Typical GOAT thread. Here is a thought, you can have GOATS from different eras! THERE ISN'T ALWAY A SINGLE GOAT!
For example from my Father I learned to respect Jim Brown as the greatest RB of all time but after witnessing Walter Payton I now consider them 1A and 1B.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@Cakes said:
Typical GOAT thread. Here is a thought, you can have GOATS from different eras! THERE ISN'T ALWAY A SINGLE GOAT!
For example from my Father I learned to respect Jim Brown as the greatest RB of all time but after witnessing Walter Payton I now consider them 1A and 1B.
Main reason I brought up Kareem and it could have (and has been) Russell as the guy I argued for. I loved watching Jordan, too. I just enjoy pointing out that the actual player, as opposed to ‘the legend’ he has become, had his own flaws in his game, in reality. For me, you can’t overlook these flaws in his game for the first 6 years in the league or use age as an excuse as to why he couldn’t dominate, much less win, in the league when the league at a time when was (arguably) at it’s best in the 1980s. Magic, Bird and Kareem all had a more immediate impact on the turnaround of the fortunes of the teams that drafted them. Michael certainly needed seasoning to achieve his potential and was quite amazing for 6 seasons from 1991-1998 but I certainly don’t view that which he left on the table by walking away from the game twice and retiring thrice as part of his accomplishments. Also, it’s easily forgotten that the Bulls certainly benefited from expansion as the league watered itself down just as they were becoming the best young team in basketball. Least in need of help and harder for other teams to acquire it.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
"I just enjoy pointing out that the actual player, as opposed to ‘the legend’ he has become (AND ALWAYS WILL BE)"
He is the legend that he has become BECAUSE he was the ACTUAL player he was. I have 5-kids born after his career was over and no one has asked me for Nike Jabbars shoes.
If there was an (senseless) argument vs Mike for GOAT, Jabbar (used to be Kobe) is not who you start with...
I might be getting old but didn't Jabbar win his only Milwaukee championship with Oscar Robertson in 1970 or 1971. He toiled around for a DECADE in the NBA before winning again until a Mr. Earvin "Magic" Johnson came into the league.
At what point should we compare Scottie Pippen (Jordan's sidekick) to Oscar and Earvin? How about Jordan's dominate centers (that he had in Chicago) in an era that you couldn't win without a legitimate center?
Does anyone have Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley on their top 10 NBA all-time centers?
@WAXPACKCOLLECTOR said:
"I just enjoy pointing out that the actual player, as opposed to ‘the legend’ he has become (AND ALWAYS WILL BE)"
He is the legend that he has become BECAUSE he was the ACTUAL player he was. I have 5-kids born after his career was over and no one has asked me for Nike Jabbars shoes.
If there was an (senseless) argument vs Mike for GOAT, Jabbar (used to be Kobe) is not who you start with...
Wax, Respectfully I liked your other posts better than this one. This is not a shoe selling popularity contest! Thankfully the Starrbury's and the BBB brands didn't take off.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Michael Jordan. I can't believe there's even an argument. That name just sends chills down your spine. Just say it out loud. Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan. Oooooooooooh yeah.
Kareem was drafted by a team that finished 24-56 and the next year they were 55-25. Then four straight first places which saw two finals appearances and one championship then he was hurt in year 6. That’s his 6 years in Milwaukee. I am not sure if winning 6 MVPs from 1970-1980 is toiling. Perhaps there’s a better verb that that?
Oscar Robertson is an all time great. By the time he got to Milwaukee, he was already past his prime. So the Bucks years Robertson and Scottie Pippen is probably a wash.
The era of center dominance was actually already being legislated out of the game prior to Michael’s arrival, and it only accelerated during his career - and I think it was partly done because of Michael Jordan. Don’t forget, the Pistons had already won back to back with James Edwards. And it went to another level because of Shaq. And the Bulls had 3 7 footers on the team at all times. Don’t forget Wil Perdue and Bill Wennington, mainly there to foul the opposing centers 15 times a game. This garbage strategy was doubly effective since, around the same time, they started giving flagrant fouls when any guard came in the lane and got creamed by the big men protecting the rim.
But, in the same era, three guys could foul Shaquille O’Neal and it’s a defensive ‘strategy’ that is league approved! Then - here’s the best part - it’s repealed as soon as he’s retired!
Now, 7 footers shoot threes!
And, it’s a much better game!
NBA...it’s FANtastic!
And not watched by me for quite some time.
