, or a QB, or literally any living person on the team or on the sideline, gets the same credit for "elevating the play" of that team's defense absent a shred of evidence that the QB was the one doing the elevating, or that said defensive play was even elevated by anyone at all. And, more to your point, the fact that Brady is out on the field whenever the defense is on the sideline, makes it pretty much impossible for him to inspire anyone on the defense. The long snapper can talk to the defense, slap their backs, give 'em the ol' Knute Rockne treatment if he wants to and the D is willing to listen.
Since there is, in absolute fact, not a shred of evidence that Brady should be getting defensive elevation credit, one has to either laugh or cry at the poor souls who want to give him that credit. I choose to laugh, but I first had to suppress my initial impulse to weep. You want to talk about ridiculous, how about choosing Tom Brady as your personal Lord and savior? Look at that interception! Thank Brady, we've won the game! It's a miracle!!!
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@bobbybakeriv said:
"Absent a shred of evidence that Brady deserves more credit than the long snapper, why wouldn't you also laugh at what Bronco said?"
The QB deserves more credit than the long snapper since he happens to be on the field for waaaaaaaay more plays in any game. I get your argument but that statement is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure you don't get my argument. I'm not saying that the long snapper gets more credit for winning or losing a game than the QB, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying the long snapper, or the waterboy, or a coach, or a QB, or literally any living person on the team or on the sideline, gets the same credit for "elevating the play" of that team's defense absent a shred of evidence that the QB was the one doing the elevating, or that said defensive play was even elevated by anyone at all. And, more to your point, the fact that Brady is out on the field whenever the defense is on the sideline, makes it pretty much impossible for him to inspire anyone on the defense. The long snapper can talk to the defense, slap their backs, give 'em the ol' Knute Rockne treatment if he wants to and the D is willing to listen.
Since there is, in absolute fact, not a shred of evidence that Brady should be getting defensive elevation credit, one has to either laugh or cry at the poor souls who want to give him that credit. I choose to laugh, but I first had to suppress my initial impulse to weep. You want to talk about ridiculous, how about choosing Tom Brady as your personal Lord and savior? Look at that interception! Thank Brady, we've won the game! It's a miracle!!!
I get the point you are making. I am no Brady lover and I agree that the QB often gets more credit or blame many times for a win or loss. However, the coaching staff and many players have stated on the record that Brady has made a significant positive impact on the team as a whole. Much of this influence likely transpires during game prep or in the locker room and not necessarily while the game is being played.
I don't know where the "personal Lord and savior" remark comes from but in no way do I view any athlete or human as such. I believe having Brady is more important to Tampa Bay's making it to the Superbowl than you do. And that is fine. I just felt the long snapper comment was a tad out there.
of course a great QB can elevate every player on the defense. what a foolish statement by dallasactuary.
who exactly do you think that defense is playing against all week long in practice? a great QB will certainly elevate the entire defensive unit far far far more than an average one. Do you think it is more impactful to go against Joe Montana all week long in practice or Bobby Herbert?
practicing against the best makes you better. period.
so yes, Tom Brady does elevate his defenses. possibly as much as any other player.
And I believe that the coaching staff and some of the players have said this. Brady has no doubt had a positive impact on his teams; he's a great QB. What I want to hear is a player on the defense say "Yeah, I got the {interception/tackle/sack} that ended the game, but Tom Brady is the one who deserves the credit. I'm not a very good football player, I just feed off the elevating impact of Tom."
Got a quote like that? Of course you don't, because it never happened. But the armchair "fans" - the ones who deep down don't really understand what football is - ARE saying that. "The {DB/LB/DE} isn't really very good, it's just Tom Brady making him look good." In addition to betraying a deep and abiding ignorance of football, statements like that infantilize the other players on the team, and deny them the credit that they've earned every bit as much as Tom Brady has earned his credit.
And yes, reasonable people can disagree about how much credit to give Brady for TB making the Super Bowl. But reasonable people will confine their argument to the improvement in TB's offense. Once you give Brady credit for the increased number of interceptions made by the defense you aren't arguing football anymore, you're preaching your religion. And I'm going to laugh at you the same as I'd laugh at someone who worships his sofa.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@bronco2078 said:
no spreadsheet has ever won a superbowl
No QB has ever won a Super Bowl either. It's even rare that the best player on the teams that have won the Super Bowl was the QB. Griese wasn't even in the top 10 in either of the Dolphins wins (probably not even top 20 in the first one), but people still say "Griese won 2 Super Bowls". It's not nice to laugh at the mentally handicapped, but it's hard not to laugh at stuff like that.
@dallasactuary Your last sentence is very telling. I honestly didn't think that you felt as though those who don't agree with you are actually mentally disabled. I'm being serious. It sounds belittling. If I'm taking this wrong, please correct me and I apologize in advance.
Dallas- I bet this comment has been made more than once by a player on New England's
defensive unit to the rest of the defense with just a few minutes left in the game.
"Hey we're down 3 points, let's get a stop here for our offense and give the ball to the best QB in the game."
I figure knowing that if they make a stop they have a pretty decent chance to win may give them a boost.
But with a mediocre QB they're probably not that pumped about their chances.
Therefore in a situation like that Brady is elevating the defense just with his reputation alone.
@dallasactuary said:
And I believe that the coaching staff and some of the players have said this. Brady has no doubt had a positive impact on his teams; he's a great QB. What I want to hear is a player on the defense say "Yeah, I got the {interception/tackle/sack} that ended the game, but Tom Brady is the one who deserves the credit. I'm not a very good football player, I just feed off the elevating impact of Tom."
Got a quote like that? Of course you don't, because it never happened. But the armchair "fans" - the ones who deep down don't really understand what football is - ARE saying that. "The {DB/LB/DE} isn't really very good, it's just Tom Brady making him look good." In addition to betraying a deep and abiding ignorance of football, statements like that infantilize the other players on the team, and deny them the credit that they've earned every bit as much as Tom Brady has earned his credit.
And yes, reasonable people can disagree about how much credit to give Brady for TB making the Super Bowl. But reasonable people will confine their argument to the improvement in TB's offense. Once you give Brady credit for the increased number of interceptions made by the defense you aren't arguing football anymore, you're preaching your religion. And I'm going to laugh at you the same as I'd laugh at someone who worships his sofa.
you don't think practicing against a great QB elevates the play of the defense? If you don't, you are sadly mistaken.
@Darin said:
I figure knowing that if they make a stop they have a pretty decent chance to win may give them a boost.
But with a mediocre QB they're probably not that pumped about their chances.
Therefore in a situation like that Brady is elevating the defense just with his reputation alone.
