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Opinions wanted on 1853 $1 Gold coin
RedstoneCoins
Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
There is something special about this coin. I'll tell the whole story when someone tells me what they think about the coin.
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RedstoneCoins
Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
RedstoneCoins
Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
Comments
Polished
I love old gold, but that baby looks like it was polished severely with a Dremel Tool or something. I suggest never buying raw gold coins unless at melt value.
Shame on both of you.
Neither of you caught what I was hoping would be caught immediately.
Keep looking. Open the full images by clicking them.
Ex jewelry from a relative?
It may be ex-jewelry, but that's not the most important thing about this coin.
Keep looking.
Looks like it is still in a bezel.
No.
Coin is loose and raw, ungraded.
No one has figured out what is so special about this coin.
Keep looking!
Those stars look pretty wonky, is it real?
Somebody around here is catching onto something. . . .
Keep looking. Anything else look a bit 'funky' about the coin to you? On either side.
Dentils..
Yeah. They look very wrong.
Congratulations! That's one of those extremely rare 1853-D gold dollars w/partial "D" polished off. Thanks for posting this variety.
PS Your coin is 100% genuine.
I see some raised bumps or pimples. Looks counterfeit in addition to being polished.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Now we're getting specific.
Anyone else see anything off about the coin?
I want to give everyone a chance to identify all of the problems first before I say what I caught.
Open the full photos! They're high-resolution.
Yes...there is/was a chop mark on or over the ear. Cheers, RickO
Missing details in wreath due to die polishing. (And on some stars on obverse).
The coin is genuine. The raised curved die polish on the face is on one of the genuine dies. This "stuff" about raised bumps is one of the things some dealers thought indicated a coin was a counterfeit - fifty years ago. LOL.
IMO, the sooner the OP tells us what's special about this damaged coin the better!
PS There's plenty of "chops" on this coin but none were made in China. If it didn't come from Grandma, send it to the refiner.
Unless it's a rare die variety, (which, honestly, only a handful of people could possibly note by eye alone), I don't see anything all that interesting.
(Replying so I don't forget to check back).
Looks like someone changed the Liberty to incuse.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
All have an incuse LIBERTY.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Thanks Perry. The more mistakes I make the more I learn. Obviously I don't have any gold dollars. The ribbons, if that is what they are on the reverse, sure are polished away in spots but not others. Waiting to hear what someone was thinking to go through all the trouble.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
I think this coin is 'made' from two separate coins.
Does it open up?
Worlds smallest opium dollar?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Die clash on right 4/5:00 on obverse ? I tried to match it up but ???
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Maybe an LSD dollar?
I'm not sure what I'm looking at; on hi mag the surfaces look really strange, almost bubbled like it's plated?? and the area where jaw meets neck is very weird looking, I don't know what to make of it.
A circulated proof with DDD etc...
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Double PROFILE? Like in the neck area?
Fake
All I see is a really really harshly cleaned/polished junk dollar.
So, when are we going to find out why this coin is so special?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
.
It's a fake.
Only a few of you caught that.
Take a look at the stars (incorrect design/thickness - one star is only partially absent!), the wreath on the reverse, incorrect denticles, the bubbles near the edge, and the "floating berries" on the reverse (caused by absent stem details on the wreath).
Definitely a fake. Most likely a transfer-die fake, or spark erosion, given the accuracy of the details. There was definitely a "host" coin involved at some point in making the general details apparent.
Thanks everyone for looking. I'm shocked only a few really caught on though.
What are your opinions on this MS69 graded one? Lots of very weak areas like the harshly cleaned one above. If you take a weak strike like that plus take some wear and some very harsh scrubbing, I can see it looking like your example above.
I don't see a link in your message.
Posted before I added the picture, fixed. Whoops!
I see the photo has been added.
Honestly, that seems to be a bit of a stretch. It requires several unlikely events to occur:
1) A weak strike, resulting in factory-origination absent or light details (such as the partially-missing wreath bow or berry stems).
2) No weak strike could result in the shape of the stars to be missing the geometrical pattern at the epicenter of the design (the flanged arrow-like appearance on each star leg, which would be apparent on a real coin, is somehow linearized on the fake, which neither a weak strike nor polishing could accomplish on a real coin).
3) The denticles are warped on the fake. That could not happen on a real coin without an alternate obverse die being used to strike the coin, or alternatively a form of circular polishing (to shape the denticles in the curvature of rotation) which would require a motion so intense that it likely would not even leave ANY details on the coin at all - not even the devices (Liberty's face).
4) The bubbles on the fake one are of a large quantity, and particular shape and size, mostly being peppered along the circumference, which is where the intersection of the concave/convex surface on a counterfeit transfer plate meet with a host coin, which increases the occurrence of bubbles during the transfer process given imperfections in the mating of the surfaces. These bubbles on the fake are too voluminous and patternistic, consistent with that of a counterfeit, to be resultant from authentic mint origination.
