If I have just one request for @tradedollarnut, it would be to fill in the comments for the coins without them on the Registry Set. I love reading an owner's notes on their experience of each coin.
I would certainly pay for a nice printed catalog of this sale, which would likely contain a lot of the information you mention above.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
WOW , what a collection .
Very brave to put that caliber of a collection up for auction in this Covid-19 world/economy .
I imagine there will be some strong reserves on these coins ?
Bruce owns a nice chunk of Legend. Theoretically, he could just bid on his own coins if they are not seeing the action he wants, and buy them back for a nominal fee. Legend could just say they were sold to an "anonymous collector" or something.
The coins might very well be reserved. That wouldn't be anything unusual at any major auction firm. But it seems very unlikely that they would pretend something sold when it didn't.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
To answer a previous question, I don’t believe that we are planning on any reserves...though there will be 3 coins with (reasonable) opening bid levels.
@1northcoin said:
Interesting to see Regency as the venue. Best to Bruce.
Why? I probably would do the same if I was a partner.
Yeah, I agree!
How would it look if you use a competitor's auction house??
Beyond the optics, X percent of $15M+ is a considerable chunk o' change, for all X.
That assumes the hammer price ends up the same at both venues. I'm not sure one of the other houses wouldn't basically do these at -15% or more just to use them to highlight an auction and have bragging rights to selling "the most expensive US coin yada yada yada"
Do you seriously think the choice of auction venue will have any impact on the realized prices of those coins? I don't.
It could. Legends is one of the Big 3, but prices realized at a major show can be different than prices realized from a minor show or a stand alone auction. You do recall that a few years ago JA himself bought and flipped an 1804 dollar for...I forget...was it a $500k profit in a matter of weeks.
Beautiful coins - I hope he does well with the sale. Will have to make plans to attend, if there are no travel restrictions.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
@1northcoin said:
Interesting to see Regency as the venue. Best to Bruce.
Why? I probably would do the same if I was a partner.
Yeah, I agree!
How would it look if you use a competitor's auction house??
Beyond the optics, X percent of $15M+ is a considerable chunk o' change, for all X.
That assumes the hammer price ends up the same at both venues. I'm not sure one of the other houses wouldn't basically do these at -15% or more just to use them to highlight an auction and have bragging rights to selling "the most expensive US coin yada yada yada"
Do you seriously think the choice of auction venue will have any impact on the realized prices of those coins? I don't.
It could. Legends is one of the Big 3, but prices realized at a major show can be different than prices realized from a minor show or a stand alone auction. You do recall that a few years ago JA himself bought and flipped an 1804 dollar for...I forget...was it a $500k profit in a matter of weeks.
WOW , what a collection .
Very brave to put that caliber of a collection up for auction in this Covid-19 world/economy .
I imagine there will be some strong reserves on these coins ?
Bruce owns a nice chunk of Legend. Theoretically, he could just bid on his own coins if they are not seeing the action he wants, and buy them back for a nominal fee. Legend could just say they were sold to an "anonymous collector" or something.
There is virtually no risk here for Bruce given the extant, extensive relationship with Legend that has him listed second on their website under Principals, only behind Laura herself.
To answer a previous question, I don’t believe that we are planning on any reserves...though there will be 3 coins with (reasonable) opening bid levels.
The collection includes the finest set of Early Mint State Dollars ever assembled, including two incredibly rare eight and seven figure coins, the 1794 $1 SP66, and the 1804 $1 PR65.
Not that I have a clue but I'd hazard a guess that TDN probably knows already who the winning bidder on at least a few of them might be. That said, profitability seems logical.
I am surprised the 1804 is up for grabs. That's the one I'd keep for a while longer but then again, that's the coin that get's the deep pocketed bidders in the door I guess.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
Just learned from a family member residing in Nevada that the state has just regressed from Stage 3 to Stage 2. Hopefully that trend will reverse before October so attendance in person is without restrictions.
@Lakesammman said:
Beautiful coins - I hope he does well with the sale. Will have to make plans to attend, if there are no travel restrictions.
Nevada has not hit stage 3 yet, we are still in stage 2, where we have been for around three weeks.
@1northcoin said:
Just learned from a family member residing in Nevada that the state has just regressed from Stage 3 to Stage 2. Hopefully that trend will reverse before October so attendance in person is without restrictions.
