@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.
I would also suggest that the bigger disservice is to sell coins as investments. Any dealer can tell you how many hearts were broken and angered when people showed up to cash in their investment after 5 to 10 years only to find out that they are getting 50 or 60 cents on the dollar. The coin market is better served by reasonable expectations
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
If given 200K, I would look to buy 400 coins at a Wholesale price of $500 each.
I would also suggest that the bigger disservice is to sell coins as investments. Any dealer can tell you how many hearts were broken and angered when people showed up to cash in their investment after 5 to 10 years only to find out that they are getting 50 or 60 cents on the dollar. The coin market is better served by reasonable expectations
It's worse than this, on occasion. At various times during the last 15 years, I was in coin shops in Arizona and southern California, and witnessed half a dozen older (than me!) collectors who brought in their entire collections to sell. They all were counting on the proceeds to fund significant portions of their retirement incomes. Instead, they were told very bad news (and I saw the coins in hand--the dealers were being honest). In one case, every coin (more than 100 Spanish colonial and Mexican dollar-size silver coins) was counterfeit and quite underweight. Two others had almost 70-80 U.S. gold coins each, all purchased as MS53-65 but were all polished or harshly cleaned in reality. Another had hundreds of Morgans, all bought for investment, and all AU instead of Ch-Gem BU. Another had a full set of Buffalo nickels--same story--all AU but purchased as Ch-Gem BU. Another came in with a retirement portfolio in U. S. currency--unfortunately each piece was pressed/circulated and not uncirculated as the purchaser represented. A sixth coin seller had MS generics bought in the 1970's, for what were sky-high prices--the coins looked nice, but their values nowadays meant that the seller was buried in them.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
If looking at coin purchasing as an investment, I'd be focused on PQ, condition census examples of low mintage issues with solid collector visibility and interest. The problem is those types of coins only surface occasionally, so patience would be required. Any coin that is generally available for purchase will probably underperform as an investment, IMHO.
I would collect/buy/invest in Proof Gold:
Mintage: 20
Estimated Known: 7-8
Impounded: 1 in ANS, 1 in NNC
Estimated in private hands: 5-6
Graded PCGS & NGC: 4
Auction Appearances: 7 in the last 40 years
Rarity: Is an 1804 Dollar rare?
Price: Probably less than $200,000
@jabba said:
The two $5 and $10 1849 territory gold Oregon exchange company Beavers 200K should get two nice examples
Not anymore, but those are the type of historically important rarities that I would favor. The days of successfully investing in common US coins in uncommon condition are probably gone forever.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I get that some people dislike it when threads like this turn into investment strategy debates. Still, it’s worth repeating, as many (the majority of) people don’t participate in this hobby in a financially responsible way. I have to fight the tendency myself and have to occasionally make adjustments to keep things within reason. Retirement saving, avoidance of debt, adequate insurance, helping others - all that has to come first...... then enjoy the rest!
In truth, any of us with disposable income to play with are quite fortunate.
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
Quite the contrary, I replied directly to the OPs request. He said, what coins would you invest $200k in. I answered NONE. And it is true.
I would also suggest that the bigger disservice is to sell coins as investments. Any dealer can tell you how many hearts were broken and angered when people showed up to cash in their investment after 5 to 10 years only to find out that they are getting 50 or 60 cents on the dollar. The coin market is better served by reasonable expectations
It's worse than this, on occasion. At various times during the last 15 years, I was in coin shops in Arizona and southern California, and witnessed half a dozen older (than me!) collectors who brought in their entire collections to sell. They all were counting on the proceeds to fund significant portions of their retirement incomes. Instead, they were told very bad news (and I saw the coins in hand--the dealers were being honest). In one case, every coin (more than 100 Spanish colonial and Mexican dollar-size silver coins) was counterfeit and quite underweight. Two others had almost 70-80 U.S. gold coins each, all purchased as MS53-65 but were all polished or harshly cleaned in reality. Another had hundreds of Morgans, all bought for investment, and all AU instead of Ch-Gem BU. Another had a full set of Buffalo nickels--same story--all AU but purchased as Ch-Gem BU. Another came in with a retirement portfolio in U. S. currency--unfortunately each piece was pressed/circulated and not uncirculated as the purchaser represented. A sixth coin seller had MS generics bought in the 1970's, for what were sky-high prices--the coins looked nice, but their values nowadays meant that the seller was buried in them.
Yes. Quite.
My worst experience was a kindly old gentleman who had been putting together 3 collections as a legacy to his children. He was now in his 70s and needed the money for medical expenses so he showed up with his "investments" which were largely post 1970 proof sets and sets of later 20th century coins in BU - a few slabs and albums. He was almost in tears when I offered him (GENEROUSLY) roughly 30% of what he had paid. He ran all over town trying to get a better offer and couldn't. When he came back to me, I have never seen anyone look so beaten down in my life. I'm not sure I even broke even on the "investment".
So people (@gazes) can call me Scrooge for raining on their coin investment party, but so be it. The "TV guys" are constantly hyping the "investment potential". The hotel lobby people are constantly hyping the "investment potential". Back in the late 1980s, that entire price bubble was driven by financial advisors sharks hyping the rare coin "investment potential". I like coins. I think people should buy coins for fun. I think anyone who tries to counsel people to "invest" in coins is either naive or a shark.
And keep in mind, I am a part-time dealer. It would be far better for me if the go-go investment packets of 1989 were back in vogue. Back then, you could buy a bag of raw Morgans at a show, slab them and then take 6 months off. But that is simply not the reality of the coin market and has almost never been the reality of the coin market.
The responses are as expected. I invest in bullion, stocks, through my 401k, etc..., with the unemotional intent to retire comfortably.
I am almost 60 years old. I can never remember confusing collecting with investing.
For the benefit of the OP, I am interpreting "investment" as to the time, meaning and pleasure I believe most collectors put into their collections.
Based on my mindset, I would invest the majority of $200,000 into an appropriate balance of business strike American Buffalo and ASE one ounce rounds. Before that, I would ask my trusted LCS owner to help me determine if I should consider any Double Eagles or something else with the Buffaloes. And ask for similar advice on silver.
I could see personal value in a Morgan CC collection: all same condition so most likely AU or as high a MS as possible staying under $20,000 total.
If I had $200.000 that I was going to spend on coins I'd try to finish my set of $5 Liberty gold (except for the 1854-S and 1875).
