Home U.S. Coin Forum

3 lovely 1796 gold counterstruck coins, 2 silver 1/2 dollars and Ron Landis that I want to share

coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

I have been a fan of GMM and Ron Landis for a long time. I have purchased several of his newer pieces and posted them here
on this forum. Like many of you here, I have so many of his other pieces in silver, copper and gold and love each and every one of them.
.
For the last couple of years I've been going back and forth telling Ron I would love a few 1796 gold counterstuck pieces.
Fast forward trough my personal illness and he and I finally decided what they will look like AND......I even purchased a
1/2 Silver Dollar die (obv & rev) from him, he made 2 obverse and reverse impressions for me.
.
.
Here is a group photo of the silver 1/2 dollar and the 3 gold sisters.
.
.

.
.
This is a video of the 1/2 dollar being struck. As you can see the blanks were quite thick (32.9 grams)
They were hot struck. His initials RL are counter marked on the reverse.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZBv5AJ19kQ
.
.
This is the picture Ron sent me of the dies and 1/2 dollars
.

.
My image of the 1796 1/2 Silver Dollar
.

.
.
.
Now, to get to my 3 Beautiful 1796 gold Overstrikes.
The Double Eagle was overstruck on a 1869-S
.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqfTwfJlQ5M
.
.

.
.
The Eagle was struck on a 1904 double eagle
.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1RvSWgB_Aw
.
.

.
.
.
The Half Eagle was struck on a 1882 $10
.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paOt_ZBJ0bw
.
.

«1

Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice Stef....Some custom work in gold.... Next do one with your initials added....for provenance purposes. Cheers, RickO

  • KliaoKliao Posts: 5,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020 5:08AM

    Really neat stuff. I really like the half with all the cracks.

    Young Numismatist/collector
    75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
    instagram.com/klnumismatics

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,970 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great write up and cool pieces, Stef! It is really something when you can communicate directly to the artist what you're looking for and then hold that finished product. They look great

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Where is the incused “COPY” on the half dollars as legally required by the Hobby Protection Act of 1973 and revisions?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020 9:37AM

    Thanks everyone for your kind remarks.
    @CaptHenway the 2 struck pieces are counter marked with RL on the reverse. Both are overweight and hot struck with markings. I’m going to assume but can ask Ron,
    I’m fairly certain the dies would shatter if struck normally.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinsarefun said:
    Thanks everyone for your kind remarks.
    @CaptHenway the 2 struck pieces are counter marked with RL on the reverse. Both are overweight and hot struck with markings. I’m going to assume but can ask Ron,
    I’m fairly certain the dies would shatter if struck normally.

    All quite useful, but they do not fulfill the requirements of the law.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I really like that operation.
    Sign me up😊

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,075 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm incredibly jealous! Very very cool pieces. Thanks for sharing!

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I used to collect and enjoy HPA complant, COPY- marked 1990s era Gallery Mint items...

    until he started making the same designs again. apparently now not HPA compliant.

    What's next? "Latest from RL" spam thread for new fantasy/counterfeits?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020 7:06PM

    Wow @Baley . He is not making any of these shown here or anything else from GMM.
    He did the above just for me and they will not be sold either.
    The gold overstrikes are more fantasy coins not fakes / counterfeits. You can easily see the under type coins.
    As for the silver 1/2 D’s they are well marked albeit not according to the HPA . But sufficient for even a beginner collector to know the difference.
    Didn’t mean to spam and I’m sure he doesn’t need any help as he is doing his own original work, which I have posted here several times.

    Btw, these are his old personal dies from GMM. He hasn’t made anything like this nowadays

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    very interesting, on the half what does 'hot struck' mean?

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow that's so cool!

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    very interesting, on the half what does 'hot struck' mean?

    .
    .
    It means The blanks are heated before it goes into the press.

  • Mr Lindy Mr Lindy Posts: 982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2021 9:14AM

    Awesome Thread !!!!!!!

    I wish I had placed more "Special Orders" back when GMM were in business in the 90's & 2000s.

    You are lucky to have commissioned such epic examples !!!!!

