DID NOT CROSS -- What would you do?
P0CKETCHANGE
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I submitted an NGC MS61 coin to our hosts in order to get it into a PCGS holder for my registry set. I specified a minimum grade for the cross of MS60, and it was returned as DID NOT CROSS. My assumption is that PCGS would have graded it AU [or details?]. I called PCGS and the rep did not see any notation or comments from the graders, but did say that three people evaluated the coin.
Obviously a disappointment, but it is what it is. I'm figuring out what to do next and would appreciate advice from the experienced folks on this forum. Some options:
1....Submit to NGC for evaluation in their guarantee program
2....Represent and sell the coin as-in in the NGC MS61 holder
3....Resubmit to PCGS with no minimum grade specified
I'm unlikely to resubmit to PCGS, so I'm torn between the first two options as I have no familiarity with the guarantee program outside of the terms listed in that link. Selling as-is is likely the best economic option I have, but representing the coin as MS61 strikes me as dishonest now that I have evidence that it is not.
What would you do?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Comments
That's not really true. NGC does not guarantee that PCGS will agree with their grades.
edited to add...
I submitted a coin to NGC that graded AU55. Try as I might, I couldn't see any wear on it so I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS, where it graded MS63. Which grade is right?
To me, option 2 would be a very easy call. Odds are that option 1 would be a waste of time and money and option 3 would likely result in an unnecessary financial hit.
You don’t have evidence that the coin isn’t an MS61 according to the company whose holder it resides in. And you always have the option of letting potential buyers know that the coin failed to cross.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Of course, and I was definitely prepared for losing a grade, but not from going from 61 to 58 (or worse). PCGS' findings won't factor into a potential NGC guarantee review, but the magnitude of the disagreement is making me think about it.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Thanks Mark. This is solid pragmatic advice.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
If you need a coin in PCGS plastic, it's almost always better to buy it in PCGS plastic. Anything else is often just a pathway to frustration and lost funds. Unless the coin is truly special, unique, or otherwise worthy of multiple grading gambles, you'll save yourself some headaches.
There's something about the last full paragraph in your comments that indicates a lack of understanding about what grades mean. This may come as a shock but coins don't actually have grades. They have diameters, compositions, mass, and a particular design. Grades are just an opinion about the coin's condition. NGC guys once said it was an MS61, and holdered it as such. Crack it out and send it back to them a dozen times and you certainly won't get the same result each time. If you send it to PCGS raw the guys (gals?) there might very well see the coin as an MS61, cleaned, MS62, AU58, or something else.
A TPG does take some risk in doing a crossover. If they crack the coin and discover something that wasn't evident (hidden by a prong, perhaps) they're on the hook for it. They therefore err on the side of being conservative, and they get to pocket the fee for their trouble. The successful crossover rate from NGC to PCGS used to be about 40%, but I haven't looked (or tried to do it) lately.
To actually answer your question - "What would you do?", I'd sell it, chalk it up to experience, and buy what I actually needed for my registry set.
HTH.
my choice would depend on value of coin/slab
I would consider cracking and submitting raw, unless it was at the upper end of my comfort level
Without seeing the coin, or even knowing the denomination for that matter, I would prefer an AU 55-58 from our host over the current holder.
What if you thought the coin deserved a grade of 60 or higher and/or the reduced difference in value would be $50 or more? If your answer would still be yes, why?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Be happy you didn’t remove it first.
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Would depend on the coin, value etc, Any chance to see a picture of the coin in question? Without knowing that easiest solution would probably be to sell the current coin and attempt to find same grade already in PCGS plastic. Once upon a time I started a couple of registry sets but gave up rather quickly due to issues exactly like this.
IMO, if a person knows how coins are commercially valued (perhaps a former grader who became a dealer or a dealer who became a TP grader and back, the coin is best sent raw - unless of course, it is one of those "special" coins that the TPGS's are in competition to place back into their holder again.
