@CoinscratchFever said: @mfeld By the second time he came over to your table you must have known he was gonna buy it and to hold your ground.
Actually, I didn’t know. But it didn’t matter to me either way, because I’d already quoted my best price.
No offense to Mr. Feld, but it seems like a lot of the cattle a dealer would have would be from not having a fixed "best price" for a coin. I've never been a dealer, and I have a lot of empathy for those who are and have to make a living off of slim margins, but it seems like your "best price" should vary depending on a lot of factors. Like would you ask the same price 15 minutes after the show opens as you would 15 minutes before it closes? Would you hold as firm with a teenager counting the wad of $10 bills in his pocket as with a guy who has a gold credit card?
"Best price" absolutely does vary, depending upon different factors. Among them are how new the coin is, how much it's been offered around, changes in market conditions, the nature of the relationship with the potential buyer, cash flow, whether the buyer will pay immediately, and so on.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I do not care if they have hats, cattle or sheep....Or a total lack thereof....It is the coin I am interested in and then the price....Beyond that, all else is chaff....Cheers, RickO
@MrEureka said:
The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
This leads to a question I really would like to ask. I'm not honestly what people here may call a "serious buyer". I have been working on a nice, but not world class US type set for several years now. If I'm at a major show trying to fill say the SLQ spot in the set, I know I will not have a problem finding a nice example at the show. Actually I may find a lot of them. When I say "I'll think about it". I mean just that. I like the coin. I like the price. There are just thirty other ones I haven't seen yet. Knowing where a dealer is at on a coin can really narrow down the selection processes for someone who is the numismatic equivalent of a beer drinker. It seems to me going back to the dealers that had ones I liked to ask a price to then narrow it done later may be wasting their time since we had already talked. Any suggestion on how I should handle it in the future?
@RWM Seems to me that you'd first find the coin you really, really like after reviewing what's on offer and then enter price negotiations. You should already have an idea of a price range beforehand.
@MrEureka said:
The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
This leads to a question I really would like to ask. I'm not honestly what people here may call a "serious buyer". I have been working on a nice, but not world class US type set for several years now. If I'm at a major show trying to fill say the SLQ spot in the set, I know I will not have a problem finding a nice example at the show. Actually I may find a lot of them. When I say "I'll think about it". I mean just that. I like the coin. I like the price. There are just thirty other ones I haven't seen yet. Knowing where a dealer is at on a coin can really narrow down the selection processes for someone who is the numismatic equivalent of a beer drinker. It seems to me going back to the dealers that had ones I liked to ask a price to then narrow it done later may be wasting their time since we had already talked. Any suggestion on how I should handle it in the future?
Thanks in advance.
I realize you asked Andy, but I'll answer from my perspective, anyway. I think you're handling it just fine. Based on how you characterized yourself in your scenario, many dealers wouldn't consider you to be a "serious buyer", but that's largely bedside the point.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@scubafuel said:
When you offer a coin to a dealer and name a price, and they hold and fondle the coin for a while, then look at their computer and mutter to themselves, then get distracted by something else and put the coin down on the back table while they deal with a buyer who just showed up and wants to chat.
This has happened multiple times at shows and makes me want to flip their table over.
I've had that happen too. I'm just standing there hoping to hear something and it just drags on. What's worse is after you wait all that time and then they say, it's not for them. That's when the table flipping can start.
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MrEureka said:
The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
What is worse (and I have seen this a number of times): the buyer using the seller's stated 'best price' as a tool, to continue haggling with the seller over the price.
The first time a coin dealer quotes a price, how often is that his best price?
Read the post. If the person asks for a “best price,” and the dealer gives a “best price,” and the person counters with a lower price, the person is calling the dealer a liar. Whenever an idiot did that I put the coin back in the case and told him that the marked price is the price to him.
In most cases, I find it more effective to tell people that the price really was my bottom line. Or continue negotiating if it wasn’t.
See this really torks me, if I ask for a best price and then the dealer gives a second lower price once I hand the coin back its game on, I have no intention of buying that coin; or any coin; ever from that jerk but now I just want to waste his time. This is what I call a dick move on the part of the dealer; give me your best price period.
