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Coin Authentication 101. What can you add?

Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

Over the years, I have found that there are several hard & fast rules/observations/requisites for coin authentication. I'm interested in learning of more. I'll start with an observation.

Observation: One side of a counterfeit coin is usually better executed than the other.

Comments

  • John2000John2000 Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019 4:02AM

    He is joking..... 🔮 .....(I hope).
    After visual inspection, the questionable coin should be weighed, measured, and checked for magnetism, and correct alloy/metal. (XRF)

    I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @John2000 said:
    He is joking..... 🔮 .....(I hope).
    After visual inspection, the questionable coin should be weighed, measured, and checked for correct alloy/metal. (XRF)

    At one time, this was true. It no longer is. :(

  • John2000John2000 Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 11:49AM

    I think those steps are still valid, as well as magnetism test. Although some of the better counterfeits may have similar alloys in them, not all are created equal.

    I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @John2000 said:
    I think those steps are still valid, as well as magnetism test. Although some of the better counterfeits may have similar alloys in them, not all are created equal.

    Sorry, you were correct as these tests are very helpful to many collectors/dealers.

    What justified my post is this: There are counterfeits that don't ever fool the experts; counterfeits that DO FOOL MOST of them; and counterfeits that fool ALL of them - at least for a while. These "state-of-the -art fakes are the ones that each test you mention will not detect. That is why this applies to today: "At one time, this was true. It no longer is."

    FYI: I'll weigh about two dozen coins a week, all foreign. I'll measure a coin once every two months, and I'll take a specific gravity of a coin about four times a month. These numbers can change slightly depending on what is submitted.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 12:33PM

    Understand mint mark positions. Even the tiniest deviation from any of the known mint mark positions for a mint issue makes a coin suspect of being a counterfeit.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • John2000John2000 Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 12:54PM

    Having a genuine sample, especially in similar condition, to compare to is extremely helpful. Every detail, even the "Denticles", and edge should match up. PCGS Coin Facts may help with this, as well as many other sources.

    I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @John2000 said:
    Having a genuine sample, especially in similar condition, to compare to is extremely helpful. very detail, even the "Denticles, and edge should match up.

    This is not true because of die wear and striking issues; however, you have expressed Rule #1!

    RULE #1: **In order to authenticate a coin, you must know what the genuine specimen should look like." Having a 100% genuine comparison piece from pre-19870 is a big "plus."

    RULE #2: (Appears in another discussion on CU.)

  • John2000John2000 Posts: 81 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @John2000 said:
    Having a genuine sample, especially in similar condition, to compare to is extremely helpful. very detail, even the "Denticles, and edge should match up.

    This is not true because of die wear and striking issues; however, you have expressed Rule #1!

    RULE #1: **In order to authenticate a coin, you must know what the genuine specimen should look like." Having a 100% genuine comparison piece from pre-19870 is a big "plus."

    RULE #2: (Appears in another discussion on CU.)

    Can you post your list of "Rules" for us ?

    I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈

  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oftentimes the third side of the coin will tell you a lot.

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,292 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Stating the obvious, but make sure it's a date/mm that was actually minted.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 2:37PM

    @John2000 said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @John2000 said:
    Having a genuine sample, especially in similar condition, to compare to is extremely helpful. very detail, even the "Denticles, and edge should match up.

    This is not true because of die wear and striking issues; however, you have expressed Rule #1!

    RULE #1: **In order to authenticate a coin, you must know what the genuine specimen should look like." Having a 100% genuine comparison piece from pre-19870 is a big "plus."

    RULE #2: (Appears in another discussion on CU.)

    Can you post your list of "Rules" for us ?

    NO!

    We are working on making a list of Uniserval Set Rules, and observations at this time. I'm posting this discussion solely for my selfish >:) benefit because I want to know what they are aside from the rules/observation I made up in 1973 to use at my first ANA Summer Seminar class.

    I'll tease another RULE...FLOUESCENT LIGHT is the most useful type of light for coin authentication. I formerly taught that it was the ONLY type of light for authentication." While it actually is for all extents and purposes; that is not 100% true. For a few applications, a variable intensity, halogen pipe light is needed with very high powers of magnification.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BustDMs said:
    Oftentimes the third side of the coin will tell you a lot.

    That's a good one!

    RULE: Don't forget the coin's "third side."

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not sure if it can be a rule, but if it’s too good to be true, double/triple/etc. check.

    Reason the first authenticators could be wrong.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 5:53PM

    @Hemispherical said:
    Not sure if it can be a rule, but if it’s too good to be true, double/triple/etc. check.

    Reason the first authenticators could be wrong.

    Yes,

    OBSERVATION: Many counterfeits look too-good-to-be-true!

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,477 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @John2000 said:
    He is joking..... 🔮 .....(I hope).
    After visual inspection, the questionable coin should be weighed, measured, and checked for correct alloy/metal. (XRF)

    At one time, this was true. It no longer is. :(

    Don't confuse necessary and sufficient conditions. Example, if a coin is chocolate, it is not a 1927-S Saint. If a coin is not chocolate, it only may be genuine.

