Article: Blue and Purple Toned Copper Coins - Eliasberg

Zoins

Interesting 2017 blog article by Larry Shepherd that I just ran across which seems like it was discussing posts on this forum as it mentions @STEWARTBLAYNUMIS and @EagleEye, possibly even one I was reading at the time. I guess I should follow Larry's blog more.

Was there a follow up to this? Was there a final conclusion on MS70 and blue/purple copper?

Toned Copper Coins–Don’t be Spooked by the Ramblings of Fools
Let’s Kill Another Urban Legend
by Larry Shepherd

http://www.simcocoins.com/toned-copper-coins-dont-spooked-ramblings-fools/

Some excerpts below:

The MS-70 myth was started many years ago by one of the Forum “experts” and took on a life of its own, being repeated ad nauseum by those who believe everything they hear and are too lazy to do any research themselves.
[...]
Neither MS-70, nor other similar brands of coin cleansers, will turn a Red or Red/Brown Copper coin blue. Or purple. Or violet. Or crimson red. It will only turn a Red or Red/Brown Copper coin brighter. Every time! No exceptions! It doesn’t matter if you apply it full strength, or diluted. It doesn’t work as a toning agent! It will remove dirt and surface film, making the coin brighter, but it does not react with the underlying copper. Furthermore, the brighter color looks unnatural, likely rendering any such enhanced coin upgradable.

Three of the four coins in the article are still certified. The two Eliasberg coins are described below. The one thing to mention is that while Larry says PCGS added the Eliasberg pedigree, PCGS Certainly Verification doesn’t list it.

The two coins pictured above were among many proof Indian Cents and proof Two Cent pieces I purchased directly from the Louis Eliasberg sale in 1996. The Indians had been purchased straight from the mint by John Clapp in their years of issue, and sold to Louis Eliasberg in 1942. No one else ever had possession of them from the time they left the mint until they were sold at auction and submitted to the grading services, still sealed in their auction flips; which was a requirement to get the pedigree on the holder. They were all toned beautiful blue, red, and purple/violet as above. It was early in my enchantment with toned Indians and I entered the sale with hopes of buying the entire date run of proof Indians and Two Cent pieces because they were so pretty and came with such a fascinating history and pedigree.

1865 2 Cent - PR66BN Non-CAC - Eliasberg-Shepherd

• https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25032833

1902 1 Cent - PR64RB Non-CAC - Clapp-Eliasberg-Shepherd

• https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25050464

1886 1 Cent - PR66+BN Non-CAC - Shepherd

• https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25348681

1885 1 Cent - Shepherd

Desert Moon

Fully agree, most blue-purple copper is naturally toned, not from MS70. I have done the experiments and posted some here but there are still folks that just won't listen, even in the case of experimental evidence.

I saw this quote below on the wall of a Max Planck institute when I was interviewing (and presenting findings in disagreement with the old director), at the time I found it ironic, the candidate list was 2, one was saying 'director you are right' and it was not me. 25 years later now, we just published the final nail in the coffin on some of those myths. New truths..........

This applies here about how myths die:

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/max_planck

It will probably take a generation to change the MS70 myth.

Best, SH

ricko

I have noticed in the past, that many of those with strong opinions, in direct conflict with evidence based research, do not bother to do the experimentation necessary to support their beliefs. Much like the old adage, "The Captain goes down with the ship." Not smart at all.... Cheers, RickO

coinsarefun

This is in an older NGC MS65 RB holder.
.
.

MFeld

There are a number of highly expert collectors, dealers and graders who are not "fools" and who don't believe that the MS70 issue is a myth or urban legend.

Rooster1

, the brighter color looks unnatural, likely rendering any such enhanced coin upgradable.
Did he mean to say ungradable?

ElmerFusterpuck

A question: if the blue color truly came from MS-70 on a copper coin, would acetone remove it?

Insider2

@MFeld said: There are a number of highly expert collectors, dealers and graders who are not "fools" and who don't believe that the MS70 issue is a myth or urban legend.

I agree.

BTW, there is only one aspect of blue toning and copper that has not been covered in the past: What is the chemical reaction that causes some brown copper to turn blue with the application of acetone and some brown copper to remain unaffected! Hopefully, the stupid, IGNORANT opinion that a brown coin is actually a blue coin hiding under some haze will not be tolerated in this discussion as it was in the last.

Let me make this VERY, VERY SIMPLE just in case there are some folks who are "fools" or have been "fooled."

