Barry Bonds interview
doubledragon
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I was reading online this morning about an interview Barry Bonds had with Andrew Baggarly of "The Athletic", and Barry Bonds has said MLB has given him a death sentence. "A death sentence, that's what they've given me" Bonds told Baggarly. The MLB Hall of Fame has shut him out every year he has been on the ballot, and he's fed up with it. In the interview he says, "My heart, it's broken, really broken". He also goes on to say, "If they don't want me, just say you don't want me and be done with it". He will have two more tries at the Hall of Fame, and in his last attempt he got 60.7%, so we'll see what happens next time around.
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It's pretty obvious that some of the writers are still not wanting him in because of steroids. A clean player with his stats would have been in the first year, unanimously.
bonds was a great, great player. greatest of his generation. I have done a personal 180 on this topic. It is a travesty he is not in the hall.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I don’t think he will get in because of the HR record. I am thinking the writers are not liking his steroid fueled HR records
I would love to read the article, but its hidden behind a paywall.
Unfortunately, the writers are playing the role of activist judges with the "steroid" players. Bonds is without a doubt the greatest offensive player anyone alive has ever seen. I suppose there could be someone out there who saw Ruth, but it can be debated that Bonds was better than Ruth. certainly better than trout, pujols or any other modern day player.
as far as Cheating and PED, we have absolutely no Idea who was and was not on PED. many hall of fame players cheated without using PED.
I think Bonds was on such an otherworldly level of greatness and his attitude was so unsavory that many writers just cant handle it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'm not sure if he will get in or not. His votes have went up, but he'll still have to get over that last hump. I think some of the writers are seeing his records as being tainted.
I agree mostly with everything you said. You could maybe quibble with the first part of that statement about greatest offensive player. I would at least entertain arguments for a bit more recent players like Aaron, Mays, and Williams that someone on the forum could have seen play, but nobody that has played since the retirement of Aaron is close to Bonds.
the only one of the three that are in the same arena as bonds that you mentioned is Williams. the top three offensive players of all time would be Ruth, Bonds and williams. Not necesarrily in that order. Probably should be
1. Ruth
2. Bonds
3. williams
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree with you, personally, I'm just saying I would at least listen on the other guys. I could see where someone would or could hold a different opinion. I still wouldn't put the other guys ahead of Bonds. For sure Bonds and Ruth 1 and 2, in some order.
I would have to agree, the steroids are tainting his records or else he would have been in on the first ballot with the numbers he put up. Some of the writers just can't get past the steroids being behind the records. There's simply no other reason for the writers to continue to keep him out.
If everything had happened the same way, same allegations, but he just hit less HRs, he might be in. Is that what you are saying? It makes sense.
Please, this is just an insane comment.
Look at his numbers for the first 10 years of his career. He would have been a HOFer without the steroids, but not in the same league as Ruth or Williams.
He made his decision, and made HUGE money. I don't feel sorry for him.
Oh come on. Bonds stats might get him in the top 20 if they were honest stats and not juiced up stats. He is a bum and should never get in.
You left out Mantle and Mays and AAron and a bunch more on your list! Bond's stats are more than tainted! None of Bonds should count at all!!!!
Guys, other than the few guys who admitted or tested positive, you have NO idea who was or was not cheating. All we can go by is the statistical record we are left with. did ripken, griffey, jeter or gwynn cheat? How about ortiz, Randy johnson, Ivan Rodriguez, bagwell or piazza? What about ryan, Rickey henderson, Puckett or biggio?
The point is, you don't know. Neither do I or anyone else. The ped era, is an era like every other: dead ball, live ball, second dead ball etc.
Does intent matter? Sheffield said he didn't know the cream and clear were steroids.
There has been cheating in every era. Ruth cheated, so did aaron, mays, perry, ford, drysdale, rose and a host of others. If their cheating less had than ped? Why?
Do you have a formula to adjust for the ped era? If so, how do you adjust and why? Do you pick and choose who you adjust for?
See, there are just too many variables. You have to go by the stats to have any chance at player comparison.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The cheaters are known. Lot's of those on your list were NOT on Peds. Bonds definitely WAS and everyone knows it. He should never be in. Neither should Big Mac!
Regardless of how he got there, Bonds at his heyday was the best offensive player we've ever seen. Four straight years where he got on base more than half the time. A 1.422 OPS. Unreal.
That said, personally, I put Bonds' steroid use much earlier. I say he started before he went to San Fran. He goes from 34 to 46 homers while playing in a pitchers' park? Yeah, not fishy.