5) The rim thickness is wildly inconsistent, though that is hard to see in the photos.
6) The reeding is suspiciously lacking in depth and detail, when viewed under a microscope (as I have at 20x to 45x magnification). Very oddly shaped.
7) If we were to temporarily put aside considerations of a weak strike, and assumed the coin had been struck with equivalent force and die details of an average $1 piece, then the "floating berry" effect and absent wreath bow would not be apparent. The only way to impose that appearance on an authentic coin would be to somehow file them away, as no amount of polishing could ever reach inside the crevices of these devices. We are talking microns of space, here.
8) Although not mentioned before, because it is marginally outside of my numismatic expertise (though not for a professional NGC or PCGS grader/authenticator), there are multiple depressions on the coin consistent with a transfer-die counterfeit. Depressions are scratches or marks from circulation which were on the original, host coin that were transferred to the fake during the counterfeiting process, and often times (depending on the depth, length, and severity of the original scratch), become softened in appearance on the fake coin, which can result in a mark on the coin with no microscopic scrape lines (which WOULD be present on a real coin, if the damage was caused post-mintage). This coin has depressions which appear to be missing those microscopic scrape lines. Though I would need an expert with better equipment and expertise than myself to confirm that.
There are just too many factors converging here to say it's real. It's not. It's a fake coin.
This looks like the same dies. Look at the die cracks by the obverse stars and the raised dots on the back. Yours has soo much surface alteration & damage and yet these markers can still be seen.
Shame on you for not doing more homework
Welcome to the forum!
You are doing a great job of getting your feet wet & good photos too!
1) Die characteristics are not a guarantee that a coin is real, only that an authentic host coin was used in the transfer process to a counterfeit die.
2) I don't see any raised dots on the coin photo you sent.
3) Stars on my coin are different from the one in your photo.
4) Denticles are also very different, particularly on the right side of the obverse of my coin.
5) Yours has a weakly struck wreath bow on the reverse, but the facets of it are still visible. Mine is completely obliterated on the right side of the bow. Not consistent.
6) The photo of your coin is not high resolution enough to determine if it has "floating berries" or not. Though from what little I can see, it does seem to have stems attached to most of the berries, even if lightly struck.
7) Rim thickness on my coin, though not completely visible in the photos, is not consistent as a real one would be.
8) The depressions throughout my coin are highly suspicious and not consistent with scuffs created post-mintage via circulation. These depressions appear to be transferred from the imperfections of a host coin.
9) The reeding on my coin (which is not visible in the photos) is not consistent with a real coin, when viewed under microscopic magnification.
10) Granularity surrounding the devices, particularly the wreath, is not consistent with strike lines as found on an authentic coin. It may be the result of spark-erosion counterfeit imperfections.
There are way too many red flags to say it's real. It's fake.
Why are you sure it's real? Just because it's polished? Counterfeiters often polish coins to grind away imperfections on fakes, and it also makes it harder to directly look at the coin with your bare eye since it's so shiny.
Thanks for welcoming me.
With as much metal that has been moved across the surface of your coin any number of strange things could appear. Your coin is not just polished it looks like it might have been smoothed first then harshly polished.
That doesn't account for every problem with the coin that's observable.
Polishing and smoothing don't generate granularity or depressions. Counterfeits do. And those are just two serious issues among many which polishing and smoothing alone could not cause.
It's a fake.
Many different effects can happen from polishing. Depending on what you polish it with & the speed you polish it at will produce many different effects. See this thread.... I know it's not what you are seeing on your coin but you can see the texture polishing can produce.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1025786/what-caused-this-strange-texture-on-a-coin-answered#latest
Heavy polishing like seen on your coin will move metal & remove metal and details.
The obverse cracks would not have transferred well on such a small coin and if they did manage to slightly transfer they would be gone from the harsh polishing.
Welcome to the forum. You have made a very strong case that the coin is a counterfeit. Please let us know how long you have been authenticating coins. You certainly are demonstrating how much you know about counterfeit gold coins in this discussion.
@ifthevamzarockin, Thanks for providing a genuine coin in the same die state as a comparison piece.
@Insider2 "Thanks for providing a genuine coin in the same die state as a comparison piece."
Awe shucks.... it was nothin'.... I was kinda shamed into it.
Why don't all just agree that it belongs in the melt pot.
DDR on America, just like the ms69 example
@JBK Agree.
I was the first to call this coin a fake due to the raised blobs of metal. These raised blobs of metal are caused by trapped air bubbles so this coin was either cast or struck from cast dies. These blobs of metal wouldn't be created by smoothing or polishing this coin. There are cases of genuine coins with raised blobs of metal that were struck from rusted dies where the dies weren't stored properly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.