SOME BLUE COPPER IS 100% NATURALLY OCCURRING.

SOME BLUE COPPER CAN BE PRODUCED CHEMICALLY AND EASILY REMOVED.

I say this with 100% certainty as I have done it (too many times to count!) at first by accident while conserving a brown Proof Indian cent decades ago at NCS. That's when I learned how to restore the coin back to its original BROWN color with no one the wiser.

Finally, I'll leave you to consider this: Rick and Larry are VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE COIN DEALERS.

That is all I will say but I sure wish I could write the rest of the story.

Insider2

@ElmerFusterpuck said:
A question: if the blue color truly came from MS-70 on a copper coin, would acetone remove it?

NO. MS-70 usually harmless to copper* but in some cases it can be part of the "blue reaction."

*MS-70 will often make a spot on a copper coin turn red and more noticeable.

jabba

I know there was a post a few years back that shows two proof Indian cents with exact same marks and carbon spots one was brown and the other a similar purple the concussion was it was the same coin, so was it dipped? Just thought I would add I my self have no idea on the subject but I do like the colors!

lusterlover

This thread may take on a life of its own, but even if I agree with the OP, regardless of what ATed a copper coin blue, I still believe that 2/3 of the blue toned copper is AT. The problem is that I can't tell the difference so I stay away. You could argue the first 2 coins failed CAC because of the palm prints, not necessarily the blue toning FWIW.

Insider2

@lusterlover said:
This thread may take on a life of its own, but even if I agree with the OP, regardless of what ATed a copper coin blue, I still believe that 2/3 of the blue toned copper is AT. The problem is that I can't tell the difference so I stay away. You could argue the first 2 coins failed CAC because of the palm prints, not necessarily the blue toning FWIW.

I've been told by a large submitter who took my conservation course that sometime last year, the services have tightened up on the "blue gifts."

keets

without knowing who is who as referenced in the article I will assume I am one of the aforementioned "Fools" who refuse to believe what the author and others believe.

as to not believing in the "scientific evidence" I will only say that I have done some experimenting of my own and my results aren't the same as those of others.

this is an interesting topic with strong opinions. absent any Industry sponsored research, standardized and performed by unbiased professionals, I doubt we will ever settle things. even with that(one way or the other) some of us won't be satisfied. to my way of thinking, as long as those who stand to profit from any "opinion" about the Truth are the ones forming the opinion, I am hesitant to agree with it.

MikeInFL

One of the author's arguments seems to be that since there are some examples of naturally toned blue copper then one should accept the rest. The author of this article, and its proponent, also make markets in these coins and have for a long time. I believe my own two eyes and Stuart Blay, and ask the reader consider this: If a red car has five layers of paint and you remove all but three chemically, is the third color (i.e. blue) the natural one? Would finding a red car that turned blue in the crate from the factory make any difference to the chemically induced example? This bag of wind thinks the answer to those questions are "no" and "no", but you are free to answer (and collect and even market) however you see fit...Mike

coinbuf

@jabba said:
I know there was a post a few years back that shows two proof Indian cents with exact same marks and carbon spots one was brown and the other a similar purple the concussion was it was the same coin, so was it dipped? Just thought I would add I my self have no idea on the subject but I do like the colors!

Dip and MS70 are two different agents and will provide different results on copper. Dipping a copper coin can very easily ruin a copper coin, MS70 in some circumstances can produce blue and purple results. I have done this myself I know it can be done its not a myth at all.

koynekwest

The first two are very pretty!

Elcontador

There was a heated discussion on this form I believe in 2003 and / or 2004. Several individuals were taking low to mid grade BN PF IHCs, artificially making them neon blue, resubmitting them, getting upgrades, and reselling them at handsome profits. I am not going to mention the TPG / TPGs, involved.

A poster with the handle, 'Shylock,' whose name I will not reveal here, knew quite a bit about IHCs, and contributed to this discussion. He wrote to the effect that the sulfur laden paper in which these PF IHCs were housed by the mint caused the coins to tone over time. The toning was most noticeable on the areas of the coin which had the most contact with this paper.

I am not an IHC expert. The only one I own is a business strike 09 P in 65 RD in an OGH.
But Shylock's comments made sense to me. There's a difference between a bluish toned PF IHC, and a neon blue PF IHC. The major TPGs have known this for a number of years, now.

oih82w8

My 09 V.D.B. has been described as appearing to have been treated with MS70 in a previous thread.

Insider2

@koynekwest said:
The first two are very pretty!