@Lakesammman said:
Beautiful coins - I hope he does well with the sale. Will have to make plans to attend, if there are no travel restrictions.
if a 1,000 members pools in around $10,000 each, we could win the 1794 $1 and rotate ownership every month. Who wants to underwrite this completely non risky investment grade transaction.
@cccoins said:
Nevada has not hit stage 3 yet, we are still in stage 2, where we have been for around three weeks.
@1northcoin said:
Just learned from a family member residing in Nevada that the state has just regressed from Stage 3 to Stage 2. Hopefully that trend will reverse before October so attendance in person is without restrictions.
@Lakesammman said:
Beautiful coins - I hope he does well with the sale. Will have to make plans to attend, if there are no travel restrictions.
Thanks for the boots on the ground report. I will have to check back though it may have been for a particular city rather than for the entire state that the step back was being referenced.
I live here in Philadelphia, and regularly walk past the site of the original U.S. Mint and also the site of the President's House, where George Washington lived, and they are barely more than a block away from each other. I could easily imagine then-Mint Director David Rittenhouse having this struck, and carrying it over to Washington for his look-see, or to Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson. Is there any recent scholarship that has established if this dollar was shown around in such a fashion? The PCGS Coin Facts seem to indicate no evidence exists.
@ernie11 said:
I live here in Philadelphia, and regularly walk past the site of the original U.S. Mint and also the site of the President's House, where George Washington lived, and they are barely more than a block away from each other. I could easily imagine then-Mint Director David Rittenhouse having this struck, and carrying it over to Washington for his look-see, or to Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson. Is there any recent scholarship that has established if this dollar was shown around in such a fashion? The PCGS Coin Facts seem to indicate no evidence exists.
Of equal interest would be learning of "any recent scholarship" that the 1794 $1 SP66 was in fact the first one minted. If I recall correctly, the terminology initially was to the effect that it may have been the first one minted.
WOW , what a collection .
Very brave to put that caliber of a collection up for auction in this Covid-19 world/economy .
I imagine there will be some strong reserves on these coins ?
Bruce owns a nice chunk of Legend. Theoretically, he could just bid on his own coins if they are not seeing the action he wants, and buy them back for a nominal fee. Legend could just say they were sold to an "anonymous collector" or something.
There is virtually no risk here for Bruce given the extant, extensive relationship with Legend that has him listed second on their website under Principals, only behind Laura herself.
Auction companies do not reveal the identity of the winning bidder.
Good point. How do we know if a coin actually sold? Could the owner anonymously bid up his coin and the price guides then show the coin at a much higher value?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Good point. How do we know if a coin actually sold? Could the owner anonymously bid up his coin and the price guides then show the coin at a much higher value?
@ernie11 said:
I live here in Philadelphia, and regularly walk past the site of the original U.S. Mint and also the site of the President's House, where George Washington lived, and they are barely more than a block away from each other. I could easily imagine then-Mint Director David Rittenhouse having this struck, and carrying it over to Washington for his look-see, or to Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson. Is there any recent scholarship that has established if this dollar was shown around in such a fashion? The PCGS Coin Facts seem to indicate no evidence exists.
Of equal interest would be learning of "any recent scholarship" that the 1794 $1 SP66 was in fact the first one minted. If I recall correctly, the terminology initially was to the effect that it may have been the first one minted.
No such documentation. Washington's interest in the Mint was overblown by later writers. The coin speaks for itself and from a technical point of view is clearly a special piece. Congrats to all involved.
WOW , what a collection .
Very brave to put that caliber of a collection up for auction in this Covid-19 world/economy .
I imagine there will be some strong reserves on these coins ?
Bruce owns a nice chunk of Legend. Theoretically, he could just bid on his own coins if they are not seeing the action he wants, and buy them back for a nominal fee. Legend could just say they were sold to an "anonymous collector" or something.
There is virtually no risk here for Bruce given the extant, extensive relationship with Legend that has him listed second on their website under Principals, only behind Laura herself.
Auction companies do not reveal the identity of the winning bidder.
Good point. How do we know if a coin actually sold? Could the owner anonymously bid up his coin and the price guides then show the coin at a much higher value?