In your situation, keep the coin if you love it. Sell it if you don't. The coin is graded by one of the top services. Very often you will discover that by the commercial standards used today, there is no difference between coins in the AU-58 to MS-62 range of grades. Mostly it seems that the price of the coin in the grade matters more than the amount of friction.
BASIC COIN GRADING 101. Lesson one: We can find examples of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins in ALL TPGS SLABS. Unfortunately, in the past fifteen years, I needed to add counterfeits to that.
Lesson two: Now, let's stop talking about TPGS's and learn how to grade.
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I’d also vote #2. Nothing dishonest at all...you will simply be marketing an NGC-graded coin.
I’ve alway used the ‘cross at any’ grade option, on the 20-25 crossovers I’ve submitted, I’ve had a few come back up or down a point, but most cross the same. Haven’t been burned so far.
Dave
Thanks for weighing in. There were two other coins in this submission. One was in an old small ANACS holder which crossed at the same grade. The other was an NGC fatty which I lost a point on, which wasn't a big deal given the coin.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Somebody already mentioned it I believe. If it is a common coin just wait and get it in a PCGS holder at the grade you want.
If it is a special coin like a variety that is hard to find.....resubmit to PCGS with cross at any grade. Just because it DNC at 60 does not mean it will detail...….just that they (PCGS) thought it was below 60. Nothing wrong with a 58 or 55 on a coin you need and like.
I will pay you AU58 retail for your NGC 61 1884-S Morgan dollars. Send payment info in PM.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
If you're not happy with the coin...sell it. Easy as pie.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@1peter1223 ………. are you a Bible verse?
Sell it and buy what you want/like...do not put more money into it and save yourself the worry.... Cheers, RickO
My my, if you only trust one plastic brand and cannot grade yourself why in the world would you have bought the coin in the first place. The answer is obvious, sell it to someone that can enjoy the coin and go plastic shopping.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
My guess is that it is an '84-S, 83-S or 1901 Morgan Dollar.
this displays an interesting change in the OP's perception --- the coin was nice enough to be owned and crossed to PCGS, but since it failed it suddenly isn't nice enough to even own since you want to sell it. remember, nothing changed about the coin, it's the same.
I need to know less about the coin than I do about the OP, but I would suggest you perhaps slow down a little, look at as many encapsulated coins as possible and then be more selective in your purchases. also, my opinion of the MS61 grade is that it is not a good one to want for reasons you may now be beginning to understand.
good luck in the future and keep trying to learn as much as you can.
That’s another option:
4....crack and submit
Interesting discussion that I'm learning from. I'm not in the resubmit/crossover game. I'm one that buys what I want and like in the first place, irregardless of what TPG slab, or not, it's in.
Selling as-is is likely the best economic option I have, but representing the coin as MS61 strikes me as dishonest now that I have evidence that it is not.
What would I do? Based on your comment above I would never consider becoming a coin dealer. That thought/consideration would never enter their mind.
This is an astute observation, and I fully agree. This purchase was a bit impetuous and opportunistic, and was also before I really clarified my collecting objectives. Areas for improvement all around. Thanks for the input.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Hahaha!
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Having tried a cross or two, here is my advice. Sell the NGC coin and use the proceeds to find something you like in PCGS plastic.
Photos would have been educational for many.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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PCGS is telling you that they are NOT SURE its a problem-free mint state coin. That is all.
Pictures would sure help the discussion. Lots of missing pieces to this puzzle.
Are we talking about Jefferson Nickel or a New Orleans $20 here?
Anyway, its not dishonest to sell it as an MS61 unless you know otherwise (ie. somehow NGC missed something?). If you are sure of its mint state problem free qualities then crack it out and re-submit if you must have PCGS plastic.
I would sell it in it's current plastic and then use the proceeds to buy the PCGS coin that you want/need.
