@FSF said:
If you are in your 50s or younger, I personally think we will all witness a sever degradation in the value of these collectibles by the time we pass on, assuming a normal life span.
Good. Then I'll be able to get all those expensive cards for really cheap in my old age. Value, for me, comes from within, an not without.
Bring on the degradation!
Every current active collector always talks like that but when the time comes nobody does the walk. I can even prove it. Cards have exploded so much in the past few years but where were all these eager buyers like yourself when all of these great cards were a fraction of the values just a mere 5 years ago and you could have paid off your houses and college tuitions with the gains? Were you and all these people not aware of the existence of sports cards? Funny how everyone comes out of the woodwork as increasing price action takes place and they all go scurrying to the hills at the first sign of prices collapsing.
I’ll tell you where I was. Afraid of losing my job and sticking to essentials like most in the years coming out of our nations economic disaster.
So let me get this straight, into the 6th year of an economic expansion with unemployment rates under 6%, and the stock market having nearly tripled in a few years, you were that afraid? Okay, let's say you and others were just paranoid from the overhang of the financial crisis. But still, you're somehow exuberantly overjoyed to pay multiples of those prices because what??? You won the lottery???
I have no idea what the F you are talking about with that wise ass made up ending. GFY
@FSF said:
It's a very simple question as to your state of mind supporting your position.
I came back into the hobby when I did. How does anything that happened before that matter to me?All I or anybody else can do is deal with the present. You’re right, very simple.
@FSF said:
It's a very simple question as to your state of mind supporting your position.
I came back into the hobby when I did. How does anything that happened before that matter? All I or anybody else can do is deal with the present. You’re right, very simple.
Fair enough. But what a coincidence that everyone comes flooding back after prices start to increase. Not surprising as FOMO is a real thing with all human beings. Are you aware that a lot of the increase ion price action is due to the rampant shilling that has gone on. Also, consider that there are many collectors who are buying endless multiples of star cards. The distribution of collectors is not as wide as you'd think. Heck there's a guy on this forum with over 3000 George Brett graded rookie cards. When even a few dozen very active collectors who spend a decent amount decide to leave, it will have a noticeable impact on the margin.
And you hit in on the head for all of us, contrary to your incessant declaration that adults come collecting for the first time, you yourself, "came back into the hobby". That's how it pretty much always works. And as passionate as you are today about collecting, its quite probable that it will fade within a couple of years. This history of this forum is littered with collectors "who came back" posted a ton, engaged passionately, and who the heck knows where they are today.
lol 98% of the time I don’t by in places where schilling is even possible
It should also be noted here that the market for single cards is very different from the market for vintage unopened product. Just a few years ago prices for many key cards were just as high or even higher than they are today, not lower. Now, there are many reasons for that, but that distinction needs to be made whereas prices for vintage unopened product, at least for anything 1980 or earlier, are much higher now (in many cases, at least) than they were a few years ago, and even higher than they were 7-8 years ago before prices first began rising.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@softparade said:
I collect primarily unopened now. Probably 95%. I’ve ripped plenty in my time.
Me too, but I'm probably like 80%. All of us unopened geeks should get together in like 25 years at a really cool rendezvous point and just open it all. I'll be 68 at that time and will probably want to enjoy a bacchanalian ripping frenzy.
I do think, too, that set building, which is something I've always personally enjoyed doing, has fallen somewhat out of favor in recent years vs other areas within the hobby. The hobby (imo) continues to evolve over time in that regard.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@PaulMaul said:
Too bad because set building is what I enjoy the most.
Agreed. I just think people dont care so much as we do about chasing down a centered Milt May or Pepe Frias, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree with @FSF that there is a lot of psychology in these situations, much of it driven by message boards like this one. The combination of rising prices and multiple other collectors reinforcing each other’s exuberance is powerful, even though I realize message board participants don’t always include the biggest financial drivers of the market.
@softparade said:
My point is that all that matters was the market I came back to. Not what I missed.
I collect primarily unopened now. Probably 95%. I’ve ripped plenty in my time. Still do with Topps Heritage Baseball. But that’s it.