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why give counterfeiters advice in threads like these on what they can improve on?

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Learn to do a specific gravity test (for those not in a coin shop and without access to an XRF, etc).
    bob :)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2vA1qO2fA

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • emeraldATVemeraldATV Posts: 3,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Question: Is it a practice for them to use other coins as in
    testing the strike, or other factors ?

  • AercusAercus Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭

    These only apply to lower tier fakes but some easy things to spot:

    Raised areas such as bubbles, etc
    Fine details missing (like shield stripes mushed together) but not much overall wear. Don't confuse with weak strike!
    Along the same line, note any subtle difference in design, such as hair curls different, liberty font wrong, etc
    Date position and font. Learn what the genuine number style is for that coin
    Denticles! Many fakes will have denticles that are not consistent with a genuine coin.

    My best advice is; know your series! Liberty seated fakes are easy for me to spot unless they're the really high quality ones. State at a design enough and any inconsistency will jump out.

    Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale

  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,159 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Always have a strong drink available for that nightmare time you find out your coin is a counterfeit

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you look at a coin and it does 'not look right'... start working your way through the list of checks noted previously in this thread.... Or, just move on and buy a slabbed coin. ;) Cheers, RickO

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If using handheld analytical equipment such as an XRF or Sigma resistivity unit, have a basic understanding of the scientific principles behind their operation and know their limitations, i.e., Measurement depth, etc

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • Jinx86Jinx86 Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You never know where you will spot a fake, be ever vigilant. Just a few days ago on a dealer only network someone posted some CC Morgan's. Plain as day counterfeit 1885, there was no shaming, just informing.

  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,672 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If in doubt, post a photo. There will be no shortage of opinions, then choose the one you like the most.

    It won't make any difference as far as authentication goes, but might get to to the cherished "100" post thread!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @John2000 said:
    He is joking..... 🔮 .....(I hope).
    After visual inspection, the questionable coin should be weighed, measured, and checked for correct alloy/metal. (XRF)

    At one time, this was true. It no longer is. :(

    Don't confuse necessary and sufficient conditions. Example, if a coin is chocolate, it is not a 1927-S Saint. If a coin is not chocolate, it only may be genuine.

    Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. It's probably my fault. :(

    @Nysoto said:
    Why give counterfeiters advice in threads like these on what they can improve on?

    Decades ago this was very important. Whenever ANACS discovered a new fake, one group of ANA officials did not want any info given out to dealers and collectors so the counterfeiters would not improve their product. The leader of this group practiced what he preached as every column he wrote in the Numismatist was nothing except "fluff." The best part of his writing was to warn folks of the increasing problem of counterfeits that led up to the establishment of a Certification Service. You both are correct about "things" getting back to the counterfeiters so they can improve their products. A funny story I like to tell my class is that one year at the Summer Seminar. I gave the class a diagnostic of a "Newly discovered" counterfeit $10 Indian. Within two months, the same counterfeits showed up for authentication with that defect corrected! However. today, they don't need our help. Everything that is written in this thread has been out in the public domain for over forty years!

    @ricko said:
    If you look at a coin and it does 'not look right'... start working your way through the list of checks noted previously in this thread.... Or, just move on and buy a slabbed coin. ;) Cheers, RickO

    This is called a "Gut Reaction." It is developed over time by studying genuine coins.

  • John2000John2000 Posts: 81 ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019 6:27AM

    This thread link seems appropriate here, and is probably what influenced Insider2 to create this thread.
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1026224/opinions-wanted-on-1853-1-gold-coin/p1

    I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,955 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another thing is know your mintmark styles. Awhile back someone posted an image here of a 1916-D dime that had a 'D' that was not consistent with the style used by the Denver mint for 1916 dimes produced there.

    Know your mintmark positions and styles in the series that interest you.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    However. today, they don't need our help. Everything that is written in this thread has been out in the public domain for over forty years!

    Since this thread is "authentication 101" you are probably right, basic stuff everyone knows. That being said, I hope that some who have advanced knowledge of what the counterfeiters do not know will hold back this information.

    As you said in another thread the counterfeiters are getting better. I have no doubt they check the internet for "feedback" on their work. I was involved with attributing/authenticating the last three new Overton half dollar discoveries, there are some points I will not share on the internet.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019 8:58AM

    @John2000 said:
    This thread link seems appropriate here, and is probably what influenced Insider2 to create it. That, and the "FACT" that he likes to show off. 😈
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1026224/opinions-wanted-on-1853-1-gold-coin/p1

    Your VERY >:) SNARKYdefinition of "showing-off" is far different than mine. I have been told before about throwing pearls.... o:) If there were a way to hide any of my future posts from you, I would. :p

    In case anyone on CU has low English comprehension, I clearly posted the reason I started this discussion:

    I'm posting this discussion solely for my selfish >:) benefit because I want to know what they are ..."