Just b/c PCGS won't cross it, that does not mean it isn't a 61.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
In the days of long, long ago before political correctness I would have said many things that I would have done. All in jest of course. And everyone would laugh. They would have understood the humor. Not so any more. ....... humor is dead......On second thought, I've got it!!!!!!!......claim VICTIM STATUS and resubmit.
When you try a cross with a minimum grade and it fails you're left with more questions than answers. Did PCGS feel it was an even lower grade? Did PCGS feel it shouldn't straight grade at all? What now?
If you love the coin and want or need it in PCGS plastic then cross with no minimum. If it succeeds and you think PCGS was too conservative (see @BryceM's post above) you can try a regrade which guarantees the coin won't grade lower. PCGS will crack and regrade the coin raw for the best and fairest examination.
If a cross-with-no-minimum fails you've learned PCGS feels it has a fatal flaw (e.g., improper cleaning).
If you aren't wild about the coin then there's lots of good advice here. Sell it and try to find one you like already in PCGS plastic.
Lance.
O.k.,.........KICK THE DOG.........JOKE, JOKE, JOKE!!!! JOKE alert! I don't even have a dog. JOKE!!!!! Old timer joke. HARMLESS! JOKE!............. Do I get to still hang around?
That's actually not a bad suggestion. LOL
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
This is bad advice and it doesn't make any sense. If you crack it out, it becomes a raw coin and CAC doesn't review raw coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Perry.....you make too much sense. Maybe it's time you hang it up. Reality is not the fashion.
He means to send it in raw to PCGS for better results and then send it in to CAC.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Sorry. I must have missed the part about resubmitting his coin to PCGS.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'd just sell it and buy the PCGS grade I want. I don't want to take that chance, especially in more expensive coins. And I wouldn't consider it dishonest if you sold it represented as an NGC coin in its NGC grade.
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I tried one coin for a cross N65 to P65 six times. On the sixth it crossed as it should have the first time. Finest know 8 Escudos from Philip V.
Latin American Collection
gradeflation and cacflation all in one. Congrats!
If it’s a higher priced coin and you no longer want it just sell it. I’d probably consign with Great Collections. If you try selling it on the BST you’ll be taking the worst of it. You have a low post count and most potential buyers would be aware of the coins history.
Enjoy your coin as is, otherwise sell it.
Starting it on the bay at 99c will take care if it. Worked for me lol.
Didn't read the responses too closely....
But first thing is to wait until you get the coin back. While the website will just tell you, "DNC" (did not cross), the coin will be returned with a label attached indicating WHY it DNC. Could be it, 1) didn't meet the grade criteria requested, or 2) what issue they believed it had, (cleaning, altered surfaces, and a dozen other possibilities).
Once you have an idea WHY they DNC'ed it, and after CLOSELY looking at the coin again, you probably have a better idea what other possibilities exist. In some cases, "try, try, again" might be appropriate....in other cases, accepting the verdict, and dealing with the pain and move on might be better...
(Still have 2 or 3 I haven't decided what to do with.
)
You need to post some pics here as a correct response surely will> @keets said:
now that is what it is in a nutshell, yup!
Hey Pocket - any reason you not posting the pics here??
Besides the obvious, it would help others understand the issues/comments discussed here above better. There is no wrong scan/example, you are new and its OK to err, so don't let that part of this all effect you
I've already received the coin back, and the label did not have any information indicating why it DNC. When I called PCGS they could not provide any additional information about it either. Is that unusual?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
No, I don’t think that’s unusual.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I completely understand why folks would ask for photos, given the extra context would be helpful to offering tailored advice. I intentionally decided to post without photos or even coin information as I wanted to get a range of thoughts on the topic without distraction and debate about the coin itself. It's important for me to learn how to handle and/or avoid a wide range of similar situations in the future, and I feel like I got a lot of good advice in this thread. @keets in particular hit the nail on the head, as you called out.
For those wondering, I have decided to sell the NGC coin outright and will be patiently seeking a new type example in a PCGS holder.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.