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What would encourage individual collectors to explore die varieties?
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
All are aware of a few die varieties, but what would have to occur to get you interested in a specific series? What would be the limitations?
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Cherrypick only. Never pay a premium.
Big money.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Cherry picking for big windfalls. It's why we have gotten all of these annoying posts about “doubled dies.” They push this stuff on U-tube, and people think that their parking lot mutilated is the next 1955 doubled die.
Basically this but I have paid a premium on a few rare occasions.
I am a bit lonely over here, but www.doubledimes.com has been keeping me out of trouble for the past few years.
and this is what making coin collecting fun for me. In this age, anyone with a credit card and an ebay account can put together pretty much any set of U.S. coins they want to. Where's the challenge in that?
Finding unattributed die varieties of my 20 cent pieces has been difficult and rewarding. And knowing that I have one of something that nobody else in the world has is kind of cool.
I just cant bear to think of what my grading costs will be if ever PCGS decides to recognize BF numbers for these things.
I personally like errors that you can see in a thumbnail image
Usually I cherrypick them on ebay.
The photos are usually good enough to do this for what I look for.
The key factor for me is a sufficient number of finds per hour spent.
Finds = identified variety and reasonable price.
Things that would help this are:
Of course you can "explore" without buying. I collect a lot of photos from the web and the asking price does not deter me.
If anyone is going to encourage collectors to explore or
go thru change/rolls for Die Varieties, please make sure
(I know you said 'Collectors') that they have some basic
numismatic knowledge.
You can't believe what is out there now - because of
UTube and various sites, the number of novice
'cherrypickers' is at an all-time high - most are getting
totally incorrect info from these sites, and even having
a CherryPickers Guide with a Photo of 'their' coin, they
cannot see that it's not close to the photo in the book.
Via phone, via email, via coin shows - it's really bad and
very very frustrating that they believe what they think
they see or know about a coin, and won't believe numerous
error collectors or dealers when they're told that their
rare Doubled Die is ejection/mechanical doubling, or the
'rare, extra letters or designs' on a coin are just stains or
damage.
The stories I could tell ......
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
They are a major TPGS. What do they do now? Why not buy one of the low cost references for 20c coins and send it to them. Then they would probably do them.
One possible problem that we never had in the good old days is we didn't need to have an IT guy update the labels we could print. As soon as a new reference was published we could adopt the "new" attributions if we wished. If a new discovery was made, we could certify it immediately. I'll bet that sooner or later the BF #'s will be used at all the other services.
I dunno. I don’t think it’s easy to cultivate an interest in this. If I found a 1955 DDO in pocket change I’d sell it so fast your head would spin.
Varieties? No, thanks. I was about to answer the "What would it take?" question with "A gun to the back of the head" but realized that would provide an easy way out.
No offense to variety collectors intended (honestly), but I can't think of many things that would kill my interest in collecting faster than being subjected to the minutiae involved. As I said, JMO.
I wouldn't eliminate this stuff, but it is vast minutiae, and it is not my cup of tea.
I know that some places will slab them using the proper BF numbers, but for now, stickers and sharpies will have to suffice for me
1921 P/D/S Morgan VAMS are the best area to find fun coins (lots of cuds/ die breaks etc.) Not High priced .
Because most videos I have seen are executed poorly and have very misleading titles and information. I have watched a few and was upset
I’ve started collecting seated dime varieties because there aren’t too many more beyond the date/MM set I already have. It’s challenging though.
I think starting off new collectors with minor varieties would be hard.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Already there. Varieties are the spice of life for early Large Cent collectors.
Smitten with DBLCs.
I think I want to collect to many different coins and dates already to get bogged down in die varieties. Trying to get a date set of Lincoln's is enough fun for me at this point. I'm also really new to collecting with a very limited budget too though. Maybe 30 years from now if I'd completed my other sets I'd start being interested in these too.
But who knows. I change my mind so often it's ridiculous! :-P
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
I think the longer one spends in a particular series their knowledge of that series appreciates accordingly and that can often lead to greater interest and collection of the varieties. Of course all of that is useless without the money to buy some of those very expensive varieties.
NGC, PCGS, ANACS, and ICG were all gifted the double dimes book by John and me when it was first published. Also, the updated reference is electronic and free.
I have only seen BF numbers used by ANACS thus far.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Astrorat brings up an interest8ng side point: TPGs seem to be far behind in their willingness to apply new information to coins, patterns and other numismatic materials. This is a problem Zoins and others hoping to expand the so-called dollar realm will encounter, and I can imagine the frustrations of authors when they find their up-dated scholarship ignored. (I've see a similar situation with the few variety books I've written including Saint-Gaudens double eagles, WW-II Pattern and Experimental pieces, and Inco & Gould Private experimental pieces.
Opinion:
My personal conundrum with varieties is that many of them are too trivial to be worth the time to look for. Maybe this is highly biased by experience with Van Allen-Mallis (VAM) varieties where the numbers and letters and sub-letters long ago exceeded my tolerance for numbness. Sadly (for me....?), I look at most VAM discussion messages and my brain falls asleep. I know that is counter productive. I know there is much to gain. I know there is much enjoyment potential there. And, yet, the hippocampus, neocortex, amygdala, and prefrontal cortex all put on their sleeping caps and ZZZZZzzzzzzzz.
