Home U.S. Coin Forum

D. Skidmore's Hotel Seneca Falls, NY Civil War Token PCGS MS65RB

DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 18, 2019 4:53PM in U.S. Coin Forum

D. Skidmore's Hotel Seneca Falls, NY F-845A-1a Copper PCGS MS65RB

Here is one of the most famous storecards issued during the American Civil War by NY diesinker, William H. Bridgens. It features an eagle with a cigar in its beak and "Good For One" above it.
D. Skidmore operated a hotel in Seneca Falls, NY on Fall St. It is thought that this token would be presented in exchange for a cigar in the parlor room.
"H. Frantz" succeeded Skidmore at 95 Fall St and apparently had these leftover tokens stamped with his name to reflect the change in ownership. Back in the good old days, this token must've been slid over the counter several times, as it is worn down to the VF grade.
D. Skidmore Seneca Falls/ "H. Frantz" counterstamp PCGS VF35

Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."

Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is it actually a Civil War Token or is it a merchant's token from before or after the Civil War?

    All glory is fleeting.
  • thebeavthebeav Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice token......
    It's said that Seneca Falls was the model for the town in "It's a Wonderful Life".....

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    Is it actually a Civil War Token or is it a merchant's token from before or after the Civil War?

    It is a Civil War token, cataloged as NY F-845A-1a. This one is the highest graded.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful token. Thanks for providing the historical context, Dennis!

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,033 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Half a second I thought it said SkidMark

  • CWT1863CWT1863 Posts: 316 ✭✭✭✭

    Very nice. That is an outstanding example! I didn't even know about the Frantz counterstamp. So cool.

    ANA-LM, CWTS-LM, NBS, TAMS, ANS

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    Is it actually a Civil War Token or is it a merchant's token from before or after the Civil War?

    It was all three according to Mr. Rulau in the first edition of his catalog where it was listed in the Merchant Token, Civil War Token and Trade Token sections. He expressed much displeasure when this commission was pointed out to him but he finally did remove all but the CWT listing in later editions.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Really cool. I need one

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:

    @291fifth said:
    Is it actually a Civil War Token or is it a merchant's token from before or after the Civil War?

    It was all three according to Mr. Rulau in the first edition of his catalog where it was listed in the Merchant Token, Civil War Token and Trade Token sections. He expressed much displeasure when this commission was pointed out to him but he finally did remove all but the CWT listing in later editions.

    What evidence exists regarding its dating? Is this dating based on fact or just that making a Civil War Token makes it more valuable in the marketplace. Don't just blindly trust what you read in catalogs.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:

    What evidence exists regarding its dating? Is this dating based on fact or just that making a Civil War Token makes it more valuable in the marketplace. Don't just blindly trust what you read in catalogs.

    The directory I posted in the beginning of this thread is dated March 1862. This is a well known civil war token.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is a very nice CWT.....I wonder if in lieu of a cigar, one could get a libation or two? ;) Not being a smoker, I would prefer a nice Cabernet....Cheers, RickO

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:

    @291fifth said:

    What evidence exists regarding its dating? Is this dating based on fact or just that making a Civil War Token makes it more valuable in the marketplace. Don't just blindly trust what you read in catalogs.

    The directory I posted in the beginning of this thread is dated March 1862. This is a well known civil war token.

    Do you know what year the owner changed to the countermarked version?

    All glory is fleeting.
  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:

    @DCW said:

    @291fifth said:

    What evidence exists regarding its dating? Is this dating based on fact or just that making a Civil War Token makes it more valuable in the marketplace. Don't just blindly trust what you read in catalogs.

    The directory I posted in the beginning of this thread is dated March 1862. This is a well known civil war token.

    Do you know what year the owner changed to the countermarked version?

    The change in ownership is reported as 1874. A Civil War era merchant (directory evidence) ordered tokens in the most common Civil War size (19mm) from a major Civil War die sinker (Bridgens) in his own state (NY). There are no reported auction records of the piece in 1860 or earlier as there are for many if not most pre-Civil War tokens, odd because Bridgens was also a part time coin dealer and was probably aware that tokens were avidly sought . It is always possible (but unlikely) that the Skidmore token was struck after the Civil War seeing that Bridgens advertised his die sinking tools for sale in 1863 and moved out of the city part time in 1864, seemingly winding down his business. His firm remained in business after the War but there is little signed post-war output, especially in a small cent size.

    You seem to imply that the token is listed as a CWT for monetary purposes only; do you have evidence to the contrary? In what period would you list the piece? The CWTS is always interested in correcting current listings and has removed listings and merchants when facts confirm the error (see the list of non-contemporary tokens that were once listed, then removed). Let us know what you have.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    nice cwt, theres nothing wrong with the grade either. best wishes all

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:

    @291fifth said:

    @DCW said:

    @291fifth said:

    What evidence exists regarding its dating? Is this dating based on fact or just that making a Civil War Token makes it more valuable in the marketplace. Don't just blindly trust what you read in catalogs.

    The directory I posted in the beginning of this thread is dated March 1862. This is a well known civil war token.

    Do you know what year the owner changed to the countermarked version?

    The change in ownership is reported as 1874. A Civil War era merchant (directory evidence) ordered tokens in the most common Civil War size (19mm) from a major Civil War die sinker (Bridgens) in his own state (NY). There are no reported auction records of the piece in 1860 or earlier as there are for many if not most pre-Civil War tokens, odd because Bridgens was also a part time coin dealer and was probably aware that tokens were avidly sought . It is always possible (but unlikely) that the Skidmore token was struck after the Civil War seeing that Bridgens advertised his die sinking tools for sale in 1863 and moved out of the city part time in 1864, seemingly winding down his business. His firm remained in business after the War but there is little signed post-war output, especially in a small cent size.

