I personally have no problem with calling it a "Specimen Strike." The Mint did make them back then. I have seen a 1799 Dollar that I would have absolutely no problem calling a flat-out "Proof," but if the concensus is that calling such extraordinary early pieces "Specimen Strikes" is preferable to "Proofs" (because some early Specimens are better than others) I have no problem with that.
I was initially one of the greatest critics of Contursi's assertion that this was the first struck 1794 dollar. But Martin's research showed it was definitively the earliest known surviving example. And it's obvious that the Mint took great care in its production - the planchet was definitely polished - how long did that take? If one takes the very logical stance that the first struck coin would be saved and be special, then this is the coin. Obviously, if one chooses to believe that the first struck coin was not saved and that sometime after the first coin was struck the Mint took this specially prepared planchet and created the Carter coin and then struck all the other known examples, then that is their perogative. However, it seems to me that latter is more of a stretch than the former.
I think the adjustment marks and plug actually add credence to it being one of the first struck, if not the first one struck. The planchet manufacture was not yet routine and they wanted to get the weight right.
@Pumpkinhead said:
I simply believe if you stick with “only known” and “might be”, you are on much safer ground. Because, when the sale of this coin is covered by the non-numismatic press, the “hook” for those reporters will be that this is the “first” produced by the new US Mint. The media (or parts of it), being what it is today, will challenge that assumption... And a much needed positive story about the numismatic community will turn into a net negative one...
The media digging into this would be good for numismatics. The coin speaks for itself. TDN and Cardinal have a credible story. I'm not 100% there myself, but there are good reasons to believe what they do. I'd welcome a thorough treatment from any qualified reporter. It's a great coin and a great story either way.
Was Steve Contursi the first that make the assertion the Morelan 1794 dollar was the first struck US dollar?
I'm also curious why the 1794 dollar isn't referred to as a Virgil Brand coin referred to with a named provenance? He seems to be one of the most famous prior owners of the coin. Is it because he had two 1794 dollars so saying simply Brand would be ambiguous?
For example, this used to be known as the Neil-Carter coin, but why not the Brand-Carter coin?
I believe @tradedollarnut has stated before that he considers this the Carter coin, but I didn't catch why.
Part fo my reasoning to ask whether it was Contursi who first postulated it was the first dollar struck, because ,if so, he could be the the "discoverer".
I have always believed this 1794 dollar was part of the Knoxville
Collection. Correct me if I’m wrong
But wasn’t it sold to Steve Contursi by Jay Parrino ?
I also believed the silver plug was unknown until Jay Parrino had pocession of the coin .
I believe @tradedollarnut has stated before that he considers this the Carter coin, but I didn't catch why.
Part fo my reasoning to ask whether it was Contursi who first postulated it was the first dollar struck, because ,if so, he could be the the "discoverer".
In the Amon Carter sale in 1984, Stacks (before they merged with other firms) stated their opinion that it was the firm position that "It is perfectly conceivable that this coin was the very first 1794 Silver Dollar struck!"
@privaterarecoincollector said:
I heard all coins have reserve prices, e.g. the 1794 Dollar 7 Million hammer reserve (+17.5%) and the 1804 Dollar 3.25 Million reserve (+17.5).
@privaterarecoincollector said:
I heard all coins have reserve prices, e.g. the 1794 Dollar 7 Million hammer reserve (+17.5%) and the 1804 Dollar 3.25 Million reserve (+17.5).
Are those examples or are they actually the reserves on those two coins ?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I believe @tradedollarnut has stated before that he considers this the Carter coin, but I didn't catch why.
Part fo my reasoning to ask whether it was Contursi who first postulated it was the first dollar struck, because ,if so, he could be the the "discoverer".
In the Amon Carter sale in 1984, Stacks (before they merged with other firms) stated their opinion that it was the firm position that "It is perfectly conceivable that this coin was the very first 1794 Silver Dollar struck!"
Very nice! Thanks for posting the lot description!
I wonder if Amon Carter knew this or if this was soley a Stack's assessment?
Referenicing the auction description attached to Cardinal's above post, It is interesting that it mentions Max Mehl described the Amon Carter silver dollar in 1947 as apparently being somewhat, although not wholly, prooflike in appearance.
I personally find it of more than passing interest (given that I presently own the specimen) that Mehl in his auction listing of what likewise may have been the first struck 1850 $20 Double Eagle addressed its prooflike surfaces as well. In his view it was without question prooflike. In 1949, two years later, Max Mehl spoke of the subject $20 Double Eagle stating, "I classify it as a brilliant semi-proof, almost equal to a brilliant proof."
