This is the first counterfeit slab with CAC sticker I have seen
davewesen
Posts: 6,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have seen fake slabs before, but this is the first time I have seen one with a CAC sticker
https://ebay.com/itm/1941-Walking-liberty-half-dollar-PCGS-MS68-CAC/363235259966
7
Comments
Maybe CAC is indicating that this is one of the better counterfeit slabs out there
The cert number matches a legit 68 Walker but it does not show up in CAC.
Cant the CAC stickers be fake too?
the sale at Heritage shows the legit slab/coin
https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1239-5536.s
yes, that is what I meant - fake CAC sticker
I rarely see stickers that crooked.
In fact, I've often wondered how they get them so straight.
It does look kinda real.
Maybe they plucked and transplanted it?
My Saint Set
They are getting much better at faking the labels. Overall, the lettering looks good, except that it just isn't bold enough. The font appears right, but it should be a little heavier. The same applies to the bar code. It's got the correct sequence, but the spacing and thickness of the bars are light, especially the fat bars...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
This crap scares the hell out of new buyers like me! I would have trusted that no one could counterfeit or take the time to on cases let alone stickers. Makes buying one a lot more expensive to buy with added time/money to check if its real or not. I never bothered to check case number when buying. I will now though. Ty OP Good eye.
I contacted a little birdy and he thinks eBay will be taking action soon.
Edited to add: I see that he was correct.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Wow, this just popped up in my saved searches, added to my watchlist to research later. I thought immediately something looked off, the seller being in Hungary set off warning alarms too.
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So is the coin real but just a lower grade they put into a fake slab? Or is the coin fake too?
From what I could see, the coin looked genuine and quite nice, but the pictures weren’t the best.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To paraphrase another forum member: this is yet another reason I don’t collect coins that lose 95%+ of their value out of the holder like top pops / moderns
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Always do a certificate lookup on PCGS before bidding/buying, and on CAC if the coin is stickered.
As this type of fraud becomes more sophisticated, PCGS Gold Shield and TrueView become more important. Personally I am more comfortable buying when a coin is slabbed with that service, especially if it is a higher value and/or frequently counterfeited coin.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
What happens when the fake stickers spread to not so big ticket coins? Is this isolated incidence?
Never been a fan of ultra condition rarity common coins. For investment grade MS64 is just fine.
I seem to recall reading that CAC didn’t register a trademark for their sticker. I don’t know if that’s true but if not then that would be an interesting twist. After all, someone could claim its “Charles’ Acceptance Criteria” (or similar) and it happens to use a similar sticker. I’m actually surprised that other CAC acronyms haven’t been used as stickers yet.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
would have liked to see the reverse of the coin and holder
Kennedys are my quest...
Not sure this is true, but here is an earlier thread here
Spilling the beans (pun intended). It's interesting to note that Certified Acceptance Corporation (CAC) has no trademark protection on their "stylized CAC sticker" nor company name after reviewing the Trademark Electronic Search System (TESS) on 10/10/2020. I'm not advocating that someone actually replicate the "stylized CAC sticker". However, the CAC hologram sticker does not match their CAC registered trademark (uses standard character mark) and is open to challenge from unscrupulous individuals.
_Disclosure: I am not a trademark lawyer. I just have experience in obtaining a trademark that is placed in an oval hologram sticker that fits on an NGC slab. _
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1045187/the-importance-of-stickers-cannot-be-overstated
G & S (as mentioned in the TESS) stands for goods and services. The "stylized CAC hologram sticker" is a service mark. CAC provides a service (and not goods).
The company that makes the CAC hologram sticker will require evidence (trademark certificate or other documentation) that they own the trademark/servicemark before they manufacture (from my experience with a US hologram manufacturer).
The CAC hologram sticker should also follow the USPTO guidelines by placing a service mark symbol ℠ or ( SM ) or
Service mark placement near the stylized CAC (example is the Circle R seen in the McDonald's logo) to indicated its an USPTO registered service mark
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Thanks for sharing!
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In this case PCGS shows 4,581 in MS64 with a retail value of $62. And just 31 in MS68 with a value of $5750.
Or condition rarity classics like shown here.
It seems like all years of US coins are being counterfeited.
That's scary, the lettering is just a touch off on the barcode and it's crooked a bit. Also the sticker does not look like a real one.
This holder/sticker is real. The holder was cracked open and resealed. Note the fractures in the plastic all around the perimeter.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The Chinese should be good with the plastic slabs since they are made in China. Just grab some overruns like they do with iPhones.