I now exclusively watch college to get my basketball fix. Mid majors play the best brand, in my opinion.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Kareem was drafted by a team that finished 24-56 and the next year they were 55-25. Then four straight first places which saw two finals appearances and one championship then he was hurt in year 6. That’s his 6 years in Milwaukee. I am not sure if winning 6 MVPs from 1970-1980 is toiling. Perhaps there’s a better verb that that?
Oscar Robertson is an all time great. By the time he got to Milwaukee, he was already past his prime. So the Bucks years Robertson and Scottie Pippen is probably a wash.
The era of center dominance was actually already being legislated out of the game prior to Michael’s arrival, and it only accelerated during his career - and I think it was partly done because of Michael Jordan. Don’t forget, the Pistons had already won back to back with James Edwards. And it went to another level because of Shaq. And the Bulls had 3 7 footers on the team at all times. Don’t forget Wil Perdue and Bill Wennington, mainly there to foul the opposing centers 15 times a game. This garbage strategy was doubly effective since, around the same time, they started giving flagrant fouls when any guard came in the lane and got creamed by the big men protecting the rim.
But, in the same era, three guys could foul Shaquille O’Neal and it’s a defensive ‘strategy’ that is league approved! Then - here’s the best part - it’s repealed as soon as he’s retired!
Now, 7 footers shoot threes!
And, it’s a much better game!
NBA...it’s FANtastic!
And not watched by me for quite some time.
I now exclusively watch college to get my basketball fix. Mid majors play the best brand, in my opinion.
You don't watch NBA these days? Just look at this face. What's not to love?
@doubledragon said:
Michael Jordan. I can't believe there's even an argument. That name just sends chills down your spine. Just say it out loud. Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan. Oooooooooooh yeah.
Kinda creepy but I tried it anyway.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
We can argue legendary status and whether or not a player deserves to be revered to a certain level or not. We can argue who has the most unstoppable shot - Abdul-Jabbar's sky hook or Jordan's fade away. I believe both shots were equally unguardable. Kareem is the all time leading scorer when considering total points. Jordan is the all time leading scorer when considering average. Both won multiple championships.
With this post, I want to do my best to try to explain how Jordan's legendary status got to the level it is today.
Both Kareem and Jordan were masters at simply putting the ball in the basket. I would argue that Jordan was more consistent at it having won 10 straight scoring titles. I would argue that Jordan would put the ball in the basket in many more ways than Kareem could. In Jordan's 3rd year he averaged 37 points per game. Granted, he didn't have much of a team surrounding him, so he took the bulk of the shots....but still....37 per game.
So, Kareem was comparable to Jordan's scoring ability. However, you didn't have people"ooohing" and "aaahing" at Kareem's sky hook. With Jordan, he captivated an entire nation with the way he could soar through the air. That's why the called him "Air Jordan". Just take a look at all of those gifs. The kiss the rim dunk was mesmerizing. That move he had against the Nets.....that was ridiculous. I still say that that move was the best move in NBA history, but, of course, that is a matter of opinion. My point is that NOBODY captured the country's imagination like Michael Jordan did.
On the other hand, there have been plenty of players in NBA history with close to similar athletic ability. One of the best dunkers and high flyers in history was Vince Carter. That dude was incredible. But he didn't dominate games like Jordan did. To create a player like Jordan you have to COMBINE the scoring ability with Kareem with the high flying act of Vince Carter.
In other words....there is a REASON why kids today still want to buy Air Jordan's. My son never saw him play. He was born in 2000 and doesn't remember even the Wizards version of Jordan. And even though he never saw him play in real time, he is captivated by YouTube highlights of Jordan. I don't think he would be interested in watching many Kareem videos.
And I will add this.....nobody was more clutch and could close a game out like Jordan. Time after time after time he won games by himself in the closing seconds.
When you combine it all, there is simply no greater basketball player in history the His Airness.
Kareem was drafted by a team that finished 24-56 and the next year they were 55-25. Then four straight first places which saw two finals appearances and one championship then he was hurt in year 6. That’s his 6 years in Milwaukee. I am not sure if winning 6 MVPs from 1970-1980 is toiling. Perhaps there’s a better verb that that?
Oscar Robertson is an all time great. By the time he got to Milwaukee, he was already past his prime. So the Bucks years Robertson and Scottie Pippen is probably a wash.