If it is your belief that the people who play defense are unprofessional and don't try to play their best on every down then so be it. If you think they don't care whether they look bad no matter what that means for their future when their contracts are up, so be it. If you think they will give 100% to make a stop when their QB gives the team an 80% chance of coming back, but not when a lesser QB will only give them a 60% chance, then so be it. There are your religious beliefs and you are entitled to them. What I know for sure is that you don't have a shred of evidence to support any of these beliefs. That's why they call it "faith". May Brady bless you.
@craig44 said:
you don't think practicing against a great QB elevates the play of the defense? If you don't, you are sadly mistaken.
I've only played football at the high school level, but at least at that level I know that hitting the QB in practice will result in the coach chewing you a new orifice. If the QB is Tom Brady I suspect the result is two new orifices. In practice, every QB is great because he knows he can do whatever he wants to do and he'll never get hurt. For the linemen's benefit I'm sure TB has practices where they get to go 100%; Tom Brady is not the QB in those practices, I guarantee it.
I'm sure practicing against an NFL QB will elevate the defense's play a whole lot more than practicing against Uncle Rico. But it's practice, and I don't think it matters at all which NFL QB is standing there in his bubble o' protection throwing the ball.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Let's just drop the hostile part of this debate. Some of us believe one way, others another.
However, I will state for the record, motivation (albeit intangible) is real. And, some people have the gift to motivate those around them (e.g., Joe Montana), others do not (e.g., Jeff George). I believe Brady has it. I played competitive sports beyond HS and witnessed this (i.e., baseball for me). I played 3B alongside Mike Gundy in HS and he had it. I believe that he actually could motivate his teammates including pitchers to believe in themselves and us IMHO. Call it faith, belief, intangibles, "religion" or whatever. It exists. And BELIEF is more than half the battle in all sports. Without it, there is no winning. Attitude counts and even moreso for a QB. I do agree with you that too much credit is often given certain positions like QB but that is also why they are paid the big money.
@Darin said:
I figure knowing that if they make a stop they have a pretty decent chance to win may give them a boost.
But with a mediocre QB they're probably not that pumped about their chances.
Therefore in a situation like that Brady is elevating the defense just with his reputation alone.
If it is your belief that the people who play defense are unprofessional and don't try to play their best on every down then so be it. If you think they don't care whether they look bad no matter what that means for their future when their contracts are up, so be it. If you think they will give 100% to make a stop when their QB gives the team an 80% chance of coming back, but not when a lesser QB will only give them a 60% chance, then so be it. There are your religious beliefs and you are entitled to them. What I know for sure is that you don't have a shred of evidence to support any of these beliefs. That's why they call it "faith". May Brady bless you.
@craig44 said:
you don't think practicing against a great QB elevates the play of the defense? If you don't, you are sadly mistaken.
I've only played football at the high school level, but at least at that level I know that hitting the QB in practice will result in the coach chewing you a new orifice. If the QB is Tom Brady I suspect the result is two new orifices. In practice, every QB is great because he knows he can do whatever he wants to do and he'll never get hurt. For the linemen's benefit I'm sure TB has practices where they get to go 100%; Tom Brady is not the QB in those practices, I guarantee it.
I'm sure practicing against an NFL QB will elevate the defense's play a whole lot more than practicing against Uncle Rico. But it's practice, and I don't think it matters at all which NFL QB is standing there in his bubble o' protection throwing the ball.
in the NFL, practice and preparation is the name of the game. some QBs are impossible to duplicate and thus are invaluable for a teams defense to practice against. Mohomes is one, Rodgers is one. So is Brady.
I don’t think anyone believes Brady or any QB elevates any defense in a literal sense. There are good motivators or “Leaders” that play QB, basically a guy who teammates want to play hard for. That counts for something but not when it sets the bar on a QB’s rating Ofcourse. As far as Brady elevating players on offense it’s absolutely absurd to think otherwise, Wes Welker’s play vastly improved after he left Miami and came to New England, and that was a direct result of Brady. Julian Edelman probably would have been out of the NFL after his first few years in the league had it not been for Brady.
@craig44 said:
in the NFL, practice and preparation is the name of the game. some QBs are impossible to duplicate and thus are invaluable for a teams defense to practice against. Mohomes is one, Rodgers is one. So is Brady.
You lost me here. Why does practicing against Brady help a defense defend against other QBs, who are "impossible to duplicate". I can see how practicing against Brady for years would help an individual defender defend against Brady if one of them got traded, but I don't see how it helps that defender defend against Lamar Jackson.
@perkdog said:
As far as Brady elevating players on offense it’s absolutely absurd to think otherwise, Wes Welker’s play vastly improved after he left Miami and came to New England, and that was a direct result of Brady. Julian Edelman probably would have been out of the NFL after his first few years in the league had it not been for Brady.
Absolutely true. It's a team game; Brady elevates the play of those he's playing with, and those payers elevate Brady's play. At least, that's how it worked on NE for years and that's how it's supposed to work.
And just in case this is what anyone meant by "elevate the defense", I absolutely agree that a defense will play better in a game that is still winnable than in a game when they are losing by 28 with 5 minutes to go. But to play better on defense in a winnable game with one QB than with another QB? That's so absurd, and insulting to the players on defense, I hope nobody actually believes that.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@craig44 said:
in the NFL, practice and preparation is the name of the game. some QBs are impossible to duplicate and thus are invaluable for a teams defense to practice against. Mohomes is one, Rodgers is one. So is Brady.
You lost me here. Why does practicing against Brady help a defense defend against other QBs, who are "impossible to duplicate". I can see how practicing against Brady for years would help an individual defender defend against Brady if one of them got traded, but I don't see how it helps that defender defend against Lamar Jackson.
@perkdog said:
As far as Brady elevating players on offense it’s absolutely absurd to think otherwise, Wes Welker’s play vastly improved after he left Miami and came to New England, and that was a direct result of Brady. Julian Edelman probably would have been out of the NFL after his first few years in the league had it not been for Brady.
Absolutely true. It's a team game; Brady elevates the play of those he's playing with, and those payers elevate Brady's play. At least, that's how it worked on NE for years and that's how it's supposed to work.