Well Barry Bonds admitted at one point to being injected by his trainer, but didn't know it was steroids. I doubt very seriously that he didn't know it was steroids. "Yes, I was injected, but I thought it was a mixture of dandelion and honeysuckle juice."😂😂
Only an idiot would believe Bonds here. It takes a long term regimen of injections along with exercise to achieve those results. A one time use of steroids would have no effect.
Unreal is a good word for it.
You could be right. I went through his numbers a while back, focusing on HR per AB and he had two significant increases in that area.
How exactly do you know who cheated and who didnt?
did Nolan Ryan cheat? How about ripken? Griffey? Henderson? Piazza? Bagwell? Frank thomas?
If you know all the answers, you should be able to give us all a straight yes or no, right. Then he able to site your sources.
Or.... Are you going with your gut? Going with the rumors? By looks? Statistical record? If so, that doesn't fly. It is biased and based on hersay.
If you want some fishy stats, look at Ruth in 1920-21. He out homered TEAMS. No One ever had seen anything like it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think Bonds will eventually get in whether on his last ballot or through the veterans committee.
I wouldn’t have a problem with his absence, though. I agree that it’s not easy to tell who was not on steroids but I think it was easy to figure out who was. Barry Bonds was on steroids and it could not have been more obvious. Guess what? One of the best things about a proper regimen of chemicals? You stay on the field and your body doesn’t break down at an age where it normally would. I mean, 268 of his home runs came past an age (35) where most if not all guys are well into their decline.
In fact, I’d like to know how many guys in the history of the game had, by far, their BEST STATISTICAL SEASON over the age of 35. I bet that is a short list; possibly even one player long.
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Exactly what I’m saying
This thread will become a battleground
Probably right, Paul.
But Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa, Rodriguez, Ortiz, Ramirez, Sheffield, Giambi and any other heavy hitters I missed all have clouds of suspicion surrounding them because of change in body type, career trajectory and/or unnatural late career resurgence and length. I watched them cheat, said so at the time, and then most of the skeletons came out in one way or another.
I’m fine with any/all being left out.
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I said before that I loved Clemens on the Sox. And even after he left, I followed his career. I respected his obvious extreme work ethic, old school intensity, and what seemed like a lot of respect for the history of baseball. This has nothing to do with Bonds or even Clemens and the HOF.....
If your heart were really broken, you blob of pond scum and jackal excrement, then you'd be dead, and the world could begin the healing process of forgetting you ever existed. Oh, and I forgot: we don't want you.
I think this is the FIRST thing that we TOTALLY agree on! And I loved they way you worded it. My thoughts EXACTLY!!
Ok so we are wishing Bonds was dead? Both of you guys and anyone who agreed with you are completely out of line, we are talking about a Baseball Player who cheated with steroids like probably 90% of his brethren ( possibly including your heroes ) did and he is all that bad? You put him on that level? Really? LOL ok
By the way, for people who still play sports, imagine if you could take 30 years of experience and put it in a 22 year old body.
Most athletes will tell you their body started to break down as their knowledge levels peaked - that’s the cruel irony of sports for most athletes.
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There are others in the Hall that used peds, so he needs to be in. The greatest hitter the World has ever seen.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Jeff Bagwell admitted to using androstenedione, and he's in the Hall of Fame. I do seem to recall Jose Canseco saying that he personally injected pudge Rodriguez while they were teammates in Texas, and they let pudge in. It would seem that the writers are all over the place on this issue. Come on writers, make up your minds!!
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Remember Ivan Rodriguez answer to the "did you use PED" question?
all he could come up with is "God only knows"
He is a hall of famer. why not Bonds?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Unrelated to the topic but I’m going to say that this is going to steadily change, looking at Tom Brady and other players in their 40’s it’s going to be the norm to see players stay at a pretty high level after the age of 35 and in some cases after 40 without PEDS. Training, nutrition ect.. keeps getting better and better and barring injuries we will see players stick around much longer than in years past.
I mean, even as quoted above> @craig44 said:
I think part of this issue which shouldn’t be overlooked is the fact that Barry Bonds was an arrogant jerk for his entire career to the very same people who would one day have a vote in his election. Now, he’s claiming no one likes him. He’s right; no one does except his fans. He is not a beloved figure. I would say he’s a heel in the tradition of Mr. Perfect Curt Henning from the old WWF - he’s obviously very talented but he’s smug and he cheats and then tells you how great he is on top of it.
As for steroids, let’s call it 75% of guys we’re juicing. We all know 74.5% aren’t Hall worthy anyway so they don’t matter in this discussion. The fact that the pitchers threw harder probably does (if my understanding of how hard a ball thrown is hit and how it relates to distance is sound) but let’s leave that out. I followed it closely and the evidence was damning; I think it is very easy to determine he was on steroids - knowingly. He then proceeded to throw it in everyone’s face and never came clean. Most guys who gave up denial were forgiven pretty quickly. To the best of my knowledge, there was no mea culpa for Bonds. He’s still maintaining he was clean the whole time.
