this has become a strange thread to me, it has some thoughts from some members which just don't make sense unless it is purely about "hate" towards OBJ.
it is really impossible to compare what the Browns did in 2018 to what they may do in 2019 just because they signed one player. far too many other things will happen with the Team between now and the end of the 2019 season, as well as every other Team in the NFL who will be their opponent in 2019. one example is the changes that took place with the other three Teams in their Division. those games represent more than a third of the season. I actually don't expect the Browns to make the playoffs in 2019 and don't really think it's a good thing if they do. I think it's important that they improve, that they figure out what the Team personality is and who the Leaders are on Offense and Defense. it is important to me that above everything else they find unity as a Team and establish a feeling of what it is to win games together.
lost in all the hoopla of signing of one player and in their improvement last year is one thing, one very HUGE thing --- the Team has a new Head Coach and a new Offensive Coordinator. those changes will affect the outcome of the 2019 season far more than the addition of any single player.
I'll take your word on this. Evidently you saw him play more than I did.
I watched every game he played as a Viking.
The excitement he provided at first was fantastic. It soon started to become obvious that he wasn't really much of a "team" player, then things just got worse both on and off the field.
After about his fourth season he was pretty worthless as a part of a winning team.
His "entertainment" value was good though I guess. I would rather see boring personalities that play hard than the "diva" types.
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@JoeBanzai said:
Sounds like we are talking about RANDY MOSS! Another talented loser.
I would take Moss over OBJ any day in a heartbeat!
Same guy different name.
I remember you saying you didn't like him as a Viking. But all I remember is him going up and catching anything thrown at him.
Your buddy Romo had fantastic numbers, yet you call HIM a loser!
I get it, you saw Moss' highlights. I saw those too, I also saw all the times he dogged it when asked to go over the middle and would disappear for games if he got hit hard early.
He WAS great running a fly pattern against a 5'7" cornerback in single coverage. WOW!
He was the epitomy of a selfish player. If you worship talent over all else, he was certainly the best of all time. Moss had everything, tall, fast, great hands, he should be head and shoulders above all the others who played that position.
I wouldn't have Moss on my team EVER.
He was a quitter. Winners never quit, quitters never win.
Along these lines, I wanted to toss this out there. Looking for some objectivity on this specific subject play...
In Super Bowl 42, the Giants had that game winning drive that featuredly a completely ridiculous, one in a million helmet catch and a money fade to Burress. Then the Giants kicked off and the Pats were pinned in pretty deep with virtually no time left. I mention this all because I’m just trying to refresh the scene - for myself and everyone reading along. I think first down was a sack. Then on second down, Brady got off this beautifully thrown bomb down the far sideline, left to right on your TV. Randy Moss was in double coverage but the defenders sort of bumped each other and I always felt Moss didn’t really make a maximum effort to catch that ball. Maybe he thought he could draw a flag but I thought if he made a more sincere effort to leap and catch it, with the DB semi-collision, he takes off and the Pats win. I don’t know if that was just me or if anyone else saw it but it was sort of similar to that Cam Newton go for the fumble-not go for the fumble SuperBowl moment where I don’t kill the guy for the decision they made (they kind of teach and coach QBs NOT to go after the ball in those situations but I also do wonder why the instincts don’t kick in (see ball, get ball) and why they chose to do it that way. Obviously, I’ll watch the SB42 highlights of the game from time to time if I catch it on TV but it’s been a good while since I’ve done that.
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i still say Jarvis Landry's presence is going to play a significant role in all this. that's his LSU homie, hence i can almost guarantee that OBJ will respect any words that flow out of his mouth.
@JoeBanzai said:
Sounds like we are talking about RANDY MOSS! Another talented loser.
I would take Moss over OBJ any day in a heartbeat!
Same guy different name.
I remember you saying you didn't like him as a Viking. But all I remember is him going up and catching anything thrown at him.
Your buddy Romo had fantastic numbers, yet you call HIM a loser!
I get it, you saw Moss' highlights. I saw those too, I also saw all the times he dogged it when asked to go over the middle and would disappear for games if he got hit hard early.
He WAS great running a fly pattern against a 5'7" cornerback in single coverage. WOW!
He was the epitomy of a selfish player. If you worship talent over all else, he was certainly the best of all time. Moss had everything, tall, fast, great hands, he should be head and shoulders above all the others who played that position.
I wouldn't have Moss on my team EVER.
He was a quitter. Winners never quit, quitters never win.
Along these lines, I wanted to toss this out there. Looking for some objectivity on this specific subject play...