Minted for 70 years at 7 different mints it offers any collector of US gold a wide range of options at collecting the series; 19th century, 20th century, no motto / with motto. one from each mint, all from one mint, one from each year, civil war issues, all dates and mints, Did I forget anything?
Can you tell I really like the series and think it is a perfect size for the design. With so many low pop issues I also believe the series is under appreciated and under priced. Forget I said that until I finish my set.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Rebel Gold has always had a following. I would do those, or if I felt conservative, buy slabbed common DE’s for about melt and play the bullion market. They are coins after all.
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
Quite the contrary, I replied directly to the OPs request. He said, what coins would you invest $200k in. I answered NONE. And it is true.
Again it's not a black and white issue. My disagreement with you is that if you look at all your posts together, you seem to rule out ever buying an expensive coin whether as a hobby or an investment (unless you have unlimited funds) because you point out over and over and over that you will always do better in the market.
My point is that it's not so black and white. There are some people who are very good with coins and can make money (if you are not ---fine---but dont assume we are all like you). There are some people who will do better buying coins because due to their own personalities they will not invest the money if it's not spent on coins. There are some people who may rather get 3% in coins instead of 10% in stocks due to the immense enjoyment of the hobby. Again if we always followed your advice than no starbucks, no pappy van winkle, no exotic vacations----in other words "less living".
Also, you said your a part time dealer. Do you do it to make a profit? If so, sounds like you can make money in coins. If you are not making money, do you do it because you enjoy coins and your investment in coins makes you happy even though you could make more in stocks?
@guinessmstr45 said:
..what would you buy? Years/Grades/etc. And no - I’m not sitting on a few hundred grand thinking how to invest that in coins - but in theory - a must have/best to have list as investments - would be interesting to see what you all would target if starting out w a blank slate
I am looking at my crystal ball as I type.
Since I did not get a time frame, I am guessing 200K spent over the next 25 years.
My ball is cloudy, but I see a Cherrypickers Guide, a magnifying glass, zoom capable computer monitor, and late night Ebay searches for varieties.
I see your knowledge is your power and long gone is the spasdic collector and the impulsive Ebay purchases.
You are buying, selling, and upgrading along the way with eye to quality an minimizing expenses. You are a pure collector of key dates.
You are making one coin purchase a quarter or every six months.
Ebay is only for disposing of the occasional collection you buy from widows and orphans as you lead your local coin clubs growth.
You are the hunter... no longer the hunted and dealers fear you but still seek you out.
In the end, you go down in numismatic history as one of the great collectors that knew their subject well and had the fortitude to buy quality and hold long term.
Sure, collector horror stories exist but you have made it your life's work to build a Numismatic Library and know the importance of buying the book before buying the coin.
You heirs will enjoy spending their inheritance of millions for many lifetimes.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
Quite the contrary, I replied directly to the OPs request. He said, what coins would you invest $200k in. I answered NONE. And it is true.
Again it's not a black and white issue. My disagreement with you is that if you look at all your posts together, you seem to rule out ever buying an expensive coin whether as a hobby or an investment (unless you have unlimited funds) because you point out over and over and over that you will always do better in the market.
My point is that it's not so black and white. There are some people who are very good with coins and can make money (if you are not ---fine---but dont assume we are all like you). There are some people who will do better buying coins because due to their own personalities they will not invest the money if it's not spent on coins. There are some people who may rather get 3% in coins instead of 10% in stocks due to the immense enjoyment of the hobby. Again if we always followed your advice than no starbucks, no pappy van winkle, no exotic vacations----in other words "less living".
Also, you said your a part time dealer. Do you do it to make a profit? If so, sounds like you can make money in coins. If you are not making money, do you do it because you enjoy coins and your investment in coins makes you happy even though you could make more in stocks?
It's a business, not an investment. The key to a business is the turnover rate. Almost the opposite of an investment. A dealer buys today to sell tomorrow, not 5 years from now. Anything in inventory even 2 years from now was a mistake or a trophy.
For the great art collectors, a few Van Gogh's in the entrance hall are much more enjoyable than looking at a brokerage statement. Art collections are never spent money that is gone, there will always be value when ultimately sold. Coin collectors are art collectors, though not originals but limited, or not so limited, editions.
Art and coin collections are enjoyable places to park money, not necessarily investments, more of a class of assets that will always have some value, up or down over time. Coins are bought from discretionary income, but not "disposable" income as they will retain value.
To answer the OP's question "200k to build a must have collection" - US Mint coins starting with 17 in the date, they are scarce and will always be in high demand.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
If I had to spend $200k on a rare coin investment, I would buy this dime, courtesy Legend Numismatics. I have no faith in my ability to invest in coins, but if Legend, Pogue, and CAC all liked it, I suspect other well-heeled individuals in the future will as well.
Be careful about jumping in without knowledge of the series. The first thousand or so of the investment should be spent on books, auction catalogs, and travel to shows to view coins in hand. Joining a coin club is a very inexpensive venture as well and may provide a certain insight you can only get from sitting together with others and looking at coins.
Once you’re at the point where you’re ready to jump in, buy a few lower priced items and sit on them for 6 months or so, decide whether you really like the set and how the ones you picked out compare to what else is out there. If you are satisfied you’re on the right track, then spend some more money.
Personally I would buy mid 19th century gold half eagles and quarter eagles from Philadelphia and San Francisco, I see these as underrated and prices have been depressed for a while. The branch mints of Charlotte, Dahlonega, and New Orleans are popular but seem more fully priced. I would not aim for highest grade, preferring wholesome AU. CAC would be a plus as well. It is important to avoid cleaned and otherwise processed examples.
You won’t be able to spend your 200k all that fast as these coins are much more hard to find than you’d expect!
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
Quite the contrary, I replied directly to the OPs request. He said, what coins would you invest $200k in. I answered NONE. And it is true.
Again it's not a black and white issue. My disagreement with you is that if you look at all your posts together, you seem to rule out ever buying an expensive coin whether as a hobby or an investment (unless you have unlimited funds) because you point out over and over and over that you will always do better in the market.
My point is that it's not so black and white. There are some people who are very good with coins and can make money (if you are not ---fine---but dont assume we are all like you). There are some people who will do better buying coins because due to their own personalities they will not invest the money if it's not spent on coins. There are some people who may rather get 3% in coins instead of 10% in stocks due to the immense enjoyment of the hobby. Again if we always followed your advice than no starbucks, no pappy van winkle, no exotic vacations----in other words "less living".
