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If you had 200K to build a must have collection..
guinessmstr45
Posts: 9 ✭✭
..what would you buy? Years/Grades/etc. And no - I’m not sitting on a few hundred grand thinking how to invest that in coins - but in theory - a must have/best to have list as investments - would be interesting to see what you all would target if starting out w a blank slate
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I always wanted a Continental Dollar.
A collection of Proof and MS gold coins of the world with v.low mintages that sell at or near melt. The Franklin Mint struck a lot of them.
I'd do the same thing I am now, just more and better. I have no interest in building a collection that other people want.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
There is not a single coin that I would EVER EVER EVER buy as an investment.
Key dates... broadly spread across several series.
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Coins are a collectible, not an investment. I would not recommend "investing" in coins at all.
I did exactly this for nine years, as a side project. I had a lot of fun and learned some interesting things. The amount of gold per coin varied from 0.1 oz to 1.2 oz. I sold them in 2015. However, not many were produced by the Franklin Mint.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
US type set like I'm doing now, except for higher quality.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
If I had $200K to 'invest', it would not be in coins....Coin collecting is my hobby and I do not want it to become a business...Cheers, RickO
You can laugh at my suggestion that I wouldn't invest in any coins, but historically they are a horrible "investment" relative to other investment vehicles. And recently, they are worse than historically. Yes, you can point to the occasional coin that did really well. Kudos if you own that one coin. But that is anecdotal nonsense when the broader market is not in a bull market.
It is hard to create appropriate diversification in a coin portfolio, especially with only $200,000 to spend. Transaction costs are quite high relative to other investment vehicles. I can buy the entire S&P500 in an ETF for a few bucks in and a few bucks to get out. If I buy an "investment grade" coin, there is a 10 to 20% cost to buy it and a 10 to 20% cost to sell it. And no, you aren't going to be able to buy and sell it on the BST or Instagram.
Enjoy the hobby as a hobby. Use the proceeds from your real investments to fund your hobby.
So just curious---should someone never buy a coin for six figures or say any coin over $20,000? Should someone never have a collection that is worth hundreds of thousand of dollars or even over a million? Very few people have six figures to throw away (or $20,000), so I am assuming that you think only billionaires should purchase these type of coins. Who should have the honor of owning a high priced coin? And you said you should use proceeds from your "real investments to fund your hobby." Well what if you "proceeds" from your "real investments" are $50,000----according to you wouldn't it make more sense to reinvest that money and make more money rather than buying coins? Using your theory---really you would never buy an expensive coin?
As for the OP question---I would purchase PCGS CAC old gold where the census numbers on CAC are low and are unlikely to change.
Exactly what I was thinking.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
My personal opinion is 200K won't go very far.
it i had that money i would by the four coins I need to finish my set of proof 66 or better Jeffersons. Then work on my house. Then finish my 1932 to 1998 Washington AU or better set. Then upgrade some equipment around here. Then get a nice fugio. That should leave about half of it, so I would need to think about.
Maybe not a 'must have' collection, but I would be quite pleased
I would go after 67 and 68 DMPLS etc
This is without a doubt the single most correct statement ever posted!
I'd call Coin Vault.
On their toll free number.
I wouldn't hang up until I got a week in Vegas comped.
Maybe a month.
At a major coin show try finding PCGS NGC 1909-S Indian head cents in MS63/64RB. Mostly red, no spots and no discoloration.
For every MS1909-S IHC at a major show you might find 10 to 30. MS1909-S VDB 1C.
Coins are a popularity contest.
I would do massive current US Mint products flipping with 100 to 200 G's. Become a playa and shot caller.
Also buy raw coins at shows and submit, submit and submit. Sell, rinse, repeat.
Well, not really. If you buy a coin for the sole purpose of selling it for a profit someday, it’s an investment. Maybe not a smart one, but that’s a different question.
And FWIW, I do believe that there are some coins that would be a smart long term investment.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There is a great deal of truth here, yet one has to ask what the state of the hobby would be without investor dollars. Even our beloved QDB has written books that advocate investing in coins.
As jmlanzaf noted, the entry and exit costs are significant. The old adage, about buying and holding for several market cycles, doesn't reproducibly work well when all costs are factored in. Before the age of TPGs and the internet, many collectors simply did not realize that most of what they were buying was not rare. Some types of coins crashed and have yet to recover (especially commems). The amount of information today, and its accessibility, has done a lot to level the playing field between buyers and sellers--this alone makes it harder for a seller to make money.
Most of the investor money in numismatics seems to rely on upgrades and cowbells, all of which look to me like some kind of arbitrage game. If you have to rely on gradeflation to bail you out of your investment, then it was a foolish investment. A number of dealers, over the years, have quietly told me that most of their customers will end up losing money, mostly because they don't really understand what they are buying.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I would go after buyers when the next silver eagle or similar rampage happens.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
If you ever doubt this, look at the 1848 quarter eagles. Survival numbers and values.
How about blowing the whole thing on the nicest chain cent you can buy for $200k.
A lovely proper 1796 half dollar in xf/au.
Well of course most collectors end up losing money. Just take a big step back and look at the big picture. The pool of coins we collect (excluding moderns) is reasonably fixed. With the exception of private sales, each time they trade hands someone is taking a cut. It's either a dealer, auction house, or eBay. Add to this grading fees, sticker fees, postage, and insurance. Lots of people are taking money out. The only people I see putting money in are collectors. In the end, collectors are paying for everything. This includes the salaries of everyone on staff at the big auction houses, TPGs, dealers, shows, publications, the ANA, travel expenses for all of the above, etc. A lot of this gets overlooked in a rising markets, but when things are stagnant, or prices are falling it becomes a little more evident.