And just in case this is what anyone meant by "elevate the defense", I absolutely agree that a defense will play better in a game that is still winnable than in a game when they are losing by 28 with 5 minutes to go. But to play better on defense in a winnable game with one QB than with another QB? That's so absurd, and insulting to the players on defense, I hope nobody actually believes that.
wrong about everything as usual (including jim rice) , perfect consistency
i won't go so far to say that Tom Brady is the primary reason behind a Bucs defender making plays when he otherwise wouldn't, but motivation being a real thing is incontrovertible.
the best current example i can come up with is JJ Watt. he is much closer to his finish line than his starting point in the NFL.
the only team he has ever played for is crumbling right before his very eyes -- they had a hc/gm who single-handedly ran the team into the ground by giving away the best player for pennies on the dollar, and also pulled slick moves like trading away two firsts and a second for an LT who provides a $20 million cap hit per season. the net result of the BOB experiment is a strapped team devoid of high draft picks in next year's draft and now virtually devoid of talent outside of the QB position. if Watson leaves, the Texans will be completely irrelevant for at least the next 5 years. maybe longer. and on top of that, they just hired a head coach who i honestly had never heard of before.
so if you're JJ Watt and you're faced with the prospects of finishing up an illustrious career with an incompetent franchise like that, what's your mo to give 100% every play? i can promise you it would be humanly impossible for me to do so, no matter how much i got paid. a losing culture would do the trick, sooner or later.
now imagine a scenario where he get a new lease on life and goes to, say, an organization like the Pittsburgh Steelers. think his level of effort might be a tinge higher if he was busting out of his 3-point stance with his brother not far away? with a team that regularly makes the playoffs? the correct answer is yes. and could that conceivably result in higher productivity on the field? also yes.
i think it's human nature to drive harder when the carrot is actually visible, and an improvement in players/teams can certainly bring it into view.
@galaxy27 said:
i won't go so far to say that Tom Brady is the primary reason behind a Bucs defender making plays when he otherwise wouldn't, but motivation being a real thing is incontrovertible.
Yes, motivation is a real thing (as are multi-million $ contracts). Now, provide me something, anything, a shred of anything, that indicates Tom Brady, or any QB, is more responsible for said motivation than any other player, coach, or waterboy on any team. Then provide be something, anything, a shred of anything, that tells you that the prospect of earning millions of additional dollars is insufficient motivation, but a somewhat elevated chance of winning a football game is what really matters to the defensive tackles.
If the point that keeps being badly misstated is that having a good QB is better for team morale than having a bad QB, then say that and file it away under "obvious stuff". If that is the point, then exactly the same can be said for a good RB, a good WR, a good RG, a good LB, a good CB, and so on through the roster, And, think about it please, all you're doing is giving Brady, or whoever, double credit for being good. And once we've given everyone on a good team double credit for being good, because we have nothing but our own fantasies to decide which player was the more motivational, we're right back where we started before we gave any motivational credit at all.
This is beyond silly, and I'd be surprised if there really is anyone who doesn't see why. Bronco clearly sees how silly it all is, which is why we said I'm wrong without even hinting at a reason why, and then retreated.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I think I grasp what @dallasactuary is saying here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is saying that on game day no defensive player (or any player) specifically believes that he is playing better at that given moment because of Tom Brady. I get that and can agree with the idea.
However, I don't believe that is the extent of things. Several former Chargers defenders have told me that they became better players because they faced Lance Alworth every day in practice. His talent forced them to try new things to combat him on a regular basis. If they did not improve, then they would be replaced by another player. The challenge of facing a fantastic player every day in practice made them better players on game day. I can only imagine the same could be said about Brady, or any number of excellent players. I think it would be easy to stagnate as a player if you are not challenged on a regular basis. Same goes for most jobs, I think. Though that is not an offer for you all to start posting crazy stuff on here in an effort me make me a better moderator. ;-)
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
While this may have been the case at one time, does 1st team offense practice against 1st team defense these days? Given current salaries, I would highly doubt it.
@AFLfan I see that, and I agree. But you used a WR as your example, Brady or some other QB gets used in other examples, someone in a post long, long ago in this thread used a coach as an example, and surely a RB, DT, DE, RG, LT, etc. could also be used in other examples. In the end, all that's being said is that good players are good to have around.
But the claim is that good players are even better then we think they are because of this motivational value. A team with only one or two good players is going to lose every game and nobody is going to talk about them (unless it's me talking about Ken Anderson). Teams that win Super Bowls are absolutely loaded with good players and what I'm asking is why are we going to give more motivational credit to the QB than any of the other good players? If we give all the players motivational credit in proportion to how good they are, then we've wasted our time - everyone is still ranked in the same order they were before we started. So some want to give the QB extra credit because, you know, quarterbacks. I've asked, gotten no other answer, and I'm pretty sure "because, you know, quarterbacks" is the only argument out there.
If motivational credit is given based on how good a player is, then it can be ignored; measuring how good a player is without regard to any motivational value will get you the same answers. If motivational credit is being given based on anything else, then something, anything, some shred of anything, needs to be provided to back it up. Something other than "because, you know, quarterbacks", I mean.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Now, provide me something, anything, a shred of anything, that indicates Tom Brady, or any QB, is more responsible for said motivation than any other player, coach, or waterboy on any team.
easy. the bling on his hands.
the prospects of having a legitimate shot of winning a championship after years of futility is the ultimate motivator. Tom Brady can bring that out; someone like Rob Gronkowski can't. i'm sure adding Gronk was welcomed with open arms, but no Buccaneer who was accustomed to losing is all of a sudden going to ratchet the effort up a few notches due to his acquisition. but the moment the organization moved on from a guy who could throw 6 picks in a game to a guy with 6 rings on his fingers, things got real. i can promise you the level of motivation and effort by Buccaneers players over the course of a 16-game season with Brady at the helm did not mirror the M & E that was on display when Jameis Winston was irrevocably leading them to nowhere.
i can't speak on behalf of bronco, but i think that's where he was going with his comment. and i get it. i might have phrased it differently, but i get it. the motivational impact that Brady has on teammates is something that very few other players in the NFL, if any, can provide. why? because if he gets his hands on every offensive snap for your team, the chance of you standing in line to hoist the Lombardi in a post-SB celebration just increased significantly.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of that. Most of the Patriots teams weren't necessarily loaded with great players. Some combination of a great Belichick system, a handful of key players and others who did their jobs well and/or worked well as a unit were responsible. And I mentioned Alworth only because his is a story I know. But why can't a great defensive lineman rally a defense? Or a great special teams player who gives his all to make tackles excite a team and get them to play better? It seems as though you are saying that inspiration and momentum are non-factors. You cannot scientifically measure either, but I also think you would be hard-pressed to find players who say they don't mean anything.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
Now, provide me something, anything, a shred of anything, that indicates Tom Brady, or any QB, is more responsible for said motivation than any other player, coach, or waterboy on any team.
easy. the bling on his hands.
