@7Jaguars said:
This is interesting in that I have used MS70 experimentally on US and GB copper and bronze and have many times gotten such results very similar to the 1885 above.
In clarification to my comment on using MS70, I used MS70 to turn a RD coin BN blue without results. I did not use MS70 make a BN or RB coin blue. I do not question that MS70 might restore a coin by removing overlying toning. Even Rick Snow has talked about this possibility. But the question is: Does the MS70 cause blue toning, or doe it just remove an overlying level of toning.
The coin that I posted could very well have been enhanced with a dip, but the blue color was not created by the dip. Thus, at one time this coin was blue as in the TrueView and that color was restored. And this would be consistent with Rick Snow's experience.
You can turn some BN and RB coins blue, but you cannot turn a RD coin blue with MS70.
I have an 1883 PR67BN that is very subtlely toned, but may be enhanced if dipped in acetone or MS70 . One of these days I will submit to PCGS for restoration with acetone or MS70 to see if the color becomes more vibrant. I will post when I do. Definitely not going to crack a PR67 and dip it Would sell the coin as it is a duplicate but am very interested in the result. Better yet maybe Rick will submit the coin to prove his point?
Many IHC proofs, and other copper coins, have been dipped to make them RD for a substantial increase in value. I have submitted many RD RAW IHC's and Lincoln PR to PCGS and they are ALL returned Questionable Color. Perhaps there is good money in dipping BN and RB copper and your result is blue, you just hit a home run.
All of the copper that I have ever submitted as BN or RB has ALWAYS straight graded..
Don Willis told me personally when PCGS limited its guarantee on RD copper because coin docs were sending in recently made RD Lincoln Cents raw which turned after a month or two. When graded, the graders couldn't tell the difference between one of these and an original, and that PCGS got tired of paying out on them when they turned.
The blue PF IHC matter goes back I think a good 20 years. A former forum member made them, they were slabbed for awhile, and then they weren't slabbed any longer.
Rick Snow has been consistent in his thoughts on the matter, while other knowledgeable individuals showed with examples that the only natural toning on PF IHCs was on the devices, and this was caused by the mint tissue in which they were wrapped. The experts on either side of this seemed to know what they were talking about, and the matter remained unsettled. As both of them know more about RD copper than I do, and I don't have a chemistry background, I decided to avoid the blue PF IHCs.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@Off_Cent_er said:
Decided to log in and show mine. I bought this in a PCGS slab with questionable color. NGC straight graded it after I cracked it out. I don't care how it happened, it looks damn good IMO.
Gee, I saw a thread where there’s a guy who draws phenomenal looking artwork of coins. Why not have him draw some pictures of some key date coins, and include those as part of your coin collection? I’m sure they’ll look damn good too, in your opinion! 😆
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Off_Cent_er said:
Decided to log in and show mine. I bought this in a PCGS slab with questionable color. NGC straight graded it after I cracked it out. I don't care how it happened, it looks damn good IMO.
Gee, I saw a thread where there’s a guy who draws phenomenal looking artwork of coins. Why not have him draw some pictures of some key date coins, and include those as part of your coin collection? I’m sure they’ll look damn good too, in your opinion! 😆
Steve
Gee you don't believe I own this coin?
My laptop with the same 1916 with the PCGS lable. You want a newspaper to prove the date too??
Hey, I was just having a little fun at you being OK with a coin that one TPG said had questionable color, despite the other saying it was ok. It never entered my mind that maybe you didn’t own the coin, as I figured for sure you did.
Sorry for my sense of humor, but no accusations were on my mind.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I did an experiment a couple of years back on 8 wheat cents. Only the one below ended up with an interesting color. The others either didn't change in a meaningful way or just looked awful. This coin below was dipped in acetone first, which removed the gunk in front of Lincoln's nose, then MS70. My conclusion was that it would certainly be possible for someone who knows what they are doing to create attractively toned blue/purple coins.
@scotty4449 said:
I did an experiment a couple of years back on 8 wheat cents. Only the one below ended up with an interesting color. The others either didn't change in a meaningful way or just looked awful. This coin below was dipped in acetone first, which removed the gunk in front of Lincoln's nose, then MS70. My conclusion was that it would certainly be possible for someone who knows what they are doing to create attractively toned blue/purple coins.
