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Interesting Price Difference
Gazes
Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was looking at the inventory of Sarosota Numismatics and stumbled onto the following:
Two $20 High Relief Wire Edge St Gaudens coins. Both PCGS. The PCGS 63 was CAC and priced at $26,500. The other was graded PCGS 64---a full point higher but not CAC. It was priced at $20,500. The lower graded coin was priced a full 30% higher.
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Some people esteem the bean to an extreme.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I hear you ... but don't understand the phenomenon.
The CAC sticker does command a premium, and the lack of a sticker (same supplier, same time) indicates it may not have been worthy of a sticker - thereby downgrading it in the opinion of sellers/buyers. Of course, not seeing the coins in hand, that is just my opinion...Cheers, RickO
No brainer for me as I'd take the 64.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Totally agree. If it was a nice coin and properly graded, so would I. Definitely a no brainer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
So one coin has an insert with 64 on it, but is that grade appropriate, or is it possible that it is too high? Before CAC appeared on the scene, gradeflation had hit Saints pretty hard.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Which coin is nicer?
Latin American Collection
I think this is the correct question. It seems to me that the seller has priced the coins based on the coins rather than what is on the label
I'm starting a new company.
NBG
No Brainer Grading.
He has.
I agree. If the dealer is pricing the exact same coin with a higher grade at a lower price than the example he has in inventory a point lower, there is a reason for this.
And it is not entirely CAC
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I'd take the 64 as well. Well worth it
Seems many know what you mean.
Every coin is different and there are variety of factors that go into a grade. When doing a purchase evaluation, everyone has different things they are prioritizing that may or may not match what goes into the grade.
No brainer, I'd take the 63, based on what I find appealing in a coin.
Images below are:
I’m not surprised that the 63 is priced higher than the 64. The 63 is a terrific looking higher end 63 with a CAC sticker while the 64 looks like another run of the mill 64.
That’s true, but it might not be the main reason for the price disparity in this particular case.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It might not. No way to really know without looking at them. We don’t really know the story of the pricing. It may be a typo.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Looking at the images, which one would you choose if they were ungraded?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would pick the 63 from the images above, all else equal. The left obverse field on the 64 is distracting
Latin American Collection
63 obviously. I wonder about the time frame between the grading of these two.
The 63 looks like an older holder based solely on the gasket.
You mean the 64, I presume.
All interesting comments. Then too the pricing may have more to do with what someone had into the coin and/or if on consignment what the respective seller(s) wanted.
The 63 looks to be a better coin.
I agree. I would pick the 63.
What we don't know is if the 64 been submitted to CAC as a 63 whether it would also have garnered a bean and now be priced equally.
If I were looking at them as raw coins, I would take the 63. But again that’s just from photos.
IMHO from the pictures the 63 is leaps and bounds better than the 64! Distracting marks on the 64 which the 63 doesn't have and a weak reverse rim at the top on the 64 the 63 doesn't have. Begs the question why hasn't the 63 send in for an upgrade? The 64 looks like a 62 to me!
Somebody will buy the 64 as a "bargain" (got.it cheaper than a 63!) And then when they try to sell will realize it wasnt such a bargain
Just because the 63 looks great next to a (possibly overgraded) 64 doesn't mean it's necessarily worthy of an upgrade.
The 63 looks like the better coin, but I'd still pick the 64 at the lower price.
Why?
Because alot of collectors still want the higher graded coin without regard as to how the coin looks.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The 63 looks better but I don't know how a judgement can be made based on pictures that have different lighting. At least I cannot. Maybe it is my lack of experience.
Let me just say I do not like the 63 $6,000.00. more than the 64. At the same price I would probably choose the 63 but would need to see both coins in hand.
Do you like the 64 $6,000 less than the 63?
In hand I very well might. From the photos I like the 63 better. I just can't say it is worth $6,000 more than the 64. 6 grand is not chump change to me. Which is why I do not own a high relief. I do love the design just a bit out of my price range.
Interesting discussion. If this were a GTG thread I would have said 63 on the "64" and 65 on the "63". The lighting differences do not help with reading the coins but I think the 63 has a better strike.
My questions is why is the 63 graded 63. I am not a gold collector but I see few marks to justify a 63. But if it was a 65 CAC should have slapped some more gold on it.
Many dates/mm in gold are rare in CAC. I am not a gold person at all, so I would trust JA's opinion or DW's over mine, all day every day. If I were to put together a gold type or date set as a long term keeper set, I would likely insist on CAC. From reading the many threads on this forum and other references I believe there is a tremendous quantity of processed and doctored gold...no thank you.