Hard to appreciate large cents without at least some interest in die varieties. And yes I’ve paid a premium for some of them.
Good reference books can create interest for die varieties, along with organizations such as EAC and the JRCS. With interest come higher prices, sometimes into six figures for well circulated, extremely rare varieties.
For bust-era coinage, die varieties can be a natural progression into a series. The limitations are that die variety specialists collect in lower average grade, and it takes patience, as some work on a series for a lifetime - RIP Mr. Half Dime.
For myself, it was a quest to learn everything about a series, most die varieties were known but hub varieties were not known in DBHE half dollars, it was interesting to identify and write about the master die and hubs in the series. Most rewarding was to research and write a book about the life of the man who engraved these great coins.
For me the varieties came after my basic set was nearly complete. I think it started because I wanted the quest to keep going. I found many of the varieties to be quite interesting and it was an additional education. Sort of like moving from your bachelors to your masters, LOL....
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Agreed, the quest to keep going is a motivator for me as well.
I have avidly searched for varieties in nearly all series since 1992 but mostly Lincoln Cents now.
I love varieties and am glad that most don't, because then it would be even tougher to find them.....but easier to sell them.....hmmm
Why settle for the ordinary...when can have extraordinary!
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Again, within the early Large Cent context, if collecting die varieties isn’t enough, there is then the pull of die states... Try explaining that to a non-coin geek...
Smitten with DBLCs.
"What would encourage individual collectors to explore die varieties?"
I fell in love with the Capped Bust half dime design not long after I fell into coin collecting. Something about that design at that size really floats my boat. To collect on a basic level they are one of the less difficult series with no real rarities or keys to speak of and a full collection only being a handful of coins. Disappointment set in when I realized that as I wanted to collect them in earnest. This forum, and 3 or 4 very helpful/friendly/brilliant/welcoming half dime enthusiasts, introduced me to the wonder that is Bust half dime collecting by die marriage, variety and state. This method of study turned collecting these tiny works of wonder from a mere flash in the pan for me to a complete fascination. It's afforded me the opportunity to fully appreciate not only the coin but the history behind it, people that made it, processes involved in making it, nuances in the life progression of the equipment used to make it and the people that study and collect it both past and present. Simply put, collecting by die variety had turned something that likely would have been a passing phase for me into a lifelong hobby that brings me untold amounts of joy and happiness. Even in times when buying coins isn't feasible the books, journals and study of the series and its intricacies offers plenty of entertainment.
I completely recommend collecting by die variety, regardless of the series.
I've been heavily into varieties for 30 years and cherrypicking since the early sixties but mostly just the "big stuff." I used to have a complete set of the Washington 25c major doubled dies in AU and Mint State and have cherried all the significant Buffalo 5c with the exception of the 1915 DDO 01 and the 1916 DDO 01. I was able to purchase most of my proof Buffs with the money I made cherrypicking tho I cherried several of those as circulation strikes.
All in all it's been a very rewarding undertaking for me. And lots of fun, too!
Varieties are interesting to see here, when pictures are posted. Aside from major DD's though, it is not an area of interest for me....I did add the Morgan CC/O variety to my series... and some other MM varieties, i.e. the Buff D/D/D/S....The variety has to have a unique appearance to capture my interest. Cheers, RickO
In order for someone to get into it for success in the long haul, and not just the quick buck, they have to find varieties to be something that enriches their collecting experience. This means they're starting out with a solid base of knowledge in what they're collecting. Without the basics, none of it will make much sense.
There can then be several reasons to go into varieties, but the main one is wanting to apply a fine attention to detail to a different challenge within a series which with one is already familiar. If you don't feel the need to do that, then don't go into varieties. If you do, then putting together well-established sets of varieties, whether complete variety sets by series or long-established lists like the Top 100 Morgan VAMs, can be very rewarding. In the VAM community, some people have done studies of a particular date to try and determine all the die marriages there are, and the manner in which dies were paired for that year. They do this because it enriches their collecting experience, and they learn a lot in the process, and not because there's a financial windfall involved. It also does more to correct the record regarding varieties cataloged for a particular date than any other effort, and this benefits everyone in the long run.
When I teach the Morgan Dollar Variety class at the ANA Summer Seminar, one of the first things I tell people is that of the 5000 identified die marriages cataloged as VAMs, almost nobody cares about over 4000 of them. Starting with a smaller scope comprising the more impressive and/or valuable varieties to see whether or not it's something for you is less intimidating and more likely to lead to enjoying the hobby.
Finally, at the ANA show this August, I'm doing a short talk about the kinds of insight you can gain into a series by studying varieties. It has very little to do with making lots of money and more to do with gaining knowledge.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Aside - My initial post deliberately made no reference to money, profit, or other skewing factors; just numismatic enjoyment and learning.
Yes. Something to do after finding the basic coins for a series. https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/1165
Wow!
Impressive first post!
