@doubledragon said:
Jeff Bagwell admitted to using androstenedione, and he's in the Hall of Fame. I do seem to recall Jose Canseco saying that he personally injected pudge Rodriguez while they were teammates in Texas, and they let pudge in. It would seem that the writers are all over the place on this issue. Come on writers, make up your minds!!
You guys REALLY need to educate yourselves on steroids. Now THAT would be a miracle!
Androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth. It was legal when Bagwell admitted to taking it, (andro was available over the counter and was banned a couple of years after steroids) it probably didn't help him anyway since it doesn't promote muscle growth. I don't know how this makes him a cheater.
I am not sure if Bagwell was listed in the original Mitchell report. He did get very big. Career arc looks more normal, even though he had some big years.
I seriously doubt that 75% of the players were on a regimen of injecting anabolic steroids like Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, A-Rod and Bonds (among others) were. Most people aren't going to use a needle to inject themselves and also educate themselves in how to do it to get the results that the above mentioned guys got. Most ballplayers wouldn't know how to get them either.
I would guess that 10-20% of players injected steroids, similar to people who used recreational drugs. Lots of people smoked pot, or even snorted coke, not a lot of people shot up heroin. The 2003 survey test was taken by 1,198 players, with 104 testing positive for performance-enhancing drugs. About 9%.
75% of the players may have been cheating, one way or another, but if your attempt doesn't do you any good, it doesn't change the numbers.
If anyone here bothered to read Canseco's book, they would have a better understanding of how a lot of it went down. I don't believe him 100%, but it is the only time any player has really gone into detail about their, and others, steroid use.
I am a little surprised that Ivan Rodriguez got in. It appears that there was no evidence of him using, other than Canseco's claims. His career arc looks fairly normal, although he was unusually good from 1999-2001, but those would have been his prime years. Even if you believe Canseco, it wouldn't be fair to keep him out because of one accusation imo.
P.S. I do not wish death to Bonds, I just don't think he belongs in the HOF. I also agree with 1951WheatiesPremium that Barry was a very much an arrogant jerk and some of the voters are looking for any reason to vote against him.
Overall the entire situation is a mess. Too bad MLB did little or nothing to stop it for a long time.
the federal government would disagree that Andro is not an anabolic steroid. as would the NCAA.
Use as a supplement
Androstenedione was manufactured as a dietary supplement, often called andro or andros for short. Sports Illustrated credits Patrick Arnold with introducing androstenedione to the North American market. Androstenedione was legal and able to be purchased over the counter, and, as a consequence, it was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record-breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire.
Barry R. McCaffrey, in his capacity as director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, determined that androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
do you mean the Aaron who admitted to PED use?
No I mean Hank Aaron!
Yup, Hank Aaron. Admitted PED user.
Let's hear where you came up with that.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
do you mean the Aaron who admitted to PED use?
No I mean Hank Aaron!
Yup, Hank Aaron. Admited PED user.
That's BS and you know it!!
No sir. Hank Aaron admitted to using Amphetamines to enhance focus and concentration. He admitted it.
beyond that, like I said before, you are damning players based on heresay, rumor, looks, statistical record and personal bias.
I am NOT doing this. I don't see too many intelligent posts here that do. Maybe some smarta$$ remarks, but no real damning players on those points alone.
now, if you are going to open up the can of worms about statistical evidence, it could get a bit uncomfortable.
we would have to ask ourselves how players such as Aaron, ryan, Henderson, Gwynn, Randy Johnson, and others were able to have such successful late careers. it sure doesnt seem like a natural career progression...
Have you actually looked at Bonds' numbers, or any of the other guys you mentioned?
It SEEMS to me there's a big difference than continuing to play at a high level, like Aaron and Henderson than a guy like Bonds who has three different levels in his career that get astronomically better (2001-04) at or near the end of it.
Gwynn could have used, I don't know, Puckett might have, I saw a picture of him and his arms were HUGE! Since there is nothing else to go on, I wouldn't focus on them, but they might have used. Gwynn had a pretty big "uptic" in his hitting 1994-98, Pucket got big, but his numbers, were pretty consistent OPS+ was around 130 almost every year and he retired fairly early, but who knows?
I am not looking at only one thing here. The guys I am "calling out" didn't just get big. When 3 guys smash the single season HR record and every one of them is built like a bodybuilder and they all fail a drug test or admit to using, I think that's good enough.
Statistical evidence along with failing a test or admitting use does show how much these drugs can help you.
And PLEASE lets not bring "greenies" into the argument. We are talking about something that gives you a big advantage; Anabolic Steroids". Amphetamines can hurt your performance as much as help.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
do you mean the Aaron who admitted to PED use?
No I mean Hank Aaron!
Yup, Hank Aaron. Admited PED user.
That's BS and you know it!!
No sir. Hank Aaron admitted to using Amphetamines to enhance focus and concentration. He admitted it.
Like comparing an ant to an elephant, but yes, it's cheating IF he said it.
Can you provide a link to the story?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
This is an interesting take on the home run record from another forum and poster:
Record is 714* cause Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines
Record is 696* cause Babe Ruth played in a segregated league.
Record is 660* cause Alex Rodriguez admitted to steroid use.
Record is 656* cause Willie Mays has connections to amphetamines
Should I keep going? Or can we just acknowledge that Bonds hit the ball over the fence the most times ever?
I love this take because excuses can be made for many players as to why their records are not legitimate.
for better or worse, it is irrefutable that Bonds hit more home runs than anyone else. I am sorry if you dislike him, or it hurts your feelings, it is just the facts.
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
do you mean the Aaron who admitted to PED use?
No I mean Hank Aaron!
Yup, Hank Aaron. Admited PED user.
That's BS and you know it!!
No sir. Hank Aaron admitted to using Amphetamines to enhance focus and concentration. He admitted it.
Like comparing an ant to an elephant, but yes, it's cheating IF he said it.
Can you provide a link to the story?
First, what are amphetamines?
Also known as “greenies (Emen, 2007),” they were the first performance enhancing drug floating around baseball clubhouses. MLB Commissioner Bud Selig says that they have been around in baseball for "seven or eight decades (Emen, 2007).”
Former baseball player Jim Bouton (Appendix A)
detailed the usage of greenies for a multitude of causes or symptoms. Whether it be a hangover from a night of partying, general fatigue or a player in need of a boost of home run swatting energy-- greenies were the friends of ballplayers everywhere (Emen, 2007).
“In 1964, aided by uppers, (Bouton) led the American League in starts (Chafets, 2009, pg. 178).” Bouton recalls in his book, Ball Four, that once, a player “received a supply of five hundred amphetamine pills (Chafets, 2009, pg. 178).” He admitted that “just about the whole Baltimore (Orioles) team takes them. Most of the (Detroit) Tigers. Most of the guys on (his team) (Chafets, 2009, pg. 178),” too.
Amphetamines (like steroids) were illegal without prescription in American society but were just a part of the baseball culture. Best I can tell, amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs that, many people feel, sharpen focus and increase energy levels and help an athlete overcome exhaustion (Posnanski, 2010).
The great Willie Mays admitted,
I would go to the doctor and would say to the doctor, ‘Hey, I need something to keep me going. Could you give me some sort of vitamin?’ I don’t know what they put in there, and I never asked a question about anything (Posnanski, 2010).
Just about every player used amphetamines. “Pete Rose did. Hank Aaron admitted trying it (Posnanski, 2010).”
While amphetamines were not banned from baseball until 1971 (Chafets, 2009, pg. 178), former Royals outfielder Brian McRae (Appendix A) recalled how amphetamines have become a part of the clubhouse scene. “There were always two pots of coffee brewing in the clubhouse -- one conventional and the other laced with stimulants (Crasnick, 2006).”
As for the repercussions, “Under baseball's amphetamines policy… players are not publicly identified for a first positive test. A second positive test for amphetamines results in a 25-game suspension ("Report: Bonds," 2007).”
Before amphetamines there was Dexamyl, “an upper that came into commercial use in the mid-1930's and was given to American troops during World War II to increase stamina and enhance battlefield performance (Chafets, 2009, pg. 178).”
I have never understood why many people are so outraged about baseball players’ steroid use and so unperturbed by amphetamine use. I guess it makes some sense on a gut level — injecting yourself with steroids seems so much more villainous than popping a couple of greenies to get a boost (Posnanski, 2010).
Aaron admitted to amphetamine use in his autobiography
"Let’s face it, baseball has been dirty for several decades. If this is a shock to you then you need to turn off ESPN and do some research. And since you’re here I’ll lead you in the right direction…..Amphetamines (AKA Greenies). Beginning in the 60s and lasting all the way up to their 2005 ban, illegal amphetamines were the most widely abused drug in baseball. Pete Rose and Hank Aaron are two of the biggest names that have confessed to amphetamine use. In addition, Willie Mays and Willie Stargell have been linked to both the use and selling of those illegal little green pills. The use of amphetamines were so rampant during the 70s that it is said that there were 2 coffee pots in team clubhouses. But one of them wasn’t your standard decaf. One of the two pots was not laced with amphetamines. Plus, teams were lacing everything with them. So even if a player from the 70s says he didn’t take them then there is still a very good chance that he took them without even knowing about it.