Despite the two coins having been minted 56 years apart from each other, they may well share the distinction of being the first minted apart from the "Copper Proof" for the Dollar and the 1849 "Gold Proof(s)" for the 1850 $20 Double Eagle.
@privaterarecoincollector said:
I heard all coins have reserve prices, e.g. the 1794 Dollar 7 Million hammer reserve (+17.5%) and the 1804 Dollar 3.25 Million reserve (+17.5).
@privaterarecoincollector said:
I heard all coins have reserve prices, e.g. the 1794 Dollar 7 Million hammer reserve (+17.5%) and the 1804 Dollar 3.25 Million reserve (+17.5).
Are those examples or are they actually the reserves on those two coins ?
@1northcoin said:
Referenicing the auction description attached to Cardinal's above post, It is interesting that it mentions Max Mehl described the Amon Carter silver dollar in 1947 as apparently being somewhat, although not wholly, prooflike in appearance.
I personally find it of more than passing interest (given that I presently own the specimen) that Mehl in his auction listing of what likewise may have been the first struck 1850 $20 Double Eagle addressed its prooflike surfaces as well. In his view it was without question prooflike. In 1949, two years later, Max Mehl spoke of the subject $20 Double Eagle stating, "I classify it as a brilliant semi-proof, almost equal to a brilliant proof."
Despite the two coins having been minted 56 years apart from each other, they may well share the distinction of being the first minted apart from the "Copper Proof" for the Dollar and the 1849 "Gold Proof(s)" for the 1850 $20 Double Eagle.
Those are the only two reserves on the dollar coins. As I stated before, 3 coins from the entire consignment would have opening bids [or reserves, if you wish].
@tradedollarnut said:
Those are the only two reserves on the dollar coins. As I stated before, 3 coins from the entire consignment would have opening bids [or reserves, if you wish].
This means all other Dollars will be sold unreserved ?
@tradedollarnut said:
Those are the only two reserves on the dollar coins. As I stated before, 3 coins from the entire consignment would have opening bids [or reserves, if you wish].
This means all other Dollars will be sold unreserved ?
Best of luck, though you probably do not need it. I will buy all the Early dollars, private sale, if the terms are long enough(haha). If we cannot make the deal work, I will be at the sale with a thousand post dated checks.
@SSR said:
if a 1,000 members pools in around $10,000 each, we could win the 1794 $1 and rotate ownership every month. Who wants to underwrite this completely non risky investment grade transaction.
Ah...if you rotate ownership every month, it would take more than 80 years for everyone to get a turn. Who pays monthly shipping on a $10 million coin?
Best of luck, though you probably do not need it. I will buy all the Early dollars, private sale, if the terms are long enough(haha). If we cannot make the deal work, I will be at the sale with a thousand post dated checks.
dale
Great to see you post Dale!
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@RedCopper said:
I have always believed this 1794 dollar was part of the Knoxville
Collection. Correct me if I’m wrong
But wasn’t it sold to Steve Contursi by Jay Parrino ?
I also believed the silver plug was unknown until Jay Parrino had pocession of the coin .
Yes, JP sold it, presumably to Knoxville, and later resold it to SC.
The silver plug was never "unknown". You can't miss it. It's just that nobody cared about silver plugs on 1794 and 1795 Dollars (and 1795 Half Dollars) until sometime in the mid to late 90's, IIRC. And honestly, I still don't understood why the plugs are considered desirable. But they are.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@RedCopper said:
I have always believed this 1794 dollar was part of the Knoxville
Collection. Correct me if I’m wrong
But wasn’t it sold to Steve Contursi by Jay Parrino ?
I also believed the silver plug was unknown until Jay Parrino had pocession of the coin .
Yes, JP sold it, presumably to Knoxville, and later resold it to SC.
The silver plug was never "unknown". You can't miss it. It's just that nobody cared about silver plugs on 1794 and 1795 Dollars (and 1795 Half Dollars) until sometime in the mid to late 90's, IIRC. And honestly, I still don't understood why the plugs are considered desirable. But they are.
Now that you mention it, wasn't the expression, "Not worth a plugged nickel" something less than complimentary?
Edited to add:
OK thanks to all knowing Wikipedia I see there is something of a distinction here:
Etymology:
Some early United States coins (minted in the 18th and 19th centuries) were made with a small silver disc added to the center of the coin in the planchet (blank metal) before striking. This was done to increase the value of the metal in the coin up to the coin's face value. A plug nickel or plugged nickel is a nickel (now a five-cent coin, but originally a one-cent coin and later a three-cent coin) where the "plug" (center disc) has been removed, thus decreasing the metal value of the coin. People would often examine their change after a cash transaction to ensure they did not receive such a coin.