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very interesting and quite the special piece. Great idea. I'm gonna try something like that with a friend who has a hydraulic press. Gotta think about what to restrike. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2021 7:18PM

    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    I the maker of this known? Any estimate of when and where it was made?

  • KurisuKurisu Posts: 1,840 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Straight up fascinating post.
    Makes me feel like I have missed quite a bit of information while learning quite a bit simultaneously.

    I would truly love to know more about your story @coinsarefun ...I'm guessing someone can point me towards some of it :blush:
    Thank you @coinsarefun and @cardinal just wonderful stuff.

    Coins are Neato!

    "If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:

    i'm not sure just how much more obvious that coin is in-hand but those pics make me want to never risk buying a 96 half. of course at first i thought it was the quarter despite staring RIGHT at the 1/2. ><

    haven't used this in a while so i'll say from those images scans?, i'll give that thing a class V out of V rating.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2021 9:45PM

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    Was that made in a transfer process from this coin (below) ? I see the same lint marks on both and the black planchet inclusion across the "I" of UNITED seems to have been transferred to the coin above as a shallow depression.

  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,585 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Excellent and fascinating post! Thank you @cardinal


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021 9:39AM

    @dcarr said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    Was that made in a transfer process from this coin (below) ? I see the same lint marks on both and the black planchet inclusion across the "I" of UNITED seems to have been transferred to the coin above as a shallow depression.

    Yes, the piece was made from the Allenberger­ specimen. At some time, someone borrowed the Atwater specimen and created dies from that coin. Supposedly, there are more of these out there, but I have never seen another one.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am glad to know that all of the owners pf these "non-compliant" counterfeits have left strict instructions to have all of their counterfeits buried with them so that no future generation can sell them fraudulently!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021 3:32PM

    @cardinal said:

    @dcarr said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    Was that made in a transfer process from this coin (below) ? I see the same lint marks on both and the black planchet inclusion across the "I" of UNITED seems to have been transferred to the coin above as a shallow depression.

    Yes, the piece was made from the Allenberger­ specimen. At some time, someone borrowed the Atwater specimen and created dies from that coin. Supposedly, there are more of these out there, but I have never seen another one.

    I'm not familiar with the pedigree on these. Is the "Allenberger specimen" and the "Atwater specimen" the same coin (just different owners at different times) ?

    From the limited ownership history of the original coin, is it possible to determine who made the copies ?

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @cardinal said:

    @dcarr said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    Was that made in a transfer process from this coin (below) ? I see the same lint marks on both and the black planchet inclusion across the "I" of UNITED seems to have been transferred to the coin above as a shallow depression.

    Yes, the piece was made from the Allenberger­ specimen. At some time, someone borrowed the Atwater specimen and created dies from that coin. Supposedly, there are more of these out there, but I have never seen another one.

    I'm not familiar with the pedigree on these. Is the "Allenberger specimen" and the "Atwater specimen" the same coin (just different owners at different times) ?

    From the limited ownership history of the original coin, is it possible to determine who made the copies ?

    The original coin had many notable owners, including those. Judd own it, the Knoxville collector owned it, and Pogue owned it.

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr

    This is the provenance of the piece, as listed in PCGS CoinFacts:

    Dr. Christian A. Allenburger Collection - B. Max Mehl 3/1948:385 - Dr. J. Hewitt Judd Collection - Kosoff 1962 (or 2?) FPL, lot 36 - Kreisberg & Schulman 3/1964:1289 - L.A. Collection - Stack’s 10/1990:1646 - John Whitney Walter Collection - Stack's 5/1999:1777, $138,000 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack’s/Bowers & Sotheby’s 5/2015:1100, $587,500

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    .
    .
    .
    Absolutely beautiful! That’s something you hold on forever and toss it in the box with you B)

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021 6:56PM

    @cardinal said:
    @dcarr

    This is the provenance of the piece, as listed in PCGS CoinFacts:

    Dr. Christian A. Allenburger Collection - B. Max Mehl 3/1948:385 - Dr. J. Hewitt Judd Collection - Kosoff 1962 (or 2?) FPL, lot 36 - Kreisberg & Schulman 3/1964:1289 - L.A. Collection - Stack’s 10/1990:1646 - John Whitney Walter Collection - Stack's 5/1999:1777, $138,000 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack’s/Bowers & Sotheby’s 5/2015:1100, $587,500

    Are there other copies of different coins, but of a similar fabric, where the original copied coin was in any of those collections ?
    It seems that one of these owners had the copy made (or allowed it to be made). Maybe they had copies of other coins made as well ?

