These threads are almost as predictable as the actions of the sun and moon. Before long, someone with an ax to grind shows up with an example of an anomaly.
It isn't hard to find mistakes, areas of diverging opinion, or things that seem incorrect in almost any human endeavor. The very best judges come up with the wrong verdict from time to time. Great carmakers occasionally produce a lemon, an occasional airliner crashes, and not every cosmetic surgery goes well. Finding examples of these and touting them as "look at how horrible this is" is a mistake, but we subjective humans are fascinated by outliers.
If you look at the impact of CAC on a large scale, the market speaks clearly. This is true even if you don't like it or agree with it. The market doesn't care what you think. You can act in opposition to it, or work to understand it and use it to your advantage. As with all things, individual exceptions are NOT hard to find.
Even if I actually know more about a certain thing in numismatics than the TPGs or the sticker people, still, the market does not care.
As for succession, I'm sure a plan is in place and I'm sure is does them no good to talk about it ahead of time. There is more than one grader there and keeping that business model going really shouldn't be all that difficult.
When and if JA retires, why wouldn't he release the dates each coin stickered. I think that does create a market similar to OGH, Rattler, etc. and again everyone can value them as they please.
@MFeld said:
Change the size of the picture of the 66 to that of the 65 and the size of the 65 picture to that of the 66 and let's see how the coins compare.
@BryceM said:
Before long, someone with an ax to grind shows up with an example of an anomaly.
Give me a random date & I'll be back in 5 minutes
Any dahlonega quarter eagle
That's not really a fair comparison. The number of Dahlonega samples is limited and the availability of images to review was killed by a certain someone given the capricious nature of coin grading (not CAC specific) the last few years. The quality of manufacture is also highly variable especially for strike making internet image comparison difficult particularly when comparing AU v MS.
@cameonut2011 said:
JAs pet peeves are high point friction as TDN wrote plus hits on the knee or rays.
If you look at the above coin, toning covers the bag marks & friction.
Her nose was obviously smashed & it is a golden brown now.
Her breasts are flat, like she was pushing them against glass, those are covered in toning also.
It's not shiny because the friction happened a long time ago.
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
@BryceM said:
Before long, someone with an ax to grind shows up with an example of an anomaly.
Give me a random date & I'll be back in 5 minutes
Any dahlonega quarter eagle
That's not really a fair comparison. The number of Dahlonega samples is limited and the availability of images to review was killed by a certain someone given the capricious nature of coin grading (not CAC specific) the last few years. The quality of manufacture is also highly variable especially for strike making internet image comparison difficult particularly when comparing AU v MS.
He said give any random date---i didnt see it limited to any particular gold series.
@Smudge said:
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
I think most are looking to see if the coins sell for the high asking prices on eBay. Remember there is a guaranteed buyer (CAC) so the prices on eBay would logically be at least JA's bid + eBay fees + PayPal + a little extra for time in imaging and annoyances of e-commerce.
@Smudge said:
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
I think most are looking to see if the coins sell for the high asking prices on eBay. Remember there is a guaranteed buyer (CAC) so the prices on eBay would logically be at least JA's bid + eBay fees + PayPal + a little extra for time in imaging and annoyances of e-commerce.
@Smudge said:
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
I think most are looking to see if the coins sell for the high asking prices on eBay. Remember there is a guaranteed buyer (CAC) so the prices on eBay would logically be at least JA's bid + eBay fees + PayPal + a little extra for time in imaging and annoyances of e-commerce.
Makes sense.
Except for the fact that there are all sorts of coins for which CAC doesn’t have bids.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Smudge said:
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
I think most are looking to see if the coins sell for the high asking prices on eBay. Remember there is a guaranteed buyer (CAC) so the prices on eBay would logically be at least JA's bid + eBay fees + PayPal + a little extra for time in imaging and annoyances of e-commerce.
Makes sense.
Except for the fact that there are all sorts of coins for which CAC doesn’t have bids.
@Smudge said:
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
I think most are looking to see if the coins sell for the high asking prices on eBay. Remember there is a guaranteed buyer (CAC) so the prices on eBay would logically be at least JA's bid + eBay fees + PayPal + a little extra for time in imaging and annoyances of e-commerce.