Also, you said your a part time dealer. Do you do it to make a profit? If so, sounds like you can make money in coins. If you are not making money, do you do it because you enjoy coins and your investment in coins makes you happy even though you could make more in stocks?
It's a business, not an investment. The key to a business is the turnover rate. Almost the opposite of an investment. A dealer buys today to sell tomorrow, not 5 years from now. Anything in inventory even 2 years from now was a mistake or a trophy.
Again, you seem to view things black and white when convenient for you but more ambigious when it suits your purpose. You seem to be saying you can make money from coins when you call it a "business" but not an "investment". Also, recognize that "businesses" have different models. You say any coin held for 2 years is a mistake or a trophy. Again, another black and white rule you state without really any basis. If I was a dealer I would try to price coins so I turned them over quickly. However, there are some very successful dealers who keep coins in inventory for years and figure a way to make a profit by pricing them to reflect the hold time. This can be done with higher priced unique coins.
The most telling thing to me is that you respond to the OP that if he had $200,000 to invest in coins you would buy nothing. Whether you want to call it a hobby, investment, business, whatever----I love coins and can't imagine having $200,000 to invest and not buying something! How about forgetting about the S & P for a second and buying a proof gold dollar in high grade from the 1860s or 1870s with a know existence of 10-15 for $30,000 and then you can buy stocks with the rest?
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a thread like this where someone says what coins would you buy if you had X dollars---there are the knee jerk reactions like ---invest in stocks, buy bonds, etc. This is a coin forum----we like to talk about coins not the stock market. I have noticed over the years that the people who post "not to buy coins" have a very high percentage of having sold their collection, not collecting anymore or collecting world coins not US (I noticed this when I read their other posts).
I dont think anyone is putting 90% , 75% or 50% of their money into coins (unless they are a dealer). And if they are, they are not doing it because of advice they are getting on an anonymous message board. So I dont think you need to lose sleep that people are in line to invest their life savings in coins. However, when you automatically respond to any question about a high price coin or buying coins that it is a horrible investment----you hurt the discussion of coins. I would love to hear specific dates and series someone would buy (it opens me to coins I'm not familiar with), what coins seem to be in demand, collection ideas in general etc. Again, this is a coin forum and I would rather hear about coins than the automatic stock market response that seems to cut off debate.
With all due respect, the OP asked about investing in coins. I DID NOT randomly comment on the nature of coins as an investment.
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
Quite the contrary, I replied directly to the OPs request. He said, what coins would you invest $200k in. I answered NONE. And it is true.
Again it's not a black and white issue. My disagreement with you is that if you look at all your posts together, you seem to rule out ever buying an expensive coin whether as a hobby or an investment (unless you have unlimited funds) because you point out over and over and over that you will always do better in the market.
My point is that it's not so black and white. There are some people who are very good with coins and can make money (if you are not ---fine---but dont assume we are all like you). There are some people who will do better buying coins because due to their own personalities they will not invest the money if it's not spent on coins. There are some people who may rather get 3% in coins instead of 10% in stocks due to the immense enjoyment of the hobby. Again if we always followed your advice than no starbucks, no pappy van winkle, no exotic vacations----in other words "less living".
Also, you said your a part time dealer. Do you do it to make a profit? If so, sounds like you can make money in coins. If you are not making money, do you do it because you enjoy coins and your investment in coins makes you happy even though you could make more in stocks?
It's a business, not an investment. The key to a business is the turnover rate. Almost the opposite of an investment. A dealer buys today to sell tomorrow, not 5 years from now. Anything in inventory even 2 years from now was a mistake or a trophy.
Again, you seem to view things black and white when convenient for you but more ambigious when it suits your purpose. You seem to be saying you can make money from coins when you call it a "business" but not an "investment". Also, recognize that "businesses" have different models. You say any coin held for 2 years is a mistake or a trophy. Again, another black and white rule you state without really any basis. If I was a dealer I would try to price coins so I turned them over quickly. However, there are some very successful dealers who keep coins in inventory for years and figure a way to make a profit by pricing them to reflect the hold time. This can be done with higher priced unique coins.
The most telling thing to me is that you respond to the OP that if he had $200,000 to invest in coins you would buy nothing. Whether you want to call it a hobby, investment, business, whatever----I love coins and can't imagine having $200,000 to invest and not buying something! How about forgetting about the S & P for a second and buying a proof gold dollar in high grade from the 1860s or 1870s with a know existence of 10-15 for $30,000 and then you can buy stocks with the rest?
What are you talking about? I never said you couldn't make money from coins. I said (and still say) that they are NOT investments. Walmart makes money from bread, that doesn't make bread an investment.
Anyone selling anything buys it today and sells it today and makes money on the wholesale/retail spread. A coin dealer can, and should, make money even if prices are dropping. Why? Because they don't "invest" in coins. They buy them and sell them almost immediately. As long as the price isn't dropping by the hour, you make money.
I've made a lot of money on circulated raw Morgan dollars over the last 20 years, even though the price of those have been dropping. Why? Because I haven't been holding them for 20 years. I buy them and sell them almost immediately.
There's nothing "ambiguous" about that.
And yes, I state unequivocally that any coin that I PERSONALLY holds for 2 years is either a mistake or a trophy. I didn't state that as a broad rule. Although it is a rule for 95% of dealers. Ask the rest of the dealers on this thread. Some dealers hold things for long periods, but that might well come under the "trophy" category.
If I had $200k in free cash I would buy a coin or two. Scroll up. I said to buy coins...AS A HOBBY. I would NOT buy ANY coins as an investment which is all I ever said...as have several others. I'm not sure why you feel threatened by that.
I would not EVER EVER EVER buy coins as an investment. I never have and never will.
As a dealer I would NEVER NEVER NEVER buy a coin to hold for even one year. I never have and never will.
You - and anyone else - are free to do whatever you want and call it whatever you want.
$200K would be a fun coin budget to think about. I would replace my AU58-MS61 complete set of Indian quarter eagles with really choice high end grades as my first buy as they are my favorite coins. I love having this as a complete set.
Then I would explore the same with Indian Eagles (I'm not familiar with the costs of the key dates in that series as I have just one as a type example).