Some dealers do this all the time. I will not mention any names, but I am aware of a particular event where one dealer bid on another dealers coin as a favor to him, and with the help of another third party, bid it up to an unrealistic price of about 40% over guide, over $10,000. After winning it, the dealer then sold it back to the other dealer for no profit, and that dealer in turn flipped it at a "loss" that was actually a profit, marketing to the collector who bought it as a piece he was caught in a bad spot with, and would give him a "great deal" at $9,700, and that he was "losing his shirt" when his actual cost basis was closer to $8,000 all in, including the premium kept by the auction house.
The two dealers traded this kind of business on their examples for sale at a major auction house.
I do not think any shenanigans like this will go on with TDN's dollars, for what it is worth, but the coin auction world is a shady, shady place with some very fake results out there, designed to manipulate and deceive collectors into overpaying for things.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@ernie11 said:
I live here in Philadelphia, and regularly walk past the site of the original U.S. Mint and also the site of the President's House, where George Washington lived, and they are barely more than a block away from each other. I could easily imagine then-Mint Director David Rittenhouse having this struck, and carrying it over to Washington for his look-see, or to Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson. Is there any recent scholarship that has established if this dollar was shown around in such a fashion? The PCGS Coin Facts seem to indicate no evidence exists.
Of equal interest would be learning of "any recent scholarship" that the 1794 $1 SP66 was in fact the first one minted. If I recall correctly, the terminology initially was to the effect that it may have been the first one minted.
No such documentation. Washington's interest in the Mint was overblown by later writers. The coin speaks for itself and from a technical point of view is clearly a special piece. Congrats to all involved.
It's certainly a very nice coin but I doubt it's the first silver dollar ever struck by the US Mint especially considering the lack of any documentation. There are several adjustment marks on this coin. If you were going to make a specially struck coin to save for prosperity wouldn't you select a perfect planchet without any file adjustment marks for this special strike? I think this coin is special because it's been carefully preserved for 226 years and it's one of the finest know. It literally escaped the ravages of time. This coin can stand on its own merits and doesn't need any unverified stories to enhance its desirability.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There’s even less transparency at an auction today than ten years ago with most people staying at home and bidding live online. I can’t speak for Heritage but Stacks allows consigners to bid on coins they’re selling. Laura has previously stated in an older thread that she will bid on a Legend coin if she thinks it’s too cheap. I highly doubt there will be any monkey business in a high profile sale like this with 7 and 8 figure coins.
@tradedollarnut said:
Sorry but die state and the silver plug argue that it is indeed the first struck. Martin certainly showed it’s the only known candidate
I think the consensus is that it’s the earliest of all known pieces. That doesn’t make it the first off the dies, but it’s certainly possible.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@ernie11 said:
I live here in Philadelphia, and regularly walk past the site of the original U.S. Mint and also the site of the President's House, where George Washington lived, and they are barely more than a block away from each other. I could easily imagine then-Mint Director David Rittenhouse having this struck, and carrying it over to Washington for his look-see, or to Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson. Is there any recent scholarship that has established if this dollar was shown around in such a fashion? The PCGS Coin Facts seem to indicate no evidence exists.
Of equal interest would be learning of "any recent scholarship" that the 1794 $1 SP66 was in fact the first one minted. If I recall correctly, the terminology initially was to the effect that it may have been the first one minted.
No such documentation. Washington's interest in the Mint was overblown by later writers. The coin speaks for itself and from a technical point of view is clearly a special piece. Congrats to all involved.
It's certainly a very nice coin but I doubt it's the first silver dollar ever struck by the US Mint especially considering the lack of any documentation. There are several adjustment marks on this coin. If you were going to make a specially struck coin to save for prosperity wouldn't you select a perfect planchet without any file adjustment marks for this special strike? I think this coin is special because it's been carefully preserved for 226 years and it's one of the finest know. It literally escaped the ravages of time. This coin can stand on its own merits and doesn't need any unverified stories to enhance its desirability.
But then if it was without argument the first silver dollar struck by the U.S. Mint I can see enhanced interest by others outside of the traditional coin collectors as bidders.
@Zoins said:
Imagine if it was engraved saying it was the first?
The following is the first medal struck on the US Mint's first steam powered coining press.
Nice. The pedigree of this steam press token (Mint Director Robert M. Patterson) is kinda convincing also.
I can't recall if this was known the last time the 1794 sold, but a few years ago the warrant for the 1,758 1794 dollars was located in the Historical Society of PA, confirming that all of these were struck on Rittenhouse's personal account.