@MFeld said:
Seller has coin for sale. Would-be buyer makes fair offer to seller, who says “I’ll get back to you on that”. Rarely does the seller get back to the person who made the fair offer. But frequently, the seller uses that fair offer to get a little more from someone else. And often, that someone else has initially tried to buy the coin for much less than the would-be buyer offered.
The late Jim O'Donnell would often offer a price, and say the offer was good until the seller left the table. He said that often a seller would get a good offer, then take the coin to every other dealer at the show trying to get an extra $10.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
@edwardjulio said:
Attended the ANA Show a few years ago. Walked up to the table of a well known dealer that does a routine write up in Coin World magazine. Wanted to discuss a possible sale/exchange for bullion as he promotes. I stood quietly as he "surfed" on his phone for approximately five minutes. He quickly glanced at me and continued to act like I was not there. I wanted to flip his table over, but finally walked away. He missed out on a profitable transaction, but that was his choice. Often wonder if he had a flat on the road, would I stop?
Were you wearing the bag? Just saying that might have influenced his response
@MrEureka said:
The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
What is worse (and I have seen this a number of times): the buyer using the seller's stated 'best price' as a tool, to continue haggling with the seller over the price.
The first time a coin dealer quotes a price, how often is that his best price?
Read the post. If the person asks for a “best price,” and the dealer gives a “best price,” and the person counters with a lower price, the person is calling the dealer a liar. Whenever an idiot did that I put the coin back in the case and told him that the marked price is the price to him.
In most cases, I find it more effective to tell people that the price really was my bottom line. Or continue negotiating if it wasn’t.
See this really torks me, if I ask for a best price and then the dealer gives a second lower price once I hand the coin back its game on, I have no intention of buying that coin; or any coin; ever from that jerk but now I just want to waste his time. This is what I call a dick move on the part of the dealer; give me your best price period.
While I don't do things that way as a seller, I can understand why many/most sellers do. Many buyers don't believe a seller when he says he's quoting his best price and will counter, anyway. Knowing this, many sellers leave room for the nearly- inevitable negotiating on the part of the buyer. At this point in our industry (edited to add: and probably in just about all others), it's like the chicken and the egg.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most are used to the car buying practice where back and forth on “best price” is negotiable until paper is signed.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
@MrEureka said:
The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
What is worse (and I have seen this a number of times): the buyer using the seller's stated 'best price' as a tool, to continue haggling with the seller over the price.
The first time a coin dealer quotes a price, how often is that his best price?
Read the post. If the person asks for a “best price,” and the dealer gives a “best price,” and the person counters with a lower price, the person is calling the dealer a liar. Whenever an idiot did that I put the coin back in the case and told him that the marked price is the price to him.
In most cases, I find it more effective to tell people that the price really was my bottom line. Or continue negotiating if it wasn’t.
See this really torks me, if I ask for a best price and then the dealer gives a second lower price once I hand the coin back its game on, I have no intention of buying that coin; or any coin; ever from that jerk but now I just want to waste his time. This is what I call a dick move on the part of the dealer; give me your best price period.
You’re making the mistake of thinking that someone with whom you have had limited or no previous dealings should magically already know how you do business.
And you also misread my earlier reply. I guess we’re on something of a roll! 😉
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
What is worse (and I have seen this a number of times): the buyer using the seller's stated 'best price' as a tool, to continue haggling with the seller over the price.
The first time a coin dealer quotes a price, how often is that his best price?
Read the post. If the person asks for a “best price,” and the dealer gives a “best price,” and the person counters with a lower price, the person is calling the dealer a liar. Whenever an idiot did that I put the coin back in the case and told him that the marked price is the price to him.
In most cases, I find it more effective to tell people that the price really was my bottom line. Or continue negotiating if it wasn’t.
See this really torks me, if I ask for a best price and then the dealer gives a second lower price once I hand the coin back its game on, I have no intention of buying that coin; or any coin; ever from that jerk but now I just want to waste his time. This is what I call a dick move on the part of the dealer; give me your best price period.
