Numismatic Tragedy: the 1850 Double Eagle Frankencoin

Wahoo554

Many of you probably already saw this video when it was released back in 2016, but below is the video of the 1850 NGC MS64 PL double eagle that was “improved” by its hapless owner. Hard to watch. Eesh...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mk0F_sQY-kM

bearcave

Never had seen that before, glad you shared. What some people will do thinking they can improve a coin.

johnny9434

Wow that's an unreal story. And an expensive lesson

CollectorBonEZ

Ouch!!

ifthevamzarockin

Classic example of "More money than brains"

privatecoin

Wow

Batman23

It looks so shiny and proof like... look at those mirrors. I wonder if he sent the label back to help adjust the top pops.

I wonder why he decided to ditch it after his "improvement". Must have thought he could have made some money on his doctoring skills. Any idea what it actually sold for?

Pedzola

Sad.

Bigbuck1975

$650,000 worth of palladium ingots at today’s Prices too, double ouch.

Jimnight

Unreal.

Kliao

😢😢

asheland

It’s not just the value lost but the great coin ruined. Tragic really.

BryceM

I guess it makes the other extant coins more valuable..... that’s the only upside I can see.

Walkerfan

I’ve seen this video before and it makes me cringe every time.

Besides the stupidity and the money lost, a national treasure has also been permanently destroyed.

MrEureka

@Walkerfan said:
I’ve seen this video before and it makes me cringe every time.

Besides the stupidity and the money lost, a national treasure has also been permanently destroyed.

And we will all share in subsidizing the six figure tax loss!

Walkerfan

@MrEureka said:

@Walkerfan said:
I’ve seen this video before and it makes me cringe every time.

Besides the stupidity and the money lost, a national treasure has also been permanently destroyed.

And we will all share in subsidizing the six figure tax loss!

Grrrr!!

ricko

That is a truly sad story that Julian told...And it lost the owner a small fortune....Doing something like that to a coin, after strong advice from experts, is just stupidity. Cheers, RickO

PerryHall

Maybe I missed it but what did it bring at auction?

taxmad

@MrEureka said:
And we will all share in subsidizing the six figure tax loss!

Probably not - my guess is he wasn't a dealer but a collector. He can use the loss to wipe out gains in future years, but collectors cannot take the $3000 loss each year that is available with with stocks. Even if he could, that is 33 years worth of write offs, which would net him $750ish per year...

ms70

@PerryHall said:
Maybe I missed it but what did it bring at auction?

I also want to know. We need to hear the end of the story.

Wahoo554

@ms70 said:

@PerryHall said:
Maybe I missed it but what did it bring at auction?

I also want to know. We need to hear the end of the story.

I’d be curious to know as well, but it isn’t mentioned in the video. It was probably purchased by “the dokter” and then sold on eBay for a small fortune as a “proof”.

Walkerfan

I think it fetched just under $10K IIRC.

Definitely somewhere between 5 and 10K.

lkeigwin

Why do you suppose NGC refused to slab it as genuine? Could the polishing damage have been so severe that NGC couldn't be sure it was even authentic?

Surely it would sell for more in a genuine holder than raw.
Lance.

yosclimber

ouch

ms70

@lkeigwin said:
Why do you suppose NGC refused to slab it as genuine? Could the polishing damage have been so severe that NGC couldn't be sure it was even authentic?

That's what I was wondering.

NSP

That video always makes me cry a little bit on the inside. As for the price, CoinWeek posted in the comments that it sold for $6,600 at auction.

OldIndianNutKase

Well, the Pop of 1850 double eagles just declined, at least officially. Perhaps the owner of the coin was also a car guy where restoration is not only expected but admired and rewarded. Coins that are over 150 years old are expected to have some crust and some color. But no dings and scratches.

I wonder if Julian spent way more time with this collector than he will ever realize for the value of his time.

OINK

mkman123

Makes me wanna slap the guy that did this!

BackroadJunkie

"So, was this a knowledgeable collector who bought this coin?"
"This was somebody who had $102,000."

You don't need to know more than that...

(Mmmmm.... Shiney... I'll bet if you peel off the outside, there's chocolate underneath.)

astrorat

@Wahoo554 said:

@ms70 said:

@PerryHall said:
Maybe I missed it but what did it bring at auction?

I also want to know. We need to hear the end of the story.

I’d be curious to know as well, but it isn’t mentioned in the video. It was probably purchased by “the dokter” and then sold on eBay for a small fortune as a “proof”.

During the demolition of a 200+ year old pottery store an enormous safe was found ...

amwldcoin

Around 10-15 years ago I had an older customer that was building an extensive world type set. He would tell me he would clean them up so he could see the design better. I preached and preached and preached to him not to do that. He was buying many better expensive coins as well.

I sold him a nice XF-AU Thailand Copper 4Att(Nice tough big coin) and pleaded with him not to mess with it. Around a year later I was talking with a guy that specialized in Thai stuff and he was willing to offer between 5 + 10 times what I sold the coin for. The next show I saw him at I mentioned it to him but he didn't want to sell. A couple years later he showed up at a show and was wanting to sell his collection.