@tradedollarnut said:
Sorry but die state and the silver plug argue that it is indeed the first struck. Martin certainly showed it’s the only known candidate
I think the consensus is that it’s the earliest of all known pieces. That doesn’t make it the first off the dies, but it’s certainly possible.
Martin had a suggestion for proving it...will definitely follow up on it. Yes, if you think that the Mint would burnish a planchet and make a specimen strike in the middle of a production run and save the 2nd or 3rd or 5th piece struck but allow the first pieces struck to be utilized and subsequently destroyed then what you say is possible.
My personal opinion is that it wasn’t even part of the production run - it was created earlier as a specimen to show the feasibility of the silver plug method of weight adjustment. I believe it too much of a stretch to think the die became canted during the run - it’s more likely in my mind that it was set that way from the beginning.
Then again, there is a reference to an official ceremony and presentation coin being sent to President Washington:
“On Oct. 15, 1794, there was a special ceremony honoring the first regular coinage of silver under the new government. In the hurry to begin coinage, however, it was found that the largest press available was not really powerful enough to strike silver dollars all that well. Moreover, the dies were slightly out of parallel, meaning that struck dollars would have areas, especially on the lower left of the obverse and the corresponding part of the reverse, where the design did not come up properly.
The President was unable to attend this special event, being absent from Philadelphia, but Secretary of State Edmund Randolph did.
At the end of the day on the 15th, Chief Coiner Voight delivered exactly 1,758 silver dollars to Mint Treasurer Tristam Dalton, who had the legal duty of paying out the coins to the depositors. In this case, however, the coins did not travel very far because they were all given to David Rittenhouse. The director went to some lengths to send specimens to various parts of the country, at his own expense, so that others might see what the Mint was doing.
On the following day, Secretary Randolph penned a note to the President which read in part that, “The silver coin of the U.S. bears upon its face so much neatness and simplicity, that I cannot restrain myself from transmitting a dollar for your inspection.””
.
.
.
.
.
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So Secretary Edmond attended the ceremony and subsequently sent a coin to Washington. Not too much of a stretch to imagine that he was presented with a specimen and then forwarded it to the President.
Why is it necessary to insist that the 1794 dollar is the first off the dies? When the percentage of survivors is so small compared to the original mintage, there is simply no way of knowing. In short order, we’ve gone from “it might be” to a certainty that “it is”. I guarantee that this will be pointed out after the sale, the consequence being a further undermining of the public’s confidence in this wonderful hobby...
@Pumpkinhead said:
Why is it necessary to insist that the 1794 dollar is the first off the dies? When the percentage of survivors is so small compared to the original mintage, there is simply no way of knowing. In short order, we’ve gone from “it might be” to a certainty that “it is”. I guarantee that this will be pointed out after the sale, the consequence being a further undermining of the public’s confidence in this wonderful hobby...
Fact: it’s the first known off the dies of any remaining example
Fact: it’s the same exact die state as the copper pattern
Fact: it’s the only known silver plug for the date
Fact: it’s the only known proof like for the date
Fact: the planchet was burnished before striking - indicating it was a specimen
Sooooo.....human nature being what it is....do you burnish and specimen strike the first coin off the dies or the tenth coin? If a dignitary is present, does he receive the 5th coin or the first? Do you save the 15th coin or the first? Do you interrupt a production run to wipe and polish the dies and insert a special planchet....or do you do that first?
Human nature combined with the facts suggests it was the first coin.
@Pumpkinhead said:
Why is it necessary to insist that the 1794 dollar is the first off the dies? When the percentage of survivors is so small compared to the original mintage, there is simply no way of knowing. In short order, we’ve gone from “it might be” to a certainty that “it is”. I guarantee that this will be pointed out after the sale, the consequence being a further undermining of the public’s confidence in this wonderful hobby...
There actually is a way of knowing. The indisputable facts are:
1) Coining dies suffer damage when striking, with those die damages visible on the coins they struck.
2) The progression of striking multiple coins creates more damage to the dies, such that a later struck coin may display more damage to the die versus a coin struck earlier.
3) On the basis of die damage, in my research, I have identified 5 distinct die states of the struck coins.
4) Aside from the J-19 1794 dollar pattern in the Smithsonian, the Morelan 1794 dollar is the ONLY know specimen that survives with the attributes of the first die state of the production.
5) The Morelan 1794 Dollar is the only known specimen that survives with flawless deep cameo fields, such that PCGS has labeled it as a "SP" for Special Strike.