If this is news to you then you are probably now saying, “So what? Speed is nothing compared to steroids.” I’m not going to debate which substance is the greater performance enhancer because I do believe steroids enhance performance more than amphetamines. However it’s interesting to note that home run totals dropped more after the amphetamine ban than they did when steroid testing began. It’s also interesting to note that Hank Aaron claimed to have only used them once while slumping in 1968. After 1968 he had an immediate resurgence at the plate. Was he taking amphetamines on a regular basis after 1968? Most likely he was. Would any of us believe Roger Clemens if he said he only took steroids once? Hell no we wouldn’t! The point I’m getting too is it impossible to speculate on how much a substance enhanced a player. It is quite possible that without the aid of speed Hammering Hank never would have became the All-Time Home Run Leader. But there is no way to prove that one way or another. It’s just speculation. we can speculate as much as we want but we’ll never know how good a player would have been without the aid of an illegal substance."
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
@perkdog said:
Nobody knows for sure how many players are guilty of PEDS. My best guess is 75% of players. The way I see it is Bonds was on an even playing field with 75% of his peers
I agree. none of us have any idea who was or was not using. It is intellectually dishonest to pick and choose clean and dirty players based on looks, statistical records, personal bias and rumors.
all we have is the statistical record. everything else is bias and conjecture.
Actually we do. We have the Mitchell report, failed drug tests and some players admitting to using.
Canseco's book was originally scoffed at, but several players he accused of using ended up failing tests or admitting use. So like him or hate him, he has some credibility.
As far as Bonds' case is concerned, he has an unbelievable career arc and did admit that he used steroids even though he claims he didn't know it at the time. He also became gigantic, as did McGwire and Sosa. A-Rod has also been pretty much proven too.
There's PLENTY of proof.
Totally agree! There is a way to keep most of the cheaters out if enough effort was taken. And if some are in the Hall that are know users......take them out!
No way Bonds should ever be in and his records should be taken away. Aaron is still the HR leader in my book!!
do you mean the Aaron who admitted to PED use?
No I mean Hank Aaron!
Yup, Hank Aaron. Admited PED user.
That's BS and you know it!!
No sir. Hank Aaron admitted to using Amphetamines to enhance focus and concentration. He admitted it.
Like comparing an ant to an elephant, but yes, it's cheating IF he said it.
Can you provide a link to the story?
I would imagine most great players have cheated throughout some point during their careers. I dont think we should romanticise guys like Williams, Mays, Aaron, Stargell, etc. to the point we cannot see clearly. Sure, most likely Bonds did cheat. we know Mac, Arod, Giambi and others cheated because they admitted it. but, we also know that great players of the past also were users. you can debate the effectiveness of all this cheating, but the fact remains, they cheated.
@doubledragon said:
Jeff Bagwell admitted to using androstenedione, and he's in the Hall of Fame. I do seem to recall Jose Canseco saying that he personally injected pudge Rodriguez while they were teammates in Texas, and they let pudge in. It would seem that the writers are all over the place on this issue. Come on writers, make up your minds!!
You guys REALLY need to educate yourselves on steroids. Now THAT would be a miracle!
Androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth. It was legal when Bagwell admitted to taking it, (andro was available over the counter and was banned a couple of years after steroids) it probably didn't help him anyway since it doesn't promote muscle growth. I don't know how this makes him a cheater.
I am not sure if Bagwell was listed in the original Mitchell report. He did get very big. Career arc looks more normal, even though he had some big years.
I seriously doubt that 75% of the players were on a regimen of injecting anabolic steroids like Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, A-Rod and Bonds (among others) were. Most people aren't going to use a needle to inject themselves and also educate themselves in how to do it to get the results that the above mentioned guys got. Most ballplayers wouldn't know how to get them either.
I would guess that 10-20% of players injected steroids, similar to people who used recreational drugs. Lots of people smoked pot, or even snorted coke, not a lot of people shot up heroin. The 2003 survey test was taken by 1,198 players, with 104 testing positive for performance-enhancing drugs. About 9%.
75% of the players may have been cheating, one way or another, but if your attempt doesn't do you any good, it doesn't change the numbers.
If anyone here bothered to read Canseco's book, they would have a better understanding of how a lot of it went down. I don't believe him 100%, but it is the only time any player has really gone into detail about their, and others, steroid use.
I am a little surprised that Ivan Rodriguez got in. It appears that there was no evidence of him using, other than Canseco's claims. His career arc looks fairly normal, although he was unusually good from 1999-2001, but those would have been his prime years. Even if you believe Canseco, it wouldn't be fair to keep him out because of one accusation imo.
P.S. I do not wish death to Bonds, I just don't think he belongs in the HOF. I also agree with 1951WheatiesPremium that Barry was a very much an arrogant jerk and some of the voters are looking for any reason to vote against him.
Overall the entire situation is a mess. Too bad MLB did little or nothing to stop it for a long time.
the federal government would disagree that Andro is not an anabolic steroid. as would the NCAA.
Use as a supplement
Androstenedione was manufactured as a dietary supplement, often called andro or andros for short. Sports Illustrated credits Patrick Arnold with introducing androstenedione to the North American market. Androstenedione was legal and able to be purchased over the counter, and, as a consequence, it was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record-breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire.
Barry R. McCaffrey, in his capacity as director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, determined that androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth.
It says on RxList.com that in January 2005 legislation went into effect in the United States called the anabolic steroid control act of 2004. This reclassifies androstendione from a dietary supplement to a anabolic steroid, which is a schedule III controlled substance. It is banned by the NCAA.
@doubledragon said:
Jeff Bagwell admitted to using androstenedione, and he's in the Hall of Fame. I do seem to recall Jose Canseco saying that he personally injected pudge Rodriguez while they were teammates in Texas, and they let pudge in. It would seem that the writers are all over the place on this issue. Come on writers, make up your minds!!
You guys REALLY need to educate yourselves on steroids. Now THAT would be a miracle!
Androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth. It was legal when Bagwell admitted to taking it, (andro was available over the counter and was banned a couple of years after steroids) it probably didn't help him anyway since it doesn't promote muscle growth. I don't know how this makes him a cheater.
I am not sure if Bagwell was listed in the original Mitchell report. He did get very big. Career arc looks more normal, even though he had some big years.
I seriously doubt that 75% of the players were on a regimen of injecting anabolic steroids like Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, A-Rod and Bonds (among others) were. Most people aren't going to use a needle to inject themselves and also educate themselves in how to do it to get the results that the above mentioned guys got. Most ballplayers wouldn't know how to get them either.
I would guess that 10-20% of players injected steroids, similar to people who used recreational drugs. Lots of people smoked pot, or even snorted coke, not a lot of people shot up heroin. The 2003 survey test was taken by 1,198 players, with 104 testing positive for performance-enhancing drugs. About 9%.
75% of the players may have been cheating, one way or another, but if your attempt doesn't do you any good, it doesn't change the numbers.
If anyone here bothered to read Canseco's book, they would have a better understanding of how a lot of it went down. I don't believe him 100%, but it is the only time any player has really gone into detail about their, and others, steroid use.
I am a little surprised that Ivan Rodriguez got in. It appears that there was no evidence of him using, other than Canseco's claims. His career arc looks fairly normal, although he was unusually good from 1999-2001, but those would have been his prime years. Even if you believe Canseco, it wouldn't be fair to keep him out because of one accusation imo.
P.S. I do not wish death to Bonds, I just don't think he belongs in the HOF. I also agree with 1951WheatiesPremium that Barry was a very much an arrogant jerk and some of the voters are looking for any reason to vote against him.
Overall the entire situation is a mess. Too bad MLB did little or nothing to stop it for a long time.
the federal government would disagree that Andro is not an anabolic steroid. as would the NCAA.
Use as a supplement
Androstenedione was manufactured as a dietary supplement, often called andro or andros for short. Sports Illustrated credits Patrick Arnold with introducing androstenedione to the North American market. Androstenedione was legal and able to be purchased over the counter, and, as a consequence, it was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record-breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire.
Barry R. McCaffrey, in his capacity as director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, determined that androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth.
It says on RxList.com that in January 2005 legislation went into effect in the United States called the anabolic steroid control act of 2004. This reclassifies androstendione from a dietary supplement to a anabolic steroid, which is a schedule III controlled substance. It is banned by the NCAA.
If in 1989, steroids were such a known problem amongst high school athletes that they made a TV movie addressing it, and the steroids were readily available in the 80s in my small town high school in the middle of nowhere for lower income, non-athletic hayseeds, then I have no doubt that they were also readily available for the top athletes at Moeller, Kalamazoo Central, Christopher Columbus, The Bolles, Lower Merion, St Vincent-St. Mary, and every other high school.
Certainly steroids were available at college, too, in the 80s, with The Boz & Tony Mandarich admitting it, and then you'd hear mythical stories of how Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson never lifted weights. I mean I want to believe that's true, that they were naturally built that way. You can hope and you can wish, but you will never know for certain who used and didn't use.
Chris Davis at one time had a therapeutic use exemption for the stimulant adderall. Chris Davis once was a feared slugger, hitting 50+ homeruns. Baseball rescinded Chris Davis's exemption for adderall. Chris Davis is no longer a very good baseball player.
It's not just steroids, folks, that tilt the field. Do you currently know which players have therapeutic use exemptions, what the drugs are, and the medical reasons behind them (legitimate or fabricated), and what effect they have on the player's performance?
