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Trading widgets for "real" coins
ChrisH821
Posts: 6,328 ✭✭✭✭✭
So I've decided I have too many common BU Morgan and Peace Dollars. I plan to drive to a shop tomorrow and attempt a trade of quantity to quality. Anyone have success or horror stories about trying this sort of thing?
Collector, occasional seller
6
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Experiences can vary widely.
My worst was trying to trade five 1/10 Oz Gold Eagles for a 1/2 Oz. At that point I wanted one bigger gold coin and thought the dealer would trade straight up as it would be easier for him to sell the 1/10 Oz coins. He had other plans. He valued my 1/10 Oz Eagles at under spot and his (common date 1/2 Oz) at well over spot. I walked as I didn’t think it was right.
Those look like some beautiful coins. Maybe try selling them on the BST forum and use the money to buy some widgets.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Widgets can also be "real coins". Suggest selling them to other collectors first (the BST is free) and then buy what you want using the cash.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Unless you desire something the dealer has in his inventory, there is a chance that you will lose your coins at wholesale and buy his at retail. Sell them and hold the cash until you find something you really want for your collection.
Commems and Early Type
When I lived in an area with a local coin club, I would bring my widgets to sell at the meetings. Pooled that money and bought some key dates for my collection.
It might take longer, but you may be better off selling, then looking for the right quality piece (unless the dealer has the exact coin you want)
My LCS will absolutely do that. I brought a bunch of stuff up to sell/trade about a month ago. Found an Indian quarter eagle with CAC that was underpriced and too pretty to pass up!
ChrisH821,
Dealers will expect to make a profit from your 'trade'. Unless the dealer is a personal friend, your scenario is not likely to be realized. What you have are coins that most dealers already have boatloads of. What you want is better material, likely in much shorter supply.
One option, if you like/trust the dealer and he has things you want from time to time, is to sell him what you have on store credit (i.e., use your coins to establish a line of credit with the dealer) in exchange for a better deal on your coins. I did this years ago, and it worked well for both the dealer and me. I received about $24,000 in credit for modern junk and bullion silver coins, and I took my time whittling down that credit over the next 6-8 months.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I have been trading ASE’s for AGE’S AT 85-1. Dealer was happy. Easier for him to move silver. I thought it was fair. He will trade at the current ratio.
Nice pile of silver dollars! I would hold on to them and just buy your new coin outright.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
Those are very nice looking Morgans and Peace dollars... Should move easy on the BST.....Good luck...Cheers, RickO
Unless cash (or space) is in short supply, this is the best advice yet.
I have a similar 'hoard' of Morgan and Peace dollars, mostly acquired quite awhile ago when silver was low.
Silver has been >$40/oz twice in my lifetime, and it could happen again.
Those coins you posted could roughly double in value very quickly.
I highly doubt any "real" coin you purchase now will ever double in value, unless you find one heck of a deal. As most will attest the collector coin market is slowly spiraling downward and likely will continue to do so. At this point I'm grateful to sell at break even on my collector coins.
I would sell them and use the cash to buy the coins you want. In most cases cash speaks louder than trade material.
In order to make the transaction work completely for the dealer, he or she has to sell what you traded to hm or her for a profit. That complicates things, especially when "widgets" can be slower sellers than prime numismatic material.
Look at this way. You have to find the dealers who have what you want. They may or may not want what you want to trade. Cash speaks a universal language. Trade bait might not.
What you have in the picture are FAST sellers in a shop. It should be easy to do what you're thinking of.
The dealer should be happy.
You might regret it.
Some good insights here. The dealer does actually have two coins in inventory that I am very interested in. I figured it won't hurt to see what a trade offer would be, and if I don't want to do that then just buy with a check.
Collector, occasional seller
Your coins are silver so they will have some appeal. The fact they are not slabbed will hurt. Don't expect a very generous offer if you want a choice coin in trade. Widgets are widgets and dealers don't get excited about them. If you get a reasonable offer for a coin you really do want take the offer and don't look back.
I like this thread.
I look at your pic of silver $1 and I can't help to look at it like a beautiful lustrous savings account.
If it were a pile of culls or AU's it wouldn't bother me so much.
Maybe do a test run, with just a portion of your stash, to see how it goes?
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Can’t hurt to ask. You can always say no if you don’t like the offer.