But don't many of the champions of the blue/purple color state that the application of MS70 merely uncovers color that's already present? If so, perhaps the color was already on that 1957-D cent, but you couldn't see it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
About 10-12 years ago I was gifted a group of 20 coins in 2x2 cardboard. The coins were split between 1957 and 1957-D Lincoln’s.
All 20 had the same look of golden brown with good luster. I sent a couple in for grading, one came back 64BN and the other 65BN. the MS65BN is posted below.
After reading this thread in 2020 I bought some MS70 in order to experiment with a couple of the 1957’s from the gifted group. I tried one of each, a 1957 and a 1957-D. The result of the two mints was startling…….both turned colorful, but not the same color. One turned a very pretty pink while the other turned a beautiful blue. In fact the blue one turned into an almost exact copy of a 1947-D I had bought a couple of years earlier. I’ll post all three for comparison. Remember that both 1957 Lincoln’s started out the same color as the first one posted above.
Oh wow, you really did recreate the look of that 1947-D! I get the impression, based on some of the responses I have seen, that toning like this wasn't widely seen, then it suddenly started showing up everywhere. Is that a true statement? If so, when did this start happening? Elcontador indicates this started around 20 years ago.
@scotty4449 said:
Oh wow, you really did recreate the look of that 1947-D! I get the impression, based on some of the responses I have seen, that toning like this wasn't widely seen, then it suddenly started showing up everywhere. Is that a true statement? If so, when did this start happening? Elcontador indicates this started around 20 years ago.
I wouldn't say "suddenly" or "everywhere", but roughly 20 years ago sounds about right.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have never used "MS-70" or "Blue Ribbon" or anything like that. I have only used acetone (on occasion).
In my limited experience using acetone solvents on copper, when starting out with a red-brown or brown coin, I have noticed that:
In some cases, once the oil is stripped off the coin, the overall color will be more bluish in appearance than it was before.
Applying some finger (or other) oil to the surface again will change the color back to where it started before the application of solvent.
A thin layer of transparent oil on the surface will change the refractive/reflective properties, and that alone can cause the apparent color to be different.
Ugh, why do I post if no one's going to read it..these are the ones to which I was referring..
all PF67BNs except the 1916; none are CAC; the one's that were auctioned did not do well considering the condition rarity; don't stare too long or you'll mess up your rods and cones.
I have seen quite a range of colors as per some of the above on copper coins. I hesitate to make too many comments as there seems to be a sensitive lot on these boards. However, I personally do not subscribe to the "uncovering" theory. I'm for oxidation as there are some rather unusual oxidations with organic chemicals that are not the standard sulfide, chloride or oxides. Even acetone breaks down to many differing oxidizing agents that will react with "native" metal such as the predominately copper alloy of the pre-plated coins we now have.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Comments
In clarification to my comment on using MS70, I used MS70 to turn a RD coin BN blue without results. I did not use MS70 make a BN or RB coin blue. I do not question that MS70 might restore a coin by removing overlying toning. Even Rick Snow has talked about this possibility. But the question is: Does the MS70 cause blue toning, or doe it just remove an overlying level of toning.
The coin that I posted could very well have been enhanced with a dip, but the blue color was not created by the dip. Thus, at one time this coin was blue as in the TrueView and that color was restored. And this would be consistent with Rick Snow's experience.
You can turn some BN and RB coins blue, but you cannot turn a RD coin blue with MS70.
I have an 1883 PR67BN that is very subtlely toned, but may be enhanced if dipped in acetone or MS70 . One of these days I will submit to PCGS for restoration with acetone or MS70 to see if the color becomes more vibrant. I will post when I do. Definitely not going to crack a PR67 and dip it Would sell the coin as it is a duplicate but am very interested in the result. Better yet maybe Rick will submit the coin to prove his point?
OINK
I will add this:
Many IHC proofs, and other copper coins, have been dipped to make them RD for a substantial increase in value. I have submitted many RD RAW IHC's and Lincoln PR to PCGS and they are ALL returned Questionable Color. Perhaps there is good money in dipping BN and RB copper and your result is blue, you just hit a home run.
All of the copper that I have ever submitted as BN or RB has ALWAYS straight graded..
OINK
Don Willis told me personally when PCGS limited its guarantee on RD copper because coin docs were sending in recently made RD Lincoln Cents raw which turned after a month or two. When graded, the graders couldn't tell the difference between one of these and an original, and that PCGS got tired of paying out on them when they turned.