I would definitely buy a High Relief Saint in the mix as well. After the above I would evaluate my remaining budget.
Wow. First of all, welcome to the Boards. As you’ve undoubtedly noted, the waters on the Boards go from toe-deep to neck-deep in a hurry.
The Boards are an incredible wealth of numismatic knowledge and experience, but the price of such is unasked for opinions and sidebar debates. I don't see your original post as asking for life advice, so I would just ignore the noise.
You have already struck a chord with the word investment, so I will forego any thoughts about what you might hope to recoup 1 year, 10 years, 20 years or post-you later. What would I do with $200k to build a must-have collection?
First, I would have to ask, "who's going to do the work?" Do you want to learn about history, populations, trends, auction prices and the myriad of other factors that might affect your decisions? Or do you want someone else to do this for you and offer advice?" If the answer is you, we can continue with your $200k collection. If the answer is someone else, we could continue with your $150k collection, but why - you would be looking for, and paying someone to, answer the question(s) you have posed. So let's stipulate you are going the DIY $200k route.
And second, although technically you might be able to argue one coin constitutes a collection, I think most of us would not think this way. So let’s stipulate a one coin purchase/collection is not what you are looking for.
Now what? My thoughts and opinions on SOME of the things I would consider and SOME of the directions I think I would be pulled:
I like the concept of not putting all my eggs in one basket (collecting or investing).
I personally prefer the 40 $5,000 coin approach over the 4 $50,000 coins or 400 $500 coins approaches.
Common rarities. 09SVDB/14-D Lincolns, 16-D Mercury, 32-D Washington, 85/86 Liberty Nickels, 38-D Walker, etc. are not really rare. Yes, they made few of them, but over the years many were held back. Search eBay. They are available pretty much all day, every day. If you've always wanted one, go for it - it's your collection. They are also fairly liquid, but usually not at 100% of the original purchase price.
I'm surprised someone hasn't said, " a really nice, high end, Type Set" (they may have by now). What a cool type set you could build with $200k.
My collecting interests include very few 19th century coins. If I had the $200k, I would include more.
No RD copper for me, I don't like the risk/reward proposition.
No coins after 1964.
Some of my holy grail candidates: 1907 High Relief Saint in MS62-64 range. 1914-D and one of 1913-S/1914-S/1915-S Lincolns in MS64-65 BN range. 1917 T1 and 1921 SLQs in MS65-66 range. Pair of 1921 and 1921-D Mercs in MS65-66 range. A 1919-D or S Walker in the MS62-63 range. Indian $5 and $10 gold. An MS63 Draped Bust Cent. An MS65-66 chocolate BN, common date Coronet Cent. An Indian Cent, MS65-66 BN range, not a key date. A $10k Draped Bust Dollar T2. 1915-S Pan Pac and 1939-S Oregon Commems in MS67. A Buffalo, something along the lines of a 1920-D or 1923-S in MS65.
You'll notice an absence of seated, trade and Barbers. That's just me and what I don't fancy. I don't fancy Morgans either, but any collection HAS to have at least one Morgan, right? So, something like an 1883-S or 1886-O in MS64.
I think there still might be money for gorgeous, complete, gem BU sets of Jeffersons, Roosevelts and Franklins. Raw or slabs. Perhaps even a 39 Double Monticello in MS66.
If I had the above, I would like to think, 1. I had fun building such a collection, and 2. I frequently pulled the coins out to look, marvel and wonder about them (as opposed to them being locked up in a SDB).
I had fun with your post, thanks for posting.
My five cents worth.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve
What are you talking about? I never said you couldn't make money from coins. I said (and still say) that they are NOT investments. Walmart makes money from bread, that doesn't make bread an investment.
....
I would not EVER EVER EVER buy coins as an investment. I never have and never will.
As a dealer I would NEVER NEVER NEVER buy a coin to hold for even one year. I never ....
This is crystal clear-- like an azure sky of deepest summer.
I understand that This is a coin board but I continue to be amazed how almost no one pushes gold as an investment.
Otherwise, a portfolio of AGE would be considered. Then again, maybe AGE's don't fit into the "rare coin" collecting space?
Sure, gold coins are talked about and collected. Some would even put that rare piece in the portfolio. The gold almost seems incidental while everything is in the rarity value. As I said, this is a coin board so it makes sense.
I am reading a small sample size on these boards as most readers night not post. So...my conclusions might be ill founded.
Perhaps anyone who bought gold in the last 40 years learned the life lesson that gold has not been a particularly wise investment? Going from $800/oz in 1980 to $1700 today.... not a great return versus most other assets. Since gold is more of an insurance policy against potential economic difficulties does pessimism sell ? Is an insurance policy an investment? There is no return when holding gold so who wants to push the metal? Can gold be properly valued when demand can collapse in a heartbeat? In general, I am comfortable with small interest from others in any area I invest so that's good. Then again, Perhaps gold will prove to be a worthless relic? Thus, the coin is everything and gold incidental.
When I see that coin buyers have such little interest in the metal I wonder if better days are ahead?
Yes, I would put my 200k in gold coins over time. An investment or insurance policy? does it matter what one calls it?
If nothing else, the metal will outlive me, my heirs will have to decide what to do with it and my hope is that one day that they are happy with the holdings and not laughing at me for falling for a midnight infomercial about the value of gold coins.
Read it years ago, but I just recieved the Robert Shippee book "One Hundred Lessons" about his Type set collection.
I am at a crossroads with my own collecting interests and with the OP's question and Shippee as a framework, I went have been going thru almost every registry set available.
Easily, could start with a dozen series before getting into more specialized items... half cents, half dimes, seated etc...
Probably why Box of Twenty idea originated......
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
@Gazes said:
No one on this thread has said anything offensive but it is a pet peeve
What are you talking about? I never said you couldn't make money from coins. I said (and still say) that they are NOT investments. Walmart makes money from bread, that doesn't make bread an investment.
....
I would not EVER EVER EVER buy coins as an investment. I never have and never will.
As a dealer I would NEVER NEVER NEVER buy a coin to hold for even one year. I never ....
This is crystal clear-- like an azure sky of deepest summer.
@jkrk said:
I understand that This is a coin board but I continue to be amazed how almost no one pushes gold as an investment.
Otherwise, a portfolio of AGE would be considered. Then again, maybe AGE's don't fit into the "rare coin" collecting space?