And that's all fair. I have no issues with any of that. People always hate the messenger, even when they are trying to help them. As I said, while we can't know the future, for you or anyone to ignore the clear fact that a couple of decades from now, there will be no one to "return" or "come back" to the hobby because they never partook in the first place would indeed be fool hearty.
Whatever I do or don't do in the card hobby, will not impact my life or finances in any single way. But it sounds like it may for you, I don't know. And to that, I'm just trying to make sure that you and folks like you are doing all of this with you eyes wide open as they can. I know you probably think you are but as passionate and as emotional as you clearly seem about this, it seems like you're being myopic about the future and only discounting a very rosy scenario.
You seem to think I'm just trying to piss in your Cheerios. Believe it or not, it is coming from an altruistic place. But it's your money and your life. Enjoy it. I just hope you don't wind up regretting it.
Good Lord you are in outer space. I don’t use electric bill money on cards lol. Who regrets any entertainment dollars!
@PaulMaul said:
Too bad because set building is what I enjoy the most.
Agreed. I just think people dont care so much as we do about chasing down a centered Milt May or Pepe Frias, lol..
It’s crazy, I legitimately get just as much pleasure staring at my perfect 1974 Duffy Dyer as I do from a high grade major star.
That's one of the great things about this hobby~so many different ways to collect!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@softparade said:
My point is that all that matters was the market I came back to. Not what I missed.
I collect primarily unopened now. Probably 95%. I’ve ripped plenty in my time. Still do with Topps Heritage Baseball. But that’s it.
And that's all fair. I have no issues with any of that. People always hate the messenger, even when they are trying to help them. As I said, while we can't know the future, for you or anyone to ignore the clear fact that a couple of decades from now, there will be no one to "return" or "come back" to the hobby because they never partook in the first place would indeed be fool hearty.
Whatever I do or don't do in the card hobby, will not impact my life or finances in any single way. But it sounds like it may for you, I don't know. And to that, I'm just trying to make sure that you and folks like you are doing all of this with you eyes wide open as they can. I know you probably think you are but as passionate and as emotional as you clearly seem about this, it seems like you're being myopic about the future and only discounting a very rosy scenario.
You seem to think I'm just trying to piss in your Cheerios. Believe it or not, it is coming from an altruistic place. But it's your money and your life. Enjoy it. I just hope you don't wind up regretting it.
Good Lord you are in outer space. I don’t use electric bill money on cards lol. Who regrets any entertainment dollars!
I highly doubt most collectors who put in a decent sum on their collections looks upon it as merely entertainment dollars. If you do, then that's fine. But guess what, the things I post on a message board isn't for an audience of one.
I say what I want and truly believe. An audience or no audience isn’t a factor.
@softparade said:
My point is that all that matters was the market I came back to. Not what I missed.
I collect primarily unopened now. Probably 95%. I’ve ripped plenty in my time. Still do with Topps Heritage Baseball. But that’s it.
And that's all fair. I have no issues with any of that. People always hate the messenger, even when they are trying to help them. As I said, while we can't know the future, for you or anyone to ignore the clear fact that a couple of decades from now, there will be no one to "return" or "come back" to the hobby because they never partook in the first place would indeed be fool hearty.
Whatever I do or don't do in the card hobby, will not impact my life or finances in any single way. But it sounds like it may for you, I don't know. And to that, I'm just trying to make sure that you and folks like you are doing all of this with you eyes wide open as they can. I know you probably think you are but as passionate and as emotional as you clearly seem about this, it seems like you're being myopic about the future and only discounting a very rosy scenario.
You seem to think I'm just trying to piss in your Cheerios. Believe it or not, it is coming from an altruistic place. But it's your money and your life. Enjoy it. I just hope you don't wind up regretting it.
Good Lord you are in outer space. I don’t use electric bill money on cards lol. Who regrets any entertainment dollars!
I highly doubt most collectors who put in a decent sum on their collections looks upon it as merely entertainment dollars. If you do, then that's fine. But guess what, the things I post on a message board isn't for an audience of one.
I say what I want and truly believe. An audience or no audience isn’t a factor.
As do we all. But it seems like you get rather upset when people with opposing views express what they truly believe if it is in conflict with what your beliefs are. Seriously, chill out. It only makes things worse for yourself to get so worked up about other people's opinions.
@softparade said:
My point is that all that matters was the market I came back to. Not what I missed.