6) The Morelan 1794 Dollar is the only known specimen that survives with a silver plug in the center that enables the coin to be fully struck on both sides.
Now if your thinking of how you might determine which 2020 Lincoln Cent was struck before others, I agree with you. You cannot identify the first Lincoln Cent unless you were at the mint at the time.
Or, if your thinking of the "Special Strikes" from 1964 to 1967, a Mint State Kennedy for 1964 in MS68 goes for $8k, whereas the SMS version from 1964 in SMS68 goes for $160K. Both are TWO different series.
You simply can't claim a Proof/SP/SMS is nothing more than a ordinary MS coin!
I simply believe if you stick with “only known” and “might be”, you are on much safer ground. Because, when the sale of this coin is covered by the non-numismatic press, the “hook” for those reporters will be that this is the “first” produced by the new US Mint. The media (or parts of it), being what it is today, will challenge that assumption... And a much needed positive story about the numismatic community will turn into a net negative one...
@Pumpkinhead said:
I simply believe if you stick with “only known” and “might be”, you are on much safer ground. Because, when the sale of this coin is covered by the non-numismatic press, the “hook” for those reporters will be that this is the “first” produced by the new US Mint. The media (or parts of it), being what it is today, will challenge that assumption... And a much needed positive story about the numismatic community will turn into a net negative one...
The media digging into this would be good for numismatics. The coin speaks for itself. TDN and Cardinal have a credible story. I'm not 100% there myself, but there are good reasons to believe what they do. I'd welcome a thorough treatment from any qualified reporter. It's a great coin and a great story either way.
The reality is the media doesn't do nuance. They want the quick hit. "First silver dollar sells for $10M." That's it.
The latest comments by @tradedollarnut and @cardinal were extremely interesting and educational to me. This is mostly information that I never knew before and they make a very compelling argument that I mostly agree with. Regardless of whether it is the FIRST US dollar coin or not; the piece is very unique and on a plane, all by itself, and is certainly the finest known. The strike and proof-like qualities only add to its list of beneficial factors. I suspect that it will do very well come October. If it were mine; I would hold onto this trophy for a very long time. There is no other coin quite like it.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
@Pumpkinhead said:
Why is it necessary to insist that the 1794 dollar is the first off the dies? When the percentage of survivors is so small compared to the original mintage, there is simply no way of knowing. In short order, we’ve gone from “it might be” to a certainty that “it is”. I guarantee that this will be pointed out after the sale, the consequence being a further undermining of the public’s confidence in this wonderful hobby...
Fact: it’s the first known off the dies of any remaining example
Fact: it’s the same exact die state as the copper pattern
Fact: it’s the only known silver plug for the date
Fact: it’s the only known proof like for the date
Fact: the planchet was burnished before striking - indicating it was a specimen
Sooooo.....human nature being what it is....do you burnish and specimen strike the first coin off the dies or the tenth coin? If a dignitary is present, does he receive the 5th coin or the first? Do you save the 15th coin or the first? Do you interrupt a production run to wipe and polish the dies and insert a special planchet....or do you do that first?
Human nature combined with the facts suggests it was the first coin.
I am intrigued by the silver plug fact. Too bad Roger Burdette is no longer posting as I am sure he could add historical information with regard to the use of plugs in the Mint's manufacturing of coins that would be of interest.
@1northcoin said:
I am intrigued by the silver plug fact. Too bad Roger Burdette is no longer posting as I am sure he could add historical information with regard to the use of plugs in the Mint's manufacturing of coins that would be of interest.
On the 1794 piece the plug was added to center of the coin to raise the weight of the planchet to legal spec.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@1northcoin said:
I am intrigued by the silver plug fact. Too bad Roger Burdette is no longer posting as I am sure he could add historical information with regard to the use of plugs in the Mint's manufacturing of coins that would be of interest.
On the 1794 piece the plug was added to center of the coin to raise the weight of the planchet to legal spec.
m
Thanks, but either Bruce or Cardinal had suggested that adding the plug made for a better strike on both sides but not clear just how or why. I guess having more metal for the presses to squeeze could be advantageous in filling in all the details but if the weight needed to be raised on the first planchet wouldn't it also need to be raised on the others in the same batch or maybe they just stopped with the first one and sent the rest of the planchets back to be remade heavier?