Sure, gold coins are talked about and collected. Some would even put that rare piece in the portfolio. The gold almost seems incidental while everything is in the rarity value. As I said, this is a coin board so it makes sense.
I am reading a small sample size on these boards as most readers night not post. So...my conclusions might be ill founded.
Perhaps anyone who bought gold in the last 40 years learned the life lesson that gold has not been a particularly wise investment? Going from $800/oz in 1980 to $1700 today.... not a great return versus most other assets. Since gold is more of an insurance policy against potential economic difficulties does pessimism sell ? Is an insurance policy an investment? There is no return when holding gold so who wants to push the metal? Can gold be properly valued when demand can collapse in a heartbeat? In general, I am comfortable with small interest from others in any area I invest so that's good. Then again, Perhaps gold will prove to be a worthless relic? Thus, the coin is everything and gold incidental.
When I see that coin buyers have such little interest in the metal I wonder if better days are ahead?
Yes, I would put my 200k in gold coins over time. An investment or insurance policy? does it matter what one calls it?
If nothing else, the metal will outlive me, my heirs will have to decide what to do with it and my hope is that one day that they are happy with the holdings and not laughing at me for falling for a midnight infomercial about the value of gold coins.
A lot of people push gold for the insurance policy recommendation. As one analyst put it to me, that really made sense: do you ever hope to collect on your fire insurance?
Nice reply @JeffersonFrog . You actually answered his question.
As far as gold goes, I offer a single data point. I accumulated some gold during the last three to four years. I sold 5 ounces today, and realized a profit of $1087.86. That sounds pretty good, but this represents an ROI of just over 3% annually. It’s better than a savings account, but not nearly so good as what my retirement accounts are doing. Had you purchased at $400 and sold today at $1682, it would be a nice return, but that requires perfect timing and a bit of luck.
well... with that kind of money, I'd definitely be able to finish my 7070 type set... with gold page. I'd also have a fairly nice 18th C. Type set... not sre how much gold I'd be able to do, but I could put a healthy dent in it...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
Gold is a stable medium for all intensive purpose when the traditional markets are in Limbo.
@jkrk said:
I understand that This is a coin board but I continue to be amazed how almost no one pushes gold as an investment.
Otherwise, a portfolio of AGE would be considered. Then again, maybe AGE's don't fit into the "rare coin" collecting space?
Sure, gold coins are talked about and collected. Some would even put that rare piece in the portfolio. The gold almost seems incidental while everything is in the rarity value. As I said, this is a coin board so it makes sense.
I am reading a small sample size on these boards as most readers night not post. So...my conclusions might be ill founded.
Perhaps anyone who bought gold in the last 40 years learned the life lesson that gold has not been a particularly wise investment? Going from $800/oz in 1980 to $1700 today.... not a great return versus most other assets. Since gold is more of an insurance policy against potential economic difficulties does pessimism sell ? Is an insurance policy an investment? There is no return when holding gold so who wants to push the metal? Can gold be properly valued when demand can collapse in a heartbeat? In general, I am comfortable with small interest from others in any area I invest so that's good. Then again, Perhaps gold will prove to be a worthless relic? Thus, the coin is everything and gold incidental.
When I see that coin buyers have such little interest in the metal I wonder if better days are ahead?
Yes, I would put my 200k in gold coins over time. An investment or insurance policy? does it matter what one calls it?
If nothing else, the metal will outlive me, my heirs will have to decide what to do with it and my hope is that one day that they are happy with the holdings and not laughing at me for falling for a midnight infomercial about the value of gold coins.
As far as gold goes, I offer a single data point. I accumulated some gold during the last three to four years. I sold 5 ounces today, and realized a profit of $1087.86. That sounds pretty good, but this represents an ROI of just over 3% annually. It’s better than a savings account, but not nearly so good as what my retirement accounts are doing. Had you purchased at $400 and sold today at $1682, it would be a nice return, but that requires perfect timing and a bit of luck.
Your ROI was what I made when I sold my foreign gold set (European-Latin American, many were raw). I did not time the 2015 sell well (due to a lack of attention), as I could have doubled my ROI if I had sold them sooner.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
some other coins to consider buying with $200,000 that are always in demand and would be fairly liquid to sell: a liberty quarter eagle 1848 CAL CAC in almost any grade; any unc Dahlonega quarter eagle that is CAC (very few exist); a gem 1911-D and 1914-D indian quarter eagle CAC; all proof gold with survival rates of 25 or less in PCGS/CAC. Can you just go out and buy some of these coins right away?---no, but that is what makes them truly rare coins. Maybe a strategy is to see what Hansen needs and go buy that first!
One other point about posts that simply say never "invest" in coins and buy a S & P 500 ETF. People must adapt over time since what works now won't work in the future. Don't let anyone fool you that the S & P 500 is a truly diversified investment---in 2018 5 stocks (apple, Microsoft, google, amazon and facebook) made up 15% of the index. Whether or not the S & P 500 will be as profitable going forward---who knows. Other stock investments may do far better than the S & P 500. If you are a tennis player growing up in the 80s, they teach hitting a forehand completely different now. The golf swing is very different now (just watch a PGA player's foot work now as opposed to 15 years ago). So for instance, in my recommendations I would recommend all CAC coins---others may disagree but my thought on expensive coins is that CAC is an important factor to consider. Think outside the box and do a lot of homework before spending a lot of money on coins. Plus doing the homework is most the fun and then hopefully you get enjoyment and make money.
Warren Buffet is a pretty decent investor so I try to follow his methodology when considering coins:
“If you aren’t willing to own a stock for ten years, don’t even think about owning it for ten minutes.”
And while stocks pay dividends, coins pay dividends in enjoyment. I personally value this exactly equal to inflation so if I break even, I'm happy; if I turn a profit, I'm happier. And, sometimes it's necessary to take the emotion out of your price paid and take a loss to buy something better.
Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
Comments
Exactly.
I would also suggest that the bigger disservice is to sell coins as investments. Any dealer can tell you how many hearts were broken and angered when people showed up to cash in their investment after 5 to 10 years only to find out that they are getting 50 or 60 cents on the dollar. The coin market is better served by reasonable expectations
The OP asked what coins would you buy/invest in if you had $200,000 to spend. Your response was you wouldnt use any of it to buy coins (so you ignored the OPs request) As I said, it's a coin forum. Let's hear what coins people would want. We understand that you wouldnt buy coins with it. Let's see what others would buy.