It isn't so uncommon to find a nicer coin in a 63 holder than other coins that find themselves in a 64, 65, or even occasionally a 66 holder. Some are under-graded, some are over-graded, and some are just inconsistently graded. The price guides are overly rigid in my experience and they're just guides. Really nice coins sell for more than guide prices all the time and the dogs sell for way less all the time.
For example, every guide in the world shows a higher price for MS60 than AU58. Depending on the series, most of us would take a nice 58 over an average 62 day of the week.
Live and die by the guide book prices, especially in the realm of condition rarities, and you'll be getting all sorts of "deals" that really aren't.
Personally, I'd rather pay a little more for a coin that everyone thinks might be under-graded. They're so much easier to get the money back out of at sale time.
It sounds exhausting, and not particularly rewarding, to build a collection based on perceptions of what other people like.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
There's a reason PCGS only gave it a 63. I bet there are numerous hairlines that show up when the coin is rotated under a halogen light that just don't show up in a photograph. I've seen these type of coins before. They look great until you rotate them under a bright light and the hairline scratches jump out at you. I'll reserve judgement on these two coins until I can examine them in hand. Trust me when I say the grading services don't like hairline scratches.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I should have clarified my statement by saying 'for financial reasons only' I'd pick the 64.
If I was building a collection, I agree that I would probably choose the 63.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
You know what sounds exhausting as a collector? Worrying about what you'll be able to sell a coin for, before you've even bought it. But then, that's just me.
so let's look at this logically.
--- MS63/CAC. Just rationalizing what has been posted here about CAC over the years it is fair to assume that this coin is indeed an MS63, would not upgrade to MS64 but is choice for the assigned grade.
--- MS64. All we can assume about this coin is that it was graded MS64 by PCGS, once. Has it been to CAC and failed or has it not been to CAC?? We don't know either, so let's assume the worst case: that it would fail if submitted to CAC and if re-submitted to PCGS would down-grade to MS63 along with a compensation check. If submitted to CAC it is probably safe to say it would pass.
the above scenario returns us to two coins, each graded MS63/CAC and priced $6,000 apart. even if the one coin was submitted to CAC after the re-grade and failed one things is undeniable --- the added price is due to the CAC sticker.each coin as an MS63 absent a sticker, do you really think one is properly valued at $6,000 higher??
@keets , I think it might be presumptuous to assume that the 64 would certainly get a sticker as a 63.
no more presumptuous than making judgments off pictures. to that end, I will "presume" that the images make the MS63 look better than it is and that they make the MS64 look worse than it is.
And for the 8 members (so far) that agreed with this comment, at this level of high pricing for both coins, I’d think you would first want to look closer at each coin, and not just automatically go for a coin in a slab with a higher grade.
1. Do you typically buy problematic coins at what appears to be “bargain” pricing? Many comments below this quoted post seem to indicate that the coin graded 64 has “issues”.
2. The key question that should be asked in the example made by the OP is “What’s wrong with the 64 that caused it not to merit a CAC?” At this price point, there’s no reason the prior owner and dealer would not spend $15 to get a CAC if indeed it truly merited one. So why didn’t the 64 merit a CAC? Was it “low end”/C for the grade? Was it actually overgraded? Were the surfaces “messed with” in a manner that is acceptable to PCGS but not JA at CAC? These are the true questions to be asked.
I fully agree with @CoinJunkie . Most Saints at the 63 level DON’T merit a CAC. To cement this point, PCGS and NGC have graded a total of 1,764 of these as either MS63 or 63+. Not surprisingly, only 108 of those merit a CAC!!! That’s only about 6%, hence the higher price for that real nice, special MS63 that merited a CAC!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Other factors which could affect the asking prices are the dealer’s cost in the two coins (assuming he’s owns both of them outright) as well as what he thinks of them.
Just for fun, let’s try this without considering the opinions of CAC or PCGS...based solely upon the pictures, what would you grade and what value would you assign to each coin?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Where did I presume that (definitive) judgments can be made off pictures? I was merely pointing out the possibility that your thesis contained a logical fallacy.
The 63 looks nicer to me. The obverse of the 64 is very poor for a 63 let alone a 64, If I saw the 64 raw I would grade it 61-62. But I am basing this on pics of a series I know nothing about.
I wouldnt touch a NGC coin without a sticker. Been there done that and could write a book. I used to believe in buy the coin not the holder. I used to pay up for coins in a NGC holder. Then I tried to sell some of them. Major haircut. NGC coins without a sticker? It’s like having cooties. I have exactly one NGC medal. I keep that medal in quarantine and away from my other coins. That’s the market like it or not. So that Saint pricing makes perfect sense. I may not buy that 63 but for sure I wouldn’t even consider that 64.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......