    You seem to imply that the token is listed as a CWT for monetary purposes only; do you have evidence to the contrary? In what period would you list the piece? The CWTS is always interested in correcting current listings and has removed listings and merchants when facts confirm the error (see the list of non-contemporary tokens that were once listed, then removed). Let us know what you have.

    My point is simple: You can't just blindly rely on what has been written previously, often with no documentary evidence. This is a problem in many hobbies that deal with historical subject matter. Writers often pick up previously stated "facts" without checking the source. The source many times was a writer whose "research", if any, was superficial.

    My own suspicion is that this token actually dates from after the Civil War and is a merchant "Good For". (I wonder how much a cigar cost during the 1860s-1870s?)

    Should one believe everything they read on the internet? Should one believe everything they read in collectible catalogs?

    All glory is fleeting.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a paragraph I wrote about this piece for my club newsletter:

    Skidmore Hotel in Seneca Falls, New York issued one of the more attractive and interesting “good for” Civil War tokens. This piece, which featured an eagle with a cigar in its beak, was redeemable for a stogie at the gentlemen’s club at the hotel. A contemporary advertisement for the hotel stated that the smoking room featured pool tables and the latest editions of the local newspapers for the traveling man’s diversion and pleasure.

    Here is another Bridgens die where he might have used the same punch to enter the eagle on the die face. The strike here is blunt, but the are a lot of similarities, except that Bridgens added the cigar to the eagle's beak.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:

    @tokenpro said:

    @291fifth said:

    My point is simple: You can't just blindly rely on what has been written previously, often with no documentary evidence. This is a problem in many hobbies that deal with historical subject matter. Writers often pick up previously stated "facts" without checking the source. The source many times was a writer whose "research", if any, was superficial.

    My own suspicion is that this token actually dates from after the Civil War and is a merchant "Good For". (I wonder how much a cigar cost during the 1860s-1870s?)

    Should one believe everything they read on the internet? Should one believe everything they read in collectible catalogs?

    Do you know much about tokens? This piece fits the CWT criteria in nearly every way: 19mm, copper, identified diesinker from the Civil War. The business is even advertised in the wartime directories exactly as struck on the token, which I've posted above.

    You really think we're all "blindly" relying on online conjecture? This piece has been collected and written about by numismatists for the better part of its existence. It also belonged to a guy named Q. David Bowers, you may have heard of him? He had no problem accepting it as part of the CWT series, and neither do I.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The only point that I can add is that most of the Skidmore tokens that I have seen have been in high grade. Perhaps they were used mostly in the restaurant and smoking room and never saw much use in general circulation. After all it was worth more exchanged as a cigar that it would have been been if had been used as a cent substitute.

    This is only a theory based upon observations.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My opinion on this piece does not agree with others opinions including those of well known "experts". It very well could have been issued during the Civil War but it could have also been issued later, prior to the change of owners.

    (During the early 1980's I had a collection of about 300 Civil War Tokens, one of many things I collected over the years.)

    All glory is fleeting.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019 12:10PM

    If the Skidmore token was issued during the Civil War, it’s a Civil War token PERIOD. It’s obvious that the Indiana Primitive Civil War tokens were used after 1864, which was the last year the CWTs were officially issued. Many of them are worn down to VF condition which indicates that they circulated for several years. They were probably used after the war, but they are still CWTs.

    Government laws that ended the circulation of the tokens exclude anything dated 1865 and later.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • CWT1863CWT1863 Posts: 316 ✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    My opinion on this piece does not agree with others opinions including those of well known "experts". It very well could have been issued during the Civil War but it could have also been issued later, prior to the change of owners.

    (During the early 1980's I had a collection of about 300 Civil War Tokens, one of many things I collected over the years.)

    I would recommend learning a bit more about tokens before you start questioning whether a token is a CWT or not. The are plenty of good books on the topic along with the Civil War Token Journal. You have not mentioned any concrete information and as others have shown there is ample evidence to show that it is a Civil War token. Also, as DCW mentioned Q. David Bowers seems to have agreed it should belong. However, if you have any evidence to show that it is not a Civil War token, then I would be happy to pass it on to John Ostendorf who was in charge of the 3rd edition of the store card book.

    ANA-LM, CWTS-LM, NBS, TAMS, ANS

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CWT1863 said:

    @291fifth said:
    My opinion on this piece does not agree with others opinions including those of well known "experts". It very well could have been issued during the Civil War but it could have also been issued later, prior to the change of owners.

    (During the early 1980's I had a collection of about 300 Civil War Tokens, one of many things I collected over the years.)

    I would recommend learning a bit more about tokens before you start questioning whether a token is a CWT or not. The are plenty of good books on the topic along with the Civil War Token Journal. You have not mentioned any concrete information and as others have shown there is ample evidence to show that it is a Civil War token. Also, as DCW mentioned Q. David Bowers seems to have agreed it should belong. However, if you have any evidence to show that it is not a Civil War token, then I would be happy to pass it on to John Ostendorf who was in charge of the 3rd edition of the store card book.

    I'll question whatever I feel needs to be questioned. Over and out.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:

    I'll question whatever I feel needs to be questioned. Over and out.

    While you're certainly free to have an opinion (even a contrasting one) and post it here, you are coming across a little abrasive on a thread that was just meant to highlight a piece in my collection. What @CWT1863 is saying is that you take an opposing view of a well established CWT and offer no evidence to support your claim. Then you lecture us about blindly believing what is written online as if we just fell off an apple cart in exonumia land.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By the way the H. Frantz counterstamped example is in brass.
    Here is an awesome example of the D. Skidmore struck in SILVER. Not mine, although I'd love to own it, if someone would point me in the right direction?

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Collecting is a lot less expensive when you don't have to purchase any catalogs.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file