I didnt read his statement to be that he claims a price to be his best but it really isn't. I read it as he quotes a price and when asked for a lower number either states "this is my best price", or negotiates further. If he stated previously, this is my best price, he was saying he affirms that instead of "put(ting) the coin back in the case and told him that the marked price is the price to him", as a more effective tactic.
What I have had trouble with is trying to get a quote on some of the lessor known varieties, especially Top Pop. I have received replies such as "There is no market for that" or "I don't have a buyer for that". One thing that I have found true is that there is a buyer for anything...if the price is acceptable to them.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
@MrEureka said:
The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
This leads to a question I really would like to ask. I'm not honestly what people here may call a "serious buyer". I have been working on a nice, but not world class US type set for several years now. If I'm at a major show trying to fill say the SLQ spot in the set, I know I will not have a problem finding a nice example at the show. Actually I may find a lot of them. When I say "I'll think about it". I mean just that. I like the coin. I like the price. There are just thirty other ones I haven't seen yet. Knowing where a dealer is at on a coin can really narrow down the selection processes for someone who is the numismatic equivalent of a beer drinker. It seems to me going back to the dealers that had ones I liked to ask a price to then narrow it done later may be wasting their time since we had already talked. Any suggestion on how I should handle it in the future?
Thanks in advance.
I’d recommend looking at as many coins as possible, asking prices on all of the ones you like, eliminating any coin that’s not in the ballpark, and then buying the one you like best at the best possible price. And if you’re not comfortable with that deal, move on to the next best coin.
Yes, I understand that that approach might not net you the absolutely best overall deal possible, but it will get you the coin you like best at a reasonable price and with the least effort for all concerned. And it might even help you develop some valuable relationships on the bourse floor.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Catbert said:
I always assume that when I ask for a best price, I expect the dealer to tell me his best price. It's then a pass or buy next step.
Call me a rube if you wish since I respect that the dealer says what he means.
What if the dealer doesn't want to give a best price right away? Is there some socially acceptable way for him to say that? I mean you're kinda asking him to negotiate against himself, Rube
@Catbert said:
I always assume that when I ask for a best price, I expect the dealer to tell me his best price. It's then a pass or buy next step.
Call me a rube if you wish since I respect that the dealer says what he means.
What if the dealer doesn't want to give a best price right away? Is there some socially acceptable way for him to say that? I mean you're kinda asking him to negotiate against himself, Rube
Why would a dealer not want to sell his coins and ignore the question?
I'm not saying he should ignore the question, or that he doesn't want to sell his coins. He may just want to sell them for more than the lowest amount he's willing to.
I think a lot of people would benefit from training and experience with negotiation. I know that when I was younger I was uncomfortable with it, especially when selling. I’m more comfortable now and learned the all important trick of recognizing when it’s just not the right deal.
@mothra454 said:
I'm not saying he should ignore the question, or that he doesn't want to sell his coins. He may just want to sell them for more than the lowest amount he's willing to.
So, in answer to my question about his best price, he then quotes a price and, to me, it's still pass or pay. Why is this so hard to understand?
Another bad negotiating tactic is to make an absurd offer in the mistaken belief that a dealer is somehow required to meet you in the middle. To simplify the math let's go back in time and say that Gold Spot is $1,000 and the Melt Price on a generic BU $20 is $967.50 and there is still some premium on common-date gold. You are at a show and you have a coin in your case priced at $1,050 that you could wholesale out at $1,000 to a guy two aisles over that you would probably take $1,025 for retail cash or check. (Taking a credit card costs you a fee.)
Joe DIpdorf offers you $900 for it, well below melt, expecting you to split the difference at $975 or maybe $980. I put the coin back in the case and tell him that the marked price is the price to him.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Another bad negotiating tactic is to make an absurd offer in the mistaken belief that a dealer is somehow required to meet you in the middle. To simplify the math let's go back in time and say that Gold Spot is $1,000 and the Melt Price on a generic BU $20 is $967.50 and there is still some premium on common-date gold. You are at a show and you have a coin in your case priced at $1,050 that you could wholesale out at $1,000 to a guy two aisles over that you would probably take $1,025 for retail cash or check. (Taking a credit card costs you a fee.)