I collect primarily unopened now. Probably 95%. I’ve ripped plenty in my time. Still do with Topps Heritage Baseball. But that’s it.
And that's all fair. I have no issues with any of that. People always hate the messenger, even when they are trying to help them. As I said, while we can't know the future, for you or anyone to ignore the clear fact that a couple of decades from now, there will be no one to "return" or "come back" to the hobby because they never partook in the first place would indeed be fool hearty.
Whatever I do or don't do in the card hobby, will not impact my life or finances in any single way. But it sounds like it may for you, I don't know. And to that, I'm just trying to make sure that you and folks like you are doing all of this with you eyes wide open as they can. I know you probably think you are but as passionate and as emotional as you clearly seem about this, it seems like you're being myopic about the future and only discounting a very rosy scenario.
You seem to think I'm just trying to piss in your Cheerios. Believe it or not, it is coming from an altruistic place. But it's your money and your life. Enjoy it. I just hope you don't wind up regretting it.
Good Lord you are in outer space. I don’t use electric bill money on cards lol. Who regrets any entertainment dollars!
I highly doubt most collectors who put in a decent sum on their collections looks upon it as merely entertainment dollars. If you do, then that's fine. But guess what, the things I post on a message board isn't for an audience of one.
I say what I want and truly believe. An audience or no audience isn’t a factor.
As do we all. But it seems like you get rather upset when people with opposing views express what they truly believe if it is in conflict with what your beliefs are. Seriously, chill out. It only makes things worse for yourself to get so worked up about other people's opinions.
Ha Ha look in the mirror.
I'm not the one throwing F bombs at people for their opposing views.
Pfffft you lie like a rug. You began the slinging...
@softparade said:
And lol at being “afraid”
You are an ass hat FSF if willing to throw ignorant bombs like that.
Are you seriously that ignorant? Being "afraid" was your word, not mine.
I was afraid of my job for a spell which made card buying a bad choice. What’s your point for highlighting that?
My point is, you could have even spent just a couple of thousand bucks a year back then, which very likely would not have been a big deal, when the economy was on firm footing and continually growing with confident economic forecasts of the future, and gotten some kick ass high end Mantles, Mays, Aarons, Brett, Schmidt, etc.
The point is, have things changed so much for you financially that you clearly don't mind paying multiples of that in just a few years? If you were worried about putting resources to cards then, why spend so much more today? Once again, a huge increase in financial resources would be a great explanation, though relegated just to a specific few. The more likelihood scenario, as I've stated repeated, is the FOMO effect and the general exposure of increasing prices. I get that you came back when you came back. But the hobby was there all along for you me and everyone else who wanted to partake. As I said, the** further point is t**hat we're seeing a lot people "return" because they've been exposed to the increasing prices.
between the two of you I count 3 points. you guys scored a fieldgoal.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
@softparade said:
And lol at being “afraid”
You are an ass hat FSF if willing to throw ignorant bombs like that.
Are you seriously that ignorant? Being "afraid" was your word, not mine.
I was afraid of my job for a spell which made card buying a bad choice. What’s your point for highlighting that?
My point is, you could have even spent just a couple of thousand bucks a year back then, which very likely would not have been a big deal, when the economy was on firm footing and continually growing with confident economic forecasts of the future, and gotten some kick ass high end Mantles, Mays, Aarons, Brett, Schmidt, etc.
The point is, have things changed so much for you financially that you clearly don't mind paying multiples of that in just a few years? If you were worried about putting resources to cards then, why spend so much more today? Once again, a huge increase in financial resources would be a great explanation, though relegated just to a specific few. The more likelihood scenario, as I've stated repeated, is the FOMO effect and the general exposure of increasing prices. I get that you came back when you came back. But the hobby was there all along for you me and everyone else who wanted to partake. As I said, the** further point is t**hat we're seeing a lot people "return" because they've been exposed to the increasing prices.
between the two of you I count 3 points. you guys scored a fieldgoal.
@softparade said:
And lol at being “afraid”
You are an ass hat FSF if willing to throw ignorant bombs like that.
Are you seriously that ignorant? Being "afraid" was your word, not mine.
I was afraid of my job for a spell which made card buying a bad choice. What’s your point for highlighting that?