@JoeBanzai said:
I am a little surprised that Ivan Rodriguez got in. It appears that there was no evidence of him using, other than Canseco's claims. His career arc looks fairly normal, although he was unusually good from 1999-2001, but those would have been his prime years. Even if you believe Canseco, it wouldn't be fair to keep him out because of one accusation imo.
With Pudge, he very obviously deflated as they started testing for roids. He had to be at least 30 lbs smaller with Detroit than Texas.
@countdouglas said:
If in 1989, steroids were such a known problem amongst high school athletes that they made a TV movie addressing it, and the steroids were readily available in the 80s in my small town high school in the middle of nowhere for lower income, non-athletic hayseeds, then I have no doubt that they were also readily available for the top athletes at Moeller, Kalamazoo Central, Christopher Columbus, The Bolles, Lower Merion, St Vincent-St. Mary, and every other high school.
Certainly steroids were available at college, too, in the 80s, with The Boz & Tony Mandarich admitting it, and then you'd hear mythical stories of how Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson never lifted weights. I mean I want to believe that's true, that they were naturally built that way. You can hope and you can wish, but you will never know for certain who used and didn't use.
Chris Davis at one time had a therapeutic use exemption for the stimulant adderall. Chris Davis once was a feared slugger, hitting 50+ homeruns. Baseball rescinded Chris Davis's exemption for adderall. Chris Davis is no longer a very good baseball player.
It's not just steroids, folks, that tilt the field. Do you currently know which players have therapeutic use exemptions, what the drugs are, and the medical reasons behind them (legitimate or fabricated), and what effect they have on the player's performance?
The pearl clutching gets to be a little much.
What's your point! So anybody can get them anywhere...…..does that make it OK. And does that mean everybody takes/took them...….I think not.
Desmond: [interviewing a waitress who is drinking coffee and smoking] D'you ever take steroids, Irene?
Irene at Hap's: No, I do not. I never took steroids or any other PEDs. I don't take PEDs.
Stanley: Nicotine's a PED. Caffeine's a PED. Greenie's are PEDs.
@doubledragon said:
Jeff Bagwell admitted to using androstenedione, and he's in the Hall of Fame. I do seem to recall Jose Canseco saying that he personally injected pudge Rodriguez while they were teammates in Texas, and they let pudge in. It would seem that the writers are all over the place on this issue. Come on writers, make up your minds!!
You guys REALLY need to educate yourselves on steroids. Now THAT would be a miracle!
Androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth. It was legal when Bagwell admitted to taking it, (andro was available over the counter and was banned a couple of years after steroids) it probably didn't help him anyway since it doesn't promote muscle growth. I don't know how this makes him a cheater.
I am not sure if Bagwell was listed in the original Mitchell report. He did get very big. Career arc looks more normal, even though he had some big years.
I seriously doubt that 75% of the players were on a regimen of injecting anabolic steroids like Canseco, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, A-Rod and Bonds (among others) were. Most people aren't going to use a needle to inject themselves and also educate themselves in how to do it to get the results that the above mentioned guys got. Most ballplayers wouldn't know how to get them either.
I would guess that 10-20% of players injected steroids, similar to people who used recreational drugs. Lots of people smoked pot, or even snorted coke, not a lot of people shot up heroin. The 2003 survey test was taken by 1,198 players, with 104 testing positive for performance-enhancing drugs. About 9%.
75% of the players may have been cheating, one way or another, but if your attempt doesn't do you any good, it doesn't change the numbers.
If anyone here bothered to read Canseco's book, they would have a better understanding of how a lot of it went down. I don't believe him 100%, but it is the only time any player has really gone into detail about their, and others, steroid use.
I am a little surprised that Ivan Rodriguez got in. It appears that there was no evidence of him using, other than Canseco's claims. His career arc looks fairly normal, although he was unusually good from 1999-2001, but those would have been his prime years. Even if you believe Canseco, it wouldn't be fair to keep him out because of one accusation imo.
P.S. I do not wish death to Bonds, I just don't think he belongs in the HOF. I also agree with 1951WheatiesPremium that Barry was a very much an arrogant jerk and some of the voters are looking for any reason to vote against him.
Overall the entire situation is a mess. Too bad MLB did little or nothing to stop it for a long time.
the federal government would disagree that Andro is not an anabolic steroid. as would the NCAA.
Use as a supplement
Androstenedione was manufactured as a dietary supplement, often called andro or andros for short. Sports Illustrated credits Patrick Arnold with introducing androstenedione to the North American market. Androstenedione was legal and able to be purchased over the counter, and, as a consequence, it was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record-breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire.
Barry R. McCaffrey, in his capacity as director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, determined that androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth.
It says on RxList.com that in January 2005 legislation went into effect in the United States called the anabolic steroid control act of 2004. This reclassifies androstendione from a dietary supplement to a anabolic steroid, which is a schedule III controlled substance. It is banned by the NCAA.
this is correct.
It may be reclassified as a controlled substance, but it has not been proven to promote muscle growth.
" Androstenedione has a steroid-like structure, and some researches claim that it is a weak anabolic steroid. If androstenedione were to be classified as an anabolic steroid it would become restricted by the Anabolic Steroids Act of 1990 which states: that in order for a substance to be classified as an anabolic steroid it (1) must have a structure related to testosterone, (2) must have pharmacology related to testosterone, (3) the substance cannot be an estrogen, progestin, or corticosteroid, (4) the substance must promote muscle growth. The latter of the four requirements does not classify andro as an anabolic steroid. There is no concrete evidence that the substance does promote muscle growth. It has only been proved to raise levels of androstenedione, testosterone, and estrogens."
Andro and amphetamines didn't do much, if anything. Andro was also sold over the counter and wasn't banned until later, so it wasn't cheating if it was legal!
For that matter if Mays and/or Aaron was prescribed amphetamines by a doctor, that wasn't illegal either. In fact they weren't banned by the MLB unti 2006.
Anabolic Steriods were not prescribed to baseball players by doctors, they were an illegal way of building bulk from day one. I do believe that a player can be prescribed them to recover from injury, but must do so with MLB approval.
_None of the "old timers" grew an extra head like Bonds. _
The body builds up a resistance and finally a near immunity to amphetamines, so they might help if used occasionally, but they aren't actually a performance enhancer. In the book "Ball Four" author and former MLB player Jim Bouton says if you took too much you could overestimate ("get gay" in his words) your ability and actually have a worse performance.
Guys that are able to put on 20-30 (or more) pounds of solid muscle (while at the same time reaping the benefits of quicker recovery times) are going to have their performance enhanced every single time they step to the plate or take the mound. They will hit every pitch harder and farther and throw every pitch faster.
Some new studies have also suggested that anabolic steroids can improve hand-eye coordination and actually make a average player better and a good player great. For a great player (like Bonds/ARod) it made them superman. McGwire and Sosa went from good players with power to league leaders. Yes, I know Mac had a great rookie year. He didn't do much after that until he blew himself up.
It's obvious to me that the results from anabolic steroids are gigantic and the results from "greenies" are minimal if at all.
The old timers some of us "worship" were not in fact cheating.
Bonds and the rest were.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
I am a little surprised that Ivan Rodriguez got in. It appears that there was no evidence of him using, other than Canseco's claims. His career arc looks fairly normal, although he was unusually good from 1999-2001, but those would have been his prime years. Even if you believe Canseco, it wouldn't be fair to keep him out because of one accusation imo.
With Pudge, he very obviously deflated as they started testing for roids. He had to be at least 30 lbs smaller with Detroit than Texas.
I thought he got smaller very quickly. He got away with it if he juiced.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I’m not saying Hank Aaron was juicing, I have no idea whether he was or not. However, something recently has been brought to my attention that sheds a whole new light on steroid use in baseball and it amazes me that more people don’t know about it.
It’s simply called the “May 3rd, 2005” article. Read it HERE.
If you don’t want to read it, let me give you the gory details.
The article appeared in the San Francisco Chronicle and then was picked up by USA Today in 2005 where former MLB pitcher Tom House is quoted extensively about his use of steroids back in the 1960s and 1970s. House, probably best known for catching Hank Aaron’s 715th record breaking home run ball in 1974 as it flew into the bullpen, admits steroids were big in baseball even 40 to 50 years ago.
After his playing days, House went on to be a pitching coach for the Texas Rangers and also co-founded the National Pitching Association near San Diego. Currently House is trying to spread the word as to how bad steroids use truly is and he’s also has worked with several NFL quarterbacks, including Tim Tebow, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Alex Smith, Carson Palmer and Matt Cassell, on their throwing technique.
Now that his bio is out of the way, here are the quotes…
-“I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn’t give to horses. That was the ’60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There’s a lot more research and understanding.”
-“We didn’t get beat, we got out-milligrammed, and when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them.”
-“I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn’t go faster than 82 miles per hour, I was a failed experiment.”
-“I’d like to say we were smart, but we didn’t know what was going on. We were at the tail end of a generation that wasn’t afraid to ingest anything. As research showed up, guys stopped.”
-House also estimated that six or seven players on each team were at least experimenting with steroids. House said players talked often about losing to opponents using more effective drugs.