Joe DIpdorf offers you $900 for it, well below melt, expecting you to split the difference at $975 or maybe $980. I put the coin back in the case and tell him that the marked price is the price to him.
Yes, definitely. I've seen this in real estate. A property is priced well, maybe a little wiggle room of a few percent. But a buyer puts in an offer of 30% expecting it is reasonable to "meet in the middle" and get a deal for 15% off.
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Misspelling nickel hardly fits that description. In fact, none of the 5 things in the OP fit that description.
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Misspelling nickel hardly fits that description. In fact, none of the 5 things in the OP fit that description.
I agree, but think it's been a good thread as (edited) it’s evolved.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There is a gentleman from WY on another message board who purports to handle 6 and maybe 7 figure coins, but says that he's never heard of PCGS. I suspect that that's all hat and no cattle.
@edwardjulio said:
Attended the ANA Show a few years ago. Walked up to the table of a well known dealer that does a routine write up in Coin World magazine. Wanted to discuss a possible sale/exchange for bullion as he promotes. I stood quietly as he "surfed" on his phone for approximately five minutes. He quickly glanced at me and continued to act like I was not there. I wanted to flip his table over, but finally walked away. He missed out on a profitable transaction, but that was his choice. Often wonder if he had a flat on the road, would I stop?
That's funny. Just from your story, I know exactly who you are talking about. I haven't done business with him but he does act just the way you have described.
@BAJJERFAN said:
There is a gentleman from WY on another message board who purports to handle 6 and maybe 7 figure coins, but says that he's never heard of PCGS. I suspect that that's all hat and no cattle.
I suspect he has a very long nose too.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@CaptHenway said:
Another bad negotiating tactic is to make an absurd offer in the mistaken belief that a dealer is somehow required to meet you in the middle.
Happens a lot on eBay, and the buyers I've encountered who use the "meet in the middle" line are the ones whose offers are seriously low. Next time I get one, I'm tempted to tell them "Sorry- didn't know you'd want to meet in the middle when I priced the coin. Now that I have your offer, let me tell you my actual retail price and we can split the difference. Deal?"
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Misspelling nickel hardly fits that description. In fact, none of the 5 things in the OP fit that description.
I agree, but think it's been a good thread as its evolved.
I wish I had a nickle for every time someone misuses "its" vs. "it's"...
For me it’s all in the deal could care less about some players style.
I don’t care if somebody describes some as cowboys, hipsters, surfers, or what thinks about their spelling or some other trivial babble. For me its the item and price.
@MFeld said:
When someone asks me for my best price, I give it to them. The problem is, if the person doesn’t know me and how I do business, they don’t believe me. At least, not at first. 😉Here’s a real-life experience...
Many years ago, when I was working for Pinnacle Rarities, we were at a Long Beach show. A dealer stopped at our table and asked me for my best price on one of our coins. I quoted him my best price. He countered. I declined his counter. Over the course of the next day or so, he tried at least three more times to buy the coin for less than my best price. He was unsuccessful each and every time. Finally, he asked me why I wouldn’t budge on the price. I told him something to the effect that “I realize you didn’t know me before now, but when someone asks for my best price, I give it to them.” He bought the coin at my original “best price” and while we didn’t do a lot of business, he didn’t counter my “best price” again. 😉
I am frequently asked my best price which I will gladly give. Sometimes it might be the list price, but whatever comes out of my mouth is the best number. On more than one occasion I've been at a show and have encountered Mark's experience. Politely repeating my best price multiple times and politely declining multiple counteroffers can get aggravating. I once lost my patience and the guy came back to the table for probably the fourth time. When he asked again, I raised it $100.
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Misspelling nickel hardly fits that description. In fact, none of the 5 things in the OP fit that description.
I agree, but think it's been a good thread as its evolved.