Makes sense.
Except for the fact that there are all sorts of coins for which CAC doesn’t have bids.
CAC will make an offer on anything with an email or phone call.
@Smudge said:
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
I think most are looking to see if the coins sell for the high asking prices on eBay. Remember there is a guaranteed buyer (CAC) so the prices on eBay would logically be at least JA's bid + eBay fees + PayPal + a little extra for time in imaging and annoyances of e-commerce.
Makes sense.
Except for the fact that there are all sorts of coins for which CAC doesn’t have bids.
CAC will make an offer on anything with an email or phone call.
Even if so, that’s not remotely similar to having bids posted for coins they want to purchase. And I don’t think that has any meaningful bearing on the number of watchers for CAC coins on EBay
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
For it to work, I have to know the coins that failed CAC & I don't own any 1/4 eagles.
That’s a VERY simple task for ANY collector that understands the easiest basic research:
1. Go to the free PCGS CoinFacts, and search out any date of Dahlonega Quarter Eagles.
2. Click on “See other Photos”.
3. They show you very clearly cert numbers of many coins and their grades.
4. Go to the free CAC website, then to “Coin Look-up”.
5. Plug in the cert number, and you’ll see if the coin passed or not!
For it to work, I have to know the coins that failed CAC & I don't own any 1/4 eagles.
That’s a VERY simple task for ANY collector that understands the easiest basic research:
1. Go to the free PCGS CoinFacts, and search out any date of Dahlonega Quarter Eagles.
2. Click on “See other Photos”.
3. They show you very clearly cert numbers of many coins and their grades.
4. Go to the free CAC website, then to “Coin Look-up”.
5. Plug in the cert number, and you’ll see if the coin passed or not!
Steve
Thanks, that never crossed my mind.
As was subsequently pointed out, however, that won’t tell you if a particular coin has been submitted and rejected.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think it’s impossible to try predict future market or involvement of individuals. I favor diversified investment vs one entity, individual or stock.
Numismatic investment has its risks....Look how the 50-D nickel faded from glory or the 89 crash bankrupted many. On the flip side look how well bullion did this year. Will it slide back down or go up? Knowledge and experience is king in determining success in this arena.
Ones faith should be in themselves to ride the waves and do well with RCI based on skills buying and selling. Nobody is going to be the bank for you or absorb your risk. I believe many things after covid will reposition themselves and anybody’s guess. A mine will only be useful to the owner until all the money has been wrung out of it.
@chesterb said:
Maybe a CAC sticker becomes the equivalent of an OGH. But I am sure there will be another service to take their place.
I wouldn’t count on another such service. People with the combination of John’s abilities, motives, willingness, well earned and deserved reputation, influence and likability are virtually, if not, none existent.
There doesn't necessarily need to be another service for the analogy to hold. Maybe 20 years from now we'll be debating between the old conservative green stickers versus the newer "loose as a goose" iteration in existence. Many people, including one of Legend's principals, have noted that there is some sticker inflation.
@chesterb said:
Maybe a CAC sticker becomes the equivalent of an OGH. But I am sure there will be another service to take their place.
I wouldn’t count on another such service. People with the combination of John’s abilities, motives, willingness, well earned and deserved reputation, influence and likability are virtually, if not, none existent.
It doesn't necessarily need to be another service for the analogy to hold. Maybe 20 years from now we'll be debating between the old conservative green stickers versus the newer "loose as a goose" iteration in existence. Many people, including one of Legend's principals, have noted that there is some sticker inflation.
Thinking out loud... I wonder how the premium would work for an OGH with an old CAC sticker. Do you only get one price bonus or two (i.e. bump for the OGH and a bump for the old sticker above and beyond the recent iteration sticker)?
I'm having trouble seeing a negative to having coins approved by an expert.
The service doesn't have to be perfect to be good for the market. Looking at the glass half full:
Coins are worth more with a sticker.
The market has accepted the service as a whole.
Coins that are exceptional for the grade in each series are viewable examples as a higher standard for novice collectors to appreciate and learn from, another benefit for the marketplace.
CAC is an independent market maker, creating additional demand.