    I could imagine that an owner of a valuable collection might want to have high-quality copies made of their best coins so that they could enjoy them everyday without having to worry about keeping them hidden away all the time.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @cardinal said:
    @dcarr

    This is the provenance of the piece, as listed in PCGS CoinFacts:

    Dr. Christian A. Allenburger Collection - B. Max Mehl 3/1948:385 - Dr. J. Hewitt Judd Collection - Kosoff 1962 (or 2?) FPL, lot 36 - Kreisberg & Schulman 3/1964:1289 - L.A. Collection - Stack’s 10/1990:1646 - John Whitney Walter Collection - Stack's 5/1999:1777, $138,000 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack’s/Bowers & Sotheby’s 5/2015:1100, $587,500

    Are there other copies of different coins, but of a similar fabric, where the original copied coin was in any of those collections ?
    It seems that one of these owners had the copy made (or allowed it to be made). Maybe they had copies of other coins made as well ?

    I could imagine that an owner of a valuable collection might want to have high-quality copies made of their best coins so that they could enjoy them everyday without having to worry about keeping them hidden away all the time.

    As a numismatist I could enjoy looking at a high quality photo of something I knew I had in the SDB. I could not enjoy looking at a counterfeit of it. Your mileage may vary.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @cardinal said:
    @dcarr

    This is the provenance of the piece, as listed in PCGS CoinFacts:

    Dr. Christian A. Allenburger Collection - B. Max Mehl 3/1948:385 - Dr. J. Hewitt Judd Collection - Kosoff 1962 (or 2?) FPL, lot 36 - Kreisberg & Schulman 3/1964:1289 - L.A. Collection - Stack’s 10/1990:1646 - John Whitney Walter Collection - Stack's 5/1999:1777, $138,000 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack’s/Bowers & Sotheby’s 5/2015:1100, $587,500

    Are there other copies of different coins, but of a similar fabric, where the original copied coin was in any of those collections ?

    Yes!

    While drafting my book on the Population of the 1794 Silver Dollars, I recalled a conversation with Jules Reiver, when he told me about his specimen of the 1794 dollar. He told me that he had two 1794 dollars - and they were nearly identical. Jules recognized the one of them must have been a fake. He submitted each one to the ANACS to be tested - with sending only one at a time. The tests showed that BOTH were legitimate - that showed the skill of the person that created the fake. Jules said that whenever he might sell them, they would be sold together, so that the owner would be assured that they had at least one real one. Later on in my research, I found another 1794 dollar that appeared in an Heritage Auction, that matched those two coins of Jules. Clearly, that was another fake and was noted in my book.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,972 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:

    @dcarr said:

    @cardinal said:
    @dcarr

    This is the provenance of the piece, as listed in PCGS CoinFacts:

    Dr. Christian A. Allenburger Collection - B. Max Mehl 3/1948:385 - Dr. J. Hewitt Judd Collection - Kosoff 1962 (or 2?) FPL, lot 36 - Kreisberg & Schulman 3/1964:1289 - L.A. Collection - Stack’s 10/1990:1646 - John Whitney Walter Collection - Stack's 5/1999:1777, $138,000 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack’s/Bowers & Sotheby’s 5/2015:1100, $587,500

    Are there other copies of different coins, but of a similar fabric, where the original copied coin was in any of those collections ?

    Yes!

    While drafting my book on the Population of the 1794 Silver Dollars, I recalled a conversation with Jules Reiver, when he told me about his specimen of the 1794 dollar. He told me that he had two 1794 dollars - and they were nearly identical. Jules recognized the one of them must have been a fake. He submitted each one to the ANACS to be tested - with sending only one at a time. The tests showed that BOTH were legitimate - that showed the skill of the person that created the fake. Jules said that whenever he might sell them, they would be sold together, so that the owner would be assured that they had at least one real one. Later on in my research, I found another 1794 dollar that appeared in an Heritage Auction, that matched those two coins of Jules. Clearly, that was another fake and was noted in my book.