This seems like huge news, but nobody seems to know about it. If what House is saying is true then steroid use has been going on forever and players currently in the Hall of Fame might have used as well. I have always believed if a player has Hall of Fame worthy numbers then let them in and now after reading the above article, how could you disagree with me?
I know what you are thinking. A follow-up interview was never done and this article essentially vanished once it was written; so how could the accusations be true — Right?
But why would House lie?
Maybe baseball shut him up. I don’t know the answers. But what I do know is that it’s now even harder to pretend that steroids were just a “this era” problem.
This leads us to Hank Aaron…
Everybody always says Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens played their best baseball towards the end of their careers and that must be proof they were cheating. Well, the same can be said for Hammerin’ Hank. Aaron’s HR percentage started to increase the older he got. Home run percentage is defined as being the number of home runs per 100 at bats and Aaron saw his highest percentage at age 39 where he hit 40 home runs in 1973. In fact Aaron led the National League in home run percentage in three consecutive years late in his career at ages 37, 38 and 39.
Read the exact break down HERE.
Again, if you don’t want to read it, all you really need to know is that Aaron was not the only player on the Braves in ’73 that saw crazy home run percentages. Former Tiger Darrell Evans and Davey Johnson did as well only to see those numbers return to normal the following year, a year after a Congressional Committee issued its final report stating that anabolic steroids were rampant in baseball. Johnson later went on to manage the 1996 Orioles, a team that set, at the time the record for long balls in a season. That year Brady Anderson hit 50 homers, a campaign for the centerfielder that was viewed as very suspicious.
So how is Aaron any different from Bonds?
Does this prove anything? Maybe not, but how is it any different than this era? It’s not!
House claims his teammates were juicing and Aaron and others just happened to experience the best production of their career during that time. Seems way too suspicious to ignore.
Aaron since has gone on record saying he wants past steroid users exposed and banned from the Hall of Fame.
So who do you believe?
I know this is old news and you might be wondering why I decided to write this blog. Well, it’s new to me, so I figured it might be to you as well.
People are so adamant about calling Clemens, Bonds and others cheaters; well, maybe after reading this blog those same people will realize that the cheating began way before Sosa and Big Mac in 1998
Do you believe Aaron juiced? Do you believe House is lying? Do you believe players of the past never used performance enhancing drugs?
Seems like the answers are obvious to me! So stop blaming just this era of baseball. Like I said, if you have the numbers, you should be in the Hall. It’s that simple.
No matter what, the one constant in baseball has been players looking for that added edge. So tell me, am I wrong
It's hard to fathom that in 2020 there are still people out there who deny MLB steroids use. It's almost like they are trying desperately to protect the image of the game they had in their childhood. MLB is about as corrupt as it gets. Whether it is steroids, juiced balls, fixed games, electronic buzzers, illegal video games, etc....MLB has a lengthy proven track record of corruption.
I think this might be the first post I’ve seen where someone posted that they believe Griffey cheated. I’ve always thought he did but the masses refuse to entertain that thought since he is a hero to so many of them
I think this might be the first post I’ve seen where someone posted that they believe Griffey cheated. I’ve always thought he did but the masses refuse to entertain that thought since he is a hero to so many of them
It has been brought up once or twice.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@countdouglas said:
If in 1989, steroids were such a known problem amongst high school athletes that they made a TV movie addressing it, and the steroids were readily available in the 80s in my small town high school in the middle of nowhere for lower income, non-athletic hayseeds, then I have no doubt that they were also readily available for the top athletes at Moeller, Kalamazoo Central, Christopher Columbus, The Bolles, Lower Merion, St Vincent-St. Mary, and every other high school.
Certainly steroids were available at college, too, in the 80s, with The Boz & Tony Mandarich admitting it, and then you'd hear mythical stories of how Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson never lifted weights. I mean I want to believe that's true, that they were naturally built that way. You can hope and you can wish, but you will never know for certain who used and didn't use.
Chris Davis at one time had a therapeutic use exemption for the stimulant adderall. Chris Davis once was a feared slugger, hitting 50+ homeruns. Baseball rescinded Chris Davis's exemption for adderall. Chris Davis is no longer a very good baseball player.
It's not just steroids, folks, that tilt the field. Do you currently know which players have therapeutic use exemptions, what the drugs are, and the medical reasons behind them (legitimate or fabricated), and what effect they have on the player's performance?
I think this might be the first post I’ve seen where someone posted that they believe Griffey cheated. I’ve always thought he did but the masses refuse to entertain that thought since he is a hero to so many of them
@countdouglas said:
If in 1989, steroids were such a known problem amongst high school athletes that they made a TV movie addressing it, and the steroids were readily available in the 80s in my small town high school in the middle of nowhere for lower income, non-athletic hayseeds, then I have no doubt that they were also readily available for the top athletes at Moeller, Kalamazoo Central, Christopher Columbus, The Bolles, Lower Merion, St Vincent-St. Mary, and every other high school.
Certainly steroids were available at college, too, in the 80s, with The Boz & Tony Mandarich admitting it, and then you'd hear mythical stories of how Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson never lifted weights. I mean I want to believe that's true, that they were naturally built that way. You can hope and you can wish, but you will never know for certain who used and didn't use.
Chris Davis at one time had a therapeutic use exemption for the stimulant adderall. Chris Davis once was a feared slugger, hitting 50+ homeruns. Baseball rescinded Chris Davis's exemption for adderall. Chris Davis is no longer a very good baseball player.
It's not just steroids, folks, that tilt the field. Do you currently know which players have therapeutic use exemptions, what the drugs are, and the medical reasons behind them (legitimate or fabricated), and what effect they have on the player's performance?
The pearl clutching gets to be a little much.
What's your point! So anybody can get them anywhere...…..does that make it OK. And does that mean everybody takes/took them...….I think not.
the point is that PED use is widespread throughout decades, at least back to the 60's and likely earlier. also that Adderall/amphetamines are significantly more effective than many people understand or will admit to and that many fans have put certain players on a pedestal of righteousness that would cause too much cognitive dissonance if that player is accused of PED use.
In regards to Hank Aaron's HR per AB, it did go up while he was in his late 30's but his OPS/OPS+ numbers didn't go up as much, as his number of doubles dropped as did his number of games played.
He changed his hitting approach when he realized he had a shot at Ruth's record and sacrificed doubles for home runs.
Hank may have had his best year in 1971, but it wasn't much better than 1959,1962 or 1969.
NOTHING in comparison to Bonds' numbers. Bonds was astronomically better in every batting area from 2001-04 than at any time in his career. Look at his OPS numbers, a HUGE jump, he averaged .229 higher OPS than in his best season 1993.
In regards to the House interview, they may have been experimenting with PEDS, but he certainly didn't get much better, except for injury recovery time.
It would be nice to know what exactly he was taking, and if he was taking orally or injecting, it's pretty obvious they didn't have the knowledge that came along later when Canseco showed them how to make it work.
Even if they were injecting, without a weightlifting program to go along with taking the PEDs, you aren't going to get results. Maybe that's why they/he quit doing them.
Hopefully someone will go on the record about what was going on in the late 1960's in a clear meaningful way.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
my fav player was Vlad Guerrero. i'd be stupefied if he went his entire career without taking something. when he hit the bigs with Montreal back in '96, he weighed 160 pounds. when he called it quits with the Orioles in 2011, he was tipping the scales at 235. almost a 50% jump in lbs over the course of his playing career. there's lifting weights, and then there's.........
of course the overwhelming majority of these guys cheated. i'd be willing to bet that even players with a semblance of a conscience ultimately gave in when they realized that they had to do it just to keep pace........or simply keep their jobs. lots and lots of incentive to swallow your dignity in one gulp.
Bonds was arguably the greatest hitter of his generation, yet the guy couldn't resist. so if he couldn't, who could? naiveté is a dangerous thing....
@craig44 said:
"It's obvious to me that the results from anabolic steroids are gigantic and the results from "greenies" are minimal if at all.
The old timers some of us "worship" were not in fact cheating."
see Davis, Chris for the effectiveness of Adderrol.
and yes, if the old timers you worship were using amphetamines, the were cheating.
No they weren't. I'm confused, can't you read? It was legal for an athlete to use amphetamines as in the case of Mays who had them prescribed by a Doctor.
In fact they were not banned by MLB until 2006 and were even supplied by the training staff, with some clubhouses having two pots of coffee, one spiked with "uppers" and the other regular Joe.
_Amphetamines were not banned until 2006......HELLO!!!!!!
_
Amphetamines are "restorative" drugs. They merely allow an individual to overcome the effects of fatigue. Such drugs are taken with the intent of restoring an athlete's skills—not to enhance his or her skills.
Chris Davis' example is certainly interesting, but has no merit when discussing players before 2006 and is not in fact what the players were taking back then. So, NO Adderall does not equal Dexedrine, just like Androstenodine does not equal Deca-Durabolin, or Winstrol.
Your opinions are not backed up by facts.> @doubledragon said:
The MLB players have probably been taking drugs since the beginning. The MLB is one big crackhouse.
No one is arguing this. Amphetamines were legal until 2006, so it wasn't cheating.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
"It's obvious to me that the results from anabolic steroids are gigantic and the results from "greenies" are minimal if at all.
The old timers some of us "worship" were not in fact cheating."
see Davis, Chris for the effectiveness of Adderrol.
and yes, if the old timers you worship were using amphetamines, the were cheating.