@fathom said:
I'm having trouble seeing a negative to having coins approved by an expert.
CAC is an independent market maker, creating additional demand.
@fathom said:
I'm having trouble seeing a negative to having coins approved by an expert.
CAC is an independent market maker, creating additional demand.
Enjoy...I'm heading over to the dark side
come on over
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@fathom said:
I'm having trouble seeing a negative to having coins approved by an expert.
The service doesn't have to be perfect to be good for the market. Looking at the glass half full:
Coins are worth more with a sticker.
The market has accepted the service as a whole.
Coins that are exceptional for the grade in each series are viewable examples as a higher standard for novice collectors to appreciate and learn from, another benefit for the marketplace.
CAC is an independent market maker, creating additional demand.
Welcome to the Forum! Hope to hear a lot more from you over time, as you recognize and clearly verbalize common sense ideas and facts.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
This thread went off track a little ways, although I really appreciate (most of) the discussion.
The different responses caused me to think about my original question, which now seems flawed, and sparked some PM and even email exchanges which helped me connect and separate some of my thoughts and questions.
I feel like I understand this service, and the place it has cemented in the market a little better, and all the information I have so far should help me with how I will proceed, and what questions I still need and want to ask (which I will probably do via PM and email after the eye-rolls this thread seemed to invoke).
Thank you all for helping make this place worthwhile!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
@pursuitofliberty said:
This thread went off track a little ways, although I really appreciate (most of) the discussion.
The different responses caused me to think about my original question, which now seems flawed, and sparked some PM and even email exchanges which helped me connect and separate some of my thoughts and questions.
I feel like I understand this service, and the place it has cemented in the market a little better, and all the information I have so far should help me with how I will proceed, and what questions I still need and want to ask (which I will probably do via PM and email after the eye-rolls this thread seemed to invoke).
Thank you all for helping make this place worthwhile!
Todd, that’s why I wrote at the very beginning of this thread “OK, here we go again”, recognizing the sensitivity of this topic. But while quite lengthy, I believe this thread has been healthy. I’m surprised in a positive way that it’s been allowed to continue this long, as many of these threads go “poof”. Apparently, we’ve behaved ourselves well enough for this to continue.
Your intelligence, politeness, and open-mindedness have shown through since the beginning, regardless of your current thoughts and positions. Thank you!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Todd, that’s why I wrote at the very beginning of this thread “OK, here we go again”, recognizing the sensitivity of this topic. But while quite lengthy, I believe this thread has been healthy.
+1
I’m surprised in a positive way that it’s been allowed to continue this long, as many of these threads go “poof”.
It's only two pages long. We aren't that bad.
Your intelligence, politeness, and open-mindedness have shown through since the beginning, regardless of your current thoughts and positions. Thank you!
On a final note, since you seem to be new to CAC, it can be a very useful learning tool. If you make a submission and request for feedback, John will send you a note with feedback. In that sense, submitting sooner than later can be beneficial. I recommend that all collectors open a submission account.
@fathom said:
I'm having trouble seeing a negative to having coins approved by an expert.
The service doesn't have to be perfect to be good for the market. Looking at the glass half full:
Coins are worth more with a sticker.
The market has accepted the service as a whole.
Coins that are exceptional for the grade in each series are viewable examples as a higher standard for novice collectors to appreciate and learn from, another benefit for the marketplace.
CAC is an independent market maker, creating additional demand.
Welcome to the Forum! Hope to hear a lot more from you over time, as you recognize and clearly verbalize common sense ideas and facts.
Thanks and thanks to the host, wealth of info and knowledge here.
@Gazes said:
There are already others who have started or operate sticker services now. None come close to the impact cac has had on the market and collectors. I think it is less likely any service in the future will have the stature, influence and following of CAC. Possible---yes, likely---no.
I agree. However if they were to succeed, it certainly won't happen overnight.
@cameonut2011 said:
On a final note, since you seem to be new to CAC, it can be a very useful learning tool. If you make a submission and request for feedback, John will send you a note with feedback. In that sense, submitting sooner than later can be beneficial. I recommend that all collectors open a submission account.
This is no longer true, my recent submission I requested feedback on three of twenty coins and was told none would be given.