If given 200K, I would look to buy 400 coins at a Wholesale price of $500 each.
I like to break up "risk"
The two $5 and $10 1849 territory gold Oregon exchange company Beavers 200K should get two nice examples
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
It's worse than this, on occasion. At various times during the last 15 years, I was in coin shops in Arizona and southern California, and witnessed half a dozen older (than me!) collectors who brought in their entire collections to sell. They all were counting on the proceeds to fund significant portions of their retirement incomes. Instead, they were told very bad news (and I saw the coins in hand--the dealers were being honest). In one case, every coin (more than 100 Spanish colonial and Mexican dollar-size silver coins) was counterfeit and quite underweight. Two others had almost 70-80 U.S. gold coins each, all purchased as MS53-65 but were all polished or harshly cleaned in reality. Another had hundreds of Morgans, all bought for investment, and all AU instead of Ch-Gem BU. Another had a full set of Buffalo nickels--same story--all AU but purchased as Ch-Gem BU. Another came in with a retirement portfolio in U. S. currency--unfortunately each piece was pressed/circulated and not uncirculated as the purchaser represented. A sixth coin seller had MS generics bought in the 1970's, for what were sky-high prices--the coins looked nice, but their values nowadays meant that the seller was buried in them.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If looking at coin purchasing as an investment, I'd be focused on PQ, condition census examples of low mintage issues with solid collector visibility and interest. The problem is those types of coins only surface occasionally, so patience would be required. Any coin that is generally available for purchase will probably underperform as an investment, IMHO.
I would collect/buy/invest in Proof Gold:
Mintage: 20
Estimated Known: 7-8
Impounded: 1 in ANS, 1 in NNC
Estimated in private hands: 5-6
Graded PCGS & NGC: 4
Auction Appearances: 7 in the last 40 years
Rarity: Is an 1804 Dollar rare?
Price: Probably less than $200,000
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
Not anymore, but those are the type of historically important rarities that I would favor. The days of successfully investing in common US coins in uncommon condition are probably gone forever.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Id buy land. Not coins
To stay on topic, IF I had $200k earmarked for coins, I would buy Bechtler gold.
I get that some people dislike it when threads like this turn into investment strategy debates. Still, it’s worth repeating, as many (the majority of) people don’t participate in this hobby in a financially responsible way. I have to fight the tendency myself and have to occasionally make adjustments to keep things within reason. Retirement saving, avoidance of debt, adequate insurance, helping others - all that has to come first...... then enjoy the rest!
In truth, any of us with disposable income to play with are quite fortunate.
Quite the contrary, I replied directly to the OPs request. He said, what coins would you invest $200k in. I answered NONE. And it is true.
Yes. Quite.
My worst experience was a kindly old gentleman who had been putting together 3 collections as a legacy to his children. He was now in his 70s and needed the money for medical expenses so he showed up with his "investments" which were largely post 1970 proof sets and sets of later 20th century coins in BU - a few slabs and albums. He was almost in tears when I offered him (GENEROUSLY) roughly 30% of what he had paid. He ran all over town trying to get a better offer and couldn't. When he came back to me, I have never seen anyone look so beaten down in my life. I'm not sure I even broke even on the "investment".
So people (@gazes) can call me Scrooge for raining on their coin investment party, but so be it. The "TV guys" are constantly hyping the "investment potential". The hotel lobby people are constantly hyping the "investment potential". Back in the late 1980s, that entire price bubble was driven by financial advisors sharks hyping the rare coin "investment potential". I like coins. I think people should buy coins for fun. I think anyone who tries to counsel people to "invest" in coins is either naive or a shark.
And keep in mind, I am a part-time dealer. It would be far better for me if the go-go investment packets of 1989 were back in vogue. Back then, you could buy a bag of raw Morgans at a show, slab them and then take 6 months off. But that is simply not the reality of the coin market and has almost never been the reality of the coin market.
The responses are as expected. I invest in bullion, stocks, through my 401k, etc..., with the unemotional intent to retire comfortably.
I am almost 60 years old. I can never remember confusing collecting with investing.
For the benefit of the OP, I am interpreting "investment" as to the time, meaning and pleasure I believe most collectors put into their collections.
Based on my mindset, I would invest the majority of $200,000 into an appropriate balance of business strike American Buffalo and ASE one ounce rounds. Before that, I would ask my trusted LCS owner to help me determine if I should consider any Double Eagles or something else with the Buffaloes. And ask for similar advice on silver.
I could see personal value in a Morgan CC collection: all same condition so most likely AU or as high a MS as possible staying under $20,000 total.
If I had $200.000 that I was going to spend on coins I'd try to finish my set of $5 Liberty gold (except for the 1854-S and 1875).
Minted for 70 years at 7 different mints it offers any collector of US gold a wide range of options at collecting the series; 19th century, 20th century, no motto / with motto. one from each mint, all from one mint, one from each year, civil war issues, all dates and mints, Did I forget anything?
Can you tell I really like the series and think it is a perfect size for the design. With so many low pop issues I also believe the series is under appreciated and under priced. Forget I said that until I finish my set.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Rebel Gold has always had a following. I would do those, or if I felt conservative, buy slabbed common DE’s for about melt and play the bullion market. They are coins after all.
Again it's not a black and white issue. My disagreement with you is that if you look at all your posts together, you seem to rule out ever buying an expensive coin whether as a hobby or an investment (unless you have unlimited funds) because you point out over and over and over that you will always do better in the market.
My point is that it's not so black and white. There are some people who are very good with coins and can make money (if you are not ---fine---but dont assume we are all like you). There are some people who will do better buying coins because due to their own personalities they will not invest the money if it's not spent on coins. There are some people who may rather get 3% in coins instead of 10% in stocks due to the immense enjoyment of the hobby. Again if we always followed your advice than no starbucks, no pappy van winkle, no exotic vacations----in other words "less living".
Also, you said your a part time dealer. Do you do it to make a profit? If so, sounds like you can make money in coins. If you are not making money, do you do it because you enjoy coins and your investment in coins makes you happy even though you could make more in stocks?
I am looking at my crystal ball as I type.
Since I did not get a time frame, I am guessing 200K spent over the next 25 years.