All I could say was OUCH! He had whizzed and Polished the crap out of almost every coin he had. The Thai piece was hideous. I would wager he literally lost somewhere in the high 5 to 6 figures on his collection.

Kliao

All these stories are making me depressed :'(

lkenefic

How does one "improve" a 64PL?

...and... what was bid/ask on Palladium in 2004?!!!

NumisOxide

Jeez...looks like one of those twenty dollar tribute coins. Not sure I'd even pay melt for that thing.

WillieBoyd2

In the early 1960's my father had a small electric motor with an attached buffer.

I was able to polish some circulating coins then but didn't lose any money as I could still spend them.

WinLoseWin

@amwldcoin said:
Around 10-15 years ago I had an older customer that was building an extensive world type set. He would tell me he would clean them up so he could see the design better. I preached and preached and preached to him not to do that. He was buying many better expensive coins as well.

I sold him a nice XF-AU Thailand Copper 4Att(Nice tough big coin) and pleaded with him not to mess with it. Around a year later I was talking with a guy that specialized in Thai stuff and he was willing to offer between 5 + 10 times what I sold the coin for. The next show I saw him at I mentioned it to him but he didn't want to sell. A couple years later he showed up at a show and was wanting to sell his collection.

All I could say was OUCH! He had whizzed and Polished the crap out of almost every coin he had. The Thai piece was hideous. I would wager he literally lost somewhere in the high 5 to 6 figures on his collection.

Any idea of what they were thinking?

Was it that they had so much money they knew but did not care if the value was ruined or did they just refuse to believe what they were doing would actually ruin the value?

amwldcoin

Believe me I tried everything I could think of to try and stop him! When we 1st started doing business he was probably in his mid 70's. He was doing what he wanted to do to the coins to make them more enjoyable for him. I would assume money wasn't an issue for him. He had to be in his ealry 80's when he started selling. He took a small table at a small local show....which was when I saw 1st hand just how bad he had ruined so many coins.

@WinLoseWin said:

@amwldcoin said:
Around 10-15 years ago I had an older customer that was building an extensive world type set. He would tell me he would clean them up so he could see the design better. I preached and preached and preached to him not to do that. He was buying many better expensive coins as well.

I sold him a nice XF-AU Thailand Copper 4Att(Nice tough big coin) and pleaded with him not to mess with it. Around a year later I was talking with a guy that specialized in Thai stuff and he was willing to offer between 5 + 10 times what I sold the coin for. The next show I saw him at I mentioned it to him but he didn't want to sell. A couple years later he showed up at a show and was wanting to sell his collection.

All I could say was OUCH! He had whizzed and Polished the crap out of almost every coin he had. The Thai piece was hideous. I would wager he literally lost somewhere in the high 5 to 6 figures on his collection.

Any idea of what they were thinking?

Was it that they had so much money they knew but did not care if the value was ruined or did they just refuse to believe what they were doing would actually ruin the value?

BillDugan1959

Tragedy or Comedy? There is probably some kind of high-falutin' and esoteric Loss to the Hobby, or possible Loss to Posterity, but as to the financial Loss to the individual who intentionally mutilated their rare or scarce coins, who cares? It's humorous, frankly. Not personal to me in any way, shape or form.

We had a fellow who liked to put Large Cents in a rock tumbler. Some were nice before that, some were not. They were all reduced to dreck after. He died with the coins in his possession, but his poor widow was moderately surprised.

What you do with your coins is your business, but nobody but nobody is obliged to do any bailouts.

Hemispherical

The problem is someone will do this or buy a coin like this expecting $$$.

If they pass it on to heirs then there is no loss to be realized by the deceased.

But, if still alive, then there will be a lot of disappointment and hopefully nothing was bought as an expectation for retirement $.

PerryHall

I remember a thread a couple of years ago where a forum member had a SEGS graded proof 1850 double eagle that looks a lot like this coin. Anyone else remember that thread?

topstuf

SEGS graded proof 1950 double eagle

?????

PerryHall

@topstuf said:
SEGS graded proof 1950 double eagle

?????

Typo. Thanks. I fixed it.

topstuf

Good. Now I'm relieved.

Hydrant

Many, many moons ago, I bought a $1 gold piece just like that.

golden

Oh my gosh!

yosclimber

@PerryHall said:
I remember a thread a couple of years ago where a forum member had a SEGS graded proof 1850 double eagle that looks a lot like this coin. Anyone else remember that thread?

Yes, @northcoin has discussed his 1850 SEGS PR-62 several times.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/993882/1850-proof-double-eagle-inquiry (2018)
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/445168/coinfacts-1850-double-liberty-proof-photo-up-now (2005)


The obverse of his coin looks somewhat polished, but the reverse is not so bad.
It's not the same coin as the 1850 in the 2016 Julian Leidman video above.

golden

I remember back in the 1970's a rather odd fellow came to the local coin shop every now and then. He would buy an Unc. odd ball coin ( Two Cent , Three Cent, Half Dime, etc. ) and put them loose in his pocket. A few weeks later he would come back to the shop and sell it back to them. He always lost a lot each time.