Most blue, iridescent copper is beautiful to me. I like Carnival Glass too.

Insider2

@oih82w8 said:
My 09 V.D.B. has been described as appearing to have been treated with MS70 in a previous thread.

So what. it is a beautiful coin. Did the detractor claim he was there when the color developed?

koynekwest

Those blue and purple colors aren't restricted to copper-

PerryHall

@ElmerFusterpuck said:
A question: if the blue color truly came from MS-70 on a copper coin, would acetone remove it?

Acetone will remove organic deposits but won't remove toning. If the blue color is from a chemical reaction with the copper, the acetone won't remove it.

keets

be careful, Perry, you are treading on POTD water.

an aside to koynekwest --- you shouldn't try to compare the tone of Silver and copper, it ain't a fair fight. that Silver Ike was stored inside of a plastic holder for probably 30+ years.

tradedollarnut

Furthermore, the brighter color looks unnatural, likely rendering any such enhanced coin upgradable.

???

keets

Bruce, I believe in psycho-babble parlance that is referred to as a Freudian slip.

OldIndianNutKase

The other side of this coin argument is how many RD copper coins are AR (Artificially Red). I have submitted a number of RAW RD Indian Proofs and PCGS has called ALL of them as code .91 Questionable Color. Most of the bluish BN coins that I have submitted to PCGS have straight graded. But there can exist a significant price difference between a BN coin and a RD coin, and thus more incentive to artificially change a coin's color.

But some toned IHC proofs do come with pedigrees that date to a time before TPG grading. BN coins are not always blue, as is this Indian PR with a Col. Green / Newman providence:

I find Shepherd and Snow, and PCGS, to be credible experts on copper toning. My experiments with MS70, and a few others, have yielded no color of any kind imparted to copper.

OINK

Zoins

@coinbuf said:

@jabba said:
I know there was a post a few years back that shows two proof Indian cents with exact same marks and carbon spots one was brown and the other a similar purple the concussion was it was the same coin, so was it dipped? Just thought I would add I my self have no idea on the subject but I do like the colors!

Dip and MS70 are two different agents and will provide different results on copper. Dipping a copper coin can very easily ruin a copper coin, MS70 in some circumstances can produce blue and purple results. I have done this myself I know it can be done its not a myth at all.

Interesting. Of the people who tried MS70, it turned coins blue for some people and not others. I wonder if it had to do with the coins or the application?

Would be good to see before and after photos.

MFeld

@Zoins said:

@coinbuf said:

@jabba said:
I know there was a post a few years back that shows two proof Indian cents with exact same marks and carbon spots one was brown and the other a similar purple the concussion was it was the same coin, so was it dipped? Just thought I would add I my self have no idea on the subject but I do like the colors!

Dip and MS70 are two different agents and will provide different results on copper. Dipping a copper coin can very easily ruin a copper coin, MS70 in some circumstances can produce blue and purple results. I have done this myself I know it can be done its not a myth at all.

Interesting. Of the people who tried MS70, it turned coins blue for some people and not others. I wonder if it had to do with the coins or the application?

Would be good to see before and after photos.

Many before and after photos have been posted in various threads.

Aercus

The blue color on ihc proofs is causes by copper sulfide, as opposed to the usual dominant color caused by cuprous/cupric oxide. This can be causes by exposure to various sulfur compounds, including those present in the old tissue wrapping for proofs. Of course, it can be induced more quickly as well with modern techniques. The surface color can be modified to brown by the application of a thin coat of an oil, such as skin oil.

So is it natural or artificial? Up to you depending on your definition. Just know that some of those coins acquired their color through long term storage and others had some additional 'help'.

MFeld

The title of the article linked in this thread is “Toned Copper Coins–Don’t be Spooked by the Ramblings of Fools”. My belief is that when people resort to insults, when trying to make their case, it can indicate that they know their argument doesn't stand on its own merits.

PTVETTER

I remember a member here. Once posted a blueish toned IHC.
Later someone posted a INC not the same color
Then some how did an overlay showing it’s the coins were the same coin with the same marks in the same place.
Looked like MS70 was used!

ms70

I always had the feeling that purple on any coin was a red flag.

coinbuf

@Zoins said:

@coinbuf said:

@jabba said:
I know there was a post a few years back that shows two proof Indian cents with exact same marks and carbon spots one was brown and the other a similar purple the concussion was it was the same coin, so was it dipped? Just thought I would add I my self have no idea on the subject but I do like the colors!