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019 9:06AM

    I rubbed the raw Saint once before and it left an iron smell on my fingertips ...... of course I know not to handle any coin without wearing gloves but this one is a training coin :#

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nysoto said:

    However. today, they don't need our help. Everything that is written in this thread has been out in the public domain for over forty years!

    Since this thread is "authentication 101" you are probably right, basic stuff everyone knows. That being said, I hope that some who have advanced knowledge of what the counterfeiters do not know will hold back this information.

    As you said in another thread the counterfeiters are getting better. I have no doubt they check the internet for "feedback" on their work. I was involved with attributing/authenticating the last three new Overton half dollar discoveries, there are some points I will not share on the internet.

    Trust me, information to detect the latest group of State-of-the-Art fakes is not being shared. Only some of the transferred defects so collectors/dealers can avoid them. IMHO, a group associated with Jack Young is doing the best work decting fakes at this time. They are assisting the TPGS's.

    Sooner or later the counterfeiters will move into faking Capped Bust coinage. I'm unaware of any good fakes in this series.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound said:
    I rubbed the raw Saint once before and it left an iron smell on my fingertips ...... of course I know not to handle any coin without wearing gloves but this one is a training coin :#

    Coin doctors put all kind of chemicals on coins. Be careful.

  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you bite down on a gold coin you can tell if it’s real or fake. Works well on Olympic medals as well.

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • John2000John2000 Posts: 81 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @John2000 said:
    This thread link seems appropriate here, and is probably what influenced Insider2 to create it. That, and the "FACT" that he likes to show off. 😈
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1026224/opinions-wanted-on-1853-1-gold-coin/p1

    Your VERY >:) SNARKYdefinition of "showing-off" is far different than mine. I have been told before about throwing pearls.... o:) If there were a way to hide any of my future posts from you, I would. :p

    In case anyone on CU has low English comprehension, I clearly posted the reason I started this discussion:

    I'm posting this discussion solely for my selfish >:) benefit because I want to know what they are ..."

    That was a joke, hence the smiley." You" do understand the use of smileys right ???
    Your OP did not mention that this thread was for your own selfish reasons.
    I'll not reply further to simply stroke your EGO .

    I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019 9:39AM

    Very SNARKY posts directed at me personally :'( cannot be absolved with a :). You made it very clear how you feel about my posts and my intentions being here on CU.

    It is in my best interests to sign out for a few hours. :(

  • Always expect characters (letters / numbers) to be at least as thick as those on the earliest known die state, and never thinner.

    If you see characters / stars that are noticeably thicker than normal, they should be accompanied by noticeable flow lines in the fields and / or between the legend / stars and the rim.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound ... I am sure you realize that Olympic gold medals are not solid gold... just checking... ;) Cheers, RickO

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019 8:25PM

    @ricko said:
    @Paradisefound ... I am sure you realize that Olympic gold medals are not solid gold... just checking... ;) Cheers, RickO

    Well, you just ruined my day!

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @ricko said:
    @Paradisefound ... I am sure you realize that Olympic gold medals are not solid gold... just checking... ;) Cheers, RickO

    Well, you just ruined my day!

    I think @3stars mentioned the Olympic medals.

  • santinidollarsantinidollar Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t think this has been mentioned: Don’t assume a coin is genuine simply because it is in a slab — or what appears at first glance to be a genuine slab. The little darlings are counterfeiting those, too.

  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @John2000 said:

    After visual inspection, the questionable coin should be weighed, measured, and checked for correct alloy/metal. (XRF)

    This.

    I got a fake 1875 CC Trade $ that looked XF wear wise when I was in Vietnam. It fooled most dealers. I knew it was a fake because I got in in Vietnam at a shop.

    You would put a legit 1875 CC Trade in XF alongside it and couldn't tell the difference. Most dealers thought it was real. The weight was correct. The giveaway was the metal content. The counterfitter was too cheap to use .900 silver.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A high quality alteration of a genuine coin can be harder to spot than most counterfeits.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @santinidollar said:
    I don’t think this has been mentioned: Don’t assume a coin is genuine simply because it is in a slab — or what appears at first glance to be a genuine slab. The little darlings are counterfeiting those, too.

    I'm sure there are also counterfeit coins in genuine slabs. Remember those micro O Morgan dollars?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019 6:43AM

    I am curious how many in this forum (excluding the OP) would suspect any of these as counterfeits when viewed in hand. The “prongs” have been removed as a courtesy as I do in all the articles but all three are currently in genuine top tier TPG holders (all three straight graded).



    We are currently evaluating XRF at different intensities and depth of the planchets in an effort to fingerprint the “coins” for differences in elements relative to genuine examples of the period. To be statistically relevant we need to measure a large enough sample size of the suspect ones versus a relevant sample of known genuine examples.

    So far we are seeing very interesting results and hopefully the latest group I sent to the Lab will support sound conclusions. I understand this approach actually help “authenticate” as fake some of the copper varieties of the Bay Area counterfeits in the past.

    I do agree with others knowledge of the genuine coins and varieties for comparison has been very helpful in evaluating good from bad in these latest “super fakes”…

    Best, Jack.

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