My point is, you could have even spent just a couple of thousand bucks a year back then, which very likely would not have been a big deal, when the economy was on firm footing and continually growing with confident economic forecasts of the future, and gotten some kick ass high end Mantles, Mays, Aarons, Brett, Schmidt, etc.
The point is, have things changed so much for you financially that you clearly don't mind paying multiples of that in just a few years? If you were worried about putting resources to cards then, why spend so much more today? Once again, a huge increase in financial resources would be a great explanation, though relegated just to a specific few. The more likelihood scenario, as I've stated repeated, is the FOMO effect and the general exposure of increasing prices. I get that you came back when you came back. But the hobby was there all along for you me and everyone else who wanted to partake. As I said, the** further point is t**hat we're seeing a lot people "return" because they've been exposed to the increasing prices.
between the two of you I count 3 points. you guys scored a fieldgoal.
I also like to set build. It’s crazy how cheap I can buy or assemble mid grade hockey sets from the 60s and 70s. I think its a function of dwindling number of overall collectors. Hobby has consolidated into high end graded and unopened and modern breakers. Number of overall participants is pretty small. There will always be guys that want the best stuff but there won’t be enough collectors and demand for the mid range stuff, vintage or otherwise.
@grote15 said:
I do think, too, that set building, which is something I've always personally enjoyed doing, has fallen somewhat out of favor in recent years vs other areas within the hobby. The hobby (imo) continues to evolve over time in that regard.
I will jump into the fray. Had a flea market stand with my Dad and did a lot of BST on weekends. Was a blast. Built up my love of cards and my sales skills!. Left market after 83 - high school, sports and girls too over. Probably in the reverse order! The flood of card companies also left me overwhelmed.
Like others, came back to hobby in 2000 when I came into some entertainment income. Today, I collect 70's HOFers mostly and 70's unopened. I am a collector more than investor, but the value of my collection makes me wonder if I should slow down. I have 3 sons in their 20's who are all massive sports fans and all say to me "Dad, when pass away, those cards will be on eBay the next day". They are messing with me, but I do worry about whether a 50k collection will be worth 50k in 20 years. My guess is it wont, but I am not going to lose sleep over it.
If I did I would look at that 50k differently - will it be worth 200k in 20 years would the question to ask. At 7% money doubles every decade. Cards are also expensive to liquidate, around 10% unless you have really special stuff.
Food for thought for those that have a meaningful part of their retirement in cards, gains for everything other then the top end have been middling at best.
@80sOPC said:
Like you Steve I don’t invest, I collect.
If I did I would look at that 50k differently - will it be worth 200k in 20 years would the question to ask. At 7% money doubles every decade. Cards are also expensive to liquidate, around 10% unless you have really special stuff.
Food for thought for those that have a meaningful part of their retirement in cards, gains for everything other then the top end have been middling at best.
I just don't buy it guys. Who here would consider say 1978 Topps as "special" stuff? Probably not many. In 2004 you could have had a 3 box rack case for $2,700. Today North of 10k. It's just one example, but this stuff isn't all that special.
Also, let me *note that I'm not sure where retirement came into this disco but that's certainly not my thought. Who is making cards part of their retirement portfolio?
@softparade Unopened happens to be going through a rapid growth period at the moment. I would wager your 1978 registry set is likely worth less now than when you initially put it together. I know anyone who put together a PSA 9 1972 set in 2010 has lost a lot of value on the set as a whole, though the stars have obviously gone up.
@PaulMaul said: @softparade Unopened happens to be going through a rapid growth period at the moment. I would wager your 1978 registry set is likely worth less now than when you initially put it together. I know anyone who put together a PSA 9 1972 set in 2010 has lost a lot of value on the set as a whole, though the stars have obviously gone up.
The '78 set I put together with not a care in the world on value. I said that dozens of times right here on this forum when I was putting it together in the 2004-2008 timeframe and it holds true today.
@PaulMaul said: @softparade Unopened happens to be going through a rapid growth period at the moment. I would wager your 1978 registry set is likely worth less now than when you initially put it together. I know anyone who put together a PSA 9 1972 set in 2010 has lost a lot of value on the set as a whole, though the stars have obviously gone up.