    So if there were two or more identical copies, it can be inferred that the maker's purpose was to sell and make money.

    Is it known what collection Reiver's 1794 dollar copy came from ?

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I was at ANACS back in the early 80's, the then-Curator arranged a visit for the entire team of Authenticators to some department at the University of Colorado in Boulder (his alma mater) that was making cast copies of a coin collection the University owned so they could display the counterfeits and keep the good ones locked up. As an example the technician took a common small size Pine Tree Shilling that he let everybody study, made a mold of it that he let us study, melted silver with a blowtorch and pressure cast the silver into the mold using a centrifuge and when it had cooled let us study it with the sprue still attached, trimmed the sprue and let us study it again, and then antiqued it. Did the same thing with a few other pieces. It was quite illustrating.

    When we were all done he gave the Pine Tree Shilling to our Director, Ken Bressett. Ken carried it as a pocket piece for years. Every time we ran into each other at an ANA convention I would ask to see it. It was circulating down nicely and getting a more natural patina, when one convention he told me that he had lost it. I wonder where it is today?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CalifornianKingCalifornianKing Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    damn that's a scary copy. If you told me it was real I'd belive you. I mean at first glance

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is original Robison 1794 dollar, and the product of the US Mint:

    This is Jules' 1794 dollar, before he acquired the genuine Robison dollar. When ANACS tested it, they determined that the trace elements of were consistent with other 1794 dollars, Furthermore, it was die struck piece from transfer dies:

    And this is another transfer die struck piece, but not an original 1794 dollar:

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    damn that's a scary copy. If you told me it was real I'd believe you. I mean at first glance

    I agree....some years ago, I showed to Laura Sperber and she said It was cleaned and not fitting for my collection, suggesting that I sell it as soon as possible. I asked what I should sell it for, and she said if I could get between $45k and $50k, I should take it. When I told her that would give me an nice profit, I paused as she looked on, and then I told her it was a die struck counterfeit piece.

    Some years later, I showed it to JD, and he looked briefly, thinking "why am I looking at a cleaned half dollar?" Then when I did the reveal, he looked at it much more carefully, and said it was "quite deceiving!"

  • CalifornianKingCalifornianKing Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    damn that's a scary copy. If you told me it was real I'd believe you. I mean at first glance

    I agree....some years ago, I showed to Laura Sperber and she said It was cleaned and not fitting for my collection, suggesting that I sell it as soon as possible. I asked what I should sell it for, and she said if I could get between $45k and $50k, I should take it. When I told her that would give me an nice profit, I paused as she looked on, and then I told her it was a die struck counterfeit piece.

    Some years later, I showed it to JD, and he looked briefly, thinking "why am I looking at a cleaned half dollar?" Then when I did the reveal, he looked at it much more carefully, and said it was "quite deceiving!"

    If you told me it was real I would have thought it was real but cleaned. How were these made? were these made of the orignial dies? Because if the fakes are this good, our hobby is screwed. Also what do you mean "die struck" like off the orignial die? Or a new one?

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    damn that's a scary copy. If you told me it was real I'd believe you. I mean at first glance

    I agree....some years ago, I showed to Laura Sperber and she said It was cleaned and not fitting for my collection, suggesting that I sell it as soon as possible. I asked what I should sell it for, and she said if I could get between $45k and $50k, I should take it. When I told her that would give me an nice profit, I paused as she looked on, and then I told her it was a die struck counterfeit piece.

    Some years later, I showed it to JD, and he looked briefly, thinking "why am I looking at a cleaned half dollar?" Then when I did the reveal, he looked at it much more carefully, and said it was "quite deceiving!"

    If you told me it was real I would have thought it was real but cleaned. How were these made? were these made of the orignial dies? Because if the fakes are this good, our hobby is screwed. Also what do you mean "die struck" like off the orignial die? Or a new one?