I wish I had a nickle for every time someone misuses "its" vs. "it's"...
.....or to, too, and two and their, there, and they're.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I can't believe that there are some (want-to-be) dealers on here that brag about rips and what not. Even if it is off Ebay, If you'll rip off other sellers especially normal people just moving coins, you'll rip off your customers. Even if you see it as open combat, it shows low IQ and morals to brag about it and then to brag about threatening to sue the seller if they backed out of you ripping them off. The type of guy who gets smacked around in real life so they pick on the weak. No respect as a dealer or a man for those types.
@oih82w8 said:
What I have had trouble with is trying to get a quote on some of the lessor known varieties, especially Top Pop. I have received replies such as "There is no market for that" or "I don't have a buyer for that". One thing that I have found true is that there is a buyer for anything...if the price is acceptable to them.
Buying and selling are two very different situations. If the dealer has a coin in stock, it's not committed elsewhere, and you're trying to buy it, it's a given that he is going to try to sell it to you. If you're trying to sell him something, you can't assume that he wants to buy it at a reasonable price. And if he doesn't want to embarrass himself and maybe burn a bridge, he's not going to make a stupidly cheap offer.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think where there is miscommunication between us is regarding the adjective "best". If you ask for a price (not best) then you can counter as you wish (in my view). You can say "will you take X" assuming you are willing to buy it at that price. Or, you could ask "do you have any room in the pricing?" which the dealer can open the door to ask what is your offer.
Of course, before even engaging in pricing, you should have some idea of a range that is acceptable to you. If the coin is especially nice, the dealer will have it priced accordingly and this coin may be outside of your anticipated range.
This is my experience from attending many large shows.
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Misspelling nickel hardly fits that description. In fact, none of the 5 things in the OP fit that description.
I agree, but think it's been a good thread as its evolved.
I wish I had a nickle for every time someone misuses "its" vs. "it's"...
.....or to, too, and two and their, there, and they're.
Or your and you're or even better the way some spell common terms like roughshod as ruffshot. LMAO at that one.
@Catbert said:
I always assume that when I ask for a best price, I expect the dealer to tell me his best price. It's then a pass or buy next step.
Call me a rube if you wish since I respect that the dealer says what he means.
What if the dealer doesn't want to give a best price right away? Is there some socially acceptable way for him to say that? I mean you're kinda asking him to negotiate against himself, Rube
Way too many scenarios to spell it all out, but the short answer is "Yes, always."
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@abcde12345 said:
For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Misspelling nickel hardly fits that description. In fact, none of the 5 things in the OP fit that description.
I agree, but think it's been a good thread as its evolved.
I wish I had a nickle for every time someone misuses "its" vs. "it's"...
Thanks and its (😉) been edited.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
"Best price" absolutely does vary, depending upon different factors. Among them are how new the coin is, how much it's been offered around, changes in market conditions, the nature of the relationship with the potential buyer, cash flow, whether the buyer will pay immediately, and so on.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I do not care if they have hats, cattle or sheep....Or a total lack thereof....It is the coin I am interested in and then the price....Beyond that, all else is chaff....Cheers, RickO
This leads to a question I really would like to ask. I'm not honestly what people here may call a "serious buyer". I have been working on a nice, but not world class US type set for several years now. If I'm at a major show trying to fill say the SLQ spot in the set, I know I will not have a problem finding a nice example at the show. Actually I may find a lot of them. When I say "I'll think about it". I mean just that. I like the coin. I like the price. There are just thirty other ones I haven't seen yet. Knowing where a dealer is at on a coin can really narrow down the selection processes for someone who is the numismatic equivalent of a beer drinker. It seems to me going back to the dealers that had ones I liked to ask a price to then narrow it done later may be wasting their time since we had already talked. Any suggestion on how I should handle it in the future?
Thanks in advance.
@RWM Seems to me that you'd first find the coin you really, really like after reviewing what's on offer and then enter price negotiations. You should already have an idea of a price range beforehand.