The '78 set I put together with not a care in the world on value. I said that dozens of times right here on this forum when I was putting it together in the 2004-2008 timeframe and it holds true today.
I’m just saying it hasn’t held value well. Low pop commons have taken a real bath in the interim over all years. Since you put it together mostly by ripping relatively inexpensive unopened you probably still did OK.
@PaulMaul said: @softparade Unopened happens to be going through a rapid growth period at the moment. I would wager your 1978 registry set is likely worth less now than when you initially put it together. I know anyone who put together a PSA 9 1972 set in 2010 has lost a lot of value on the set as a whole, though the stars have obviously gone up.
The '78 set I put together with not a care in the world on value. I said that dozens of times right here on this forum when I was putting it together in the 2004-2008 timeframe and it holds true today.
I’m just saying it hasn’t held value well. Low pop commons have taken a real bath in the interim over all years. Since you put it together mostly by ripping relatively inexpensive unopened you probably still did OK.
No I didn't do OK LOL. I lost significant money no doubt between buying all those wax boxes, the rack case, and multiple large submissions to PSA. I didn't keep track because I didn't care. I look at Topps Heritage the same way. I could save a TON buying a master set and then just upgrading the worst cards. But I'd much rather lose a ton ripping the whole thing myself and being very selective on the cards that go into my set. I'll tell you what, anybody who buys my hand collated sets down the road their jaws will drop haha
I don’t view any of this as an investment either. I figure I’m spending the money on this that other guys waste on more expensive cars and other luxuries I care about less than cards.
This thread has gone from who is not going to the "Natty" or retiring
from attending it to mainly doom and gloom about the future of our
hobby. Un-opened will for the most part will hold its value or increase
due to rippers.
Guys, I'm good with the discussion and opposing sides. But let's remember to keep it all civil. There is no need to drop F bombs or call people names just because someone has a differing opinion.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
@AFLfan said:
Guys, I'm good with the discussion and opposing sides. But let's remember to keep it all civil. There is no need to drop F bombs or call people names just because someone has a differing opinion.
Agreed but lets be honest, good people enjoy a decent train wreck.
78 topps rack cases are a terrible proxy for the larger hobby. Very little of this stuff exists compared to say mid range 70s HOF rookies, vintage sets, etc. Lets be real, you only need 50 guys chasing those rack cases to drive prices up. How many will be at the National, a handful? I think its more relevant that late 80s early 90s wax sells for less then at release. There just isn’t a lot of demand for most hobby product.
And I think you would be surprised at how many collectors have their collections representing a significant part of their net worth. Just a hunch based on all the talk of investing on this forum and others and the obsession with price increases.
@80sOPC said:
Like you Steve I don’t invest, I collect.
If I did I would look at that 50k differently - will it be worth 200k in 20 years would the question to ask. At 7% money doubles every decade. Cards are also expensive to liquidate, around 10% unless you have really special stuff.
Food for thought for those that have a meaningful part of their retirement in cards, gains for everything other then the top end have been middling at best.
I just don't buy it guys. Who here would consider say 1978 Topps as "special" stuff? Probably not many. In 2004 you could have had a 3 box rack case for $2,700. Today North of 10k. It's just one example, but this stuff isn't all that special.
Also, let me *note that I'm not sure where retirement came into this disco but that's certainly not my thought. Who is making cards part of their retirement portfolio?
@80sOPC said:
78 topps rack cases are a terrible proxy for the larger hobby. Very little of this stuff exists compared to say mid range 70s HOF rookies, vintage sets, etc. Lets be real, you only need 50 guys chasing those rack cases to drive prices up. How many will be at the National, a handful? I think its more relevant that late 80s early 90s wax sells for less then at release. There just isn’t a lot of demand for most hobby product.
And I think you would be surprised at how many collectors have their collections representing a significant part of their net worth. Just a hunch based on all the talk of investing on this forum and others and the obsession with price increases.
@80sOPC said:
Like you Steve I don’t invest, I collect.
If I did I would look at that 50k differently - will it be worth 200k in 20 years would the question to ask. At 7% money doubles every decade. Cards are also expensive to liquidate, around 10% unless you have really special stuff.
Food for thought for those that have a meaningful part of their retirement in cards, gains for everything other then the top end have been middling at best.