The era of center dominance was actually already being legislated out of the game prior to Michael’s arrival, and it only accelerated during his career - and I think it was partly done because of Michael Jordan. Don’t forget, the Pistons had already won back to back with James Edwards. And it went to another level because of Shaq. And the Bulls had 3 7 footers on the team at all times. Don’t forget Wil Perdue and Bill Wennington, mainly there to foul the opposing centers 15 times a game. This garbage strategy was doubly effective since, around the same time, they started giving flagrant fouls when any guard came in the lane and got creamed by the big men protecting the rim.
But, in the same era, three guys could foul Shaquille O’Neal and it’s a defensive ‘strategy’ that is league approved! Then - here’s the best part - it’s repealed as soon as he’s retired!
Now, 7 footers shoot threes!
And, it’s a much better game!
NBA...it’s FANtastic!
And not watched by me for quite some time.
I now exclusively watch college to get my basketball fix. ** Mid majors play the best brand, in my opinion**.
I am generally pretty open to discussions on basketball. I think it is sort of an exercise in futility trying to compare players across different eras as there is no actual way to accurately compare them. Things such as rules changes, differences in pace of play, varying levels of competition, competitive balance within the league generally confound any objective measure of GOATness. For this reason, people will generally cling to whatever opinions they have in these arguments. The MJ guys will generally ride with MJ, just as the Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Wilt or Russell guys will roll with their favorites. Millions of words have been splashed across message boards for decades and I would be surprised if even one person changed their minds on their opinion of the GOAT based off of reading what someone else wrote.
I am definitely in the Jordan camp as the GOAT (at least the greatest I ever saw), but I only saw the older version of Kareem in the mid-80's. I can entertain arguments for the other guys I listed above and their candidacy for GOAT, but my vote still goes to Jordan. One thing I would question you on is your last statement regarding college basketball and mid majors. I love the current NBA. The overall talent in the league and the effort the current guys play with in the league is at an all time level in my opinion. I used to watch college basketball, but I find it ridiculously poor to watch these days. The early entry era has been good for the NBA but the quality of college basketball is way down from what I saw in the 80's and 90's when you had great players staying three or four years. I find college basketball to be virtually unwatchable these days.
Not to mention that despite the travel and the four feet of space, there’s a decent chance Clyde Drexler was called for a foul; I don’t remember anyone in the history of the game who received the benefit of more foul calls on fade-away’s.
Coaches actually used to teach kids NOT to fade away as the ref won’t give you the call. Then came Jordan.
And while I don’t recall whom it was, someone hit the nail on the head when they mentioned (I’m paraphrasing. Badly.), ‘Man, nobody could get away with a push off like Jordan!’
And that’s also true. Nobody could push off like Mike. Because everyone else was called for an offensive foul when they did it. But, as mentioned by all his fans...
...Yeah, but he looked so good doing it. So I guess that makes it ok.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Jordan's pushoff is no different than Lebron or Giannis lowering a shoulder on the way to the hoop bowling over the defender then ending up at the line. Embiid does the same with his shoulder but its done during a backdown to the basket. Long distance shooters like Harden & Curry get away with their sidestep/stepback from 25ft away. Every star player gets away with "Euro-stepping" their way to the hoop not to mention many three point shooters get away with taking a three with a defender nearby then kicking out a leg to create contact on the way down insuring he'll at least get to the line for three.
Big men like Kareem and the other centers from his playing days would get away with using their arms & elbows to push back defenders to create room as they back them down to the basket. They all pushed off like Jordan did and Kareem was no exception,once he shouldered you down to his spot,his left elbow would hold off the defender as he went into his skyhook. Every star player through the years got away with stuff that average players woukldn't,this is nothing new and there isn't just one player that got the most of these noncalls through the years. It may look that way with their being plenty of footage for modern players like Lebron/Harden/Giannis and still a good amount for players during the Bird/Magic/Jordan years in the 80/90's and I have no doubt that had their been a million memes & youtube clips for players like Kareem,Wilt & Russell then we'd see plenty of times that those three got away with plenty of noncalls. That league is star driven and they've been catering to players for as long as I can remember.
Comments
Eyes closed.
Ya'll ready for this?
That's James Harden on every play.
Typical GOAT thread. Here is a thought, you can have GOATS from different eras! THERE ISN'T ALWAY A SINGLE GOAT!