So the person that bought the real one at Heritage replaced it with lesser quality one and tried to resell it?
this was my first thought.
now is expressed a weakness in the sticker game. how do you tie any green bean to any coin when the slabs may be "professionally" opened and then resealed? i won't comment further to not give any scammers reading and good tips.
i'm sure the big wigs have discussed many scenarios like this.
are we absolutely certain this isn't the heritiage coin sent in for conservation with the same cert?
ok. i'll try again tomorrow. 2 am here. ugh.
Sometimes - eff people. This is why I literally go out of my way to effing fuck crooks up in court. If your are good enough to fake it - just do it for real.
No, labels are very close but different -
I don't see anything that rules out poor photography accounting for the differences. The spacing is correct, the positioning is correct.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Look at the bar codes; particularly the "fat" bars, as someone mentioned. They are unmistakably different.
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Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
fonts/sizes and spacings/alignments
compare location of 8 and 0 below
compare size of bar codes below 66
I am not sure if digital photography could account for these differences
After reading the entire thread, it would appear that -
a) The slab has been opened
b) The label is fake
c) The coin is not the one in the Heritage auction
Is this an accurate summation?? Cheers, RickO
I'm not so sure personally. I still think it is due to the images.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Bottom line: If CAC doesn't show the coin in their database, that's it. Counterfeit sticker. If a counterfeit sticker, it leads one to believe the insert is a counterfeit too.
No way was that shell authentic and 'broken' into. Have you cracked these recent slabs? No way they retain their integrity as they splinter and shatter now. No, it IS a counterfeit slab, inserts, and sticker. Only the coin is genuine (it looks like it's MS64/65 quality).
has anyone scanned the barcodes. just for posterity i ask.
put me in the camp those inserts are not the same. dont make me do an overlay of inserts people !!!!
what blows my mind of the whole thing is that coin doens't look fake to me, at all.
It's probably a genuine nice, bright MS66 inserted into a fake or cracked and resealed slab with a fake insert. You can't tell if the coin is MS65 or MS69 with a picture like that.
This post is making me think of lunch!
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We have already seen really good slabs coming out of China.
The inserts are getting better & better.
The sticker would probably be the easiest thing to reproduce.
Once they have all 3, they only have to pick a winning number. (that triggers the PCGS cert & CAC verification)
Oh-yea...And put some coin in there that is close.
Still can't beat a TrueView.
My Saint Set
When I opened this thread and viewed the image of the slab with its sticker, I immediately thought, " What's wrong with this slab? Looks good to me."
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Fat vs skinny isn't a very good diagnostic for a fake. Rather, it's a function of the print density the printer is producing at the time the label is printed, and this varies on real labels.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Our hosts need to also produce a mug shot of the coin in the slab. The overhead of a TrueView isn't necessary for something that can be used to verify the coin slab belong together. They should do this before the next time they redesign the label so that it'll be well-known that a particular label type can always be visually verified.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
That's a scary good fake. Jeez! Know what you are buying!
overruns from China???
oh yes...huge business. I had a product made there years ago. I had registered TM's for Canada and the US,,,
guess what? the overrun was in the 10s thousands. they dumped these on the market in Europe at 1/4 of the prices.
TM's are tricky to enforce as they only cover the products you have originally applied for and.... u need the required $$$$$ to defend your TM in case of an infringement.
Foreign country should be a dead giveaway as fraud is much harder to interdict though there have been some quality US coins coming out of Europe once in a while. A friend told me that Romania is the #1 country for internet based fraud now.
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i'm confident they've discussed these things at length but i agree with you and will say for the future of their brand and market confidence, something like this will need to be inevitable. ngc has been WAY ahead of this curve but what i don't understand is how their images can be so low res. unless that has changed in the past couple/few years as i don't really look at those images often.
Quite possible. A respected member here posted a few years back how it could be done, but it seemed to fly over everyones' heads. And thus it shall stay.
Or it may have been photoshopped.
ROFL. So what’s your point lol. Somebody should spend $5750 when they can nicely fill the hole for $62? Common Coin! That $5750 would buy a lot of nice coins especially low pop world if not nice slabbed gold. Sell the 68 WLH somebody else.
I recently saw the Malta 1974 20 pounds gold Gozo boat coin PCGS MS65 on eBay for $750. Top Pop 1/0. Now that’s a rare coin. Would rather invest in that.