I realize you asked Andy, but I'll answer from my perspective, anyway. I think you're handling it just fine. Based on how you characterized yourself in your scenario, many dealers wouldn't consider you to be a "serious buyer", but that's largely bedside the point.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is he wearing a Stetson?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Nothing anyone says (or does) makes me say that. I will admit I find myself often thinking, "there's an ass for every saddle".
I've had that happen too. I'm just standing there hoping to hear something and it just drags on. What's worse is after you wait all that time and then they say, it's not for them. That's when the table flipping can start.
I don't think that all hat and no cattle refers to any of these things. To me it means a coin dealer [or anyone for that matter] who is a million dollar dealer wannabe. I got 10 ms 1893-S Morgans in the safe back home when in reality all he has is a roll of circ 1881-S coins. Just a big blowhard. Has not much to do with his her knowledge, but their inventory, finances and connections. Most of what's being described is better categorized as Ahole.
Likely originated in Tejas.
The phrase equates to "All talk, no action".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
See this really torks me, if I ask for a best price and then the dealer gives a second lower price once I hand the coin back its game on, I have no intention of buying that coin; or any coin; ever from that jerk but now I just want to waste his time. This is what I call a dick move on the part of the dealer; give me your best price period.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The late Jim O'Donnell would often offer a price, and say the offer was good until the seller left the table. He said that often a seller would get a good offer, then take the coin to every other dealer at the show trying to get an extra $10.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Were you wearing the bag? Just saying that might have influenced his response
While I don't do things that way as a seller, I can understand why many/most sellers do. Many buyers don't believe a seller when he says he's quoting his best price and will counter, anyway. Knowing this, many sellers leave room for the nearly- inevitable negotiating on the part of the buyer. At this point in our industry (edited to add: and probably in just about all others), it's like the chicken and the egg.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most are used to the car buying practice where back and forth on “best price” is negotiable until paper is signed.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
You’re making the mistake of thinking that someone with whom you have had limited or no previous dealings should magically already know how you do business.
And you also misread my earlier reply. I guess we’re on something of a roll! 😉
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The phrase All hat and no cattle is an idiom meaning "all talk, no action".
Maybe in certain cases "Ass hat and no cattle" would be more appropriate.
I didnt read his statement to be that he claims a price to be his best but it really isn't. I read it as he quotes a price and when asked for a lower number either states "this is my best price", or negotiates further. If he stated previously, this is my best price, he was saying he affirms that instead of "put(ting) the coin back in the case and told him that the marked price is the price to him", as a more effective tactic.
Latin American Collection
I always assume that when I ask for a best price, I expect the dealer to tell me his best price. It's then a pass or buy next step.
Call me a rube if you wish since I respect that the dealer says what he means.
What I have had trouble with is trying to get a quote on some of the lessor known varieties, especially Top Pop. I have received replies such as "There is no market for that" or "I don't have a buyer for that". One thing that I have found true is that there is a buyer for anything...if the price is acceptable to them.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
I’d recommend looking at as many coins as possible, asking prices on all of the ones you like, eliminating any coin that’s not in the ballpark, and then buying the one you like best at the best possible price. And if you’re not comfortable with that deal, move on to the next best coin.
Yes, I understand that that approach might not net you the absolutely best overall deal possible, but it will get you the coin you like best at a reasonable price and with the least effort for all concerned. And it might even help you develop some valuable relationships on the bourse floor.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What if the dealer doesn't want to give a best price right away? Is there some socially acceptable way for him to say that? I mean you're kinda asking him to negotiate against himself, Rube
Successful BST transactions with: Cameonut, Rob41281
Why would a dealer not want to sell his coins and ignore the question?
I'm not saying he should ignore the question, or that he doesn't want to sell his coins. He may just want to sell them for more than the lowest amount he's willing to.
Successful BST transactions with: Cameonut, Rob41281
I think a lot of people would benefit from training and experience with negotiation. I know that when I was younger I was uncomfortable with it, especially when selling. I’m more comfortable now and learned the all important trick of recognizing when it’s just not the right deal.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
So, in answer to my question about his best price, he then quotes a price and, to me, it's still pass or pay. Why is this so hard to understand?