I. Am. Speechless.
@AFLfan said:
But why can't a great defensive lineman rally a defense? Or a great special teams player who gives his all to make tackles excite a team and get them to play better? It seems as though you are saying that inspiration and momentum are non-factors. You cannot scientifically measure either, but I also think you would be hard-pressed to find players who say they don't mean anything.
But this doesn't refute my point, it was my point. Of course a defensive lineman can rally a defense. Or a special teams player. Or anyone else. They can all do it, and I'm sure they all try to do it. I'm not saying that inspiration and momentum are non-factors, I'm saying that the only way to reach the conclusion that it is specifically the QB who is the prime motivator is to start from the assumption that the QB is the prime motivator. Because, you know, quarterbacks. But once we accept that anyone can be a motivator, and that there is no possibility of knowing who motivated whom, there's simply no point to trying to assign "extra credit" for motivation. Unless we start from the premise of "because, you know, quarterbacks", motivational credit gets assigned to everyone, either linearly like participation trophies or in proportion to how good each player is; either way we arrive at exactly the same place we started.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
i was too when you mentioned the waterboy in the same sentence as Tom Brady when it comes to motivational impact, but after i recovered consciousness i had to speak
here's an excerpt from an article i read recently -- two Tampa d-backs discussing Brady
but i'm sure these guys would derive the same amount of motivation from any other player.........or coach.......or waterboy.........or Jameis Winston...........or Bigfoot
@galaxy27 said:
here's an excerpt from an article i read recently -- two Tampa d-backs discussing Brady
but i'm sure these guys would derive the same amount of motivation from any other player.........or coach.......or waterboy.........or Jameis Winston...........or Bigfoot
On a team this talented, a 28 turnover reduction was going to have a massive impact. They went 8-8 last year and gave away 4-6 of 8 games lost in 2019.
Tom Brady is a smart guy - he left a team that was falling apart for a team that had just about everything set except a competent quarterback. Brady is considerably better than competent but I don’t even know if he needed to be.
Bill Bellichek is also a smart guy - had the roles been reversed, the equivalent would have been him going to an excellent team with a boob for a head coach.
As for ‘making players better’, this is not quantifiable so it’s no surprise to me that @dallasactuary would ignore it and/or mock it. However, let’s look at the testimony from ancillary great players that were tangent to greater players - McHale on Bird, Pippin on Jordan, A-Rod on Jeter, Miss on Brady, et al.
In all cases, these were HOF caliber players who described the all out desire to win as something that was hard to ignore. When the best player on the team is also the hardest worker, willing to sacrifice their body for an extra possession or out or yard, it makes you check yourself - am I giving my all?
@dallasactuary - You said ‘if you think professional athletes aren’t giving there all every play...”
Come on, here. Are you kidding me? Randy Moss walks off the field, guys take plays off ALL THE TIME! And yes, great players hold other players accountable- it’s part of the gig. Anyone who watched The Last Dance saw that Michael Jordan was kind of an ******* most days to just about everyone in an effort to keep everyone honest and working the whole time.
Waterboys can’t act like that.
Steve Kerr can’t act like that.
Phil Jackson can’t act like that.
Now, that’s just one example - let’s not pretend that that quality and those players aren’t doing something more than just supplying elite statistics to the team. It is more that that.
Much, much more.
Happens in every sport, teammates and coaches testify to it all the time.
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@galaxy27 said:
here's an excerpt from an article i read recently -- two Tampa d-backs discussing Brady
but i'm sure these guys would derive the same amount of motivation from any other player.........or coach.......or waterboy.........or Jameis Winston...........or Bigfoot
i was too when you mentioned the waterboy in the same sentence as Tom Brady when it comes to motivational impact, but after i recovered consciousness i had to speak
To be fair, one did lead his team to a Bourbon Bowl victory. Just his presence alone at halftime raised the level of play of the entire team. It gave them hope for victory. They knew they now had a chance.
i was too when you mentioned the waterboy in the same sentence as Tom Brady when it comes to motivational impact, but after i recovered consciousness i had to speak
To be fair, one did lead his team to a Bourbon Bowl victory. Just his presence alone at halftime raised the level of play of the entire team. It gave them hope for victory. They knew they now had a chance.
That’s some high quality H2O!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
in the 12 seasons prior to TB's arrival in Tampa, the Bucs had participated in a grand total of zero playoff games. 3 winning seasons out of 12. then the most accomplished QB in the history of the game rolls into town and 14-5 and a trip to the SB happens.
the unwillingness to acknowledge the synergistic effect beyond the norm that Brady creates is mind-obliterating to me
@galaxy27 said:
in the 12 seasons prior to TB's arrival in Tampa, the Bucs had participated in a grand total of zero playoff games. 3 winning seasons out of 12. then the most accomplished QB in the history of the game rolls into town and 14-5 and a trip to the SB happens.
the unwillingness to acknowledge the synergistic effect beyond the norm that Brady creates is mind-obliterating to me
Math stats explain everything .
Nobody ever gets up for a game or quits . There is no such thing as a soft player or a leader , no one ever missed a shot because they choked either .
On a team this talented, a 28 turnover reduction was going to have a massive impact. They went 8-8 last year and gave away 4-6 of 8 games lost in 2019.
Tom Brady is a smart guy - he left a team that was falling apart for a team that had just about everything set except a competent quarterback. Brady is considerably better than competent but I don’t even know if he needed to be.
All, and I do mean all, of the available evidence is consistent with this analysis. The improvement at the QB position explains everything. I am not arguing, and have never argued, that Tom Brady was anything other than an excellent QB, and as good a candidate for GOAT as anyone at any position. Adding THAT to your lineup makes a big difference, and adding that to your lineup to replace a QB who was the worst player on your team makes a HUGE difference. Replacing Winston with Brady is the reason that TB is going to the Super Bowl.
What I am arguing is that you don't need to rob the other players on TB of the credit they have earned and give it to Brady because, you know, quarterbacks. Doing that to a defensive player is LOL funny, and nobody could possibly take it seriously, but doing it to the players on offense is as mean as it is wrong. There is zero evidence that these players weren't just as good last year as they are this year; zero. But football is a team game and no player (on offense, don't make laugh again by bringing up the defense) is going to look good catching passes that never arrive, or running with a ball that the QB fumbled before he handed it to you (or blocking for these receivers and backs). Brady is good enough that he really doesn't need middle age fanboys to pump him up further with the power of their collective fantasies. Give Brady the credit he deserves, and stop stealing deserved credit from everyone else to give Brady even more. Stealing is a sin; so, speaking in the language of His disciples, WWBD?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@dallasactuary I’m the biggest Brady homer here probably and as much as I want to stick my nose up at what you been saying I actually completely understand your point. I really do. Obviously I believe the Bucs success is absolutely due to Brady but I do admit the team was prepped for a solid run at it they literally just needed a great QB to put it all together, I’m not at all thinking he would have led the Jets to the Super Bowl so I get your point.