I just don't buy it guys. Who here would consider say 1978 Topps as "special" stuff? Probably not many. In 2004 you could have had a 3 box rack case for $2,700. Today North of 10k. It's just one example, but this stuff isn't all that special.
Also, let me *note that I'm not sure where retirement came into this disco but that's certainly not my thought. Who is making cards part of their retirement portfolio?
Late 80's and early 90's is the peak of the junk era. THAT time period would be a terrible proxy. Somewhere in a dark warehouse, Donruss is still printing 88's lol
And I think you would be surprised at how many collectors have their collections representing a significant part of their net worth. Just a hunch based on all the talk of investing on this forum and others and the obsession with price increases.
That may be, but I would think for most of these people it's because they're obsessed with collecting more than they are with saving for the future. I would suspect there aren't many people that deliberately have over 50% of their retirement savings in sports collectables. I would think that most people who invest in art, sports collectibles, classic cars, precious metals, etc... do it on the side as a hobby / investment and don't have huge amounts of their net worth tied up in such items.
I have around 5% of my net worth tied up in such items. It's fun and it's an investment / hobby, but it won't kill me if the collectible market tanks.
It IS peak of the junk era and the reason they printed so much was there was significant demand. Cards were sold everywhere - local shows, corner stores, hobby shops. That was peak hobby.
I’m not trying to be a doomer but unless we have an reawakening like we did in the 90s I see participation dropping year over year. And when the boomer and gen x collectors get out I’m not sure there will be enough collectors to consume all that supply.
On a personal level this is far from a bad situation, would be amazing to have a great buying opportunity.
My mindset has always been bring on a crash. My want list is way bigger than my have list and I cannot imagine a crash large enough to flip that equation. If cards went down 90% I would still put the same amount into the hobby each year - but instead of 50s and 60s HOF I could start buying Ruth and Cobb. Instead of PSA 8s I can now buy 9s and 10s.
Each year the list of cards I can likely never afford gets larger. Would much rather cross cards off my want list because I actually bought them than because they have become a pipe dream.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The mistake you guys are making is to think a gradual decline will happen without any change in your desire to buy. The decline will be happening because, eventually, you and your contemporaries will be aging, retiring, and selling. And the buying pool will continue to contract. It’s not the kind of decline you’ll notice in real time.
@PaulMaul said:
The mistake you guys are making is to think a gradual decline will happen without any change in your desire to buy. The decline will be happening because, eventually, you and your contemporaries will be aging, retiring, and selling. And the buying pool will continue to contract. It’s not the kind of decline you’ll notice in real time.
Well, expressing certainty about any financial market's future is always a mistake. Folks were playing the no kids card when much of today's current bowman chrome market was between the ages of 10-15 or younger, and prospect cards are selling for far more than they ever did even if you include inflation. In 2005 no one knew where the market would be in 2019 and no one here knows where it will be in 2035 regardless of what their gut tells them.
Comments
That’s fair. But I’m hoping you spook some into unloading now. Shhh
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I have no idea what the F you are talking about with that wise ass made up ending. GFY
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I came back into the hobby when I did. How does anything that happened before that matter to me?All I or anybody else can do is deal with the present. You’re right, very simple.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
And lol at being “afraid”
You are an ass hat FSF if willing to throw ignorant bombs like that.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
lol 98% of the time I don’t by in places where schilling is even possible
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I was afraid of my job for a spell which made card buying a bad choice. What’s your point for highlighting that?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
My point is that all that matters was the market I came back to. Not what I missed.
I collect primarily unopened now. Probably 95%. I’ve ripped plenty in my time. Still do with Topps Heritage Baseball. But that’s it.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
It should also be noted here that the market for single cards is very different from the market for vintage unopened product. Just a few years ago prices for many key cards were just as high or even higher than they are today, not lower. Now, there are many reasons for that, but that distinction needs to be made whereas prices for vintage unopened product, at least for anything 1980 or earlier, are much higher now (in many cases, at least) than they were a few years ago, and even higher than they were 7-8 years ago before prices first began rising.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Me too, but I'm probably like 80%. All of us unopened geeks should get together in like 25 years at a really cool rendezvous point and just open it all. I'll be 68 at that time and will probably want to enjoy a bacchanalian ripping frenzy.