Again, I think he’ll get in so this is all moot but waiting 9-10 years would be great and veterans committee even better. Making him wait - even forever - is fine by me.
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You guys REALLY need to educate yourselves on steroids. Now THAT would be a miracle!
Androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth. It was legal when Bagwell admitted to taking it, (andro was available over the counter and was banned a couple of years after steroids) it probably didn't help him anyway since it doesn't promote muscle growth. I don't know how this makes him a cheater.
I am not sure if Bagwell was listed in the original Mitchell report. He did get very big. Career arc looks more normal, even though he had some big years.
I seriously doubt that 75% of the players were on a regimen of injecting anabolic steroids like Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, A-Rod and Bonds (among others) were. Most people aren't going to use a needle to inject themselves and also educate themselves in how to do it to get the results that the above mentioned guys got. Most ballplayers wouldn't know how to get them either.
I would guess that 10-20% of players injected steroids, similar to people who used recreational drugs. Lots of people smoked pot, or even snorted coke, not a lot of people shot up heroin. The 2003 survey test was taken by 1,198 players, with 104 testing positive for performance-enhancing drugs. About 9%.
75% of the players may have been cheating, one way or another, but if your attempt doesn't do you any good, it doesn't change the numbers.
If anyone here bothered to read Canseco's book, they would have a better understanding of how a lot of it went down. I don't believe him 100%, but it is the only time any player has really gone into detail about their, and others, steroid use.
I am a little surprised that Ivan Rodriguez got in. It appears that there was no evidence of him using, other than Canseco's claims. His career arc looks fairly normal, although he was unusually good from 1999-2001, but those would have been his prime years. Even if you believe Canseco, it wouldn't be fair to keep him out because of one accusation imo.
P.S. I do not wish death to Bonds, I just don't think he belongs in the HOF. I also agree with 1951WheatiesPremium that Barry was a very much an arrogant jerk and some of the voters are looking for any reason to vote against him.
Overall the entire situation is a mess. Too bad MLB did little or nothing to stop it for a long time.
Let's try very hard not to make it so. Healthy debate is a possibility.
Sorry Paul I strongly disagree with the 75%!
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
No need to be sorry Jon, that’s just my opinion I don’t expect everyone to agree or disagree with me either way.
My high school was located out in BFE flyover country and the football team was full of slow, pudgy, dimwitted, no talent, country cowpokes that had no reason to take steroids other than to bump their bench press up another hundred pounds and maybe impress the girls. I mean, none of them were going to be playing football past high school, yet a large percentage of them were on anabolic steroids. This was the mid to late 80s. I always chuckle when people talk about steroids as if it was something new and mysterious in the 90s and no one playing professionally would have been using because they were always the same size. Please. You can be sure that any high school or college athlete with even an iota of talent at least had access and knew someone with knowledge that would have hooked them up. Whether they used or not, at any point, how would Joe Schmo or John Q. Public ever know.
you are correct, PED use has been going on long before the late 90's. Look at the 1970's Pittsburgh Steelers.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Josh and James Brolin starred in a made for TV movie about a high school/college athlete that also served as a PSA about the dangers of anabolic steroids. This was 1989. I remember my classmates laughing with incredulity that Josh Brolin's character died of a heart attack, like "yeah, that's not believable". They were using and didn't give a goddamn what theywere doing to themselves down the road.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
Correct. I meant that above the players who have tested positive and the ones who admitted use, we have absolutely no idea who did or didnt use. I could have been more clear. but in reality, the admitted users and those caught are a very small percentage of those who have played MLB in the last 25 years.
beyond that, like I said before, you are damning players based on heresay, rumor, looks, statistical record and personal bias.
did Bonds use? probably. DId he knowingly use, I have no idea and neither does anyone else. is he a despicable person, sure seems to be, but that is not grounds to throw his career away.
now, if you are going to open up the can of worms about statistical evidence, it could get a bit uncomfortable.
we would have to ask ourselves how players such as Aaron, ryan, Henderson, Gwynn, Randy Johnson, and others were able to have such successful late careers. it sure doesnt seem like a natural career progression...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
do you mean the Aaron who admitted to PED use?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No I mean Hank Aaron!
I don't know, wikipedia seems to think that androstenedione is an anabolic steroid.
Yup, Hank Aaron. Admitted PED user.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
the federal government would disagree that Andro is not an anabolic steroid. as would the NCAA.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No I mean Hank Aaron!> @craig44 said:
That's BS and you know it!!