Dip and MS70 are two different agents and will provide different results on copper. Dipping a copper coin can very easily ruin a copper coin, MS70 in some circumstances can produce blue and purple results. I have done this myself I know it can be done its not a myth at all.

Interesting. Of the people who tried MS70, it turned coins blue for some people and not others. I wonder if it had to do with the coins or the application?

Would be good to see before and after photos.

I didn't take any photos as I was doing my experimenting to educate myself. As a copper collector I have tried many such experiments so that I can better identify what I'm seeing out in the market. Keep in mind that MS70 is not reacting with the copper itself but rather with the tarnish layer on the coins surface, hence why you see the wide range of results from no change to full on blue/purple. The coins age has much to do with the result also, the older the coin the thicker the surface contaminates and the more likely a chance of a reaction. A full red coin has little to no surface tarnish so that's why you rarely see much if any change to a red coin after applying MS70. Red/browns are a mixed bag because the surface layers are different thicknesses and a mixture of contaminates. Brown copper has the best chance of seeing the blue/purple colors as those coins have the thickest surface layer.

The upshot of all this is that which coins and the amount of change is not predictable as some coins have just become more shinny and others have changed color. That is why you see different opinions on the effect of using MS70, it doesn't impart color on every coin. And I have no doubt that as you mentioned application plays a part as well. I'm not a chemist and I will not pretend that I know what the chemical reaction is only that it can happen. As a side note MS70 is basically a strong detergent and I have in a few instances seen a similar reaction when only using common dish soap, usually not as dramatic as with MS70.

The other thing I have noticed is that most of the coins I've used to experiment with (I have all of them) have changed in the years afterwards. In general the surfaces have become more dull and the colors have faded and a few have become brown again, I did most of this experimentation over ten years ago.

keets

an underlying point that I'm taking away from the years of discussing this is clear --- the surface and color of copper/bronze coins can be manipulated. it can be made to look red or more red, various shades of blue or purple and, if need be, a deeper shade of Brown. personally, I am not experienced enough or smart enough to always be able to tell the differences on what is legitimate and what is manipulated. all the same, I am not willing to "trust" the opinions of those who are heavily invested in the market(s) for copper/bronze coins.

as for claims of Provenance being an indicator of legitimate color, that is a good thing but it requires too much Faith from me. to be in one owners possession for 40 years, another owners possession for 40 and then submitted in a sealed flip doesn't reassure me that nothing was ever done to a coin.

Desert Moon

Desert Moon

@oih82w8 said:
My 09 V.D.B. has been described as appearing to have been treated with MS70 in a previous thread.

Probably, but all it did was strip off the patina and leave the underlying toning more exposed so now we see the nice colors.......

Best, SH

Desert Moon

@MFeld said:
There are a number of highly expert collectors, dealers and graders who are not "fools" and who don't believe that the MS70 issue is a myth or urban legend.

I would love to see their proof for the myth. Here is an example where I used MS70, changed the copper to blue. It did not keep, because it was a volatile component that over 3 years, volatilized into the atmosphere. So sure, if the right stuff is on the surfaces, MS70 will turn a copper coin blue, but it won't stay, don't confuse that with the toning in the OP, or have the highly expert collectors show they can generate such toning with MS70 and keep it there for many years. Proof is needed to keep the myth going.

Edited to add: Note that the blue below is very un-natural and nothing close the the toning in the OP that can be revealing by stripping off overlying patina.............

Best, SH

keets

spacehayduke, the point I have stressed is that the results obtained by one person(you in this case) aren't the results everyone gets. for that reason it is important for us all to accept that there is no absolute regarding the use of MS70. I suppose that since I don't show photographic "proof" that I can be discounted and not believed, but my experience is still valid. the results vary.

lkeigwin

FWIW, in the OP, "upgradable" should be "ungradable", and "PCGS Certainly Verification" should be "PCGS Cert Verification". Autocorrect errors, probably.
Lance.

CircCam

Did someone say blue toned Indians?

I do wonder how they’d react to an acetone soak, but I’m not cracking them to find out. I’m in the camp that it can be natural and can also be artificially done.

Mark

@spacehayduke Re the coins you photographed: After 2014, did you by chance use MS70 on them again? I think it would be interesting to see if the coloring was repeatable.

MFeld

@spacehayduke said:

@MFeld said:
There are a number of highly expert collectors, dealers and graders who are not "fools" and who don't believe that the MS70 issue is a myth or urban legend.

