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AU58 Reconsideration for + Grade. Opinions?

amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

After following the poll on would you rather have a 58+, 58 CAC, or MS60 I'm curious about what people think of this situation.

I have a good dealer friend who has been trying to get a beautiful better date AU58 Barber dime to upgrade + only as he has an immediate home for it if he can get the +. He has tried it several times, having conversations with PCGS along the way as to why they will not give it a +. Finally, almost from the horses mouth he was told PCGS would not give it a + if the graders think the coin is MS.

Here are my thoughts as I feel I have experienced this also.

The graders saw the coin having a little wear before, how can that magically disappear?
Even if the graders see the coin as MS now, wouldn't it be better for PCGS's reputation to go ahead and give it the +, knowing it is going to stay in the 58 holder? After all it is superior to the majority of 58's in holders out there now.

Thoughts and opinions?

Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 79,051 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have stopped trying to second guess grading decisions long ago. I do understand your reasoning, but have no idea what reasoning goes into such 'fine line' decisions at the grading process. Cheers, RickO

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If they think the coin is mint state, they should grade it as such, regardless of how they graded it previously.

    And it's not that the wear "magically disappeared". You already know that it can be difficult to distinguish extremely minor wear from strike and other factors that can account for different perceptions of grade.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions

    *Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my own personal opinions.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021 7:31AM

    I can say I've ever seen a mushy strike 58 earn a + in my focal area.

    @MFeld said:
    If they think the coin is mint state, they should grade it as such, regardless of how they graded it previously.

    And it's not that the wear "magically disappeared". You already know that it can be difficult to distinguish extremely minor wear from strike and other factors that can account for different perceptions of grade.

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 4,889 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021 6:12AM

    I am not a fan of chalking up grading costs unless strongly warranted by situation. I don’t see the point for a plus grade for AU58. A coin is either MS or it’s not.

    If you have an AU 58 where you think it’s MS simply specify minimum grade on the form and send in.

    Buy / Sell US & World Coins / Currency
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 39,553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sounds like it may be a candidate for a gold CAC sticker.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    He should quit wasting money on resubmissions.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 17,561 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    After following the poll on would you rather have a 58+, 58 CAC, or MS60 I'm curious about what people think of this situation.

    I have a good dealer friend who has been trying to get a beautiful better date AU58 Barber dime to upgrade + only as he has an immediate home for it if he can get the +. He has tried it several times, having conversations with PCGS along the way as to why they will not give it a +. Finally, almost from the horses mouth he was told PCGS would not give it a + if the graders think the coin is MS.

    He should be able to find an immediate home for it as a really nice AU58, just not the immediate home that will pay 63 money for a label with a + after the 58. It would seem in the dealer's best interest to cut his losses and turn the inventory.

    Here are my thoughts as I feel I have experienced this also.

    The graders saw the coin having a little wear before, how can that magically disappear?
    Even if the graders see the coin as MS now, wouldn't it be better for PCGS's reputation to go ahead and give it the +, knowing it is going to stay in the 58 holder? After all it is superior to the majority of 58's in holders out there now.

    If the coin was sent for a "+ only" reconsideration and the graders that saw it couldn't spot the wear, why should they give it a 58+, and how would giving out another wrong grade improve their reputation?

  • WaterSportWaterSport Posts: 6,077 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021 6:58AM

    Pluses - Shmuses. It seems like a ridiculous pursuit to me. This is not only something NOT handed out often, but I am still in the belief it is actually a very reserved grading determination to take only the absolute best coin for the grade -and give it a bump. If you all recall it was started back in the David Hall days and it was done to stop the whining going on between top sets owners who had a point difference between them and since many had sent their better coins (if not all of them) in for regrade once (if not twice) it was a way to break the log jam. At least thats my interpretation of it. So thinking now that every average circulated coin deserves a plus - good luck with that.

    WS

    Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WaterSport said:
    Pluses - Shmuses. It seems like a ridiculous pursuit to me. This is not only something NOT handed out often, but I am still in the belief it is actually a very reserved grading determination to take only the absolute best coin for the grade -and give it a bump. If you all recall it was started back in the David Hall days and it was done to stop the whining going on between top sets owners who had a point difference between them and since many had sent their better coins (if not all of them) in for regrade once (if not twice) it was a way to break the log jam. At least thats my interpretation of it. So thinking now that every average circulated coin deserves a plus - good luck with that.

    WS

    No one said anything resembling "every circulated coin deserves a plus".

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions

    *Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my own personal opinions.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Be interesting when other Everyman Registry set players chime in! All we seem to have so far are the naysayers! ;)

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 6,676 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sounds like your friend has a customer that is a registry participant and wants the max points, given what you have written it seems the best choice is to turn the coin as it is. Or send it in one last time and get the MS grade and then sell it, grades are just an opinion and you can never force an opinion.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Because it would be less under graded and in a holder with more merit as shown by the poll! :p

    @messydesk said:
    If the coin was sent for a "+ only" reconsideration and the graders that saw it couldn't spot the wear, why should they give it a 58+, and how would giving out another wrong grade improve their reputation?