No they weren't. I'm confused, can't you read? It was legal for an athlete to use amphetamines as in the case of Mays who had them prescribed by a Doctor.
In fact they were not banned by MLB until 2006 and were even supplied by the training staff, with some clubhouses having two pots of coffee, one spiked with "uppers" and the other regular Joe.
_Amphetamines were not banned until 2006......HELLO!!!!!!
_
Amphetamines are "restorative" drugs. They merely allow an individual to overcome the effects of fatigue. Such drugs are taken with the intent of restoring an athlete's skills—not to enhance his or her skills.
Chris Davis' example is certainly interesting, but has no merit when discussing players before 2006 and is not in fact what the players were taking back then. So, NO Adderall does not equal Dexedrine, just like Androstenodine does not equal Deca-Durabolin, or Winstrol.
Your opinions are not backed up by facts.> @doubledragon said:
The MLB players have probably been taking drugs since the beginning. The MLB is one big crackhouse.
No one is arguing this. Amphetamines were legal until 2006, so it wasn't cheating.
so were players who used steroids pre 1990 free to do so in your book?
and how exactly do you know? can you site sources?
How do I know? Common sense.
Nolan Ryan worked with Tom House and pitched until he was 173.
Ripken went from 14 homers in 161 games in 1998 to 18 in 86 games with a .340 average in 1999. At 38 years old.
Griffey? Sure, he was the ONE slugger in baseball in the late 90s not using 'roids. Sure thing. Also, he had the constant muscle pulls associated with roids.
Henderson? Jose Canseco says he did it. And look where he played.
Piazza? Widely reported to have backne symptomatic of steroid use.
Bagwell? Yep, he gained 50+ lbs of muscle naturally.
Frank Thomas? Just naturally suspicious of him because of his numbers and when he played. BUT...he was such a gigantic man to begin with that he could have produced his numbers clean. So...don't know.
and how exactly do you know? can you site sources?
How do I know? Common sense.
Nolan Ryan worked with Tom House and pitched until he was 173.
Ripken went from 14 homers in 161 games in 1998 to 18 in 86 games with a .340 average in 1999. At 38 years old.
Griffey? Sure, he was the ONE slugger in baseball in the late 90s not using 'roids. Sure thing. Also, he had the constant muscle pulls associated with roids.
Henderson? Jose Canseco says he did it. And look where he played.
Piazza? Widely reported to have backne symptomatic of steroid use.
Bagwell? Yep, he gained 50+ lbs of muscle naturally.
Frank Thomas? Just naturally suspicious of him because of his numbers and when he played. BUT...he was such a gigantic man to begin with that he could have produced his numbers clean. So...don't know.
and this would be why we can only go with the statistical record when comparing players. your observations seem astute, but unless we have a failed test or an admission, we do not have proof. we have conjecture. think of all the lesser players who were users that effected the stats of other players.
we cannot cherry pick those who we think used, or are pretty sure used or even are just positive that they used without hard evidence. unless we have the proof of a failed test or an admission, I really dont see how it is intellectually honest to discount the merits of 90's players because of rumor, inuendo and conjecture.
@JoeBanzai said:
In regards to Hank Aaron's HR per AB, it did go up while he was in his late 30's ...
I'll interpret "late 30's" to mean ages 36-39, or the 1970-1973 seasons. In those seasons, Aaron hit 159 HR - 97 at home, 62 on the road. In Aaron's best 4-year stretch as a player, 1959-1962, ages 25-28, in Milwaukee, he hit 158 HR - 80 at home, 78 on the road. His HR hitting in neutral parks decreased 20%, which is hardly unusual. His HR hitting at home, in the Launching Pad, increased by 20% at the same time, masking the fact that his skills were declining.
Aaron's "improvement" as a HR hitter late in his career is entirely a park illusion.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Bonds was such a horses a$$ to everyone including fans, teammates, coaches and the media that he really left the game with many wishing him ill will....... had he an ounce of contriteness or sincere remorse I think he would get in...... but he probably had the worst aura of most players in the game on the field that I ever saw..... Albert Belle maybe had him beat....but not by much.
@craig44 said:
"It's obvious to me that the results from anabolic steroids are gigantic and the results from "greenies" are minimal if at all.
The old timers some of us "worship" were not in fact cheating."
see Davis, Chris for the effectiveness of Adderrol.
and yes, if the old timers you worship were using amphetamines, the were cheating.
No they weren't. I'm confused, can't you read? It was legal for an athlete to use amphetamines as in the case of Mays who had them prescribed by a Doctor.
In fact they were not banned by MLB until 2006 and were even supplied by the training staff, with some clubhouses having two pots of coffee, one spiked with "uppers" and the other regular Joe.
_Amphetamines were not banned until 2006......HELLO!!!!!!
_
Amphetamines are "restorative" drugs. They merely allow an individual to overcome the effects of fatigue. Such drugs are taken with the intent of restoring an athlete's skills—not to enhance his or her skills.
Chris Davis' example is certainly interesting, but has no merit when discussing players before 2006 and is not in fact what the players were taking back then. So, NO Adderall does not equal Dexedrine, just like Androstenodine does not equal Deca-Durabolin, or Winstrol.
Your opinions are not backed up by facts.> @doubledragon said:
The MLB players have probably been taking drugs since the beginning. The MLB is one big crackhouse.
No one is arguing this. Amphetamines were legal until 2006, so it wasn't cheating.
so were players who used steroids pre 1990 free to do so in your book?
Until someone comes out with a more detailed report, it's hard to make a judgement. The House interview doesn't get specific, "taking things they wouldn't give to a horse" tells me nothing.
They were breaking the law, by using PEDs. But not baseball rules.
I read extensively on steroids and it became prevalent in the NFL in the late 1960's. Baseball didn't get into lifting weights for a while after that.
I don't see much, if any, unusual looking players or statistics, so I don't think they were getting much for results.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
and how exactly do you know? can you site sources?
How do I know? Common sense.
Nolan Ryan worked with Tom House and pitched until he was 173.
Ripken went from 14 homers in 161 games in 1998 to 18 in 86 games with a .340 average in 1999. At 38 years old.
Griffey? Sure, he was the ONE slugger in baseball in the late 90s not using 'roids. Sure thing. Also, he had the constant muscle pulls associated with roids.
Henderson? Jose Canseco says he did it. And look where he played.
Piazza? Widely reported to have backne symptomatic of steroid use.
Bagwell? Yep, he gained 50+ lbs of muscle naturally.
Frank Thomas? Just naturally suspicious of him because of his numbers and when he played. BUT...he was such a gigantic man to begin with that he could have produced his numbers clean. So...don't know.
and this would be why we can only go with the statistical record when comparing players. your observations seem astute, but unless we have a failed test or an admission, we do not have proof. we have conjecture. think of all the lesser players who were users that effected the stats of other players.
we cannot cherry pick those who we think used, or are pretty sure used or even are just positive that they used without hard evidence. unless we have the proof of a failed test or an admission, I really dont see how it is intellectually honest to discount the merits of 90's players because of rumor, inuendo and conjecture.
And this is why I can't condemn the "old timers" as well. There's even less evidence. Nobody got gigantic and nobody did anything like Bonds and the rest statistically.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@countdouglas said:
If in 1989, steroids were such a known problem amongst high school athletes that they made a TV movie addressing it, and the steroids were readily available in the 80s in my small town high school in the middle of nowhere for lower income, non-athletic hayseeds, then I have no doubt that they were also readily available for the top athletes at Moeller, Kalamazoo Central, Christopher Columbus, The Bolles, Lower Merion, St Vincent-St. Mary, and every other high school.
Certainly steroids were available at college, too, in the 80s, with The Boz & Tony Mandarich admitting it, and then you'd hear mythical stories of how Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson never lifted weights. I mean I want to believe that's true, that they were naturally built that way. You can hope and you can wish, but you will never know for certain who used and didn't use.
Chris Davis at one time had a therapeutic use exemption for the stimulant adderall. Chris Davis once was a feared slugger, hitting 50+ homeruns. Baseball rescinded Chris Davis's exemption for adderall. Chris Davis is no longer a very good baseball player.
It's not just steroids, folks, that tilt the field. Do you currently know which players have therapeutic use exemptions, what the drugs are, and the medical reasons behind them (legitimate or fabricated), and what effect they have on the player's performance?
The pearl clutching gets to be a little much.
What's your point! So anybody can get them anywhere...…..does that make it OK. And does that mean everybody takes/took them...….I think not.
Nice to revisit this thread. The point was, there seems to be this take that professional baseball players, likely the top athlete in their high school and college and every single minor league team they played on on their journey to the majors were ignorant rubes that had never heard of steroids, had no idea or means to get them, no clue on how to use them, and no inkling that they would help their performance. We're supposed to believe that it wasn't until 1998 that the light bulb went on, and they all looked around, and said to themselves, "I need to look into this a little more, these steroid thing-a-ma-jiggies that I've only heard whispers about."
My point was, high school students in the 80s, the top athletes at a little podunk school in the middle of nowhere, with no prospects of moving on to the next level, even as a walk on, let alone getting a scholarship or carving out a professional career, could easily get steroids, knew how to use them, and did. And it was a well enough known problem in high schools that they made this movie. And we had a history teacher who was observant, and worried, and cared enough about the students in his class, that he taped the movie and blocked out class time to show it to us and discuss.
