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What is it a Dealer or Collector says or does that has you think, "All Hat, No Cattle".
abcde12345
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For me it is when a dealer or collector spells Nickel, "Nickle".
It's when a dealer or collector states in a thread, "AT!" when the coin is naturally toned.
It's when a new collector asks for an opinion. A dealer will offer insight that is logical.
This new collector will then argue needlessly in opposition (when everyone else reading the dealer's opinion knows he is correct).
An example of this is a coin that is post-mint damaged and the new collector believes he has the find of the century and when a seasoned dealer states why this isn't so, will bicker back instead of showing a semblance of gratitude.
Yours?
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One of mine is when “nickel” is spelled “Nickel”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Or Penny (MFeld: penny) is spelled, "Pennie" (MFeld: Pennie).
Great question!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm at a major show offer a coin for sale EF 45 1979cc and the "Dealer" says; "How much do you want for it" I say; my price He says too much, it's not rare anyway. I think; Hey seriously? "You're the dealer" Whatta ya do wait for old ladies to prance into your store so you can say "Normally I pay $15 for Morgans, but these are nicer so I pay $25"
Quotation marks because these things I've heard and over heard.
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The first thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for "the best price" and responds to it with "I'll think about it". A serious buyer doesn't ask for the best price until he's ready to make a decision on the spot.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The next thing that comes to mind is when a potential buyer asks for a price, goes to his phone to research auction prices, and passes on the coin because it came out of an auction for a little bit less, not that long ago. No problem if he passes, and no problem if he says that the auction record will get in the way of him reselling it for a profit, but taking the position that it's overpriced because it previously sold for less is BS.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
When a person talks about a 1979-CC coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Or shows a Facebook offering (like an "1804" silver dollar) and asks if it's a good deal.
He made the call, the price was too high he just did not want to ruffle your feathers.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Not to mention, it’s quite possible that he couldn’t have bought it out of the sale for as low of a price as he could buy it for, afterwards.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In that case, it backfired. I would have had more respect for a "no".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In the above scenario, it is also possible had the collector bid on the desired coin his winning bid (if he even did win at all) would have been much higher than the new asking price as we don't know what the underbidder's top bid really was.
That would make you the exception to my experience, the last two dealers I said no to at LB both got extremely irate and grabbed back the slab and threw it into the case. I get far less theatrics with "I'll think about it".
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
A dealer who cannot grade what he/she sells or attempts to buy. Too many dealers just push slabs without being able to determine whether the grade on the insert seems appropriate.
A long-time collector, who once insisted to me that he could authenticate U. S. coins, yet plainly did not know the details of what genuine U. S. mint products look like.
Any seasoned collector or dealer, who does not understand the mechanics of die and coin manufacture, and how these steps can impact what coins look like.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Anything can happen once and not raise an eyebrow. But twice in a row with two different dealers? Odds are you're doing something wrong. Not necessarily bad, of course, but wrong. Care to go into more detail?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What is worse (and I have seen this a number of times): the buyer using the seller's stated 'best price' as a tool, to continue haggling with the seller over the price.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
When they talk about the confiscation of gold. Sigh.
He who knows he has enough is rich.
The first time a coin dealer quotes a price, how often is that his best price?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Not very often. Some dealers won't budge, others will. Sometimes a dealer's best price will come with a 'no-return' demand.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
It was a rhetorical question but my experiences agree with yours.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Hard to say its been years since I was at a LB show; and I never said that was twice in a row; that happened at the first two shows I went to (not twice at the same show). Maybe my body language set them off, maybe it was a bad show for them, I could keep guessing but that is all I would be doing is guessing why. I do know that ever since I just say "I'll think about it" and there has not been any further drama. Which I guess means that I have not been to your table.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I saw the 😄. But for the record, there’s very little drama at my table. Ever. And if I told you the stories of the exceptions, you would marvel that no blood was spilled. Hey, now there’s an idea for my next thread! 🤪
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Read the post. If the person asks for a “best price,” and the dealer gives a “best price,” and the person counters with a lower price, the person is calling the dealer a liar. Whenever an idiot did that I put the coin back in the case and told him that the marked price is the price to him.
That’s bad form, but a common tactic even among those with large herds.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
When someone asks me for my best price, I give it to them. The problem is, if the person doesn’t know me and how I do business, they don’t believe me. At least, not at first. 😉Here’s a real-life experience...