@cameonut2011 said:
On a final note, since you seem to be new to CAC, it can be a very useful learning tool. If you make a submission and request for feedback, John will send you a note with feedback. In that sense, submitting sooner than later can be beneficial. I recommend that all collectors open a submission account.
This is no longer true, my recent submission I requested feedback on three of twenty coins and was told none would be given.
Do they still award account credits for coins that fail for collector members?
@cameonut2011 said:
On a final note, since you seem to be new to CAC, it can be a very useful learning tool. If you make a submission and request for feedback, John will send you a note with feedback. In that sense, submitting sooner than later can be beneficial. I recommend that all collectors open a submission account.
This is no longer true, my recent submission I requested feedback on three of twenty coins and was told none would be given.
Do they still award account credits for coins that fail for collector members?
Comments
This coin CAC'ed at MS66
https://www.davidlawrence.com/rare-coin/2126247
This coin did not CAC at MS65
This would be one of my 1st CAC lessons.
My Saint Set
What a nice, fair and objective comparison
Change the size of the picture of the 66 to that of the 65 and the size of the 65 picture to that of the 66 and let's see how the coins compare.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
2nd CAC lesson, make judgments based on an in hand review, not photos.
3rd CACs lesson, save your $$$$$.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
These threads are almost as predictable as the actions of the sun and moon. Before long, someone with an ax to grind shows up with an example of an anomaly.
It isn't hard to find mistakes, areas of diverging opinion, or things that seem incorrect in almost any human endeavor. The very best judges come up with the wrong verdict from time to time. Great carmakers occasionally produce a lemon, an occasional airliner crashes, and not every cosmetic surgery goes well. Finding examples of these and touting them as "look at how horrible this is" is a mistake, but we subjective humans are fascinated by outliers.
If you look at the impact of CAC on a large scale, the market speaks clearly. This is true even if you don't like it or agree with it. The market doesn't care what you think. You can act in opposition to it, or work to understand it and use it to your advantage. As with all things, individual exceptions are NOT hard to find.
Even if I actually know more about a certain thing in numismatics than the TPGs or the sticker people, still, the market does not care.
As for succession, I'm sure a plan is in place and I'm sure is does them no good to talk about it ahead of time. There is more than one grader there and keeping that business model going really shouldn't be all that difficult.
All I know is people pay more than the $15 it costs me if my coin gets a sticker.
Positive expected value? Sign me up.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
When and if JA retires, why wouldn't he release the dates each coin stickered. I think that does create a market similar to OGH, Rattler, etc. and again everyone can value them as they please.
You can't be serious
Right click the PCGS image and open in a new tab.
My Saint Set
Give me a random date & I'll be back in 5 minutes
My Saint Set
Any dahlonega quarter eagle
For it to work, I have to know the coins that failed CAC & I don't own any 1/4 eagles.
My Saint Set
JA hates friction on unc coins....especially gem unc coins. That 2nd 1924 Double Eagle has very shiny high points
So do I...
Nose, fingers on torch hand, toes & right knee are what I look for.
No friction on the 2nd one.
Lots of friction on this CAC'er MS66 also
Actual flat spot on knee with big bag hit.
Bag hit on torch, flat nose...
One of the things I noticed when I became a young man were breasts.
One of the 1st things I noticed about breasts was that there should be 2 of them.
C-grade CAC coins are everywhere, I look at them almost every day.
My Saint Set
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Assuming it was submitted
My Saint Set
That's not really a fair comparison. The number of Dahlonega samples is limited and the availability of images to review was killed by a certain someone given the capricious nature of coin grading (not CAC specific) the last few years. The quality of manufacture is also highly variable especially for strike making internet image comparison difficult particularly when comparing AU v MS.
95% chance it has if Dahlonega
JAs pet peeves are high point friction as TDN wrote plus hits on the knee or rays.
If you look at the above coin, toning covers the bag marks & friction.
Her nose was obviously smashed & it is a golden brown now.
Her breasts are flat, like she was pushing them against glass, those are covered in toning also.
It's not shiny because the friction happened a long time ago.