For example from my Father I learned to respect Jim Brown as the greatest RB of all time but after witnessing Walter Payton I now consider them 1A and 1B.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Main reason I brought up Kareem and it could have (and has been) Russell as the guy I argued for. I loved watching Jordan, too. I just enjoy pointing out that the actual player, as opposed to ‘the legend’ he has become, had his own flaws in his game, in reality. For me, you can’t overlook these flaws in his game for the first 6 years in the league or use age as an excuse as to why he couldn’t dominate, much less win, in the league when the league at a time when was (arguably) at it’s best in the 1980s. Magic, Bird and Kareem all had a more immediate impact on the turnaround of the fortunes of the teams that drafted them. Michael certainly needed seasoning to achieve his potential and was quite amazing for 6 seasons from 1991-1998 but I certainly don’t view that which he left on the table by walking away from the game twice and retiring thrice as part of his accomplishments. Also, it’s easily forgotten that the Bulls certainly benefited from expansion as the league watered itself down just as they were becoming the best young team in basketball. Least in need of help and harder for other teams to acquire it.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
"I just enjoy pointing out that the actual player, as opposed to ‘the legend’ he has become (AND ALWAYS WILL BE)"
He is the legend that he has become BECAUSE he was the ACTUAL player he was. I have 5-kids born after his career was over and no one has asked me for Nike Jabbars shoes.
If there was an (senseless) argument vs Mike for GOAT, Jabbar (used to be Kobe) is not who you start with...
I might be getting old but didn't Jabbar win his only Milwaukee championship with Oscar Robertson in 1970 or 1971. He toiled around for a DECADE in the NBA before winning again until a Mr. Earvin "Magic" Johnson came into the league.
At what point should we compare Scottie Pippen (Jordan's sidekick) to Oscar and Earvin? How about Jordan's dominate centers (that he had in Chicago) in an era that you couldn't win without a legitimate center?
Does anyone have Bill Cartwright or Luc Longley on their top 10 NBA all-time centers?
Wax, Respectfully I liked your other posts better than this one. This is not a shoe selling popularity contest! Thankfully the Starrbury's and the BBB brands didn't take off.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Michael Jordan. I can't believe there's even an argument. That name just sends chills down your spine. Just say it out loud. Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan. Oooooooooooh yeah.
@WAXPACKCOLLECTOR
Kareem was drafted by a team that finished 24-56 and the next year they were 55-25. Then four straight first places which saw two finals appearances and one championship then he was hurt in year 6. That’s his 6 years in Milwaukee. I am not sure if winning 6 MVPs from 1970-1980 is toiling. Perhaps there’s a better verb that that?
Oscar Robertson is an all time great. By the time he got to Milwaukee, he was already past his prime. So the Bucks years Robertson and Scottie Pippen is probably a wash.
The era of center dominance was actually already being legislated out of the game prior to Michael’s arrival, and it only accelerated during his career - and I think it was partly done because of Michael Jordan. Don’t forget, the Pistons had already won back to back with James Edwards. And it went to another level because of Shaq. And the Bulls had 3 7 footers on the team at all times. Don’t forget Wil Perdue and Bill Wennington, mainly there to foul the opposing centers 15 times a game. This garbage strategy was doubly effective since, around the same time, they started giving flagrant fouls when any guard came in the lane and got creamed by the big men protecting the rim.
But, in the same era, three guys could foul Shaquille O’Neal and it’s a defensive ‘strategy’ that is league approved! Then - here’s the best part - it’s repealed as soon as he’s retired!
Now, 7 footers shoot threes!
And, it’s a much better game!
NBA...it’s FANtastic!
And not watched by me for quite some time.
I now exclusively watch college to get my basketball fix. Mid majors play the best brand, in my opinion.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
You don't watch NBA these days? Just look at this face. What's not to love?
Kinda creepy but I tried it anyway.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
We can argue legendary status and whether or not a player deserves to be revered to a certain level or not. We can argue who has the most unstoppable shot - Abdul-Jabbar's sky hook or Jordan's fade away. I believe both shots were equally unguardable. Kareem is the all time leading scorer when considering total points. Jordan is the all time leading scorer when considering average. Both won multiple championships.
With this post, I want to do my best to try to explain how Jordan's legendary status got to the level it is today.
Both Kareem and Jordan were masters at simply putting the ball in the basket. I would argue that Jordan was more consistent at it having won 10 straight scoring titles. I would argue that Jordan would put the ball in the basket in many more ways than Kareem could. In Jordan's 3rd year he averaged 37 points per game. Granted, he didn't have much of a team surrounding him, so he took the bulk of the shots....but still....37 per game.