Also for other coins of that era do we know if plugs were commonly used on more than just the first struck coin(s), and if so how does the existence of a plug add to the likelihood of the subject coin being the first? Maybe only the first coin(s) [actually planchets] needed to be weight adjusted and not subsequent ones for some reason?
The only way to answer some of these questions would be from mint records. That is where Roger's help could be invaluable.
Comments
I'm looking forward to this sale! Hope I can get to Vegas for it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I would certainly pay for a nice printed catalog of this sale, which would likely contain a lot of the information you mention above.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
The coins might very well be reserved. That wouldn't be anything unusual at any major auction firm. But it seems very unlikely that they would pretend something sold when it didn't.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Depending on the opening price, I'm going to bid on the big one just to say I did.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
I would not be surprised if some of these coins were won by a foreign bidder and taken across the pond.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
https://coinweek.com/auctions-news/1794-dollar-legend-auctions-to-sell-most-valuable-us-coin-in-october/
To answer a previous question, I don’t believe that we are planning on any reserves...though there will be 3 coins with (reasonable) opening bid levels.
It could. Legends is one of the Big 3, but prices realized at a major show can be different than prices realized from a minor show or a stand alone auction. You do recall that a few years ago JA himself bought and flipped an 1804 dollar for...I forget...was it a $500k profit in a matter of weeks.
Beautiful coins - I hope he does well with the sale. Will have to make plans to attend, if there are no travel restrictions.
And who do you think bought that 1804 dollar???
With regard to selling and its timing, such remarkable coins operate in another dimension. I expect Bruce will do very well here.
Much good luck, Bruce. I hope all's well.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Auction companies do not reveal the identity of the winning bidder.
The collection includes the finest set of Early Mint State Dollars ever assembled, including two incredibly rare eight and seven figure coins, the 1794 $1 SP66, and the 1804 $1 PR65.
Correction
Not that I have a clue but I'd hazard a guess that TDN probably knows already who the winning bidder on at least a few of them might be. That said, profitability seems logical.
I am surprised the 1804 is up for grabs. That's the one I'd keep for a while longer but then again, that's the coin that get's the deep pocketed bidders in the door I guess.
Just learned from a family member residing in Nevada that the state has just regressed from Stage 3 to Stage 2. Hopefully that trend will reverse before October so attendance in person is without restrictions.
Nevada has not hit stage 3 yet, we are still in stage 2, where we have been for around three weeks.
if a 1,000 members pools in around $10,000 each, we could win the 1794 $1 and rotate ownership every month. Who wants to underwrite this completely non risky investment grade transaction.
www.paradimecoins.com - Specializing in Top Pop Type PCGS CAC coins. Subscribe To Our NEWPs Mailing List
Thanks for the boots on the ground report. I will have to check back though it may have been for a particular city rather than for the entire state that the step back was being referenced.
I live here in Philadelphia, and regularly walk past the site of the original U.S. Mint and also the site of the President's House, where George Washington lived, and they are barely more than a block away from each other. I could easily imagine then-Mint Director David Rittenhouse having this struck, and carrying it over to Washington for his look-see, or to Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson. Is there any recent scholarship that has established if this dollar was shown around in such a fashion? The PCGS Coin Facts seem to indicate no evidence exists.
Of equal interest would be learning of "any recent scholarship" that the 1794 $1 SP66 was in fact the first one minted. If I recall correctly, the terminology initially was to the effect that it may have been the first one minted.
Good point. How do we know if a coin actually sold? Could the owner anonymously bid up his coin and the price guides then show the coin at a much higher value?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Use of a proxy bidder is not uncommon...
That's for deep pockets. Who here is bidding?
Why an> @1northcoin said:
No such documentation. Washington's interest in the Mint was overblown by later writers. The coin speaks for itself and from a technical point of view is clearly a special piece. Congrats to all involved.
I guess catching the virus gets a guy thinking
Some dealers do this all the time. I will not mention any names, but I am aware of a particular event where one dealer bid on another dealers coin as a favor to him, and with the help of another third party, bid it up to an unrealistic price of about 40% over guide, over $10,000. After winning it, the dealer then sold it back to the other dealer for no profit, and that dealer in turn flipped it at a "loss" that was actually a profit, marketing to the collector who bought it as a piece he was caught in a bad spot with, and would give him a "great deal" at $9,700, and that he was "losing his shirt" when his actual cost basis was closer to $8,000 all in, including the premium kept by the auction house.