On a team this talented, a 28 turnover reduction was going to have a massive impact. They went 8-8 last year and gave away 4-6 of 8 games lost in 2019.
Tom Brady is a smart guy - he left a team that was falling apart for a team that had just about everything set except a competent quarterback. Brady is considerably better than competent but I don’t even know if he needed to be.
All, and I do mean all, of the available evidence is consistent with this analysis. The improvement at the QB position explains everything. I am not arguing, and have never argued, that Tom Brady was anything other than an excellent QB, and as good a candidate for GOAT as anyone at any position. Adding THAT to your lineup makes a big difference, and adding that to your lineup to replace a QB who was the worst player on your team makes a HUGE difference. Replacing Winston with Brady is the reason that TB is going to the Super Bowl.
What I am arguing is that you don't need to rob the other players on TB of the credit they have earned and give it to Brady because, you know, quarterbacks. Doing that to a defensive player is LOL funny, and nobody could possibly take it seriously, but doing it to the players on offense is as mean as it is wrong. There is zero evidence that these players weren't just as good last year as they are this year; zero. But football is a team game and no player (on offense, don't make laugh again by bringing up the defense) is going to look good catching passes that never arrive, or running with a ball that the QB fumbled before he handed it to you (or blocking for these receivers and backs). Brady is good enough that he really doesn't need middle age fanboys to pump him up further with the power of their collective fantasies. Give Brady the credit he deserves, and stop stealing deserved credit from everyone else to give Brady even more. Stealing is a sin; so, speaking in the language of His disciples, WWBD?
Solid post. Truly.
How many QBs moved Antonio Brown into their house the last two years?
WWBD?
Move Antonio Brown into his home.
But I suppose everybody on Tampa Bay should share credit for that. Since literally any one of them was capable. I mean, they all have big homes.
But, you know, quarterbacks.
😉
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@perkdog said: @dallasactuary I’m the biggest Brady homer here probably and as much as I want to stick my nose up at what you been saying I actually completely understand your point. I really do. Obviously I believe the Bucs success is absolutely due to Brady but I do admit the team was prepped for a solid run at it they literally just needed a great QB to put it all together, I’m not at all thinking he would have led the Jets to the Super Bowl so I get your point.
You do get my point, so thank you.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@perkdog said: @dallasactuary I’m the biggest Brady homer here probably and as much as I want to stick my nose up at what you been saying I actually completely understand your point. I really do. Obviously I believe the Bucs success is absolutely due to Brady but I do admit the team was prepped for a solid run at it they literally just needed a great QB to put it all together, I’m not at all thinking he would have led the Jets to the Super Bowl so I get your point.
He intentionally chose the right team, where he felt that his influence and contributions would lead to the most success.
@Brick said:
Graham Played in the Championship Game 10 times in 10 years. His record is 7-3. If Brady wins he will equal that record.
I think there was only four teams back then Brick ; )
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It’s no longer the patriot way , it’s been the Brady way.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I had to look it up. There were 13 teams when the Browns entered the League. Certainly the Bucs had more teams to overcome. Certainly the talent wasn't spread as thin as it is today. Only the Conference winners played for the Championship. Today a wild card team can be the Champs. How many Championships did Brady win when his team was not the Conference Champion? In all honesty it is difficult to rate players from different eras. When the Browns entered the NFL they were expected to discover they couldn't play with the "Big boys." Surprise. They won the Championship their first year. BTW I have to admit my admiration for Graham is all the excitement about him, similar to the admiration Brady gets today. As far as my comparing the two because I saw both play, Graham retired when I just turned 8 years old.
@Brick said:
I had to look it up. There were 13 teams when the Browns entered the League. Certainly the Bucs had more teams to overcome. Certainly the talent wasn't spread as thin as it is today. Only the Conference winners played for the Championship. Today a wild card team can be the Champs. How many Championships did Brady win when his team was not the Conference Champion? In all honesty it is difficult to rate players from different eras. When the Browns entered the NFL they were expected to discover they couldn't play with the "Big boys." Surprise. They won the Championship their first year. BTW I have to admit my admiration for Graham is all the excitement about him, similar to the admiration Brady gets today. As far as my comparing the two because I saw both play, Graham retired when I just turned 8 years old.
You just don't get it. When Graham played the opponents were all under 5'8" tall, weak and slow. Most of them had IQ's below the double digits.
Brady, on the other hand has won these SB's with no help from his team mates, against players that were all 300 pounds, 6'5" tall and ran a 4,0 forty yard dash.
ONLY BRADY can be considered for GOAT! No other football player in the history of the game even is in the conversation.
The guy is godlike, he's the PERFECT football player.
case closed.
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Comments
"Absent a shred of evidence that Brady deserves more credit than the long snapper, why wouldn't you also laugh at what Bronco said?"
The QB deserves more credit than the long snapper since he happens to be on the field for waaaaaaaay more plays in any game. I get your argument but that statement is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure you don't get my argument. I'm not saying that the long snapper gets more credit for winning or losing a game than the QB, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying the long snapper, or the waterboy, or a coach, or a QB, or literally any living person on the team or on the sideline, gets the same credit for "elevating the play" of that team's defense absent a shred of evidence that the QB was the one doing the elevating, or that said defensive play was even elevated by anyone at all. And, more to your point, the fact that Brady is out on the field whenever the defense is on the sideline, makes it pretty much impossible for him to inspire anyone on the defense. The long snapper can talk to the defense, slap their backs, give 'em the ol' Knute Rockne treatment if he wants to and the D is willing to listen.
Since there is, in absolute fact, not a shred of evidence that Brady should be getting defensive elevation credit, one has to either laugh or cry at the poor souls who want to give him that credit. I choose to laugh, but I first had to suppress my initial impulse to weep. You want to talk about ridiculous, how about choosing Tom Brady as your personal Lord and savior? Look at that interception! Thank Brady, we've won the game! It's a miracle!!!
I get the point you are making. I am no Brady lover and I agree that the QB often gets more credit or blame many times for a win or loss. However, the coaching staff and many players have stated on the record that Brady has made a significant positive impact on the team as a whole. Much of this influence likely transpires during game prep or in the locker room and not necessarily while the game is being played.