History class. Not health class, not P.E.
To think that professional ballplayers, college ballplayers, and high school ballplayers in the 80s, with the talent already in place and the motivation to get better, couldn't or wouldn't be able to get access to steroids, and produce results, is just naive.
Everyone says, "Not Griffey!"
But you don't know.
"Not Jeter!"
But you don't know.
They were once high school students, too, with no inkling that they would ever turn into JUNIOR and THE CAPTAIN. Just high school students with talent, hanging out with their teammates and buddies, and somebody, somewhere in their circle had access to steroids, and you can hope and pray all you want that they didn't use steroids at any point in their athletic career to get where they did.
@countdouglas - The real point is that we know the ones that were dirty by either their admission or the ones going from normal to Incredible Hulk (Bonds). The ones we know about should NEVER be allowed in the HOF!
@countdouglas said:
If in 1989, steroids were such a known problem amongst high school athletes that they made a TV movie addressing it, and the steroids were readily available in the 80s in my small town high school in the middle of nowhere for lower income, non-athletic hayseeds, then I have no doubt that they were also readily available for the top athletes at Moeller, Kalamazoo Central, Christopher Columbus, The Bolles, Lower Merion, St Vincent-St. Mary, and every other high school.
Certainly steroids were available at college, too, in the 80s, with The Boz & Tony Mandarich admitting it, and then you'd hear mythical stories of how Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson never lifted weights. I mean I want to believe that's true, that they were naturally built that way. You can hope and you can wish, but you will never know for certain who used and didn't use.
Chris Davis at one time had a therapeutic use exemption for the stimulant adderall. Chris Davis once was a feared slugger, hitting 50+ homeruns. Baseball rescinded Chris Davis's exemption for adderall. Chris Davis is no longer a very good baseball player.
It's not just steroids, folks, that tilt the field. Do you currently know which players have therapeutic use exemptions, what the drugs are, and the medical reasons behind them (legitimate or fabricated), and what effect they have on the player's performance?
The pearl clutching gets to be a little much.
What's your point! So anybody can get them anywhere...…..does that make it OK. And does that mean everybody takes/took them...….I think not.
Nice to revisit this thread. The point was, there seems to be this take that professional baseball players, likely the top athlete in their high school and college and every single minor league team they played on on their journey to the majors were ignorant rubes that had never heard of steroids, had no idea or means to get them, no clue on how to use them, and no inkling that they would help their performance. We're supposed to believe that it wasn't until 1998 that the light bulb went on, and they all looked around, and said to themselves, "I need to look into this a little more, these steroid thing-a-ma-jiggies that I've only heard whispers about."
My point was, high school students in the 80s, the top athletes at a little podunk school in the middle of nowhere, with no prospects of moving on to the next level, even as a walk on, let alone getting a scholarship or carving out a professional career, could easily get steroids, knew how to use them, and did. And it was a well enough known problem in high schools that they made this movie. And we had a history teacher who was observant, and worried, and cared enough about the students in his class, that he taped the movie and blocked out class time to show it to us and discuss.
History class. Not health class, not P.E.
To think that professional ballplayers, college ballplayers, and high school ballplayers in the 80s, with the talent already in place and the motivation to get better, couldn't or wouldn't be able to get access to steroids, and produce results, is just naive.
Everyone says, "Not Griffey!"
But you don't know.
"Not Jeter!"
But you don't know.
They were once high school students, too, with no inkling that they would ever turn into JUNIOR and THE CAPTAIN. Just high school students with talent, hanging out with their teammates and buddies, and somebody, somewhere in their circle had access to steroids, and you can hope and pray all you want that they didn't use steroids at any point in their athletic career to get where they did.
But you just don't know.
That's the point.
Some crimes, we catch the guy standing over the register, the safe or the body, sure, and some we have to kind of piece together a story based on evidence. We can’t be 100% certain, in the latter, that every person convicted of a crime is guilty.
Should we just stop prosecuting crime?
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Comments
Use as a supplement
Androstenedione was manufactured as a dietary supplement, often called andro or andros for short. Sports Illustrated credits Patrick Arnold with introducing androstenedione to the North American market. Androstenedione was legal and able to be purchased over the counter, and, as a consequence, it was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record-breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire.
Barry R. McCaffrey, in his capacity as director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, determined that androstenedione could not be classified as an anabolic steroid because there is no proof that it promotes muscle growth.
Let's hear where you came up with that.
No sir. Hank Aaron admitted to using Amphetamines to enhance focus and concentration. He admitted it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I am NOT doing this. I don't see too many intelligent posts here that do. Maybe some smarta$$ remarks, but no real damning players on those points alone.
Have you actually looked at Bonds' numbers, or any of the other guys you mentioned?
It SEEMS to me there's a big difference than continuing to play at a high level, like Aaron and Henderson than a guy like Bonds who has three different levels in his career that get astronomically better (2001-04) at or near the end of it.
Gwynn could have used, I don't know, Puckett might have, I saw a picture of him and his arms were HUGE! Since there is nothing else to go on, I wouldn't focus on them, but they might have used. Gwynn had a pretty big "uptic" in his hitting 1994-98, Pucket got big, but his numbers, were pretty consistent OPS+ was around 130 almost every year and he retired fairly early, but who knows?
I am not looking at only one thing here. The guys I am "calling out" didn't just get big. When 3 guys smash the single season HR record and every one of them is built like a bodybuilder and they all fail a drug test or admit to using, I think that's good enough.
Statistical evidence along with failing a test or admitting use does show how much these drugs can help you.
And PLEASE lets not bring "greenies" into the argument. We are talking about something that gives you a big advantage; Anabolic Steroids". Amphetamines can hurt your performance as much as help.
Like comparing an ant to an elephant, but yes, it's cheating IF he said it.
Can you provide a link to the story?
This is an interesting take on the home run record from another forum and poster:
Record is 714* cause Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines
Record is 696* cause Babe Ruth played in a segregated league.
Record is 660* cause Alex Rodriguez admitted to steroid use.
Record is 656* cause Willie Mays has connections to amphetamines
Should I keep going? Or can we just acknowledge that Bonds hit the ball over the fence the most times ever?
I love this take because excuses can be made for many players as to why their records are not legitimate.
for better or worse, it is irrefutable that Bonds hit more home runs than anyone else. I am sorry if you dislike him, or it hurts your feelings, it is just the facts.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
First, what are amphetamines?
detailed the usage of greenies for a multitude of causes or symptoms. Whether it be a hangover from a night of partying, general fatigue or a player in need of a boost of home run swatting energy-- greenies were the friends of ballplayers everywhere (Emen, 2007).
Amphetamines (like steroids) were illegal without prescription in American society but were just a part of the baseball culture. Best I can tell, amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs that, many people feel, sharpen focus and increase energy levels and help an athlete overcome exhaustion (Posnanski, 2010).
I would go to the doctor and would say to the doctor, ‘Hey, I need something to keep me going. Could you give me some sort of vitamin?’ I don’t know what they put in there, and I never asked a question about anything (Posnanski, 2010).
Just about every player used amphetamines. “Pete Rose did. Hank Aaron admitted trying it (Posnanski, 2010).”
While amphetamines were not banned from baseball until 1971 (Chafets, 2009, pg. 178), former Royals outfielder Brian McRae (Appendix A) recalled how amphetamines have become a part of the clubhouse scene. “There were always two pots of coffee brewing in the clubhouse -- one conventional and the other laced with stimulants (Crasnick, 2006).” As for the repercussions, “Under baseball's amphetamines policy… players are not publicly identified for a first positive test. A second positive test for amphetamines results in a 25-game suspension ("Report: Bonds," 2007).” Before amphetamines there was Dexamyl, “an upper that came into commercial use in the mid-1930's and was given to American troops during World War II to increase stamina and enhance battlefield performance (Chafets, 2009, pg. 178).”I have never understood why many people are so outraged about baseball players’ steroid use and so unperturbed by amphetamine use. I guess it makes some sense on a gut level — injecting yourself with steroids seems so much more villainous than popping a couple of greenies to get a boost (Posnanski, 2010).
Aaron admitted to amphetamine use in his autobiography
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
an interesting take on amphetamine use.
"Let’s face it, baseball has been dirty for several decades. If this is a shock to you then you need to turn off ESPN and do some research. And since you’re here I’ll lead you in the right direction…..Amphetamines (AKA Greenies). Beginning in the 60s and lasting all the way up to their 2005 ban, illegal amphetamines were the most widely abused drug in baseball. Pete Rose and Hank Aaron are two of the biggest names that have confessed to amphetamine use. In addition, Willie Mays and Willie Stargell have been linked to both the use and selling of those illegal little green pills. The use of amphetamines were so rampant during the 70s that it is said that there were 2 coffee pots in team clubhouses. But one of them wasn’t your standard decaf. One of the two pots was not laced with amphetamines. Plus, teams were lacing everything with them. So even if a player from the 70s says he didn’t take them then there is still a very good chance that he took them without even knowing about it.