It would be great to include all your previous collections on that site as well, including Trade dollars, Seated dollars, Gobrecht dollars, 1913 nickels, etc. And it would be great to have a PDF catalog too.
You have a monumental collection and it would be great to have all the coins together with your notes and comments.
For those that have seen this coin in hand, how amazing is it? I'm struck by Jack Lee's comments as noted by Bruce in his Registry Set.
The Boston-Morelan specimen. Held for nearly two centuries in a Boston area family's collection. Famed dollar collector Jack Lee once called this the "only early dollar in true unc" than he had seen. It is wonderfully original with full flowing luster. The only distraction are a few fingerprints on the obverse that are translucent with the light. The reverse is full MS67 quality.
Somehow I don't think that true view does that coin justice!
@Zoins said:
For those that have seen this coin in hand, how amazing is it? I'm struck by Jack Lee's comments as noted by Bruce in his Registry Set.
The Boston-Morelan specimen. Held for nearly two centuries in a Boston area family's collection. Famed dollar collector Jack Lee once called this the "only early dollar in true unc" than he had seen. It is wonderfully original with full flowing luster. The only distraction are a few fingerprints on the obverse that are translucent with the light. The reverse is full MS67 quality.
Thanks. There's a bit to be desired with those videos but it does give some idea of the luster which is of course better than what the TV can provide. That being from 8 years ago, people do better coin videos with their iPhones on Instagram these days.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I could never put together a "collection" like these guys, good for them. I hope the sale is successful for all parties. The reason I say this is I think it helps the coin hobby as a whole even us little guys benefit in some ways. Good luck!
Hi Bruce. I would love to be able to see these coins in person, but I will not be able to make the trip. At some point, can you open the registry sets? Second best would to be able to see them there. Great success in the sale. These ultra rarities don’t appear that often.
The 1796 dollar in the set, is perhaps my personal favorite coin of all time. It was in an ngc holder when I first saw it and my jaw dropped. 100% all there and spectacular. I have never seen a 1796 that even comes close to this one.
@Currin said:
Hi Bruce. I would love to be able to see these coins in person, but I will not be able to make the trip. At some point, can you open the registry sets? Second best would to be able to see them there. Great success in the sale. These ultra rarities don’t appear that often.
Comments
I was looking for this one but didn't find it
Well that would be one way to preserve the pedigree, to add a T and N.
Here's an oldie but goodie thread on the Morelan 1794 dollar:
Is the Cardinal 1794 Dollar the first dollar struck or not?
Some quotes:
@CaptHenway said:
@tradedollarnut said:
@EagleEye said:
And my favorite:
@segoja said:
Was Steve Contursi the first that make the assertion the Morelan 1794 dollar was the first struck US dollar?
I'm also curious why the 1794 dollar isn't referred to as a Virgil Brand coin referred to with a named provenance? He seems to be one of the most famous prior owners of the coin. Is it because he had two 1794 dollars so saying simply Brand would be ambiguous?
For example, this used to be known as the Neil-Carter coin, but why not the Brand-Carter coin?
Why not the Brand - Neil - Carter - Mr. Eureka - Contursi - Cardinal - Morelan coin?
In the end, it probably comes down to who owned it the longest............ and who "discovered" it.
Greg Reynolds / @Analyst called it the Carter-Lustig-Cardinal coin in 2014.
I believe @tradedollarnut has stated before that he considers this the Carter coin, but I didn't catch why.
Part fo my reasoning to ask whether it was Contursi who first postulated it was the first dollar struck, because ,if so, he could be the the "discoverer".
I have always believed this 1794 dollar was part of the Knoxville
Collection. Correct me if I’m wrong
But wasn’t it sold to Steve Contursi by Jay Parrino ?
I also believed the silver plug was unknown until Jay Parrino had pocession of the coin .
In the Amon Carter sale in 1984, Stacks (before they merged with other firms) stated their opinion that it was the firm position that "It is perfectly conceivable that this coin was the very first 1794 Silver Dollar struck!"
I heard all coins have reserve prices, e.g. the 1794 Dollar 7 Million hammer reserve (+17.5%) and the 1804 Dollar 3.25 Million reserve (+17.5).
Are those examples or are they actually the reserves on those two coins ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Very nice! Thanks for posting the lot description!
I wonder if Amon Carter knew this or if this was soley a Stack's assessment?
Referenicing the auction description attached to Cardinal's above post, It is interesting that it mentions Max Mehl described the Amon Carter silver dollar in 1947 as apparently being somewhat, although not wholly, prooflike in appearance.