I don't know where the "personal Lord and savior" remark comes from but in no way do I view any athlete or human as such. I believe having Brady is more important to Tampa Bay's making it to the Superbowl than you do. And that is fine. I just felt the long snapper comment was a tad out there.
of course a great QB can elevate every player on the defense. what a foolish statement by dallasactuary.
who exactly do you think that defense is playing against all week long in practice? a great QB will certainly elevate the entire defensive unit far far far more than an average one. Do you think it is more impactful to go against Joe Montana all week long in practice or Bobby Herbert?
practicing against the best makes you better. period.
so yes, Tom Brady does elevate his defenses. possibly as much as any other player.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This is the point where these two different sides are at loggerheads. 😂
And I believe that the coaching staff and some of the players have said this. Brady has no doubt had a positive impact on his teams; he's a great QB. What I want to hear is a player on the defense say "Yeah, I got the {interception/tackle/sack} that ended the game, but Tom Brady is the one who deserves the credit. I'm not a very good football player, I just feed off the elevating impact of Tom."
Got a quote like that? Of course you don't, because it never happened. But the armchair "fans" - the ones who deep down don't really understand what football is - ARE saying that. "The {DB/LB/DE} isn't really very good, it's just Tom Brady making him look good." In addition to betraying a deep and abiding ignorance of football, statements like that infantilize the other players on the team, and deny them the credit that they've earned every bit as much as Tom Brady has earned his credit.
And yes, reasonable people can disagree about how much credit to give Brady for TB making the Super Bowl. But reasonable people will confine their argument to the improvement in TB's offense. Once you give Brady credit for the increased number of interceptions made by the defense you aren't arguing football anymore, you're preaching your religion. And I'm going to laugh at you the same as I'd laugh at someone who worships his sofa.
@dallasactuary Your last sentence is very telling. I honestly didn't think that you felt as though those who don't agree with you are actually mentally disabled. I'm being serious. It sounds belittling. If I'm taking this wrong, please correct me and I apologize in advance.
Dallas- I bet this comment has been made more than once by a player on New England's
defensive unit to the rest of the defense with just a few minutes left in the game.
"Hey we're down 3 points, let's get a stop here for our offense and give the ball to the best QB in the game."
I figure knowing that if they make a stop they have a pretty decent chance to win may give them a boost.
But with a mediocre QB they're probably not that pumped about their chances.
Therefore in a situation like that Brady is elevating the defense just with his reputation alone.
you don't think practicing against a great QB elevates the play of the defense? If you don't, you are sadly mistaken.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If it is your belief that the people who play defense are unprofessional and don't try to play their best on every down then so be it. If you think they don't care whether they look bad no matter what that means for their future when their contracts are up, so be it. If you think they will give 100% to make a stop when their QB gives the team an 80% chance of coming back, but not when a lesser QB will only give them a 60% chance, then so be it. There are your religious beliefs and you are entitled to them. What I know for sure is that you don't have a shred of evidence to support any of these beliefs. That's why they call it "faith". May Brady bless you.
I've only played football at the high school level, but at least at that level I know that hitting the QB in practice will result in the coach chewing you a new orifice. If the QB is Tom Brady I suspect the result is two new orifices. In practice, every QB is great because he knows he can do whatever he wants to do and he'll never get hurt. For the linemen's benefit I'm sure TB has practices where they get to go 100%; Tom Brady is not the QB in those practices, I guarantee it.
I'm sure practicing against an NFL QB will elevate the defense's play a whole lot more than practicing against Uncle Rico. But it's practice, and I don't think it matters at all which NFL QB is standing there in his bubble o' protection throwing the ball.
Let's just drop the hostile part of this debate. Some of us believe one way, others another.
However, I will state for the record, motivation (albeit intangible) is real. And, some people have the gift to motivate those around them (e.g., Joe Montana), others do not (e.g., Jeff George). I believe Brady has it. I played competitive sports beyond HS and witnessed this (i.e., baseball for me). I played 3B alongside Mike Gundy in HS and he had it. I believe that he actually could motivate his teammates including pitchers to believe in themselves and us IMHO. Call it faith, belief, intangibles, "religion" or whatever. It exists. And BELIEF is more than half the battle in all sports. Without it, there is no winning. Attitude counts and even moreso for a QB. I do agree with you that too much credit is often given certain positions like QB but that is also why they are paid the big money.
in the NFL, practice and preparation is the name of the game. some QBs are impossible to duplicate and thus are invaluable for a teams defense to practice against. Mohomes is one, Rodgers is one. So is Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I don’t think anyone believes Brady or any QB elevates any defense in a literal sense. There are good motivators or “Leaders” that play QB, basically a guy who teammates want to play hard for. That counts for something but not when it sets the bar on a QB’s rating Ofcourse. As far as Brady elevating players on offense it’s absolutely absurd to think otherwise, Wes Welker’s play vastly improved after he left Miami and came to New England, and that was a direct result of Brady. Julian Edelman probably would have been out of the NFL after his first few years in the league had it not been for Brady.
Looks like Stafford isn’t a believer in Belichick and his god complex https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/turns-out-matthew-stafford-coming-foxboro-was-never-going-happen
You lost me here. Why does practicing against Brady help a defense defend against other QBs, who are "impossible to duplicate". I can see how practicing against Brady for years would help an individual defender defend against Brady if one of them got traded, but I don't see how it helps that defender defend against Lamar Jackson.
Absolutely true. It's a team game; Brady elevates the play of those he's playing with, and those payers elevate Brady's play. At least, that's how it worked on NE for years and that's how it's supposed to work.
And just in case this is what anyone meant by "elevate the defense", I absolutely agree that a defense will play better in a game that is still winnable than in a game when they are losing by 28 with 5 minutes to go. But to play better on defense in a winnable game with one QB than with another QB? That's so absurd, and insulting to the players on defense, I hope nobody actually believes that.