If this is news to you then you are probably now saying, “So what? Speed is nothing compared to steroids.” I’m not going to debate which substance is the greater performance enhancer because I do believe steroids enhance performance more than amphetamines. However it’s interesting to note that home run totals dropped more after the amphetamine ban than they did when steroid testing began. It’s also interesting to note that Hank Aaron claimed to have only used them once while slumping in 1968. After 1968 he had an immediate resurgence at the plate. Was he taking amphetamines on a regular basis after 1968? Most likely he was. Would any of us believe Roger Clemens if he said he only took steroids once? Hell no we wouldn’t! The point I’m getting too is it impossible to speculate on how much a substance enhanced a player. It is quite possible that without the aid of speed Hammering Hank never would have became the All-Time Home Run Leader. But there is no way to prove that one way or another. It’s just speculation. we can speculate as much as we want but we’ll never know how good a player would have been without the aid of an illegal substance."
(Ye Olde sports pub, J Daniels, 2010)
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
My preferred PED every morning is a couple cups of coffee. Are all my records tainted?
I would imagine most great players have cheated throughout some point during their careers. I dont think we should romanticise guys like Williams, Mays, Aaron, Stargell, etc. to the point we cannot see clearly. Sure, most likely Bonds did cheat. we know Mac, Arod, Giambi and others cheated because they admitted it. but, we also know that great players of the past also were users. you can debate the effectiveness of all this cheating, but the fact remains, they cheated.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It says on RxList.com that in January 2005 legislation went into effect in the United States called the anabolic steroid control act of 2004. This reclassifies androstendione from a dietary supplement to a anabolic steroid, which is a schedule III controlled substance. It is banned by the NCAA.
this is correct.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If in 1989, steroids were such a known problem amongst high school athletes that they made a TV movie addressing it, and the steroids were readily available in the 80s in my small town high school in the middle of nowhere for lower income, non-athletic hayseeds, then I have no doubt that they were also readily available for the top athletes at Moeller, Kalamazoo Central, Christopher Columbus, The Bolles, Lower Merion, St Vincent-St. Mary, and every other high school.
Certainly steroids were available at college, too, in the 80s, with The Boz & Tony Mandarich admitting it, and then you'd hear mythical stories of how Herschel Walker and Bo Jackson never lifted weights. I mean I want to believe that's true, that they were naturally built that way. You can hope and you can wish, but you will never know for certain who used and didn't use.
Chris Davis at one time had a therapeutic use exemption for the stimulant adderall. Chris Davis once was a feared slugger, hitting 50+ homeruns. Baseball rescinded Chris Davis's exemption for adderall. Chris Davis is no longer a very good baseball player.
It's not just steroids, folks, that tilt the field. Do you currently know which players have therapeutic use exemptions, what the drugs are, and the medical reasons behind them (legitimate or fabricated), and what effect they have on the player's performance?
The pearl clutching gets to be a little much.
With Pudge, he very obviously deflated as they started testing for roids. He had to be at least 30 lbs smaller with Detroit than Texas.
Ryan? Yes.
Ripken? Yes.
Griffey? Yes.
Hdnerson? Yes.
Piazza? Yes.
Bagwell? Yes.
Frank? Unsure but probably.
What's your point! So anybody can get them anywhere...…..does that make it OK. And does that mean everybody takes/took them...….I think not.
Desmond: [interviewing a waitress who is drinking coffee and smoking] D'you ever take steroids, Irene?
Irene at Hap's: No, I do not. I never took steroids or any other PEDs. I don't take PEDs.
Stanley: Nicotine's a PED. Caffeine's a PED. Greenie's are PEDs.
It may be reclassified as a controlled substance, but it has not been proven to promote muscle growth.
" Androstenedione has a steroid-like structure, and some researches claim that it is a weak anabolic steroid. If androstenedione were to be classified as an anabolic steroid it would become restricted by the Anabolic Steroids Act of 1990 which states: that in order for a substance to be classified as an anabolic steroid it (1) must have a structure related to testosterone, (2) must have pharmacology related to testosterone, (3) the substance cannot be an estrogen, progestin, or corticosteroid, (4) the substance must promote muscle growth. The latter of the four requirements does not classify andro as an anabolic steroid. There is no concrete evidence that the substance does promote muscle growth. It has only been proved to raise levels of androstenedione, testosterone, and estrogens."
Andro and amphetamines didn't do much, if anything. Andro was also sold over the counter and wasn't banned until later, so it wasn't cheating if it was legal!
For that matter if Mays and/or Aaron was prescribed amphetamines by a doctor, that wasn't illegal either. In fact they weren't banned by the MLB unti 2006.
Anabolic Steriods were not prescribed to baseball players by doctors, they were an illegal way of building bulk from day one. I do believe that a player can be prescribed them to recover from injury, but must do so with MLB approval.
_None of the "old timers" grew an extra head like Bonds. _
The body builds up a resistance and finally a near immunity to amphetamines, so they might help if used occasionally, but they aren't actually a performance enhancer. In the book "Ball Four" author and former MLB player Jim Bouton says if you took too much you could overestimate ("get gay" in his words) your ability and actually have a worse performance.
Guys that are able to put on 20-30 (or more) pounds of solid muscle (while at the same time reaping the benefits of quicker recovery times) are going to have their performance enhanced every single time they step to the plate or take the mound. They will hit every pitch harder and farther and throw every pitch faster.
Some new studies have also suggested that anabolic steroids can improve hand-eye coordination and actually make a average player better and a good player great. For a great player (like Bonds/ARod) it made them superman. McGwire and Sosa went from good players with power to league leaders. Yes, I know Mac had a great rookie year. He didn't do much after that until he blew himself up.
It's obvious to me that the results from anabolic steroids are gigantic and the results from "greenies" are minimal if at all.
The old timers some of us "worship" were not in fact cheating.
Bonds and the rest were.
I thought he got smaller very quickly. He got away with it if he juiced.
By: Jeff Riger
I’m not saying Hank Aaron was juicing, I have no idea whether he was or not. However, something recently has been brought to my attention that sheds a whole new light on steroid use in baseball and it amazes me that more people don’t know about it.
It’s simply called the “May 3rd, 2005” article. Read it HERE.
If you don’t want to read it, let me give you the gory details.
The article appeared in the San Francisco Chronicle and then was picked up by USA Today in 2005 where former MLB pitcher Tom House is quoted extensively about his use of steroids back in the 1960s and 1970s. House, probably best known for catching Hank Aaron’s 715th record breaking home run ball in 1974 as it flew into the bullpen, admits steroids were big in baseball even 40 to 50 years ago.
After his playing days, House went on to be a pitching coach for the Texas Rangers and also co-founded the National Pitching Association near San Diego. Currently House is trying to spread the word as to how bad steroids use truly is and he’s also has worked with several NFL quarterbacks, including Tim Tebow, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Alex Smith, Carson Palmer and Matt Cassell, on their throwing technique.
Now that his bio is out of the way, here are the quotes…
-“I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn’t give to horses. That was the ’60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There’s a lot more research and understanding.”
-“We didn’t get beat, we got out-milligrammed, and when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them.”
-“I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn’t go faster than 82 miles per hour, I was a failed experiment.”
-“I’d like to say we were smart, but we didn’t know what was going on. We were at the tail end of a generation that wasn’t afraid to ingest anything. As research showed up, guys stopped.”
-House also estimated that six or seven players on each team were at least experimenting with steroids. House said players talked often about losing to opponents using more effective drugs.
This seems like huge news, but nobody seems to know about it. If what House is saying is true then steroid use has been going on forever and players currently in the Hall of Fame might have used as well. I have always believed if a player has Hall of Fame worthy numbers then let them in and now after reading the above article, how could you disagree with me?
I know what you are thinking. A follow-up interview was never done and this article essentially vanished once it was written; so how could the accusations be true — Right?
But why would House lie?
Maybe baseball shut him up. I don’t know the answers. But what I do know is that it’s now even harder to pretend that steroids were just a “this era” problem.
This leads us to Hank Aaron…
Everybody always says Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens played their best baseball towards the end of their careers and that must be proof they were cheating. Well, the same can be said for Hammerin’ Hank. Aaron’s HR percentage started to increase the older he got. Home run percentage is defined as being the number of home runs per 100 at bats and Aaron saw his highest percentage at age 39 where he hit 40 home runs in 1973. In fact Aaron led the National League in home run percentage in three consecutive years late in his career at ages 37, 38 and 39.
Read the exact break down HERE.
Again, if you don’t want to read it, all you really need to know is that Aaron was not the only player on the Braves in ’73 that saw crazy home run percentages. Former Tiger Darrell Evans and Davey Johnson did as well only to see those numbers return to normal the following year, a year after a Congressional Committee issued its final report stating that anabolic steroids were rampant in baseball. Johnson later went on to manage the 1996 Orioles, a team that set, at the time the record for long balls in a season. That year Brady Anderson hit 50 homers, a campaign for the centerfielder that was viewed as very suspicious.
So how is Aaron any different from Bonds?
Does this prove anything? Maybe not, but how is it any different than this era? It’s not!
House claims his teammates were juicing and Aaron and others just happened to experience the best production of their career during that time. Seems way too suspicious to ignore.
Aaron since has gone on record saying he wants past steroid users exposed and banned from the Hall of Fame.
So who do you believe?
I know this is old news and you might be wondering why I decided to write this blog. Well, it’s new to me, so I figured it might be to you as well.