The two dealers traded this kind of business on their examples for sale at a major auction house.
I do not think any shenanigans like this will go on with TDN's dollars, for what it is worth, but the coin auction world is a shady, shady place with some very fake results out there, designed to manipulate and deceive collectors into overpaying for things.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
It's certainly a very nice coin but I doubt it's the first silver dollar ever struck by the US Mint especially considering the lack of any documentation. There are several adjustment marks on this coin. If you were going to make a specially struck coin to save for prosperity wouldn't you select a perfect planchet without any file adjustment marks for this special strike? I think this coin is special because it's been carefully preserved for 226 years and it's one of the finest know. It literally escaped the ravages of time. This coin can stand on its own merits and doesn't need any unverified stories to enhance its desirability.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sorry but die state and the silver plug argue that it is indeed the first struck. Martin certainly showed it’s the only known candidate
@tradedollarnut Are the second, third, fourth, and fifth Trade Dollars struck going to be in the sale to compliment the 1794?
Unlikely
Yes
Imagine if it was engraved saying it was the first?
The following is the first medal struck on the US Mint's first steam powered coining press.
There’s even less transparency at an auction today than ten years ago with most people staying at home and bidding live online. I can’t speak for Heritage but Stacks allows consigners to bid on coins they’re selling. Laura has previously stated in an older thread that she will bid on a Legend coin if she thinks it’s too cheap. I highly doubt there will be any monkey business in a high profile sale like this with 7 and 8 figure coins.
I think the consensus is that it’s the earliest of all known pieces. That doesn’t make it the first off the dies, but it’s certainly possible.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
But then if it was without argument the first silver dollar struck by the U.S. Mint I can see enhanced interest by others outside of the traditional coin collectors as bidders.
Nice. The pedigree of this steam press token (Mint Director Robert M. Patterson) is kinda convincing also.
I can't recall if this was known the last time the 1794 sold, but a few years ago the warrant for the 1,758 1794 dollars was located in the Historical Society of PA, confirming that all of these were struck on Rittenhouse's personal account.
Martin had a suggestion for proving it...will definitely follow up on it. Yes, if you think that the Mint would burnish a planchet and make a specimen strike in the middle of a production run and save the 2nd or 3rd or 5th piece struck but allow the first pieces struck to be utilized and subsequently destroyed then what you say is possible.
My personal opinion is that it wasn’t even part of the production run - it was created earlier as a specimen to show the feasibility of the silver plug method of weight adjustment. I believe it too much of a stretch to think the die became canted during the run - it’s more likely in my mind that it was set that way from the beginning.
Then again, there is a reference to an official ceremony and presentation coin being sent to President Washington:
“On Oct. 15, 1794, there was a special ceremony honoring the first regular coinage of silver under the new government. In the hurry to begin coinage, however, it was found that the largest press available was not really powerful enough to strike silver dollars all that well. Moreover, the dies were slightly out of parallel, meaning that struck dollars would have areas, especially on the lower left of the obverse and the corresponding part of the reverse, where the design did not come up properly.
The President was unable to attend this special event, being absent from Philadelphia, but Secretary of State Edmund Randolph did.
At the end of the day on the 15th, Chief Coiner Voight delivered exactly 1,758 silver dollars to Mint Treasurer Tristam Dalton, who had the legal duty of paying out the coins to the depositors. In this case, however, the coins did not travel very far because they were all given to David Rittenhouse. The director went to some lengths to send specimens to various parts of the country, at his own expense, so that others might see what the Mint was doing.
On the following day, Secretary Randolph penned a note to the President which read in part that, “The silver coin of the U.S. bears upon its face so much neatness and simplicity, that I cannot restrain myself from transmitting a dollar for your inspection.””
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So Secretary Edmond attended the ceremony and subsequently sent a coin to Washington. Not too much of a stretch to imagine that he was presented with a specimen and then forwarded it to the President.
https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/silver-dollars-of-1794-1795-were-illegal
Thanks. A most interesting read from Julian.
Why is it necessary to insist that the 1794 dollar is the first off the dies? When the percentage of survivors is so small compared to the original mintage, there is simply no way of knowing. In short order, we’ve gone from “it might be” to a certainty that “it is”. I guarantee that this will be pointed out after the sale, the consequence being a further undermining of the public’s confidence in this wonderful hobby...