THIS dealer was very excited to get nice raw dollars. They sold faster than any numismatic coin and at a non-hassle price.
Widgets are real coins, desirable and collectible. The thing about them is that they can always be readily acquired by anybody with sufficient green cash money. The range of widgets is very large.
No matter what you do, chances are you will simply be trading one set of widgets for a another smaller set of widgets.
My suggestion is to do it slowly over time, and build a relationship with the LCS. In initial transactions, my experience is that the LCS looks to make money on both sides of the transaction. If you only bring enough for a trade for one of the coins you like, or perhaps slightly less than the value of the coin ( then the dealer may do a fair trade with a slight cash top up from you)...After two or three repeat trades like this, my experience is the LCS usually looks to make money on only one side of the deal.
For example the 1/10th of an ounce gold coin trade, my LCS will let me trade 5 for a half ounce coin straight up, or if I wanted an ounce, charge me for a half ounce and a small premium on the 1/2 ounce difference. So building the relationship is key.
Interesting. I wonder if collector/stackers are the real market for this type of coin. I know there are a lot of such collectors out there.
Impressive material would not give away just to get theirs, paying thru nose.
You need an eBay store sell those. Would take some time.
Shop - he will probably take them at wholesale prob 20 pct behind cdn bid if not melt sell to you at retail which is bid plus about 30 pct.
No free ride in the biz.
Hold on to your silver it looks nice Who knows Silver could go up.
Furthermore dealers already have an oversupply of what your attempting trade and may have no incentive acquire them. This is also low margin material requiring bullion upward movement make any money. Many dealers buy or sell. Many feel Trades don’t make much money unless profit both ways.
BST is your best option. A dealer will never offer up a trade in your favor. Sell then use cash to make your "real coin" purchases.
ASE premium is around $2, AGE can easily be found at $20 over. The dealer is also "gaining" about $150 in premium off of you.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Actually the ASE’s I traded were not strictly ‘mint fresh’. Sort of ugly toned and banged up. Just bullion I had thrown together over the years.
Except HIS widgets are in demand, liquid, and traded daily with minimal hassle.
Hate to say this but I would fully expect to get lowballed at a local coin store. Selling this stuff to the ones around me result in a very poor deal. Condition is almost irrelevant since not stabbed. They will quote you one low price per coin.
I would bet you could sell those on the bst forum for more pretty quickly if you sell slightly above lcs offers. Win win for both parties.
Trouble with doing this with a dealer is that he will discount your (common) coins and up the price on his PQ or better date coins.
As opposed to coin club members and BST browsers who aren't looking for a bargain...
I have not been impressed with the BST prices. Especially for things like Morgans, the bid/ask spread is low and the widget is liquid. The cost of payment and shipping is probably more than the dealer vig.
BST is NOT always the right answer.
But they're typically not paying a lot of overhead to maintain a storefront.
This is just a portion of it
So I went up there and had a nice talk with the dealer, I actually only ended up doing a partial trade, roughly 50% of the cost of the coin I was after so I still have most of what's pictured above.
I could not be happier with it the purchase! GTG thread to follow
Collector, occasional seller
Ahh, all is well.
I like the nice talk with the dealer, partial trade and the outstanding coin you picked up is on my bucket list.
I also would have tried to be creative and do what it takes to go for that.
Congrats.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Will a dealer give you much more than spot for your coins? My guess is no unless you have some semi rare coins or way above average condition examples.
100 coins X ?
Silver dollars trade above spot. Few take the time to figure that out.
They DO have a daily spread readily available from many regular wholesalers.
Oh what's the use?
Yes unc Morgans get offered over spot. The ones I traded were the ones I was offered $35 or more for, which from a dealer I think was pretty OK.
Collector, occasional seller
The odds seem very good of you not getting a reasonable deal. I'd suggest you just hold onto that material or try to sell outright here.
BST them
Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
Would love to know and see what you're interested in
so what? they also aren't terribly motivated buyers. There are times at our local club where I can buy everything in the nightly auction because it is all selling sub-wholesale because no one wants miscellaneous silver or proof sets or whatever for anywhere near retail. A dealer will buy anything because they know where to move it. The local club member may only buy it for the same reason, in which case the local club members price is probably lower because he wants to flip it to a dealer.