    There are two methods to create a die from a pre-existing die - like a criminal may borrow a key, press it in the bar of soap, and then fill the void. The other method would have you covering the coin with graphite and then pour melted metal over it. When that metal cools off, it will be strong enough to handle a hardened planchet such that it could be used as a die that would impress the design into the planchet. With the first method, if you tapped the key it would make a dull sound. With the other, the struck piece would ring like a bell. The piece I have rings like a bell when tapped on metal - just like any other US Mint coin.

  • CalifornianKingCalifornianKing Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    damn that's a scary copy. If you told me it was real I'd believe you. I mean at first glance

    I agree....some years ago, I showed to Laura Sperber and she said It was cleaned and not fitting for my collection, suggesting that I sell it as soon as possible. I asked what I should sell it for, and she said if I could get between $45k and $50k, I should take it. When I told her that would give me an nice profit, I paused as she looked on, and then I told her it was a die struck counterfeit piece.

    Some years later, I showed it to JD, and he looked briefly, thinking "why am I looking at a cleaned half dollar?" Then when I did the reveal, he looked at it much more carefully, and said it was "quite deceiving!"

    If you told me it was real I would have thought it was real but cleaned. How were these made? were these made of the orignial dies? Because if the fakes are this good, our hobby is screwed. Also what do you mean "die struck" like off the orignial die? Or a new one?

    There are two methods to create a die from a pre-existing die - like a criminal may borrow a key, press it in the bar of soap, and then fill the void. The other method would have you covering the coin with graphite and then pour melted metal over it. When that metal cools off, it will be strong enough to handle a hardened planchet such that it could be used as a die that would impress the design into the planchet. With the first method, if you tapped the key it would make a dull sound. With the other, the struck piece would ring like a bell. The piece I have rings like a bell when tapped on metal - just like any other US Mint coin.

    Wow. That's scary. Is there a way to tell the difference between that and a real one?! Try sending it to PCGS/NGC and see if they catch it...

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    damn that's a scary copy. If you told me it was real I'd believe you. I mean at first glance

    I agree....some years ago, I showed to Laura Sperber and she said It was cleaned and not fitting for my collection, suggesting that I sell it as soon as possible. I asked what I should sell it for, and she said if I could get between $45k and $50k, I should take it. When I told her that would give me an nice profit, I paused as she looked on, and then I told her it was a die struck counterfeit piece.

    Some years later, I showed it to JD, and he looked briefly, thinking "why am I looking at a cleaned half dollar?" Then when I did the reveal, he looked at it much more carefully, and said it was "quite deceiving!"

    If you told me it was real I would have thought it was real but cleaned. How were these made? were these made of the orignial dies? Because if the fakes are this good, our hobby is screwed. Also what do you mean "die struck" like off the orignial die? Or a new one?

    There are two methods to create a die from a pre-existing die - like a criminal may borrow a key, press it in the bar of soap, and then fill the void. The other method would have you covering the coin with graphite and then pour melted metal over it. When that metal cools off, it will be strong enough to handle a hardened planchet such that it could be used as a die that would impress the design into the planchet. With the first method, if you tapped the key it would make a dull sound. With the other, the struck piece would ring like a bell. The piece I have rings like a bell when tapped on metal - just like any other US Mint coin.

    Wow. That's scary. Is there a way to tell the difference between that and a real one?! Try sending it to PCGS/NGC and see if they catch it...

    The telltale about the piece, it is considerably lighter than the actual coin struck by the US Mint dies.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are two methods to create a die from a pre-existing die - like a criminal may borrow a key, press it in the bar of soap, and then fill the void. The other method would have you covering the coin with graphite and then pour melted metal over it. When that metal cools off, it will be strong enough to handle a hardened planchet such that it could be used as a die that would impress the design into the planchet. With the first method, if you tapped the key it would make a dull sound. With the other, the struck piece would ring like a bell. The piece I have rings like a bell when tapped on metal - just like any other US Mint coin.