Learning something more about a series after identifying those challenging mintmarks.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Perhaps when common date silver coins from the 30's, 40's, and 50's start selling for well over 100K!
HHHHHHhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaa! Wow, I have the highest graded_________________. That's nice. Now you'll need to name it. LOL.
My own interest in collecting
draped bust quarters and halves by die variety and major die state resulted from trying to find a single example of each for a type set as a youth from local coin shops... no one ever had any at all... in any condition.
Enter ebay two decades later and the chance to not only collect by date and major (redbook ) variety but to cherry rare ones with minor Problems because no one bothered to look them up and find its Rare or perhaps even Not find them in the reference book..
A roll of raw draped bust halves and a roll of quarters, all subtly different because the dies were a
Hand Cut over 200 years ago, most in original good to fine, is a very interesting thing... to some.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Nothing, except perhaps colonials or early copper, I could get into New Jersey varieties for example because differences tend to be pretty dramatic. Same with very early large cents and 1/2 cents. More modern and dramatic varieties are interesting to me as curiousities but I wouldn't delve into them or collect them. Just me.
Return to die marriage differences.
It works wonders for early bust material. They are all interesting, many coins within a single date will have significantly different looks to them.
Do the same today and viola!
Literally nothing would do it for me. Since I understand you are asking generally, here is my take on this subject:
One: The most widely collected US series have mintages which are so large, each data/MM must have hundreds if not thousands. Of these series, I'm only aware of US moderns being widely collected predominantly at or near face value. Exception seems to be Morgan dollar VAMS plus those listed in the most popular references such as the Red Book..
Two: US die variety collecting is concentrated in early federal coinage and Capped Bust halves. These coins have a (very) high preference plus many are short (the date run, not the number of varieties) which seems to increase collector motivation to attempt it.
Three: Some series are already too long or many of the coins are too scarce as a generic date where hardly any collectors will even see the point of bothering with it. Liberty Seated dimes, quarters and halves plus Liberty Head gold fit this description. This also applies to many non-US series, such all I have collected since 1998. The series aren't too long but I can't even complete my current series at all, as I can't find many of the coins even in low circulated grades.
Four: Outside of cherry picking mostly at FV, I expect the internet to reduce the appeal of this collecting even further for most (not all) series in the future, despite the current low interest.
I like @Gladiator started my Bust Dimes by year then moved to major varieties. Now I am down to needing 3 to having all 123 in the series by JR#. Sure is fun!
Well to me I started out collecting coins by searching rolls to find wheat pennies and trying to find them all in bank rolls. This was in the late 70's and it was very difficult to find early date pennies. But the search was the fun in collecting.
Today with eBay you can complete an entire set without really any trouble. But collecting and finding die varieties is like searching through bank rolls. It is very time consuming, but when you find one it is a great thrill. I have also learned more about numismatics collecting die varieties than I ever would just buying coins off eBay.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
I used to collect VAMs. Quit 25+ years ago because my eye sight was slowly failing.
When it comes to U.S. coins I collect quarter sized coins or larger. By date. If you need
a magnifying glass to validate a variety, you will also have to use said glass to find a
collector who might buy the coin and maybe there will be a small profit. The rest of my
opinion will go unsaid for the sake of politeness and Forum diplomacy.
More cataloging. In the area of So-Called Dollars, many die varieties are not cataloged or recognized by the popular reference. The new references by Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder catalog varieties so as they get more popular, so will the varieties.
Here's one I discovered a while back:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987131/new-so-called-dollar-variety-discovery-alaska-yukon-pacific-exposition#latest
Roger
I have collected buffalo nickels, among other series, all of my life. Initially I was only aware of the 1918/7-d and 1937-d three legged nickels as they were in the Redbook and some albums had holes for these two varieties. With the advent of the Cherrypickers guide to Rare Die Varieties and also book on buffalo nickel abraded dies by Ron Pope, I became aware of many more. Plus in the early 90ies many of these new varieties were available to find. Found may 1930 5 legged buffaloes,
a few 1935 doubled reverse die buffs, and even a 1913 type one three and half legged buffalo in MS60 a few years ago.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
With the US twenty-cent piece series, it was just plain fun to search through the coins whenever I could find them and look for die varieties that were not reported previously. At some point, enough information was gathered that a reference seemed to be the logical next step to share the what was found.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
That’s impressive.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Tibor - "If you need a magnifying glass to validate a variety, you will also have to use said glass to find a collector who might buy the coin..."
That's both funny and insightful !
I agree that minor varieties are quite boring. I don't mind looking for something interesting with a 10x glass but some of this stuff you need 20x AND experience to spot. Once coins get into circulation I generally don't seek them at all unless they can be easily seen. I especially like like varieties that aren't too tough like the '43/2 5c or the '74 DDO 50c. Encouraging collecting of such coins can exp[and interest AND enhance enjoyment for many collectors. Grading the coins and adding slots for more popular issues would help and putting more in the price guides would as well. Price discovery can be difficult in some instances.
On brand new coins I do like even the most insignificant varieties since insights can be gleaned about how coins are moved and released by watching them. To each his own.
I can certainly understand why specialists would have a lot of interest in all die varieties in their specific series.