Another bad negotiating tactic is to make an absurd offer in the mistaken belief that a dealer is somehow required to meet you in the middle. To simplify the math let's go back in time and say that Gold Spot is $1,000 and the Melt Price on a generic BU $20 is $967.50 and there is still some premium on common-date gold. You are at a show and you have a coin in your case priced at $1,050 that you could wholesale out at $1,000 to a guy two aisles over that you would probably take $1,025 for retail cash or check. (Taking a credit card costs you a fee.)
Joe DIpdorf offers you $900 for it, well below melt, expecting you to split the difference at $975 or maybe $980. I put the coin back in the case and tell him that the marked price is the price to him.
Yes, definitely. I've seen this in real estate. A property is priced well, maybe a little wiggle room of a few percent. But a buyer puts in an offer of 30% expecting it is reasonable to "meet in the middle" and get a deal for 15% off.
Misspelling nickel hardly fits that description. In fact, none of the 5 things in the OP fit that description.
I agree, but think it's been a good thread as (edited) it’s evolved.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There is a gentleman from WY on another message board who purports to handle 6 and maybe 7 figure coins, but says that he's never heard of PCGS. I suspect that that's all hat and no cattle.
That's funny. Just from your story, I know exactly who you are talking about. I haven't done business with him but he does act just the way you have described.
When a dealer told me that if a coin is graded by PCGS you have to add $35 to the value of the coin
I suspect he has a very long nose too.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Happens a lot on eBay, and the buyers I've encountered who use the "meet in the middle" line are the ones whose offers are seriously low. Next time I get one, I'm tempted to tell them "Sorry- didn't know you'd want to meet in the middle when I priced the coin. Now that I have your offer, let me tell you my actual retail price and we can split the difference. Deal?"
I wish I had a nickle for every time someone misuses "its" vs. "it's"...
For me it’s all in the deal could care less about some players style.
I don’t care if somebody describes some as cowboys, hipsters, surfers, or what thinks about their spelling or some other trivial babble. For me its the item and price.
I am frequently asked my best price which I will gladly give. Sometimes it might be the list price, but whatever comes out of my mouth is the best number. On more than one occasion I've been at a show and have encountered Mark's experience. Politely repeating my best price multiple times and politely declining multiple counteroffers can get aggravating. I once lost my patience and the guy came back to the table for probably the fourth time. When he asked again, I raised it $100.
.....or to, too, and two and their, there, and they're.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I can't believe that there are some (want-to-be) dealers on here that brag about rips and what not. Even if it is off Ebay, If you'll rip off other sellers especially normal people just moving coins, you'll rip off your customers. Even if you see it as open combat, it shows low IQ and morals to brag about it and then to brag about threatening to sue the seller if they backed out of you ripping them off. The type of guy who gets smacked around in real life so they pick on the weak. No respect as a dealer or a man for those types.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Buying and selling are two very different situations. If the dealer has a coin in stock, it's not committed elsewhere, and you're trying to buy it, it's a given that he is going to try to sell it to you. If you're trying to sell him something, you can't assume that he wants to buy it at a reasonable price. And if he doesn't want to embarrass himself and maybe burn a bridge, he's not going to make a stupidly cheap offer.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@mothra454
I think where there is miscommunication between us is regarding the adjective "best". If you ask for a price (not best) then you can counter as you wish (in my view). You can say "will you take X" assuming you are willing to buy it at that price. Or, you could ask "do you have any room in the pricing?" which the dealer can open the door to ask what is your offer.
Of course, before even engaging in pricing, you should have some idea of a range that is acceptable to you. If the coin is especially nice, the dealer will have it priced accordingly and this coin may be outside of your anticipated range.
This is my experience from attending many large shows.
Or your and you're or even better the way some spell common terms like roughshod as ruffshot. LMAO at that one.
Way too many scenarios to spell it all out, but the short answer is "Yes, always."
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This is a great thread. Very entertaining and thought provoking.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Thanks and its (😉) been edited.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.