Andy
I do think, too, that set building, which is something I've always personally enjoyed doing, has fallen somewhat out of favor in recent years vs other areas within the hobby. The hobby (imo) continues to evolve over time in that regard.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Too bad because set building is what I enjoy the most.
Agreed. I just think people dont care so much as we do about chasing down a centered Milt May or Pepe Frias, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree with @FSF that there is a lot of psychology in these situations, much of it driven by message boards like this one. The combination of rising prices and multiple other collectors reinforcing each other’s exuberance is powerful, even though I realize message board participants don’t always include the biggest financial drivers of the market.
It’s crazy, I legitimately get just as much pleasure staring at my perfect 1974 Duffy Dyer as I do from a high grade major star.
Good Lord you are in outer space. I don’t use electric bill money on cards lol. Who regrets any entertainment dollars!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
That's one of the great things about this hobby~so many different ways to collect!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And no way is incorrect.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I say what I want and truly believe. An audience or no audience isn’t a factor.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Ha Ha look in the mirror.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Pfffft you lie like a rug. You began the slinging...
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
between the two of you I count 3 points. you guys scored a fieldgoal.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
That can win a Super Bowl
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
😂
I also like to set build. It’s crazy how cheap I can buy or assemble mid grade hockey sets from the 60s and 70s. I think its a function of dwindling number of overall collectors. Hobby has consolidated into high end graded and unopened and modern breakers. Number of overall participants is pretty small. There will always be guys that want the best stuff but there won’t be enough collectors and demand for the mid range stuff, vintage or otherwise.
I will jump into the fray. Had a flea market stand with my Dad and did a lot of BST on weekends. Was a blast. Built up my love of cards and my sales skills!. Left market after 83 - high school, sports and girls too over. Probably in the reverse order! The flood of card companies also left me overwhelmed.
Like others, came back to hobby in 2000 when I came into some entertainment income. Today, I collect 70's HOFers mostly and 70's unopened. I am a collector more than investor, but the value of my collection makes me wonder if I should slow down. I have 3 sons in their 20's who are all massive sports fans and all say to me "Dad, when pass away, those cards will be on eBay the next day". They are messing with me, but I do worry about whether a 50k collection will be worth 50k in 20 years. My guess is it wont, but I am not going to lose sleep over it.
Steve
Like you Steve I don’t invest, I collect.
If I did I would look at that 50k differently - will it be worth 200k in 20 years would the question to ask. At 7% money doubles every decade. Cards are also expensive to liquidate, around 10% unless you have really special stuff.
Food for thought for those that have a meaningful part of their retirement in cards, gains for everything other then the top end have been middling at best.
I just don't buy it guys. Who here would consider say 1978 Topps as "special" stuff? Probably not many. In 2004 you could have had a 3 box rack case for $2,700. Today North of 10k. It's just one example, but this stuff isn't all that special.
Also, let me *note that I'm not sure where retirement came into this disco but that's certainly not my thought. Who is making cards part of their retirement portfolio?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
@softparade Unopened happens to be going through a rapid growth period at the moment. I would wager your 1978 registry set is likely worth less now than when you initially put it together. I know anyone who put together a PSA 9 1972 set in 2010 has lost a lot of value on the set as a whole, though the stars have obviously gone up.
The '78 set I put together with not a care in the world on value. I said that dozens of times right here on this forum when I was putting it together in the 2004-2008 timeframe and it holds true today.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I’m just saying it hasn’t held value well. Low pop commons have taken a real bath in the interim over all years. Since you put it together mostly by ripping relatively inexpensive unopened you probably still did OK.
No I didn't do OK LOL. I lost significant money no doubt between buying all those wax boxes, the rack case, and multiple large submissions to PSA. I didn't keep track because I didn't care. I look at Topps Heritage the same way. I could save a TON buying a master set and then just upgrading the worst cards. But I'd much rather lose a ton ripping the whole thing myself and being very selective on the cards that go into my set. I'll tell you what, anybody who buys my hand collated sets down the road their jaws will drop haha
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I don’t view any of this as an investment either. I figure I’m spending the money on this that other guys waste on more expensive cars and other luxuries I care about less than cards.