My Saint Set
I have noticed that on eBay coins with a sticker tend to have more watchers. While watchers is a poor indicator of whether or not a coin will be purchased, it is a good indicator of how much interest there is in a coin. Edit, at least the coins I look at.
He said give any random date---i didnt see it limited to any particular gold series.
Obviously saints...I don't know anything about any other type of coin and have said as much many times.
Although I have heard JA isn't that great with EAC either.
People seem to accept that though.
My Saint Set
I think most are looking to see if the coins sell for the high asking prices on eBay. Remember there is a guaranteed buyer (CAC) so the prices on eBay would logically be at least JA's bid + eBay fees + PayPal + a little extra for time in imaging and annoyances of e-commerce.
Makes sense.
Except for the fact that there are all sorts of coins for which CAC doesn’t have bids.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t watch those.
CAC will make an offer on anything with an email or phone call.
Even if so, that’s not remotely similar to having bids posted for coins they want to purchase. And I don’t think that has any meaningful bearing on the number of watchers for CAC coins on EBay
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks, that never crossed my mind.
As was subsequently pointed out, however, that won’t tell you if a particular coin has been submitted and rejected.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To op:
I think it’s impossible to try predict future market or involvement of individuals. I favor diversified investment vs one entity, individual or stock.
Numismatic investment has its risks....Look how the 50-D nickel faded from glory or the 89 crash bankrupted many. On the flip side look how well bullion did this year. Will it slide back down or go up? Knowledge and experience is king in determining success in this arena.
Ones faith should be in themselves to ride the waves and do well with RCI based on skills buying and selling. Nobody is going to be the bank for you or absorb your risk. I believe many things after covid will reposition themselves and anybody’s guess. A mine will only be useful to the owner until all the money has been wrung out of it.
There doesn't necessarily need to be another service for the analogy to hold. Maybe 20 years from now we'll be debating between the old conservative green stickers versus the newer "loose as a goose" iteration in existence. Many people, including one of Legend's principals, have noted that there is some sticker inflation.
Thinking out loud... I wonder how the premium would work for an OGH with an old CAC sticker. Do you only get one price bonus or two (i.e. bump for the OGH and a bump for the old sticker above and beyond the recent iteration sticker)?
I'm having trouble seeing a negative to having coins approved by an expert.
The service doesn't have to be perfect to be good for the market. Looking at the glass half full:
Coins are worth more with a sticker.
The market has accepted the service as a whole.
Coins that are exceptional for the grade in each series are viewable examples as a higher standard for novice collectors to appreciate and learn from, another benefit for the marketplace.
CAC is an independent market maker, creating additional demand.
Enjoy...I'm heading over to the dark side
My Saint Set
come on over
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Welcome to the Forum! Hope to hear a lot more from you over time, as you recognize and clearly verbalize common sense ideas and facts.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This thread went off track a little ways, although I really appreciate (most of) the discussion.
The different responses caused me to think about my original question, which now seems flawed, and sparked some PM and even email exchanges which helped me connect and separate some of my thoughts and questions.
I feel like I understand this service, and the place it has cemented in the market a little better, and all the information I have so far should help me with how I will proceed, and what questions I still need and want to ask (which I will probably do via PM and email after the eye-rolls this thread seemed to invoke).
Thank you all for helping make this place worthwhile!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Todd, that’s why I wrote at the very beginning of this thread “OK, here we go again”, recognizing the sensitivity of this topic. But while quite lengthy, I believe this thread has been healthy. I’m surprised in a positive way that it’s been allowed to continue this long, as many of these threads go “poof”. Apparently, we’ve behaved ourselves well enough for this to continue.
Your intelligence, politeness, and open-mindedness have shown through since the beginning, regardless of your current thoughts and positions. Thank you!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
+1
It's only two pages long. We aren't that bad.
+1
On a final note, since you seem to be new to CAC, it can be a very useful learning tool. If you make a submission and request for feedback, John will send you a note with feedback. In that sense, submitting sooner than later can be beneficial. I recommend that all collectors open a submission account.
Thanks and thanks to the host, wealth of info and knowledge here.
Stepped in what?
This is no longer true, my recent submission I requested feedback on three of twenty coins and was told none would be given.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Do they still award account credits for coins that fail for collector members?
Yes
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.