Bad weather plus reuniting with Patricia must have ruled us out.
wrong about everything as usual (including jim rice) , perfect consistency
This is hot off the press lol https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/danny-amendola-slams-bill-belichick-154226382.html
i won't go so far to say that Tom Brady is the primary reason behind a Bucs defender making plays when he otherwise wouldn't, but motivation being a real thing is incontrovertible.
the best current example i can come up with is JJ Watt. he is much closer to his finish line than his starting point in the NFL.
the only team he has ever played for is crumbling right before his very eyes -- they had a hc/gm who single-handedly ran the team into the ground by giving away the best player for pennies on the dollar, and also pulled slick moves like trading away two firsts and a second for an LT who provides a $20 million cap hit per season. the net result of the BOB experiment is a strapped team devoid of high draft picks in next year's draft and now virtually devoid of talent outside of the QB position. if Watson leaves, the Texans will be completely irrelevant for at least the next 5 years. maybe longer. and on top of that, they just hired a head coach who i honestly had never heard of before.
so if you're JJ Watt and you're faced with the prospects of finishing up an illustrious career with an incompetent franchise like that, what's your mo to give 100% every play? i can promise you it would be humanly impossible for me to do so, no matter how much i got paid. a losing culture would do the trick, sooner or later.
now imagine a scenario where he get a new lease on life and goes to, say, an organization like the Pittsburgh Steelers. think his level of effort might be a tinge higher if he was busting out of his 3-point stance with his brother not far away? with a team that regularly makes the playoffs? the correct answer is yes. and could that conceivably result in higher productivity on the field? also yes.
i think it's human nature to drive harder when the carrot is actually visible, and an improvement in players/teams can certainly bring it into view.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Yes, motivation is a real thing (as are multi-million $ contracts). Now, provide me something, anything, a shred of anything, that indicates Tom Brady, or any QB, is more responsible for said motivation than any other player, coach, or waterboy on any team. Then provide be something, anything, a shred of anything, that tells you that the prospect of earning millions of additional dollars is insufficient motivation, but a somewhat elevated chance of winning a football game is what really matters to the defensive tackles.
If the point that keeps being badly misstated is that having a good QB is better for team morale than having a bad QB, then say that and file it away under "obvious stuff". If that is the point, then exactly the same can be said for a good RB, a good WR, a good RG, a good LB, a good CB, and so on through the roster, And, think about it please, all you're doing is giving Brady, or whoever, double credit for being good. And once we've given everyone on a good team double credit for being good, because we have nothing but our own fantasies to decide which player was the more motivational, we're right back where we started before we gave any motivational credit at all.
This is beyond silly, and I'd be surprised if there really is anyone who doesn't see why. Bronco clearly sees how silly it all is, which is why we said I'm wrong without even hinting at a reason why, and then retreated.
I think I grasp what @dallasactuary is saying here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is saying that on game day no defensive player (or any player) specifically believes that he is playing better at that given moment because of Tom Brady. I get that and can agree with the idea.
However, I don't believe that is the extent of things. Several former Chargers defenders have told me that they became better players because they faced Lance Alworth every day in practice. His talent forced them to try new things to combat him on a regular basis. If they did not improve, then they would be replaced by another player. The challenge of facing a fantastic player every day in practice made them better players on game day. I can only imagine the same could be said about Brady, or any number of excellent players. I think it would be easy to stagnate as a player if you are not challenged on a regular basis. Same goes for most jobs, I think. Though that is not an offer for you all to start posting crazy stuff on here in an effort me make me a better moderator. ;-)
While this may have been the case at one time, does 1st team offense practice against 1st team defense these days? Given current salaries, I would highly doubt it.
@AFLfan I see that, and I agree. But you used a WR as your example, Brady or some other QB gets used in other examples, someone in a post long, long ago in this thread used a coach as an example, and surely a RB, DT, DE, RG, LT, etc. could also be used in other examples. In the end, all that's being said is that good players are good to have around.
But the claim is that good players are even better then we think they are because of this motivational value. A team with only one or two good players is going to lose every game and nobody is going to talk about them (unless it's me talking about Ken Anderson). Teams that win Super Bowls are absolutely loaded with good players and what I'm asking is why are we going to give more motivational credit to the QB than any of the other good players? If we give all the players motivational credit in proportion to how good they are, then we've wasted our time - everyone is still ranked in the same order they were before we started. So some want to give the QB extra credit because, you know, quarterbacks. I've asked, gotten no other answer, and I'm pretty sure "because, you know, quarterbacks" is the only argument out there.
If motivational credit is given based on how good a player is, then it can be ignored; measuring how good a player is without regard to any motivational value will get you the same answers. If motivational credit is being given based on anything else, then something, anything, some shred of anything, needs to be provided to back it up. Something other than "because, you know, quarterbacks", I mean.
easy. the bling on his hands.
the prospects of having a legitimate shot of winning a championship after years of futility is the ultimate motivator. Tom Brady can bring that out; someone like Rob Gronkowski can't. i'm sure adding Gronk was welcomed with open arms, but no Buccaneer who was accustomed to losing is all of a sudden going to ratchet the effort up a few notches due to his acquisition. but the moment the organization moved on from a guy who could throw 6 picks in a game to a guy with 6 rings on his fingers, things got real. i can promise you the level of motivation and effort by Buccaneers players over the course of a 16-game season with Brady at the helm did not mirror the M & E that was on display when Jameis Winston was irrevocably leading them to nowhere.
i can't speak on behalf of bronco, but i think that's where he was going with his comment. and i get it. i might have phrased it differently, but i get it. the motivational impact that Brady has on teammates is something that very few other players in the NFL, if any, can provide. why? because if he gets his hands on every offensive snap for your team, the chance of you standing in line to hoist the Lombardi in a post-SB celebration just increased significantly.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of that. Most of the Patriots teams weren't necessarily loaded with great players. Some combination of a great Belichick system, a handful of key players and others who did their jobs well and/or worked well as a unit were responsible. And I mentioned Alworth only because his is a story I know. But why can't a great defensive lineman rally a defense? Or a great special teams player who gives his all to make tackles excite a team and get them to play better? It seems as though you are saying that inspiration and momentum are non-factors. You cannot scientifically measure either, but I also think you would be hard-pressed to find players who say they don't mean anything.
I. Am. Speechless.
But this doesn't refute my point, it was my point. Of course a defensive lineman can rally a defense. Or a special teams player. Or anyone else. They can all do it, and I'm sure they all try to do it. I'm not saying that inspiration and momentum are non-factors, I'm saying that the only way to reach the conclusion that it is specifically the QB who is the prime motivator is to start from the assumption that the QB is the prime motivator. Because, you know, quarterbacks. But once we accept that anyone can be a motivator, and that there is no possibility of knowing who motivated whom, there's simply no point to trying to assign "extra credit" for motivation. Unless we start from the premise of "because, you know, quarterbacks", motivational credit gets assigned to everyone, either linearly like participation trophies or in proportion to how good each player is; either way we arrive at exactly the same place we started.
i was too when you mentioned the waterboy in the same sentence as Tom Brady when it comes to motivational impact, but after i recovered consciousness i had to speak
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
here's an excerpt from an article i read recently -- two Tampa d-backs discussing Brady
but i'm sure these guys would derive the same amount of motivation from any other player.........or coach.......or waterboy.........or Jameis Winston...........or Bigfoot
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Case Closed
Dear Lord, I hope so. It burns.