So, Kareem was comparable to Jordan's scoring ability. However, you didn't have people"ooohing" and "aaahing" at Kareem's sky hook. With Jordan, he captivated an entire nation with the way he could soar through the air. That's why the called him "Air Jordan". Just take a look at all of those gifs. The kiss the rim dunk was mesmerizing. That move he had against the Nets.....that was ridiculous. I still say that that move was the best move in NBA history, but, of course, that is a matter of opinion. My point is that NOBODY captured the country's imagination like Michael Jordan did.
On the other hand, there have been plenty of players in NBA history with close to similar athletic ability. One of the best dunkers and high flyers in history was Vince Carter. That dude was incredible. But he didn't dominate games like Jordan did. To create a player like Jordan you have to COMBINE the scoring ability with Kareem with the high flying act of Vince Carter.
In other words....there is a REASON why kids today still want to buy Air Jordan's. My son never saw him play. He was born in 2000 and doesn't remember even the Wizards version of Jordan. And even though he never saw him play in real time, he is captivated by YouTube highlights of Jordan. I don't think he would be interested in watching many Kareem videos.
And I will add this.....nobody was more clutch and could close a game out like Jordan. Time after time after time he won games by himself in the closing seconds.
When you combine it all, there is simply no greater basketball player in history the His Airness.
Shane
I am generally pretty open to discussions on basketball. I think it is sort of an exercise in futility trying to compare players across different eras as there is no actual way to accurately compare them. Things such as rules changes, differences in pace of play, varying levels of competition, competitive balance within the league generally confound any objective measure of GOATness. For this reason, people will generally cling to whatever opinions they have in these arguments. The MJ guys will generally ride with MJ, just as the Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Wilt or Russell guys will roll with their favorites. Millions of words have been splashed across message boards for decades and I would be surprised if even one person changed their minds on their opinion of the GOAT based off of reading what someone else wrote.
I am definitely in the Jordan camp as the GOAT (at least the greatest I ever saw), but I only saw the older version of Kareem in the mid-80's. I can entertain arguments for the other guys I listed above and their candidacy for GOAT, but my vote still goes to Jordan. One thing I would question you on is your last statement regarding college basketball and mid majors. I love the current NBA. The overall talent in the league and the effort the current guys play with in the league is at an all time level in my opinion. I used to watch college basketball, but I find it ridiculously poor to watch these days. The early entry era has been good for the NBA but the quality of college basketball is way down from what I saw in the 80's and 90's when you had great players staying three or four years. I find college basketball to be virtually unwatchable these days.
Unstoppable! 🏀🏀🏀
Yes - if you are not bound by the basic rules of play, you can be hard to defend.
I enjoy watching him move both feet without dribbling - a travel - before making a neat fade away.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
My favorite Jordan pic. Dunking in Indiana University's own Assembly Hall. Awesome!
Not to mention that despite the travel and the four feet of space, there’s a decent chance Clyde Drexler was called for a foul; I don’t remember anyone in the history of the game who received the benefit of more foul calls on fade-away’s.
Coaches actually used to teach kids NOT to fade away as the ref won’t give you the call. Then came Jordan.
And while I don’t recall whom it was, someone hit the nail on the head when they mentioned (I’m paraphrasing. Badly.), ‘Man, nobody could get away with a push off like Jordan!’
And that’s also true. Nobody could push off like Mike. Because everyone else was called for an offensive foul when they did it. But, as mentioned by all his fans...
...Yeah, but he looked so good doing it. So I guess that makes it ok.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Jordan's pushoff is no different than Lebron or Giannis lowering a shoulder on the way to the hoop bowling over the defender then ending up at the line. Embiid does the same with his shoulder but its done during a backdown to the basket. Long distance shooters like Harden & Curry get away with their sidestep/stepback from 25ft away. Every star player gets away with "Euro-stepping" their way to the hoop not to mention many three point shooters get away with taking a three with a defender nearby then kicking out a leg to create contact on the way down insuring he'll at least get to the line for three.
Big men like Kareem and the other centers from his playing days would get away with using their arms & elbows to push back defenders to create room as they back them down to the basket. They all pushed off like Jordan did and Kareem was no exception,once he shouldered you down to his spot,his left elbow would hold off the defender as he went into his skyhook. Every star player through the years got away with stuff that average players woukldn't,this is nothing new and there isn't just one player that got the most of these noncalls through the years. It may look that way with their being plenty of footage for modern players like Lebron/Harden/Giannis and still a good amount for players during the Bird/Magic/Jordan years in the 80/90's and I have no doubt that had their been a million memes & youtube clips for players like Kareem,Wilt & Russell then we'd see plenty of times that those three got away with plenty of noncalls. That league is star driven and they've been catering to players for as long as I can remember.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486