This thread has gone from who is not going to the "Natty" or retiring
from attending it to mainly doom and gloom about the future of our
hobby. Un-opened will for the most part will hold its value or increase
due to rippers.
Guys, I'm good with the discussion and opposing sides. But let's remember to keep it all civil. There is no need to drop F bombs or call people names just because someone has a differing opinion.
Agreed but lets be honest, good people enjoy a decent train wreck.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Maybe, but they typically don't care to be involved in one.
78 topps rack cases are a terrible proxy for the larger hobby. Very little of this stuff exists compared to say mid range 70s HOF rookies, vintage sets, etc. Lets be real, you only need 50 guys chasing those rack cases to drive prices up. How many will be at the National, a handful? I think its more relevant that late 80s early 90s wax sells for less then at release. There just isn’t a lot of demand for most hobby product.
And I think you would be surprised at how many collectors have their collections representing a significant part of their net worth. Just a hunch based on all the talk of investing on this forum and others and the obsession with price increases.
Late 80's and early 90's is the peak of the junk era. THAT time period would be a terrible proxy. Somewhere in a dark warehouse, Donruss is still printing 88's lol
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
That may be, but I would think for most of these people it's because they're obsessed with collecting more than they are with saving for the future. I would suspect there aren't many people that deliberately have over 50% of their retirement savings in sports collectables. I would think that most people who invest in art, sports collectibles, classic cars, precious metals, etc... do it on the side as a hobby / investment and don't have huge amounts of their net worth tied up in such items.
I have around 5% of my net worth tied up in such items. It's fun and it's an investment / hobby, but it won't kill me if the collectible market tanks.
>
Successful transactions on the BST boards with rtimmer, coincoins, gerard, tincup, tjm965, MMR, mission16, dirtygoldman, AUandAG, deadmunny, thedutymon, leadoff4, Kid4HOF03, BRI2327, colebear, mcholke, rpcolettrane, rockdjrw, publius, quik, kalinefan, Allen, JackWESQ, CON40, Griffeyfan2430, blue227, Tiggs2012, ndleo, CDsNuts, ve3rules, doh, MurphDawg, tennessebanker, and gene1978.
It IS peak of the junk era and the reason they printed so much was there was significant demand. Cards were sold everywhere - local shows, corner stores, hobby shops. That was peak hobby.
I’m not trying to be a doomer but unless we have an reawakening like we did in the 90s I see participation dropping year over year. And when the boomer and gen x collectors get out I’m not sure there will be enough collectors to consume all that supply.
On a personal level this is far from a bad situation, would be amazing to have a great buying opportunity.
My mindset has always been bring on a crash. My want list is way bigger than my have list and I cannot imagine a crash large enough to flip that equation. If cards went down 90% I would still put the same amount into the hobby each year - but instead of 50s and 60s HOF I could start buying Ruth and Cobb. Instead of PSA 8s I can now buy 9s and 10s.
Each year the list of cards I can likely never afford gets larger. Would much rather cross cards off my want list because I actually bought them than because they have become a pipe dream.
I dream of a significant crash.
I wouldn’t expect a big crash, I think a slow melt is most likely. High end IMO will continue to grow.
This
By all means, bring on a Joe Louis card collecting crash. Crash them right to Ebay. From Ebay they shall crash right slam into my mailbox.
I could use some $150 75 rack packs again..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The mistake you guys are making is to think a gradual decline will happen without any change in your desire to buy. The decline will be happening because, eventually, you and your contemporaries will be aging, retiring, and selling. And the buying pool will continue to contract. It’s not the kind of decline you’ll notice in real time.
This is how much millennials love cards.
https://nypost.com/2019/07/10/app-to-let-fans-can-buy-minority-shares-of-3m-honus-wagner-baseball-card/
Personally, I couldn't buy into a share of a card. It's either the whole taco, or nothing. Everyone is different though.
I'm sorry; what does any of this have to do with dealers no longer doing the nasty?
Well, expressing certainty about any financial market's future is always a mistake. Folks were playing the no kids card when much of today's current bowman chrome market was between the ages of 10-15 or younger, and prospect cards are selling for far more than they ever did even if you include inflation. In 2005 no one knew where the market would be in 2019 and no one here knows where it will be in 2035 regardless of what their gut tells them.