    Create a die from a die or a die from a coin? Either way there are multiple ways to make one from the other.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CalifornianKingCalifornianKing Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:

    @CalifornianKing said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is also non-compliant:

    I won this in a Sheridan Downey auction many years ago, and he told me that a number of other dealers implored him to stamp COPY on it. However, Sheridan knew me and trusted me to not pass it off as legitimate. I still have it, and the skill of the maker was very very fine! (I have shown the piece to knowledgeable dealers, and all believed it was a product of the US Mint....that is, until they looked really close,)

    damn that's a scary copy. If you told me it was real I'd believe you. I mean at first glance

    I agree....some years ago, I showed to Laura Sperber and she said It was cleaned and not fitting for my collection, suggesting that I sell it as soon as possible. I asked what I should sell it for, and she said if I could get between $45k and $50k, I should take it. When I told her that would give me an nice profit, I paused as she looked on, and then I told her it was a die struck counterfeit piece.

    Some years later, I showed it to JD, and he looked briefly, thinking "why am I looking at a cleaned half dollar?" Then when I did the reveal, he looked at it much more carefully, and said it was "quite deceiving!"

    If you told me it was real I would have thought it was real but cleaned. How were these made? were these made of the orignial dies? Because if the fakes are this good, our hobby is screwed. Also what do you mean "die struck" like off the orignial die? Or a new one?

    There are two methods to create a die from a pre-existing die - like a criminal may borrow a key, press it in the bar of soap, and then fill the void. The other method would have you covering the coin with graphite and then pour melted metal over it. When that metal cools off, it will be strong enough to handle a hardened planchet such that it could be used as a die that would impress the design into the planchet. With the first method, if you tapped the key it would make a dull sound. With the other, the struck piece would ring like a bell. The piece I have rings like a bell when tapped on metal - just like any other US Mint coin.

    Wow. That's scary. Is there a way to tell the difference between that and a real one?! Try sending it to PCGS/NGC and see if they catch it...

    The telltale about the piece, it is considerably lighter than the actual coin struck by the US Mint dies.

    Ah that's good. Otherwise our hobby would be screwed.

  • Mr Lindy Mr Lindy Posts: 982 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These are so beautiful !
    20+ year old discontinued dies put back into service in 2020.

    @coinsarefun said:
    I have been a fan of GMM and Ron Landis for a long time. I have purchased several of his newer pieces and posted them here
    on this forum. Like many of you here, I have so many of his other pieces in silver, copper and gold and love each and every one of them.
    .
    For the last couple of years I've been going back and forth telling Ron I would love a few 1796 gold counterstuck pieces.
    Fast forward trough my personal illness and he and I finally decided what they will look like AND......I even purchased a
    1/2 Silver Dollar die (obv & rev) from him, he made 2 obverse and reverse impressions for me.
    .
    .
    Here is a group photo of the silver 1/2 dollar and the 3 gold sisters.
    .
    .

    .
    .
    This is a video of the 1/2 dollar being struck. As you can see the blanks were quite thick (32.9 grams)
    They were hot struck. His initials RL are counter marked on the reverse.
    .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZBv5AJ19kQ
    .
    .
    This is the picture Ron sent me of the dies and 1/2 dollars
    .

    .
    My image of the 1796 1/2 Silver Dollar
    .

    .
    .
    .
    Now, to get to my 3 Beautiful 1796 gold Overstrikes.
    The Double Eagle was overstruck on a 1869-S
    .
    .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqfTwfJlQ5M
    .
    .

    .
    .
    The Eagle was struck on a 1904 double eagle
    .
    .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1RvSWgB_Aw
    .
    .

    .
    .
    .
    The Half Eagle was struck on a 1882 $10
    .
    .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paOt_ZBJ0bw
    .
    .

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LindyS said:
    These are so beautiful !
    20+ year old discontinued dies put back into service in 2020.

    @coinsarefun said:

    Thank you very much. I am an extremely lucky girl. I so enjoy looking at these

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,288 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fascinating stuff Stef - thanks for posting!

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • Eldorado9Eldorado9 Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Big fan of Landis' work. I particularly love his current Art Medals, that imitate ancient Greek and Roman rarities.....In hand they are truly awesome.

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LindyS said:
    1 of 4 hot struck from 2 melted US gold eagles on site, at 1999 ANA Summer Seminar


    .
    .
    .
    f you ever decide to ket it go please let me know.....thanks :)

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file