I personally find it of more than passing interest (given that I presently own the specimen) that Mehl in his auction listing of what likewise may have been the first struck 1850 $20 Double Eagle addressed its prooflike surfaces as well. In his view it was without question prooflike. In 1949, two years later, Max Mehl spoke of the subject $20 Double Eagle stating, "I classify it as a brilliant semi-proof, almost equal to a brilliant proof."
Despite the two coins having been minted 56 years apart from each other, they may well share the distinction of being the first minted apart from the "Copper Proof" for the Dollar and the 1849 "Gold Proof(s)" for the 1850 $20 Double Eagle.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1039069/170th-anniversary-of-u-s-s-1st-20-circulated-gold-and-birth-of-the-gold-rush-town-of-eureka-ca
I heard these will be the actual reserves.
It would be great to pair the coins together!
Those are the only two reserves on the dollar coins. As I stated before, 3 coins from the entire consignment would have opening bids [or reserves, if you wish].
I see nothing wrong with reserves. This caliber of coins is worth assuring some level of legitimate interest and immunity from any economic blip.
No nothing wrong, just important to know.
This means all other Dollars will be sold unreserved ?
Correct.
Bruce,
Best of luck, though you probably do not need it. I will buy all the Early dollars, private sale, if the terms are long enough(haha). If we cannot make the deal work, I will be at the sale with a thousand post dated checks.
dale
Perused the Regency Auction last night. Beautiful stuff TDN. So much for the boutique auction though, I scrolled through 54 pages.
https://spark.adobe.com/page/ReIR8WRjHHol6/
Very nice
Not sure if there are enough coins to justify it, but a hardbound catalog of the collection/sale would be nice to own.
Ah...if you rotate ownership every month, it would take more than 80 years for everyone to get a turn. Who pays monthly shipping on a $10 million coin?
Great to see you post Dale!
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Me too, my fortune went down the toilet when that market tanked.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Yes, JP sold it, presumably to Knoxville, and later resold it to SC.
The silver plug was never "unknown". You can't miss it. It's just that nobody cared about silver plugs on 1794 and 1795 Dollars (and 1795 Half Dollars) until sometime in the mid to late 90's, IIRC. And honestly, I still don't understood why the plugs are considered desirable. But they are.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Now that you mention it, wasn't the expression, "Not worth a plugged nickel" something less than complimentary?
Edited to add:
OK thanks to all knowing Wikipedia I see there is something of a distinction here:
Etymology:
Some early United States coins (minted in the 18th and 19th centuries) were made with a small silver disc added to the center of the coin in the planchet (blank metal) before striking. This was done to increase the value of the metal in the coin up to the coin's face value. A plug nickel or plugged nickel is a nickel (now a five-cent coin, but originally a one-cent coin and later a three-cent coin) where the "plug" (center disc) has been removed, thus decreasing the metal value of the coin. People would often examine their change after a cash transaction to ensure they did not receive such a coin.
Some amazing 18th c. type coins in the sale along with the dollars!
It would be great to include all your previous collections on that site as well, including Trade dollars, Seated dollars, Gobrecht dollars, 1913 nickels, etc. And it would be great to have a PDF catalog too.
You have a monumental collection and it would be great to have all the coins together with your notes and comments.
For those that have seen this coin in hand, how amazing is it? I'm struck by Jack Lee's comments as noted by Bruce in his Registry Set.
Somehow I don't think that true view does that coin justice!
The fingerprints are darker than the pic shows but the luster and colors are out of this world
It would be cool to see a video of that coin!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1799-1-7x6-stars-ms66-pcgs-b-5-bb-157-r2-pcgs-6878-/a/1166-3292.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Thanks. There's a bit to be desired with those videos but it does give some idea of the luster which is of course better than what the TV can provide. That being from 8 years ago, people do better coin videos with their iPhones on Instagram these days.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I have to admit part of me was hoping they’d be resubmitted for some reason so I could see them all at work 😉
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
I hope Legend does videos for all the coins
I hope Legend, or someone, issues a sale token like the below
This was issued with the following mintages:
I could never put together a "collection" like these guys, good for them. I hope the sale is successful for all parties. The reason I say this is I think it helps the coin hobby as a whole even us little guys benefit in some ways. Good luck!
.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
Light years out of my league, but fun to follow.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Hi Bruce. I would love to be able to see these coins in person, but I will not be able to make the trip. At some point, can you open the registry sets? Second best would to be able to see them there. Great success in the sale. These ultra rarities don’t appear that often.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
The 1796 dollar in the set, is perhaps my personal favorite coin of all time. It was in an ngc holder when I first saw it and my jaw dropped. 100% all there and spectacular. I have never seen a 1796 that even comes close to this one.
Done
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/era-type-sets/18th-century-type-set-gold-1792-1799/alltimeset/185098
Awesome coins!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set