Fact: it’s the first known off the dies of any remaining example
Fact: it’s the same exact die state as the copper pattern
Fact: it’s the only known silver plug for the date
Fact: it’s the only known proof like for the date
Fact: the planchet was burnished before striking - indicating it was a specimen
Sooooo.....human nature being what it is....do you burnish and specimen strike the first coin off the dies or the tenth coin? If a dignitary is present, does he receive the 5th coin or the first? Do you save the 15th coin or the first? Do you interrupt a production run to wipe and polish the dies and insert a special planchet....or do you do that first?
Human nature combined with the facts suggests it was the first coin.
There actually is a way of knowing. The indisputable facts are:
1) Coining dies suffer damage when striking, with those die damages visible on the coins they struck.
2) The progression of striking multiple coins creates more damage to the dies, such that a later struck coin may display more damage to the die versus a coin struck earlier.
3) On the basis of die damage, in my research, I have identified 5 distinct die states of the struck coins.
4) Aside from the J-19 1794 dollar pattern in the Smithsonian, the Morelan 1794 dollar is the ONLY know specimen that survives with the attributes of the first die state of the production.
5) The Morelan 1794 Dollar is the only known specimen that survives with flawless deep cameo fields, such that PCGS has labeled it as a "SP" for Special Strike.
6) The Morelan 1794 Dollar is the only known specimen that survives with a silver plug in the center that enables the coin to be fully struck on both sides.
Now if your thinking of how you might determine which 2020 Lincoln Cent was struck before others, I agree with you. You cannot identify the first Lincoln Cent unless you were at the mint at the time.
Or, if your thinking of the "Special Strikes" from 1964 to 1967, a Mint State Kennedy for 1964 in MS68 goes for $8k, whereas the SMS version from 1964 in SMS68 goes for $160K. Both are TWO different series.
You simply can't claim a Proof/SP/SMS is nothing more than a ordinary MS coin!
I simply believe if you stick with “only known” and “might be”, you are on much safer ground. Because, when the sale of this coin is covered by the non-numismatic press, the “hook” for those reporters will be that this is the “first” produced by the new US Mint. The media (or parts of it), being what it is today, will challenge that assumption... And a much needed positive story about the numismatic community will turn into a net negative one...
The media digging into this would be good for numismatics. The coin speaks for itself. TDN and Cardinal have a credible story. I'm not 100% there myself, but there are good reasons to believe what they do. I'd welcome a thorough treatment from any qualified reporter. It's a great coin and a great story either way.
The reality is the media doesn't do nuance. They want the quick hit. "First silver dollar sells for $10M." That's it.
The latest comments by @tradedollarnut and @cardinal were extremely interesting and educational to me. This is mostly information that I never knew before and they make a very compelling argument that I mostly agree with. Regardless of whether it is the FIRST US dollar coin or not; the piece is very unique and on a plane, all by itself, and is certainly the finest known. The strike and proof-like qualities only add to its list of beneficial factors. I suspect that it will do very well come October. If it were mine; I would hold onto this trophy for a very long time. There is no other coin quite like it.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Glad to see you stepping up to the Plate and defending your coin!
I am intrigued by the silver plug fact. Too bad Roger Burdette is no longer posting as I am sure he could add historical information with regard to the use of plugs in the Mint's manufacturing of coins that would be of interest.
On the 1794 piece the plug was added to center of the coin to raise the weight of the planchet to legal spec.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There are a lot of indicators that it could be the first silver dollar. It's certainly the first known silver dollar.
Any info to suggest it's not the first dollar struck seems to be conjecture.
Thanks, but either Bruce or Cardinal had suggested that adding the plug made for a better strike on both sides but not clear just how or why. I guess having more metal for the presses to squeeze could be advantageous in filling in all the details but if the weight needed to be raised on the first planchet wouldn't it also need to be raised on the others in the same batch or maybe they just stopped with the first one and sent the rest of the planchets back to be remade heavier?
Also for other coins of that era do we know if plugs were commonly used on more than just the first struck coin(s), and if so how does the existence of a plug add to the likelihood of the subject coin being the first? Maybe only the first coin(s) [actually planchets] needed to be weight adjusted and not subsequent ones for some reason?
The only way to answer some of these questions would be from mint records. That is where Roger's help could be invaluable.