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:

    The graders saw the coin having a little wear before, how can that magically disappear?

    That's market grading for you. :D

  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:
    Sounds like your friend has a customer that is a registry participant and wants the max points, given what you have written it seems the best choice is to turn the coin as it is. Or send it in one last time and get the MS grade and then sell it, grades are just an opinion and you can never force an opinion.

    I can see the case for selling as-is but it is hard knowing there is a potential windfall for the plus.
    As far as getting the MS grade, that could turn out worse. If it's in the 60-62 range, the sale price could be lower than if it remained in a 58 holder.

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,198 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021 8:21AM

    If the coin is already graded 58 and it is submitted for a "plus-only reconsideration" then graders are prohibited from grading it MS even if merited. It either gets the plus or stays 58.

    Plus grading was pitched by PCGS in March 2010 (and soon thereafter by NGC) as a way of adding value to the market. Of course there were great TPG business opportunities through regrades, crackouts, etc. There was the CAC factor too. Probably other reasons. But I don't believe it was intended to stop whining among top registry owners. Nothing could do that.
    Lance.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 17,561 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    The whole debate is silly. You either like the coin or you don’t. You think the price is fair or isn’t. Whatever some body’s opinion is on a grading number has weight, but it’s not the sole determining factor.

    Arguing that much over a “+” is silly. If the customer is that exacting, frankly I would lose patience with him or her after a while. Some customers are just not worth the time and expense.

    Yup. In this case, offer it to the customer at a premium and let them deal with trying for the plus grade they want. Spending grading fees and months of time and hassle to place something immediately seems not to make sense.

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One could infer (from the choices offered in your poll) that the 58+ failed CAC and so I would prefer the straight 58 with the CAC bean.

    (and yes, I know that CAC doesn't take into consideration pluses)

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 6,676 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @coinbuf said:
    Sounds like your friend has a customer that is a registry participant and wants the max points, given what you have written it seems the best choice is to turn the coin as it is. Or send it in one last time and get the MS grade and then sell it, grades are just an opinion and you can never force an opinion.

    I can see the case for selling as-is but it is hard knowing there is a potential windfall for the plus.
    As far as getting the MS grade, that could turn out worse. If it's in the 60-62 range, the sale price could be lower than if it remained in a 58 holder.

    I get that, but at some point he has to decide how much of his time and effort to invest in this. It sounds like PCGS has made it clear that the + is not going to happen, and if the coin is that nice it is very possible that it could grade higher than MS62. Its a gamble for sure but at this point why not see where the ceiling is today, or sell it as is and move on.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @coinbuf said:
    Sounds like your friend has a customer that is a registry participant and wants the max points, given what you have written it seems the best choice is to turn the coin as it is. Or send it in one last time and get the MS grade and then sell it, grades are just an opinion and you can never force an opinion.

    I can see the case for selling as-is but it is hard knowing there is a potential windfall for the plus.
    As far as getting the MS grade, that could turn out worse. If it's in the 60-62 range, the sale price could be lower than if it remained in a 58 holder.

    I get that, but at some point he has to decide how much of his time and effort to invest in this. It sounds like PCGS has made it clear that the + is not going to happen, and if the coin is that nice it is very possible that it could grade higher than MS62. Its a gamble for sure but at this point why not see where the ceiling is today, or sell it as is and move on.

    You make a valid point (and selling it would be my recommendation too) but there are dealers (we have all seen them) that hold out for the max regardless if it's the right decision.

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 9,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2021 9:25AM

    Being that graders are human, and opinions can vary, tone, especially pleasant, colorful tone, could bump to a plus or a higher grade since it could hide or distract the wear or strike weakness from the grader. Its probably not likely that the tone could change over a short period of time between reconsideration submissions, without being considered suspect.

    I wonder if another opinion (CAC) would/could sway the reconsideration submission? That would be funny since I believe that I read here that CAC does not take "+" into consideration for their opinion.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_

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  • goldengolden Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think I know who you are talking about.

  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 6,800 ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't bother with this. But if it was a coin like a Capped Bust Half, it might warrant a second look as it is an open collar strike that usually wasn't fully struck, and the MS 58 - MS 62 grade range is imo, all over the place. I've seen some MS 63s of this series that I thought were AU 58s, but that's just me.

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  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is very rare, I do believe, that a regraded AU58 coin would go into a MS60 holder...or even a MS62.
    I think most, if deemed, subsequently, to be MS, would be at least MS63 if not better.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    On the flip side I have cracked a 61 and a 62 and got them in 58 holders...no plus though.

    @Bochiman said:
    It is very rare, I do believe, that a regraded AU58 coin would go into a MS60 holder...or even a MS62.
    I think most, if deemed, subsequently, to be MS, would be at least MS63 if not better.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 39,553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    On the flip side I have cracked a 61 and a 62 and got them in 58 holders...no plus though.

    How long did you have to carry them in your pocket before you resubmitted them?

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 8,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I didn't, straight out of the slab to PCGS.

    @PerryHall said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    On the flip side I have cracked a 61 and a 62 and got them in 58 holders...no plus though.

    How long did you have to carry them in your pocket before you resubmitted them?

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