People are so adamant about calling Clemens, Bonds and others cheaters; well, maybe after reading this blog those same people will realize that the cheating began way before Sosa and Big Mac in 1998
Do you believe Aaron juiced? Do you believe House is lying? Do you believe players of the past never used performance enhancing drugs?
Seems like the answers are obvious to me! So stop blaming just this era of baseball. Like I said, if you have the numbers, you should be in the Hall. It’s that simple.
No matter what, the one constant in baseball has been players looking for that added edge. So tell me, am I wrong
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/08/29/does-this-prove-that-hank-aaron-was-juicing/
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
It's hard to fathom that in 2020 there are still people out there who deny MLB steroids use. It's almost like they are trying desperately to protect the image of the game they had in their childhood. MLB is about as corrupt as it gets. Whether it is steroids, juiced balls, fixed games, electronic buzzers, illegal video games, etc....MLB has a lengthy proven track record of corruption.
I think this might be the first post I’ve seen where someone posted that they believe Griffey cheated. I’ve always thought he did but the masses refuse to entertain that thought since he is a hero to so many of them
It has been brought up once or twice.
This post is spot on.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
and how exactly do you know? can you site sources?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Definitely not as much as it should have.
the point is that PED use is widespread throughout decades, at least back to the 60's and likely earlier. also that Adderall/amphetamines are significantly more effective than many people understand or will admit to and that many fans have put certain players on a pedestal of righteousness that would cause too much cognitive dissonance if that player is accused of PED use.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
In regards to Hank Aaron's HR per AB, it did go up while he was in his late 30's but his OPS/OPS+ numbers didn't go up as much, as his number of doubles dropped as did his number of games played.
He changed his hitting approach when he realized he had a shot at Ruth's record and sacrificed doubles for home runs.
Hank may have had his best year in 1971, but it wasn't much better than 1959,1962 or 1969.
NOTHING in comparison to Bonds' numbers. Bonds was astronomically better in every batting area from 2001-04 than at any time in his career. Look at his OPS numbers, a HUGE jump, he averaged .229 higher OPS than in his best season 1993.
In regards to the House interview, they may have been experimenting with PEDS, but he certainly didn't get much better, except for injury recovery time.
It would be nice to know what exactly he was taking, and if he was taking orally or injecting, it's pretty obvious they didn't have the knowledge that came along later when Canseco showed them how to make it work.
Even if they were injecting, without a weightlifting program to go along with taking the PEDs, you aren't going to get results. Maybe that's why they/he quit doing them.
Hopefully someone will go on the record about what was going on in the late 1960's in a clear meaningful way.
The MLB players have probably been taking drugs since the beginning. The MLB is one big crackhouse.
"It's obvious to me that the results from anabolic steroids are gigantic and the results from "greenies" are minimal if at all.
The old timers some of us "worship" were not in fact cheating."
see Davis, Chris for the effectiveness of Adderrol.
and yes, if the old timers you worship were using amphetamines, the were cheating.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
my fav player was Vlad Guerrero. i'd be stupefied if he went his entire career without taking something. when he hit the bigs with Montreal back in '96, he weighed 160 pounds. when he called it quits with the Orioles in 2011, he was tipping the scales at 235. almost a 50% jump in lbs over the course of his playing career. there's lifting weights, and then there's.........
of course the overwhelming majority of these guys cheated. i'd be willing to bet that even players with a semblance of a conscience ultimately gave in when they realized that they had to do it just to keep pace........or simply keep their jobs. lots and lots of incentive to swallow your dignity in one gulp.
Bonds was arguably the greatest hitter of his generation, yet the guy couldn't resist. so if he couldn't, who could? naiveté is a dangerous thing....
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
No they weren't. I'm confused, can't you read? It was legal for an athlete to use amphetamines as in the case of Mays who had them prescribed by a Doctor.
In fact they were not banned by MLB until 2006 and were even supplied by the training staff, with some clubhouses having two pots of coffee, one spiked with "uppers" and the other regular Joe.
_Amphetamines were not banned until 2006......HELLO!!!!!!
_
Amphetamines are "restorative" drugs. They merely allow an individual to overcome the effects of fatigue. Such drugs are taken with the intent of restoring an athlete's skills—not to enhance his or her skills.
Chris Davis' example is certainly interesting, but has no merit when discussing players before 2006 and is not in fact what the players were taking back then. So, NO Adderall does not equal Dexedrine, just like Androstenodine does not equal Deca-Durabolin, or Winstrol.
Your opinions are not backed up by facts.> @doubledragon said:
No one is arguing this. Amphetamines were legal until 2006, so it wasn't cheating.
so were players who used steroids pre 1990 free to do so in your book?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
How do I know? Common sense.
Nolan Ryan worked with Tom House and pitched until he was 173.
Ripken went from 14 homers in 161 games in 1998 to 18 in 86 games with a .340 average in 1999. At 38 years old.
Griffey? Sure, he was the ONE slugger in baseball in the late 90s not using 'roids. Sure thing. Also, he had the constant muscle pulls associated with roids.
Henderson? Jose Canseco says he did it. And look where he played.
Piazza? Widely reported to have backne symptomatic of steroid use.
Bagwell? Yep, he gained 50+ lbs of muscle naturally.
Frank Thomas? Just naturally suspicious of him because of his numbers and when he played. BUT...he was such a gigantic man to begin with that he could have produced his numbers clean. So...don't know.
Well we know Bagwell did, because he admitted to using androstenedione, which is an anabolic steroid.
and this would be why we can only go with the statistical record when comparing players. your observations seem astute, but unless we have a failed test or an admission, we do not have proof. we have conjecture. think of all the lesser players who were users that effected the stats of other players.
we cannot cherry pick those who we think used, or are pretty sure used or even are just positive that they used without hard evidence. unless we have the proof of a failed test or an admission, I really dont see how it is intellectually honest to discount the merits of 90's players because of rumor, inuendo and conjecture.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'll interpret "late 30's" to mean ages 36-39, or the 1970-1973 seasons. In those seasons, Aaron hit 159 HR - 97 at home, 62 on the road. In Aaron's best 4-year stretch as a player, 1959-1962, ages 25-28, in Milwaukee, he hit 158 HR - 80 at home, 78 on the road. His HR hitting in neutral parks decreased 20%, which is hardly unusual. His HR hitting at home, in the Launching Pad, increased by 20% at the same time, masking the fact that his skills were declining.
Aaron's "improvement" as a HR hitter late in his career is entirely a park illusion.
Bonds was such a horses a$$ to everyone including fans, teammates, coaches and the media that he really left the game with many wishing him ill will....... had he an ounce of contriteness or sincere remorse I think he would get in...... but he probably had the worst aura of most players in the game on the field that I ever saw..... Albert Belle maybe had him beat....but not by much.
Until someone comes out with a more detailed report, it's hard to make a judgement. The House interview doesn't get specific, "taking things they wouldn't give to a horse" tells me nothing.
They were breaking the law, by using PEDs. But not baseball rules.
I read extensively on steroids and it became prevalent in the NFL in the late 1960's. Baseball didn't get into lifting weights for a while after that.
I don't see much, if any, unusual looking players or statistics, so I don't think they were getting much for results.
And this is why I can't condemn the "old timers" as well. There's even less evidence. Nobody got gigantic and nobody did anything like Bonds and the rest statistically.
He'll get in when the Era's Committee votes him in
Currently seeking 1975 Hostess panels
Got one, two, more? Let me know!!
Nice to revisit this thread. The point was, there seems to be this take that professional baseball players, likely the top athlete in their high school and college and every single minor league team they played on on their journey to the majors were ignorant rubes that had never heard of steroids, had no idea or means to get them, no clue on how to use them, and no inkling that they would help their performance. We're supposed to believe that it wasn't until 1998 that the light bulb went on, and they all looked around, and said to themselves, "I need to look into this a little more, these steroid thing-a-ma-jiggies that I've only heard whispers about."
My point was, high school students in the 80s, the top athletes at a little podunk school in the middle of nowhere, with no prospects of moving on to the next level, even as a walk on, let alone getting a scholarship or carving out a professional career, could easily get steroids, knew how to use them, and did. And it was a well enough known problem in high schools that they made this movie. And we had a history teacher who was observant, and worried, and cared enough about the students in his class, that he taped the movie and blocked out class time to show it to us and discuss.
History class. Not health class, not P.E.
To think that professional ballplayers, college ballplayers, and high school ballplayers in the 80s, with the talent already in place and the motivation to get better, couldn't or wouldn't be able to get access to steroids, and produce results, is just naive.
Everyone says, "Not Griffey!"
But you don't know.
"Not Jeter!"
But you don't know.
They were once high school students, too, with no inkling that they would ever turn into JUNIOR and THE CAPTAIN. Just high school students with talent, hanging out with their teammates and buddies, and somebody, somewhere in their circle had access to steroids, and you can hope and pray all you want that they didn't use steroids at any point in their athletic career to get where they did.
But you just don't know.
That's the point.
@countdouglas - The real point is that we know the ones that were dirty by either their admission or the ones going from normal to Incredible Hulk (Bonds). The ones we know about should NEVER be allowed in the HOF!
@craig> @countdouglas said:
Some crimes, we catch the guy standing over the register, the safe or the body, sure, and some we have to kind of piece together a story based on evidence. We can’t be 100% certain, in the latter, that every person convicted of a crime is guilty.
Should we just stop prosecuting crime?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest