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ANACS Slab by Generation Info

86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
edited February 12, 2024 12:25PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I would like to start a discussion about ANACS slabs. I've been working on a collection of slabs starting with one of each type of standard slab from PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. Thanks to Conder101 and his posts on NGC and PCGS's museum of slabs I believe I've got those two figured out but it has been difficult finding many details on ANACS slabs after the photo certs. What I've done has been to scour the internet, chatboards, market places, etc for ANACS slabs and their history and have come up with 13 unique ANACS slabs (labels) beginning with the ANA slab. I've estimated dates and added info when I could find some. In order to help myself as well as anyone else collecting by generation I created a set with a gallery, linked below. I would appreciate any comments or history anyone has on ANACS slabs, besides Robert Paul's photo cert research which I have. Any suggestions, corrections, or comments on what I've posted in my set with ANACS, NGC or PCGS or any additional information on what I've posted in my set would be very much appreciated. Please read my set description before clicking the gallery tab to understand my reasoning for numbering the way I did.

ANACS Generations ONLY
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Y_6cj6X2v_ZbO4NrqlRLysVeJO1IgoqnAA51ErVhLf8/edit?usp=sharing

PCGS/NGC/ANACS Generations
https://oldslabholders.com/

Also, I recall reading a post once that said that there was another variety/generation of ANACS photo certs not listed in Robert Paul's history, does anyone know anything about that?

Lastly, I know that ANACS is not as well loved as PCGS or NGC but I love the early slabs and photo certs and feel like they should get the attention they deserve so if this post or my set listing convinces even one person to save an old holder from "crack out" then I've done my civic duty to the coin collecting community.

Thank you all in advance.

«134

Comments

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting idea, I'll look for some of my 'oldies'.

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The SWH look good as far as you've gone.

    For the physical SWH slab, there are two sizes: the smaller SWH and the larger SWH (a couple of MM difference). In my records, it looks like there was some overlap (I have at least one smaller SWH with a cert# larger than the smallest cert# of a larger SWH).

    Of the smaller SWH, under ANA ownership there is an ANA in the inside of the front shell, under Amos Press ownership an A.

    When Amos press bought ANA they continued using the XXnnnn labels for a while - I have a table of who did what, from memory the dual use are RE and "I forget". At some point, the XXnnnn were assigned I forget.

    The certs then switched over to all numeric NNnnnn values (there is a conversion table from XX to NN on the ANACS site). When they switched over to all numerics, they started by using the NN gaps. Thus 000001 would come AFTER the last XXnnnn. 7nnnn was the next group and then I'd have to go back to my records.

    I have three in the 000000 range, 75, 125 and 761 (IIRC),

    The reverse hologram was the gold label under ANA, then a RED A and then a GOLD A under Amos. Somewhere in my records, I started to nail down the transition, but I don't remember the #, it's not that much tighter than you have between your two.

    Continuing in time, shortly after the sale to Anderson Press, the shell switched to the slant top one in use today. Blue labels under Anderson and then the Yellow ones.

    There is also a shell w/o the slant top used for sets and TV bulk grading.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    Thanks Hemispherical, I will look into the links you provided and see if I can find anything new.

    I'd love to see if anyone else has seen/noticed the holder I've called ANACS Slab Gen 3, it is the early smaller holder and has the font and placement of Gen 2 but has all numbers replacing the letter number combo before the labels went to barcode style. As I stated in my set listing all but one I've see have been numbered from 300330-301783. Does anyone know if they can be dated based on serial number?

    BStrauss3, I've noticed that the numbers don't seem to follow an order exactly as I've seen 6 digit serial numbers with barcodes lower than on the holder that came before it. Did ANACS use numbers out of order like NGC? Any more information you think of or dig up would be appreciated.

    roadrunner, I do very much like the old ANA holder as well, so many of the coins have toned beautifully in them but I've become addicted to the photo certs in the last year and was very happy to get my hands on a type 2 cert recently for a steal in my estimation.

    Love to see some pics of anyone who would like to share them of the early holders.

  • Eric_BabulaEric_Babula Posts: 413 ✭✭✭✭

    My only Photo Cert...sorry about the pics - quickly taken w/ cell phone on the kitchen table. I haven't gotten into coin photography yet, but I really want to. I have a photo stand and plan to set it up soon so I can start practicing! Hope my current camera/lens is good enough. Otherwise, need to get a prime macro lens. If that doesn't work out, will have to upgrade the camera too! Yay, let's spend more money!

    Rocking my "shiny-object-syndrome"!!!

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @86Saab said:

    BStrauss3, I've noticed that the numbers don't seem to follow an order exactly as I've seen 6 digit serial numbers with barcodes lower than on the holder that came before it. Did ANACS use numbers out of order like NGC? Any more information you think of or dig up would be appreciated.

    Never heard a definitive answer, but it's quite possible. In the PhotoCert Washington DC days, they had three ledgers at a time, A, B and C with each ledger in different places in the process. So they might log a week's worth of submissions into ledger A, then move all of them to grading along with the ledger. The ledger C from finalizing would move back to submissions for the next week.

    In the turmoil of moving to Colorado Springs, nobody was sure about Ledger D, so they started with E and F (at that point they appear to be down to two).

    The original books are in the ANA Museum... I have shots some pages somewhere...

    Sometime during the late E/F phase they moved to a database, but that data is lost (locked away in an unknown format on Zip disk that are all but unreadable).

    It's not unreasonable to assume that some form of this process continued, especially as it would explain why two letter pairs were in use when ANA sold ANACS to Amos --

    ANA
    CD, EX (dual), JK, KP, LO, LP, MJ, NJ, RD, RE (dual), TR, TS, WD, WF, WR, XA (supposedly show submissions)

    Amos
    EX (dual), PG, PK, RE (dual), SC, SX, WE, ZD

    Amos#s NNnnnn
    0, 7, 15, 22, 25, then 28 and follows (the XX to NN mapping goes up to 27).

    The EX handover was somewhere after EX2470 (the highest I have is EX1885 ANA)
    The RE handover was between RE2200 ANA and RE4037 Amos

    There are also a small number of odd SWH known:

    • A00005 having sold on fleaBay a few years back
      and

    • Sample5 (hand written)

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A couple of points.......

    I was told that the Washington DC A - B - C ledger books rotated on a daily basis, so that A might be used on Monday to log in coins, then used to process coins on Tuesday while coins were being logged in in B, then used to mail out coins on Wednesday while the B coins were being processed and new coins were being logged in in C. Volume was low and most coins could be processed like this. Obviously the ones that took longer to authenticate went outside this system and were processed or mailed when possible. Thursday would log in with A, Friday with B and next Monday with C.

    Colorado Springs was not sure if a D had been used so they just skipped it. It started with E-0001-A and went up from there using the prefix-suffix system used on $1 Silver Certificates, so that the F prefix would not have been used until after the E-xxxx-Z block was completed. I kind of think that the E-xxxx-O block was skipped to avoid confusion with O's and zeroes.

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I assisted ANACS with their website, and one of the pages I worked on was the cert verification page. We currently use a silhouette of the new slab style if an image of the slab is unavailable, regardless of what generation the slab actually is. I really wanted to be able to show a silhouette of the exact generation of slab the cert belongs to. The problem is, their data was moved from an old grading application database to a new one in 2005, and all of those records have the date they were moved instead of the date the order was finalized. It's a safe bet that all of the slabs prior to the 2005 move (and possibly a bit after) are the old white holders, with the move to the rounded blue ones happening in late 2005 or sometime in 2006 following the move to Austin. I've determined that there really isn't a way to determine what slab was used from looking at data in the database, so when we both have time I intend to discuss with my boss, ANACSPAUL (Paul DeFelice).

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yup, I've had a few of these over the years. Had I known it would be collectable, I would have kept them. Oh well !!! :'(

    Timbuk3
  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Actually, there is a way to figure the ledger dates - I just need to put a charge on my old tablet and move the photos to the cloud :-)

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also, to prove the bit about the overlap not being a clean cutover...

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also, from a period when I data-mined the ANACS database, the NEWEST coin year in each of the NNnnnn ranges that overlap the converted XXnnnn's is:

    [0nnnn] 589 1993
    1nnnn 210477 1992
    7nnnn 73923 1993
    15nnnn 150389 1992
    22nnnn 222255 1992
    25nnnn 253749 1992

    Thus it's reasonable to assume these were all used in 1992 or 1993.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OK... now I gotta go upstairs and shoot a pic of Sample5.
    At least I know who outbid me on A00005 :)

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    So, how does the following slab with an all number serial number styled like the XXnnnn's fit into everything? Unless I missed something aren't the full number serial numbers supposed to come with a revised label with barcode? As I mentioned in an earlier post that I've only seen a dozen or so like this one that all fall within a rather tight number range. Sorry to ask again if I missed something, I've just never seen anything posted about this seeming anomaly.

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019 1:26PM

    Not a rare slab generation, but certainly a low number ...

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @86Saab said:
    Unless I missed something aren't the full number serial numbers supposed to come with a revised label with barcode? As I mentioned in an earlier post that I've only seen a dozen or so like this one that all fall within a rather tight number range.

    What is the range you've seen? I have 303096 with the longer bar code and 298107 with the shorter one...

    (Sorry it's a terrible photo, but you can see the tel-tale square corners)

    A hypothesis is that they were changing over between two versions of the bar code and some piece of the end-to-end process wasn't ready so they left it off for a few weeks...

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    The range I've seen is 300330-301783 with an anomalous 250230. I am saving photos of them as I see them and buying them when I catch them at a decent price.

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins that's the type 1 bar code (see https://web.archive.org/web/20071026113655/http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/BarCode.aspx)

    I've gone back and checked the bar codes, and although the label is smaller, they are both 16 digits, so these are all in the 1991-2000 time frame. (2000 was when the bar code changed to 18 digits, and 1991 is the newest coin in the ANACS database in the range @86Saab was talking about).

    Here is one of the 2000+ 18 digit labels:

    Lastly, there are several different versions even of the 1991-2000 bar code, e.g. tall & short, square and rounded corner:

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • cecropiamothcecropiamoth Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BStrauss3

    Thank you for the visual proof that certs that begin with RE can be either ANA or AMOS.

    Do you have a similar image for the slabs with certs beginning EX?

    I've just been messing around a little this morning looking at information related to the alpha-numeric ANA/AMOS slabs.

    Interestingly, in my notes (taken quite some time back) I had the EX and RE certs listed as possible dual ANA/AMOS. However in my notes, I also have the NJ certs listed as possible ANA/AMOS. It seems that slabs with an NJ cert number are thought to be exclusively ANA slabs. Has anyone ever seen an AMOS slab with an NJ cert?

    @illini420 @cmerlo1 @dbrown27

    Take care,

    Jeff

  • cecropiamothcecropiamoth Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BStrauss3

    Well I guess I answered my own question. That was fast. I found an AMOS slab with an NJ cert number.

    Take a look at this closed Heritage lot from April 2019 --

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1889-1-ms65-anacs-ngc-census-2234-187-pcgs-population-2380-433-cdn-170-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcgs-ms6/a/131917-27613.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

    The coin:


    Cheers,

    Jeff/cecropiamoth

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019 6:50AM

    Nice post

  • cecropiamothcecropiamoth Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is an ANA slab with a cert number beginning with NJ. From a long ago closed Heritage auction --

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1881-s-1-ms65-anacs-ngc-census-44947-17088-pcgs-population-45480-13213-mintage-12-760-000-numismedia-wsl-price/a/131120-22201.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515


    Hope it is OK posting these HA photos here...if not, I will remove them. Just doing it for a little research purpose.

    So, I think we can conclude that NJ is now officially the 3rd letter prefix for which there are both ANA and AMOS slabs.

    Jeff

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Proof of overlap... NJ/ANA later that the known NJ/Amos

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    I don't know ANACS history like some of you but Is it possible that ANACS re-holdered some ANA slabbed coins and used the same cert number? How did ANACS handle submissions? I understand early on with the photo certs they used multiple ledgers and numbers were assigned as they received them, later did they use printed forms that could be out of order like NGC or did it work a different way?

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    During the tail end of the period of the photocerts they started using a database .

    Later on they switched to another database. That data you can find in today's database but the middle data is locked away and they never could figure out how to get it out.

    There would have been no particular reason to make the intake anything but sequential instead of mirroring the old three ledger system, but it wouldn't be the first time a computer system was implemented quote just like the old system unquote.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • cecropiamothcecropiamoth Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BStrauss3 said:
    Proof of overlap... NJ/ANA later that the known NJ/Amos

    Nice catch on the 5807 ANA with the higher number than the 5360 AMOS I located for 'NJ'.

    Now that NJ has been confirmed as consisting of both ANA & AMOS (joining previously known EX and RE) I wonder if any more of the 13 remaining 'ANA only' labels might also be dual w/ AMOS?

    That X00005 is a strange one. Anyone know the story on those?

    I have what must be a quite early show submission, XA0069. It is an 1865 2c, MS63RB, and to my eye certainly undergraded. Definitely one of the cooler ones I own.

    Take care,

    Jeff

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have one or two ANACS slabs... maybe one photo slab....will have to dig them out. They are buried in one of my storage boxes....will post them if I can get some time to find them. Cheers, RickO

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2019 10:36AM

    @cecropiamoth This one - on sale at eBay is going to mess up any hope of figuring out the cross over points...

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/223464085457


    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Somewhere in my files I have a thick folder of paperwork from ANACS circa 1989-1994ish.
    I submitted thousands of coins to them around that time.
    I would have cert #s and dates on the paperwork.
    If I can locate them I'll post a few.

  • LewLew Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    I am very interested in the ANACS small white holders.
    From the URL link in the first post (86Saab, May 16, 2019) of this discussion I have saved the description and photos of ANACS Slab Gen 1 to Gen 6.
    I am somewhat confused about insert relative to ridge along rim:
    a) The description for Gen 4 says “white insert goes under 1st ridge along rim.” The photo of obv for Gen 4 doesn’t look like the insert goes under rim.
    b) The description for Gen 5 says “The Gen 5 insert stops at ridge.” The photo for Gen 5 shows insert way above ridge.
    Does anyone have some photos that clearly show what these descriptions are referring to?

  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2019 3:18AM

    Here is a close up of what I was referring to...

  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I've definitely learned some new things.

    I would like to go back to one of my earlier questions though as I've yet to figure out or hear a theory about the slab I called "Gen 3" that fits the fact that the front label font and layout matches "Gen 2" yet the cert number would indicate that it should fall into the run with "Gen 4" even though the font and layout of "Gen 3" does not match Gen 4 even with barcode removed. I see clearly that a large overlap of cert numbers exists between "Gen 1" & "Gen 2" but that that overlap does not appear to be in large blocks but sprinkled between the two generations.

    So far I've continued searching through online auction sites, I've searched through hundreds of thousands of ANACS listings over the last couple of years and I've only cataloged 34 "Gen 3's". All but 2 "Gen 3's" have numbered from 300150-301783 with no barcode "Gen 4" labels found anywhere in that range. However I've found two "Gen 3's" outside that range, 250230 & 251935 but I have found many "Gen 4" barcode labels with cert numbers around and between those two.

    The more I dig the more questions I have! Maybe there is no answer and I will just have to live with a best guess...

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019 3:35AM

    Found this: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070113451A1
    Your Gen 7

    Note it was never issued, the application was filed by Anderson Press
    Several of the claims include an RFID chip
    Claim 23ff is a rack (not a box)

    Cited patents are the whose-who of slab patents.

    ADD: There was eventually a DESIGN patent issued for the holder: https://patents.google.com/patent/USD570112S1/en

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • LewLew Posts: 167 ✭✭✭

    Here is a Gen-3 I got a while back.
    86Saab -- Is this 78S on your list?

  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    @Lew No I didn't have that one. I will add it to my list. Thanks

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @86Saab 302155 is on fleaBay WITH the bar code for your # census

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    @BStrauss3 Thanks, I saw that gen 4 but right now I am only counting the ones I call gen 3.

    Also today I found and purchased another odd one that only just confuses the issue when it comes to ANACS's numbering system, it's cert number is 392283 and it appears to be what I call gen 6 or the last of the white holders, it may be a gen 5 but the pyramids look gold. That being said it might be the lighting or flash. If its a gen 5 at least it makes some since with Gens 2-4 having been produced from about 1991-1992 and Gen 5 starting around 1992, if it's a gen 6 then it throws it out to 1997 or later which makes no sense. Once I receive it and determine which generation it is I will revise this post. Fun stuff...

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suspect a detailed analysis of the hologram color around the cut-over will show the same kind of back & forth as has been observed for every other change over.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I really have to pull mine out

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • bob48bob48 Posts: 443 ✭✭✭

    Very good on the history of the slabs. I have learned something with the addition of "NJxxxx" for both companies. I don't have one from Amos

    I did get s/n A00058 but don't know anything about it. 1944-D 10C MS-62 but it is from ANACS

    On the photo certs the type 4, I have a note and the photo cert that on the reverse of the photo the millimeter ruler was added (like the type-5 has). Dated 11-01-82, s/n E-7627-X 1939 10C MS63/65
    OP thanks for the comment on my ANACS Photo Cert Article. here is a link if anyone would like a copy.
    https://sites.google.com/site/sampleslabbook/downloads

    thanks

    Bob

    *
  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The A000## slabs still do not show up in the ANACS database. Although work this summer by their web guy has unlocked several regions of the database that weren't returning information, those still remain mysterious.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    Well the coin came today and it's definitely the last generation white slab with the gold pyramids on the reverse. Now the 3xxxxx cert number spans 4 generations of slab from 1991-1997 or later. Also the ANACS underprint is in blue, either that or the color has changed over time.

    @BStrauss3 , is it possible that an ANACS holder sent in for a reholder would be given it's original cert number like that PCGS and NGC.

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well... it's a type 1 bar code (used up to 2000, see https://web.archive.org/web/20180916084043/http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/BarCode.aspx) so that doesn't help.

    The simplest explanation might be that ANACS had two suppliers, each of whom had slightly different molds. (In Bunnie Huang's book on manufacturing in China he makes a big point that you should own your molds so as not to get locked into a factory).

    If ANACS needed a 2nd supply source - outgrew the capacity of factory #1 or whatever - they might have arranged a second source with slightly different molds???

    Then when they needed a new supply, they called the two factories and said - when can you deliver?

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • RayboRaybo Posts: 5,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Older ANACS slabs are the best IMHO.
    I would pay a hefty price to swap my current PCGS/NGC slabs over to the "perfect ANACS slabs of the past"
    I gave this ANACS coin away some time ago....

  • 86Saab86Saab Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    @bob48 and @BStrauss3 or anyone who may know. Do you know approximately how many coins ANACS was slabbing per day or per year say at transition points, meaning when they switched from photo certs to the swh's then to the blue holders, to yellow and today or any particular time that you may have data.

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