The blue PF IHC matter goes back I think a good 20 years. A former forum member made them, they were slabbed for awhile, and then they weren't slabbed any longer.
Rick Snow has been consistent in his thoughts on the matter, while other knowledgeable individuals showed with examples that the only natural toning on PF IHCs was on the devices, and this was caused by the mint tissue in which they were wrapped. The experts on either side of this seemed to know what they were talking about, and the matter remained unsettled. As both of them know more about RD copper than I do, and I don't have a chemistry background, I decided to avoid the blue PF IHCs.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Decided to log in and show mine. I bought this in a PCGS slab with questionable color. NGC straight graded it after I cracked it out.
I don't care how it happened, it looks damn good IMO.
These pics were taken after the crack out.
Gee, I saw a thread where there’s a guy who draws phenomenal looking artwork of coins. Why not have him draw some pictures of some key date coins, and include those as part of your coin collection? I’m sure they’ll look damn good too, in your opinion! 😆
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Gee you don't believe I own this coin?
My laptop with the same 1916 with the PCGS lable. You want a newspaper to prove the date too??
Hey, I was just having a little fun at you being OK with a coin that one TPG said had questionable color, despite the other saying it was ok. It never entered my mind that maybe you didn’t own the coin, as I figured for sure you did.
Sorry for my sense of humor, but no accusations were on my mind.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I did an experiment a couple of years back on 8 wheat cents. Only the one below ended up with an interesting color. The others either didn't change in a meaningful way or just looked awful. This coin below was dipped in acetone first, which removed the gunk in front of Lincoln's nose, then MS70. My conclusion was that it would certainly be possible for someone who knows what they are doing to create attractively toned blue/purple coins.
But don't many of the champions of the blue/purple color state that the application of MS70 merely uncovers color that's already present? If so, perhaps the color was already on that 1957-D cent, but you couldn't see it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That being said, here is my blue toner!
I always wonder, IF this toning was created, did the MS70 not hit the red patches below liberty and above right of the shield?
About 10-12 years ago I was gifted a group of 20 coins in 2x2 cardboard. The coins were split between 1957 and 1957-D Lincoln’s.
All 20 had the same look of golden brown with good luster. I sent a couple in for grading, one came back 64BN and the other 65BN. the MS65BN is posted below.
After reading this thread in 2020 I bought some MS70 in order to experiment with a couple of the 1957’s from the gifted group. I tried one of each, a 1957 and a 1957-D. The result of the two mints was startling…….both turned colorful, but not the same color. One turned a very pretty pink while the other turned a beautiful blue. In fact the blue one turned into an almost exact copy of a 1947-D I had bought a couple of years earlier. I’ll post all three for comparison. Remember that both 1957 Lincoln’s started out the same color as the first one posted above.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Oh wow, you really did recreate the look of that 1947-D! I get the impression, based on some of the responses I have seen, that toning like this wasn't widely seen, then it suddenly started showing up everywhere. Is that a true statement? If so, when did this start happening? Elcontador indicates this started around 20 years ago.
I wouldn't say "suddenly" or "everywhere", but roughly 20 years ago sounds about right.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Fodder for conversation.
Those don't appear to exhibit the blue/purple being discussed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have never used "MS-70" or "Blue Ribbon" or anything like that. I have only used acetone (on occasion).
In my limited experience using acetone solvents on copper, when starting out with a red-brown or brown coin, I have noticed that:
In some cases, once the oil is stripped off the coin, the overall color will be more bluish in appearance than it was before.
Applying some finger (or other) oil to the surface again will change the color back to where it started before the application of solvent.
A thin layer of transparent oil on the surface will change the refractive/reflective properties, and that alone can cause the apparent color to be different.
Ugh, why do I post if no one's going to read it..these are the ones to which I was referring..
all PF67BNs except the 1916; none are CAC; the one's that were auctioned did not do well considering the condition rarity; don't stare too long or you'll mess up your rods and cones.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
I have seen quite a range of colors as per some of the above on copper coins. I hesitate to make too many comments as there seems to be a sensitive lot on these boards. However, I personally do not subscribe to the "uncovering" theory. I'm for oxidation as there are some rather unusual oxidations with organic chemicals that are not the standard sulfide, chloride or oxides. Even acetone breaks down to many differing oxidizing agents that will react with "native" metal such as the predominately copper alloy of the pre-plated coins we now have.
Well, just Love coins, period.