My ball is cloudy, but I see a Cherrypickers Guide, a magnifying glass, zoom capable computer monitor, and late night Ebay searches for varieties.
I see your knowledge is your power and long gone is the spasdic collector and the impulsive Ebay purchases.
You are buying, selling, and upgrading along the way with eye to quality an minimizing expenses. You are a pure collector of key dates.
You are making one coin purchase a quarter or every six months.
Ebay is only for disposing of the occasional collection you buy from widows and orphans as you lead your local coin clubs growth.
You are the hunter... no longer the hunted and dealers fear you but still seek you out.
In the end, you go down in numismatic history as one of the great collectors that knew their subject well and had the fortitude to buy quality and hold long term.
Sure, collector horror stories exist but you have made it your life's work to build a Numismatic Library and know the importance of buying the book before buying the coin.
You heirs will enjoy spending their inheritance of millions for many lifetimes.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Thinking....
Just coins I enjoy collect. Mexico 50 Peso gold slabbed set for sure.
It's a business, not an investment. The key to a business is the turnover rate. Almost the opposite of an investment. A dealer buys today to sell tomorrow, not 5 years from now. Anything in inventory even 2 years from now was a mistake or a trophy.
For the great art collectors, a few Van Gogh's in the entrance hall are much more enjoyable than looking at a brokerage statement. Art collections are never spent money that is gone, there will always be value when ultimately sold. Coin collectors are art collectors, though not originals but limited, or not so limited, editions.
Art and coin collections are enjoyable places to park money, not necessarily investments, more of a class of assets that will always have some value, up or down over time. Coins are bought from discretionary income, but not "disposable" income as they will retain value.
To answer the OP's question "200k to build a must have collection" - US Mint coins starting with 17 in the date, they are scarce and will always be in high demand.
If I had to spend $200k on a rare coin investment, I would buy this dime, courtesy Legend Numismatics. I have no faith in my ability to invest in coins, but if Legend, Pogue, and CAC all liked it, I suspect other well-heeled individuals in the future will as well.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
This!
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-barber-half-dollars-1892-1915/album/93006
Showoff
I like it a lot.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Be careful about jumping in without knowledge of the series. The first thousand or so of the investment should be spent on books, auction catalogs, and travel to shows to view coins in hand. Joining a coin club is a very inexpensive venture as well and may provide a certain insight you can only get from sitting together with others and looking at coins.
Once you’re at the point where you’re ready to jump in, buy a few lower priced items and sit on them for 6 months or so, decide whether you really like the set and how the ones you picked out compare to what else is out there. If you are satisfied you’re on the right track, then spend some more money.
Personally I would buy mid 19th century gold half eagles and quarter eagles from Philadelphia and San Francisco, I see these as underrated and prices have been depressed for a while. The branch mints of Charlotte, Dahlonega, and New Orleans are popular but seem more fully priced. I would not aim for highest grade, preferring wholesome AU. CAC would be a plus as well. It is important to avoid cleaned and otherwise processed examples.
You won’t be able to spend your 200k all that fast as these coins are much more hard to find than you’d expect!
Again, you seem to view things black and white when convenient for you but more ambigious when it suits your purpose. You seem to be saying you can make money from coins when you call it a "business" but not an "investment". Also, recognize that "businesses" have different models. You say any coin held for 2 years is a mistake or a trophy. Again, another black and white rule you state without really any basis. If I was a dealer I would try to price coins so I turned them over quickly. However, there are some very successful dealers who keep coins in inventory for years and figure a way to make a profit by pricing them to reflect the hold time. This can be done with higher priced unique coins.
The most telling thing to me is that you respond to the OP that if he had $200,000 to invest in coins you would buy nothing. Whether you want to call it a hobby, investment, business, whatever----I love coins and can't imagine having $200,000 to invest and not buying something! How about forgetting about the S & P for a second and buying a proof gold dollar in high grade from the 1860s or 1870s with a know existence of 10-15 for $30,000 and then you can buy stocks with the rest?
What are you talking about? I never said you couldn't make money from coins. I said (and still say) that they are NOT investments. Walmart makes money from bread, that doesn't make bread an investment.
Anyone selling anything buys it today and sells it today and makes money on the wholesale/retail spread. A coin dealer can, and should, make money even if prices are dropping. Why? Because they don't "invest" in coins. They buy them and sell them almost immediately. As long as the price isn't dropping by the hour, you make money.
I've made a lot of money on circulated raw Morgan dollars over the last 20 years, even though the price of those have been dropping. Why? Because I haven't been holding them for 20 years. I buy them and sell them almost immediately.
There's nothing "ambiguous" about that.
And yes, I state unequivocally that any coin that I PERSONALLY holds for 2 years is either a mistake or a trophy. I didn't state that as a broad rule. Although it is a rule for 95% of dealers. Ask the rest of the dealers on this thread. Some dealers hold things for long periods, but that might well come under the "trophy" category.
If I had $200k in free cash I would buy a coin or two. Scroll up. I said to buy coins...AS A HOBBY. I would NOT buy ANY coins as an investment which is all I ever said...as have several others. I'm not sure why you feel threatened by that.
I would not EVER EVER EVER buy coins as an investment. I never have and never will.
As a dealer I would NEVER NEVER NEVER buy a coin to hold for even one year. I never have and never will.
You - and anyone else - are free to do whatever you want and call it whatever you want.
The vast majority of my coins are Trophy Coins that I am willing to hold for a decade.
Every single coin I buy is an investment, Period.
$200K would be a fun coin budget to think about. I would replace my AU58-MS61 complete set of Indian quarter eagles with really choice high end grades as my first buy as they are my favorite coins. I love having this as a complete set.
Then I would explore the same with Indian Eagles (I'm not familiar with the costs of the key dates in that series as I have just one as a type example).
I would definitely buy a High Relief Saint in the mix as well. After the above I would evaluate my remaining budget.
I'd go for a nice set of Panama Pacific commems.
Wow. First of all, welcome to the Boards. As you’ve undoubtedly noted, the waters on the Boards go from toe-deep to neck-deep in a hurry.
The Boards are an incredible wealth of numismatic knowledge and experience, but the price of such is unasked for opinions and sidebar debates. I don't see your original post as asking for life advice, so I would just ignore the noise.
You have already struck a chord with the word investment, so I will forego any thoughts about what you might hope to recoup 1 year, 10 years, 20 years or post-you later. What would I do with $200k to build a must-have collection?