I would love to see their proof for the myth. Here is an example where I used MS70, changed the copper to blue. It did not keep, because it was a volatile component that over 3 years, volatilized into the atmosphere. So sure, if the right stuff is on the surfaces, MS70 will turn a copper coin blue, but it won't stay, don't confuse that with the toning in the OP, or have the highly expert collectors show they can generate such toning with MS70 and keep it there for many years. Proof is needed to keep the myth going.

Edited to add: Note that the blue below is very un-natural and nothing close the the toning in the OP that can be revealing by stripping off overlying patina.............

Best, SH

If the use of MS70 merely brings out (blue) color which was already there, but not previously apparent, shouldn’t the color remain visible over time? Regardless, to me, the bottom line is that different coins produce different results and that some blue copper coins became that way on their own, via storage, while others did not. And that it would defy logic to proclaim all of them natural or all of them unnatural.

keets

If the use of MS70 merely brings out (blue) color which was already there, but not previously apparent, shouldn’t the color remain visible over time?

Mark, I almost posted the same thing but stopped short.

it is a really weird phenomenon. on one hand, the MS70 is claimed to be a detergent which removes dirt, grease and debris to reveal color which has been hidden. on the other, once the MS70 is removed the color goes away. that makes my head spin if I think about it too much.

my results, although not scientific by any means, are more simple: sometimes when I apply MS70 nothing happens, other times there is a dramatic color change. in both cases, when the MS70 is removed the color stays the same.

Walkerguy21D

These were treated with MS 70...,I don’t have Before photos, but trust me that they did not have any vibrant tone like they do now:

Elcontador

Another matter raised here is that some chemicals can change a coin's toning for only a period of time, and then the coin reverts to its original color. This is why PCGS eliminated their guarantee on RD copper about 9 or 10 years ago. Don Willis told me that PCGS was getting too many doctored RD Lincoln Cents which turned in holder six or eight weeks after being slabbed, and had to write too many checks as a result. The AT job was so good, that it fooled some of the best of the best.

Zoins

@Elcontador said:
Another matter raised here is that some chemicals can change a coin's toning for only a period of time, and then the coin reverts to its original color. This is why PCGS eliminated their guarantee on RD copper about 9 or 10 years ago. Don Willis told me that PCGS was getting too many doctored RD Lincoln Cents which turned in holder six or eight weeks after being slabbed, and had to write too many checks as a result. The AT job was so good, that it fooled some of the best of the best.

Good to know. Were there any consequences for the doctors or the dealers that sold them?

lkeigwin

This came out of the laundry today. Sorry...I don't know what it looked like going in. Random change.

My wife said she used Tide HE. "Get amazing results while saving water and electricity with Tide HE detergent."

Soon to be on ebay as a BIN $20.
Lance.

MFeld

@lkeigwin said:
This came out of the laundry today. Sorry...I don't know what it looked like going in. Random change.

My wife said she used Tide HE. "Get amazing results while saving water and electricity with Tide HE detergent."

Soon to be on ebay as a BIN $20.
Lance.

Without knowing the history of the coin, my guess is that prior to being exposed to Tide, it appeared brown, but that its true blue color was subsequently revealed.😉

cameonut2011

@Elcontador said:
Another matter raised here is that some chemicals can change a coin's toning for only a period of time, and then the coin reverts to its original color. This is why PCGS eliminated their guarantee on RD copper about 9 or 10 years ago. Don Willis told me that PCGS was getting too many doctored RD Lincoln Cents which turned in holder six or eight weeks after being slabbed, and had to write too many checks as a result. The AT job was so good, that it fooled some of the best of the best.

If true (I have no reason to doubt you), this is profoundly disturbing. It is a grading service's job to detect AT. When some collectors expressed dismay with the copper color guarantee change as applied to older coins either Hall or Willis (I forget which) posted that it applied only to color changes that didn't change the grade. If a coin is AT then the grade necessarily changes from a straight grade to a details grade.

cameonut2011

@lkeigwin said:
This came out of the laundry today. Sorry...I don't know what it looked like going in. Random change.

My wife said she used Tide HE. "Get amazing results while saving water and electricity with Tide HE detergent."

Soon to be on ebay as a BIN $20.
Lance.

I wonder if the surfactants used in MS70 overlap with those of Tide.

cameonut2011

MS70 contains sulfonated salts (probably as surfactants) per the MSDS, so there is a source of sulfur that could react under the right conditions.

http://www.translinesupply.com/PDF/MDSSHEETS/MS707530.MSDS.pdf