Now, don't think I'm hating on these folks because I'm not. I use and benefit enormously from their services. The best dealers have a tremendous ability to locate and offer nice material. I could never locate the kind of coins I'm collecting without the help of all of the above. I just think people need to have an actual understanding of the concept of "investing" in rare coins.
You've got to compare the opportunity cost. If you take that $200,000 and invest it in index funds (which average around 8% since the 1950s), you'd have $432,000 in ten years and $930,000 in 20 years. Of course, nobody knows the future and coins might do better or worse than that. Some coins will undoubtedly do better. Right now certain areas of the market are strong, but others are dismally stagnant or backsliding. If you can't reliably double your money every 9 years or so, you're better off in index, mutual funds, real estate, or something else. Sadly, the majority of Americans would actually be better off applying most of that $200,000 toward their household debt (averaging $137k right now.)
After all that, if I had $200k to blow on coins, I'd put it towards early US gold and other early type coins.
Why can't we just all play along?
If you believe the PCGS Index's we are near the bottom of 1993 post crash lows.
Much worse if you consider inflation.
I would invest in ANA grading classes and time for research.
Robert Shippee approach comes to mind.
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If I had 200K to invest in coins I would buy a collection of gold bullion and double eagles which sell for a very tiny premium. Thus, I am really talking about putting 200K in gold.
If you invested in gold, the day that the Financial Times weekend edition wrote extensively about the death of gold (1998) your returns to date aren't terrible. Gold traded at roughly $276/ oz so ... no one would be complaining about the investment today. Financial assets get the attention but starting today but looking out over the next 20-40 years which asset class will perform the best? I believe gold has outperformed stocks over the past 20 or so years yet few have noticed.
Will gold continue it's stellar performance or was it a flash in the pan? Go back through the last 5000 years of history and you can decide.
No one should ever buy a six figure coin expecting it to go up. PERIOD. Yes, that means only millionaires should buy 6 figure coins. So what? Would you really advise someone with a net worth of $300,000 (excluding home) to spend $50,000 on a coin in the hopes that it would go up in value? That would be 20% of her net worth in a risky "investment".
I also wouldn't recommend that someone with a net worth of $300,000 put more than $50,000 into a single company's stock. No matter how blue chip you think that company is. It lacks diversification at the very least.
No matter what coin you buy, CAC gold or otherwise, you simply can not expect it to increase in value AT ALL, much less at a rate commensurate with other investment vehicles.
THIS x 100,000
And I'm not sure why anyone would ever take offense at the suggestion that coins are a hobby. No one is saying not to buy coins. People are saying to not buy coins expecting to make a profit. Pay your debts, fully fund your 401k, set aside 6 months in salary, and then spend whatever you have left in whatever manner you wish - FOR THE FUN OF IT!
Nothing.
Im still trying to finish my set. Money is not the problem. Locating the coins is the problem.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I'm sure there are alot of shrewd collectors who would expect a coin to go up if they spent 6 figures. But you avoid my real question----how much do you think someone has to be worth to have a $50,000 collection? I'm not offering investment advice to anyone but if you take your advice it would seem impossible for all but billionaires to buy a five figure coin. How do you feel about someone spending $10,000 on a once in a lifetime family vacation? How much money do they have to have to do that?
Coins are an ...investment................. in posterity.
Great reflections of a collector's mindset at the moment of acquisition.
Sort of like family photos.
Being "money" coins naturally attach to profit/loss.
The "investment" will pay off in pleasure and memories if you let it.
Every single coin that I buy, I look at it As an Investment.
You were talking $50,000 coins. A $50,000 collection is a little different.
Depends on your age.
Let's take a 35 year old who has been maxxing out his 401k for 12 years and makes the median $60,000 per year and has set aside $30,000 in non-retirement savings. That person has a net worth of roughly $300,000 and could easily have accumulated a $50,000 collection by spending $5k per year on coins. A little extravagant (8% of salary per year) on a hobby, but not especially so.
A 45-year old who has been maxxing out his 401k for 22 years and makes $60,000 with $60,000 set aside non-retirement would have a net worth of maybe $500k. They could have accumulated a $50,000 collection at only a little over $2k per year. That is a reasonable expense (4% of salary) on a hobby, methinks.
A 60 year old who spent $1000 per year on coins could have a $50,000 collection even if there net worth was $0 - because they failed to invest anything ever. But I still wouldn't consider that collection to be an investment. But I would say that $1000 per year thrown into coins for fun over 40 years is better than $1000 per year thrown into liquor or some other dubious "hobby".
But if you want to spend $50,000 right this minute on coins, yes I think you should have a $1 million net worth so you are only spending 5% of your net worth.
You can if you want. The math says otherwise.
I believe you and I use different "math"
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
As a dealer, you're a trader, not an investor in the classic sense.
I am all in about 95% to 100% of my assets
More of a hybrid dealer. Many, many of my coins may be in my inventory for ten years. Many others last only one week.
I should have added I dont think any non sophisticated numismatist.... Quite frankly, if you are knowledgeable and have a track record of making money over the years, it would make sense to do what you are doing.
If I had a $200,000 "gift certificate" that could only be spent on coins (the investment and diversification angles of this discussion already adequately covered by others) then,
I'd buy 15-20 different blue chip 1793-1798 US type coins in PCGS/CAC holders.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
No debt saving lifestyle is a must with a stock market at all time highs, another potential building bubble, and run away national debt.
Give me a couple more grading classes, a nimble business approach, and $200K and watch the plastic crack while awaiting the next stock market crash.
Only half kidding.
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With another $200K, I'd buy different varieties of 1794 large cents (EF or better) until the fund is exhausted, and be choosy.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I am building a collection of Mexican cap&rays 8 reales and already have almost 200k in it
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.