Same with the BST. How many people on this message board want a tube of 1921 Morgans at RETAIL price? Answer, probably none. If they wanted to pay retail, they would just buy them retail. When the dealer bid/ask spread on a 1921 Morgan is $2 or less per coin, do you really think the BST price with shipping and PayPal (maybe) is going to be higher? The dealer would sell you the roll for $440 and buy it for $400. The BST buyer at best wants to pay maybe $420 total in which case you need to arrange payment and ship it and how much of that $20 difference is left? And how long will it take when you could be done in 15 minutes by stopping at the coin store?
Who said the seller should expect to get full retail on the BST, oh great constructor of straw men? The local B&M certainly isn't going to offer that. I'm not saying that the local B&M may not be the best option if unloading the material quickly is of high importance. But I believe my point is valid in general.
It was this:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1031923/1936-proof-walker-gtg#latest
Collector, occasional seller
Thanks for the link. Looks like a great coin and I'm glad you're happy with it!
It is not a straw man argument. It is a real scenario that I've seen dozens of times. Your (flawed) assumption is that there is a big enough bid/ask spread for someone to be able as a seller to do better on BST while the buyer on BST gets a bargain. This could happen, depending on the item. But usually it has to be an esoteric item. The bid/ask spread on a lot of widgets is quite small. As soon as your BST buyer is sub-retail with shipping/transaction costs thrown in, you are quite possibly netting less than you would from a dealer.
BST is NOT always the best place based on price not just time. BST has limited eyeballs as well as limited interest in certain market sectors.
I just bought 70 generic circ Morgan dollars for $20 each as a dealer. I can flip them to a market maker at $22 each. Will anyone on the BST pay me $22 each for the lot? I kind of doubt it. Would they pay $21 each? Maybe, but that's break even for someone trying to sell them on BST to avoid a dealer. The bid/ask spread is so small on that material, unless you have a motivated retail buyer on BST, you are not going to net what you would from a dealer.
I will/would/do certainly pay spot for morgans of the quality in original post 24/7/365. Regards!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Thanks for proving my point: spot for morgans is $14 [corrected]
Would you pay $420 for roll of 20 AU 1921 Morgans?
And consider gold eagles. My local dealer buys $25 back and sells $50 over. Again, split the difference and you need someone on BST to pay $12.50 over, then ship the coin via PayPal F&F and you still only net maybe $15 extra. Meanwhile the alleged BST buyer in this scenario can go to Apmex when they are selling eagles at $32 over and use a 2% CC to buy them at spot and get them for $12 less than on BST - and thats WITHOUT eBay bucks which is another 1 to 10%.
It's actually just over $14. If they are real nice I'd go $300 a roll.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Good point. I was using the 90% silver number.
Certainly a valid point. I do purchase the majority of my bullion via the big online retailers on eBay during bonus buck periods etc. It's getting harder with restrictions on the bullion category not being eligible. Apmex got smart and started listing the 1oz AGE under jewelry so you could get the $100 bonus but now for many sales tax has become an issue. Although I have no tax on coins/bullion/clothing I do get hit if listed in jewelry, collectables etc. These issues are making ebay less desirable but there are still many deals to be had.
In my experience the BST still yields the seller more than what would be offered at the LCS. It also offers the buyer a better deal then what they would typically find at a LCS. Obviously not everyone's situation is exact, some have better/more shops available. I am in a remote area, I have to travel 100 miles to find a decent shop, anything remotely local are just a bunch of rip off con artists. Selling on the BST also certainly blows away selling via ebay once you factor in all the fees.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
The Morgans pictured above are all pre-21 and unc. The dealer did a quick look through them and told me what he would pay for which ones( he even pulled out a 1900 O/O that I missed). Offer range was $20, which I thought was too low, to $45, which I thought was very fair. The bulk were $35 each which I think is every bit as good as I would do on BST here.
Peace Dollars on the other hand, at $18 each, an understandable offer since they sell at about $20-25 retail, I figured I will just keep them.
Collector, occasional seller
Great thread. I actually do trades quite often. I am surprised how many responses are saying you get a bad deal with trading. I normally come out ahead with dealers when I trade versus selling the coins outright. The morgan and peace dollars you have posted are nice and easy for any dealer to liquidate at good prices if they need to. The 2 dealers I work with the most would give very fair trades on that type of material.
Now if I showed up with proof and mint sets from the 80's and 90's that would be a different story. I have yet to find a dealer that gets excited when I bring these in except one or two who specialize in this type of material at larger shows.