First, I would have to ask, "who's going to do the work?" Do you want to learn about history, populations, trends, auction prices and the myriad of other factors that might affect your decisions? Or do you want someone else to do this for you and offer advice?" If the answer is you, we can continue with your $200k collection. If the answer is someone else, we could continue with your $150k collection, but why - you would be looking for, and paying someone to, answer the question(s) you have posed. So let's stipulate you are going the DIY $200k route.
And second, although technically you might be able to argue one coin constitutes a collection, I think most of us would not think this way. So let’s stipulate a one coin purchase/collection is not what you are looking for.
Now what? My thoughts and opinions on SOME of the things I would consider and SOME of the directions I think I would be pulled:
If I had the above, I would like to think, 1. I had fun building such a collection, and 2. I frequently pulled the coins out to look, marvel and wonder about them (as opposed to them being locked up in a SDB).
I had fun with your post, thanks for posting.
My five cents worth.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
This is crystal clear-- like an azure sky of deepest summer.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
This as crystal clear as the watery depths surrounding Pacific islands
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I understand that This is a coin board but I continue to be amazed how almost no one pushes gold as an investment.
Otherwise, a portfolio of AGE would be considered. Then again, maybe AGE's don't fit into the "rare coin" collecting space?
Sure, gold coins are talked about and collected. Some would even put that rare piece in the portfolio. The gold almost seems incidental while everything is in the rarity value. As I said, this is a coin board so it makes sense.
I am reading a small sample size on these boards as most readers night not post. So...my conclusions might be ill founded.
Perhaps anyone who bought gold in the last 40 years learned the life lesson that gold has not been a particularly wise investment? Going from $800/oz in 1980 to $1700 today.... not a great return versus most other assets. Since gold is more of an insurance policy against potential economic difficulties does pessimism sell ? Is an insurance policy an investment? There is no return when holding gold so who wants to push the metal? Can gold be properly valued when demand can collapse in a heartbeat? In general, I am comfortable with small interest from others in any area I invest so that's good. Then again, Perhaps gold will prove to be a worthless relic? Thus, the coin is everything and gold incidental.
When I see that coin buyers have such little interest in the metal I wonder if better days are ahead?
Yes, I would put my 200k in gold coins over time. An investment or insurance policy? does it matter what one calls it?
If nothing else, the metal will outlive me, my heirs will have to decide what to do with it and my hope is that one day that they are happy with the holdings and not laughing at me for falling for a midnight infomercial about the value of gold coins.
I way overpaid for a PCGS trophy last night.
I really hope to keep it for a decade or more as it is so freaking beautiful.
I will be really bummed if it sells next week
.
Read it years ago, but I just recieved the Robert Shippee book "One Hundred Lessons" about his Type set collection.
I am at a crossroads with my own collecting interests and with the OP's question and Shippee as a framework, I went have been going thru almost every registry set available.
Easily, could start with a dozen series before getting into more specialized items... half cents, half dimes, seated etc...
Probably why Box of Twenty idea originated......
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
LOL
I thought so, also. But he keeps asking...
A lot of people push gold for the insurance policy recommendation. As one analyst put it to me, that really made sense: do you ever hope to collect on your fire insurance?
I will concede that I hold the gold for insurance purposes.
That said, I also hold a life insurance policy.
Do I hope to collect? NO.. but there's a reality. LOL
Nice reply @JeffersonFrog . You actually answered his question.
As far as gold goes, I offer a single data point. I accumulated some gold during the last three to four years. I sold 5 ounces today, and realized a profit of $1087.86. That sounds pretty good, but this represents an ROI of just over 3% annually. It’s better than a savings account, but not nearly so good as what my retirement accounts are doing. Had you purchased at $400 and sold today at $1682, it would be a nice return, but that requires perfect timing and a bit of luck.
well... with that kind of money, I'd definitely be able to finish my 7070 type set... with gold page. I'd also have a fairly nice 18th C. Type set... not sre how much gold I'd be able to do, but I could put a healthy dent in it...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Gold is a stable medium for all intensive purpose when the traditional markets are in Limbo.
Your ROI was what I made when I sold my foreign gold set (European-Latin American, many were raw). I did not time the 2015 sell well (due to a lack of attention), as I could have doubled my ROI if I had sold them sooner.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
some other coins to consider buying with $200,000 that are always in demand and would be fairly liquid to sell: a liberty quarter eagle 1848 CAL CAC in almost any grade; any unc Dahlonega quarter eagle that is CAC (very few exist); a gem 1911-D and 1914-D indian quarter eagle CAC; all proof gold with survival rates of 25 or less in PCGS/CAC. Can you just go out and buy some of these coins right away?---no, but that is what makes them truly rare coins. Maybe a strategy is to see what Hansen needs and go buy that first!
One other point about posts that simply say never "invest" in coins and buy a S & P 500 ETF. People must adapt over time since what works now won't work in the future. Don't let anyone fool you that the S & P 500 is a truly diversified investment---in 2018 5 stocks (apple, Microsoft, google, amazon and facebook) made up 15% of the index. Whether or not the S & P 500 will be as profitable going forward---who knows. Other stock investments may do far better than the S & P 500. If you are a tennis player growing up in the 80s, they teach hitting a forehand completely different now. The golf swing is very different now (just watch a PGA player's foot work now as opposed to 15 years ago). So for instance, in my recommendations I would recommend all CAC coins---others may disagree but my thought on expensive coins is that CAC is an important factor to consider. Think outside the box and do a lot of homework before spending a lot of money on coins. Plus doing the homework is most the fun and then hopefully you get enjoyment and make money.
Warren Buffet is a pretty decent investor so I try to follow his methodology when considering coins:
“If you aren’t willing to own a stock for ten years, don’t even think about owning it for ten minutes.”
And while stocks pay dividends, coins pay dividends in enjoyment. I personally value this exactly equal to inflation so if I break even, I'm happy; if I turn a profit, I'm happier. And, sometimes it's necessary to take the emotion out of your price paid and take a loss to buy something better.
I’d recommend putting a set of CAC approved Seated Liberty Dollars in the XF-AU grade range. Minus the 70s of course...
I'd still go with my half dollar mentioned earlier, but Legend Auctions has a set of PanPac $50s. Do believe these would hold their value, at least.