Winston - 44 turnovers
Brady - 16 turnovers
On a team this talented, a 28 turnover reduction was going to have a massive impact. They went 8-8 last year and gave away 4-6 of 8 games lost in 2019.
Tom Brady is a smart guy - he left a team that was falling apart for a team that had just about everything set except a competent quarterback. Brady is considerably better than competent but I don’t even know if he needed to be.
Bill Bellichek is also a smart guy - had the roles been reversed, the equivalent would have been him going to an excellent team with a boob for a head coach.
As for ‘making players better’, this is not quantifiable so it’s no surprise to me that @dallasactuary would ignore it and/or mock it. However, let’s look at the testimony from ancillary great players that were tangent to greater players - McHale on Bird, Pippin on Jordan, A-Rod on Jeter, Miss on Brady, et al.
In all cases, these were HOF caliber players who described the all out desire to win as something that was hard to ignore. When the best player on the team is also the hardest worker, willing to sacrifice their body for an extra possession or out or yard, it makes you check yourself - am I giving my all?
@dallasactuary - You said ‘if you think professional athletes aren’t giving there all every play...”
Come on, here. Are you kidding me? Randy Moss walks off the field, guys take plays off ALL THE TIME! And yes, great players hold other players accountable- it’s part of the gig. Anyone who watched The Last Dance saw that Michael Jordan was kind of an ******* most days to just about everyone in an effort to keep everyone honest and working the whole time.
Waterboys can’t act like that.
Steve Kerr can’t act like that.
Phil Jackson can’t act like that.
Now, that’s just one example - let’s not pretend that that quality and those players aren’t doing something more than just supplying elite statistics to the team. It is more that that.
Much, much more.
Happens in every sport, teammates and coaches testify to it all the time.
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Game. Set. Match.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Head coach Bruce Arians would also disagree with Dallas.
“The belief he gave to this organization that it could be done,” Arians said. “It only took one man.”
I am pretty sure he knows the pulse of his team just a bit more than ol' Dallas does. seems he played quite an impact on the entire team.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
To be fair, one did lead his team to a Bourbon Bowl victory. Just his presence alone at halftime raised the level of play of the entire team. It gave them hope for victory. They knew they now had a chance.
That’s some high quality H2O!
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I am hardly a Brady fan, but he did get Tampa Bay to the Superbowl and the Pats....well.
Is he the sole reason...no....but a significant reason.
in the 12 seasons prior to TB's arrival in Tampa, the Bucs had participated in a grand total of zero playoff games. 3 winning seasons out of 12. then the most accomplished QB in the history of the game rolls into town and 14-5 and a trip to the SB happens.
the unwillingness to acknowledge the synergistic effect beyond the norm that Brady creates is mind-obliterating to me
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Math stats explain everything .
Nobody ever gets up for a game or quits . There is no such thing as a soft player or a leader , no one ever missed a shot because they choked either .
Its all x's and o's like a video game
All, and I do mean all, of the available evidence is consistent with this analysis. The improvement at the QB position explains everything. I am not arguing, and have never argued, that Tom Brady was anything other than an excellent QB, and as good a candidate for GOAT as anyone at any position. Adding THAT to your lineup makes a big difference, and adding that to your lineup to replace a QB who was the worst player on your team makes a HUGE difference. Replacing Winston with Brady is the reason that TB is going to the Super Bowl.
What I am arguing is that you don't need to rob the other players on TB of the credit they have earned and give it to Brady because, you know, quarterbacks. Doing that to a defensive player is LOL funny, and nobody could possibly take it seriously, but doing it to the players on offense is as mean as it is wrong. There is zero evidence that these players weren't just as good last year as they are this year; zero. But football is a team game and no player (on offense, don't make laugh again by bringing up the defense) is going to look good catching passes that never arrive, or running with a ball that the QB fumbled before he handed it to you (or blocking for these receivers and backs). Brady is good enough that he really doesn't need middle age fanboys to pump him up further with the power of their collective fantasies. Give Brady the credit he deserves, and stop stealing deserved credit from everyone else to give Brady even more. Stealing is a sin; so, speaking in the language of His disciples, WWBD?
@dallasactuary I’m the biggest Brady homer here probably and as much as I want to stick my nose up at what you been saying I actually completely understand your point. I really do. Obviously I believe the Bucs success is absolutely due to Brady but I do admit the team was prepped for a solid run at it they literally just needed a great QB to put it all together, I’m not at all thinking he would have led the Jets to the Super Bowl so I get your point.
Solid post. Truly.
How many QBs moved Antonio Brown into their house the last two years?
WWBD?
Move Antonio Brown into his home.
But I suppose everybody on Tampa Bay should share credit for that. Since literally any one of them was capable. I mean, they all have big homes.
But, you know, quarterbacks.
😉
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You do get my point, so thank you.
It sometimes gets rather nauseating how much some of you guys worship Tom Brady.
If he was as good as some of you think he would have never lost a preseason, regular season, post season or Super Bowl game.
The guys who played with Montana, Favre, Manning etc, ALL knew they had a chance to make a comeback to win the game with their QB.
Plus the fact that most NFL players are giving 100% on every play because that's what makes them NFL players.
Wait for it...................................except Randy Moss. ;-)
He intentionally chose the right team, where he felt that his influence and contributions would lead to the most success.
With all that said, I predict TB will upset KC in SB - GOAT matters..........
I think there was only four teams back then Brick ; )
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It’s no longer the patriot way , it’s been the Brady way.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I had to look it up. There were 13 teams when the Browns entered the League. Certainly the Bucs had more teams to overcome. Certainly the talent wasn't spread as thin as it is today. Only the Conference winners played for the Championship. Today a wild card team can be the Champs. How many Championships did Brady win when his team was not the Conference Champion? In all honesty it is difficult to rate players from different eras. When the Browns entered the NFL they were expected to discover they couldn't play with the "Big boys." Surprise. They won the Championship their first year. BTW I have to admit my admiration for Graham is all the excitement about him, similar to the admiration Brady gets today. As far as my comparing the two because I saw both play, Graham retired when I just turned 8 years old.
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Ralph
You just don't get it. When Graham played the opponents were all under 5'8" tall, weak and slow. Most of them had IQ's below the double digits.
Brady, on the other hand has won these SB's with no help from his team mates, against players that were all 300 pounds, 6'5" tall and ran a 4,0 forty yard dash.
ONLY BRADY can be considered for GOAT! No other football player in the history of the game even is in the conversation.
The guy is godlike, he's the PERFECT football player.
case closed.