Many years ago, when I was working for Pinnacle Rarities, we were at a Long Beach show. A dealer stopped at our table and asked me for my best price on one of our coins. I quoted him my best price. He countered. I declined his counter. Over the course of the next day or so, he tried at least three more times to buy the coin for less than my best price. He was unsuccessful each and every time. Finally, he asked me why I wouldn’t budge on the price. I told him something to the effect that “I realize you didn’t know me before now, but when someone asks for my best price, I give it to them.” He bought the coin at my original “best price” and while we didn’t do a lot of business, he didn’t counter my “best price” again. 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In most cases, I find it more effective to tell people that the price really was my bottom line. Or continue negotiating if it wasn’t.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Seller has coin for sale. Would-be buyer makes fair offer to seller, who says “I’ll get back to you on that”. Rarely does the seller get back to the person who made the fair offer. But frequently, the seller uses that fair offer to get a little more from someone else. And often, that someone else has initially tried to buy the coin for much less than the would-be buyer offered.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From the selling side: when a buyer quotes a price 30% of fmv. Offers are fine, even low offers, but ridiculous offers already show that you aren't serious.
From the buying side: when a seller calls every item "PQ" and "undergraded".
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Every time I see a seller have an OGH or rattler and follows it with “under graded” or when I see a buyer automatically assume NGC or ANACS or ICG = “over graded”.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
When you offer a coin to a dealer and name a price, and they hold and fondle the coin for a while, then look at their computer and mutter to themselves, then get distracted by something else and put the coin down on the back table while they deal with a buyer who just showed up and wants to chat.
This has happened multiple times at shows and makes me want to flip their table over.
"All Hat, No Cattle"
Is this a regional expression? I've never heard it before.
I looked it up, to be sure it meant what I thought it did.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I believe it originated in Texas, where there are more cowboy hats than cowboys, but it has spread to common usage.
Used in business as a derogatory description for someone who claims to have experience or knowledge that they don’t possess.
Isn’t it “Tall hat, no cattle?”...maybe just at my house. Known the phrase my whole life. Texas family, Oklahoma raising. I have neither a hat, nor cattle.
I still don’t know how they get 10 gallons into a hat!
It’s kinda the same thing as “All bark no bite”
@mfeld By the second time he came over to your table you must have known he was gonna buy it and to hold your ground.
Whether you want to call it a lie or a negotiating tactic, while some will indeed provide their best price, many will not.
I asked a dealer what the best price on a coin was. He replied "You can't afford that coin". I found that answer kinda annoying.
And many dealers, like myself, will dedide how to handle negotiations on a case by case basis.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I agree with you and operate in a similar way.
If a buyer at a show wants my best price, it is my bottom number.
It may be a different number depending on who is asking.....
a dealer who has bought many coins from me in the past versus a tire-kicking obnoxious PIA.
I agree. Just give a number and let the customer decide how high or over priced it is. I've paid moon money for pieces I really liked.
Usually it means the coin is overpriced and he's trolling for a sucker. If he thinks that you're knowledgeable, he doesn't want to quote you a price because he doesn't want to embarrass himself. It's the same as P.O.R. or Price On Request on a dealers web site or price list.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
This has also been my experience. Even when giving his "best price" most experienced dealers add a little cushion for negotiation which is the norm on the bourse floor. Price negotiation is all a game. If I like a coin and the dealer's "best price" is reasonable I usually accept it and buy it. I certainly don't want to be a pain in the azz since I may want to make future purchases from this dealer. If I make a reasonable counter offer when a dealer's so-called "best price" is still too high, the dealer can just say "pass". He shouldn't get emotional and assume that the buyer is calling him a liar. If a dealer is a drama queen he won't be getting my future business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Actually, I didn’t know. But it didn’t matter to me either way, because I’d already quoted my best price.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm pretty sure I could post a TrueView picture of a 62 & sell it for 65 price with a slab shot of a 65 CAC if nobody checked.
I could probably even get them to argue how it is better than a 66 if I told them it was a 63 (non-CAC)
My Saint Set
This is a really interesting thread with the perspectives of @MrEureka and @MFeld. I must reflect on, and feel guilty to some of the behaviors, particularly the "I'll think about it". If I reflect on when I have used the term, it is generally on rare, expensive, and somewhat difficult to price items, at least for me and I needed to think about how to value it vs. indecision on whether I wanted it or not. I figured it best to ask, get the reference point, and think about it, vs. not asking for a price, thinking about it, and then coming back for a price at a later point.
Latin American Collection
When someone asks to buy a coin from my personally collection with an unsolicited offer, I price it, and then they proceed to negotiate to try and get the price down to match what makes them comfortable. Making unsolicited offers is fine with me, but seeking a deep discount afterwards is a no go.
Latin American Collection
No offense to Mr. Feld, but it seems like a lot of the cattle a dealer would have would be from not having a fixed "best price" for a coin. I've never been a dealer, and I have a lot of empathy for those who are and have to make a living off of slim margins, but it seems like your "best price" should vary depending on a lot of factors. Like would you ask the same price 15 minutes after the show opens as you would 15 minutes before it closes? Would you hold as firm with a teenager counting the wad of $10 bills in his pocket as with a guy who has a gold credit card?
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