In Super Bowl 42, the Giants had that game winning drive that featuredly a completely ridiculous, one in a million helmet catch and a money fade to Burress. Then the Giants kicked off and the Pats were pinned in pretty deep with virtually no time left. I mention this all because I’m just trying to refresh the scene - for myself and everyone reading along. I think first down was a sack. Then on second down, Brady got off this beautifully thrown bomb down the far sideline, left to right on your TV. Randy Moss was in double coverage but the defenders sort of bumped each other and I always felt Moss didn’t really make a maximum effort to catch that ball. Maybe he thought he could draw a flag but I thought if he made a more sincere effort to leap and catch it, with the DB semi-collision, he takes off and the Pats win. I don’t know if that was just me or if anyone else saw it but it was sort of similar to that Cam Newton go for the fumble-not go for the fumble SuperBowl moment where I don’t kill the guy for the decision they made (they kind of teach and coach QBs NOT to go after the ball in those situations but I also do wonder why the instincts don’t kick in (see ball, get ball) and why they chose to do it that way. Obviously, I’ll watch the SB42 highlights of the game from time to time if I catch it on TV but it’s been a good while since I’ve done that.
I can't say that I witnessed that exact play, but it certainly sounds like a lot of plays I DID see.
Randy could eat up single coverage, especially if the DB was short. Moss' height advantage coupled with his excellent pass catching ability often left the defense without much choice but to use two men to cover him. Very very often this resulted in pretty much nothing out of Randy.
Often times you see players take this as a challenge and try even harder to elevate their game. Not so much with Randy. Maybe he figured that by drawing two defenders, he was doing enough.
Moss became a low effort kind of player. He was wonderful his first few years, but when he became RANDY MOSS, his effort diminished.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Odell Beckham 'feeling dangerous' about trade that Giants owner gave 'reluctant approval'
Odell Beckham Jr. woke up from his social media slumber on Sunday.
As he did so, New York Giants co-owner John Mara gave a candid take on trading away the transcendent wide receiver to the Cleveland Browns.
Speaking at the NFL league meeting in Phoenix, Mara told reporters he was reluctant to deal Beckham and that when he told his grandchildren about the trade, they cried.
By the way, I enjoyed our back and forth and despite our disagreement on the topic, I still value and respect your opinions.
Always like to make sure the other guy know that. We fall on the same side on some stuff I’ve seen you post about, as well.
All in good fun in the sports talk section; I hope for you too.
Yes, same here, my friend. Sometimes I just take the opposite viewpoint and play devil's advocate only because I enjoy debating. All in good fun. Unless it involves the Phillies. Then I mean every mean thing I say.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Outside of the Superbowl and maybe an occasional Championship Sunday game, I quit watching and following anything with the NFL in 2013. I'm just shocked to learn that "The Catch" was called incomplete!
Diva gets tossed around a lot concerning wide receivers. Roethlisberger has thrown teammates under the bus on his talk show, in one breath threatened to retire and in the next one pout that the Steelers dared to draft the QB from Ok State. I think the QB is problem one in Pittsburgh but everyone wants to blame the diva wideout.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@breakdown said:
Diva gets tossed around a lot concerning wide receivers. Roethlisberger has thrown teammates under the bus on his talk show, in one breath threatened to retire and in the next one pout that the Steelers dared to draft the QB from Ok State. I think the QB is problem one in Pittsburgh but everyone wants to blame the diva wideout.
ben is a douche in that way but hes not as bad as aaron rodgers.
@breakdown said:
Diva gets tossed around a lot concerning wide receivers. Roethlisberger has thrown teammates under the bus on his talk show, in one breath threatened to retire and in the next one pout that the Steelers dared to draft the QB from Ok State. I think the QB is problem one in Pittsburgh but everyone wants to blame the diva wideout.
ben is a douche in that way but hes not as bad as aaron rodgers.
You guys are really digging up bad memories for me by bringing up the ‘07 Super Bowl 🤮. Like Erik said, Edelman, Gronk or Amendola would have made some of those catches Randy didn’t, the reason why? Moss would never sacrifice his body to make a big catch, end of story and that’s what seperates Him in a negative way from other receivers. Edelman is the greatest WR in Patriots history in my opinion. He has everything you want for that position.
@perkdog said:
You guys are really digging up bad memories for me by bringing up the ‘07 Super Bowl 🤮. Like Erik said, Edelman, Gronk or Amendola would have made some of those catches Randy didn’t, the reason why? Moss would never sacrifice his body to make a big catch, end of story and that’s what seperates Him in a negative way from other receivers. Edelman is the greatest WR in Patriots history in my opinion. He has everything you want for that position.
I appreciate each of you weighing in - you guys were whom I was hoping to hear from but due to subject matter, I didn’t want to directly tag you in the post as I thought that would Benin poor form (even though since you’ve won another 50 SBs since that it can’t be too tough).
And I know he’s not the ‘best’ but I gotta show some love for Troy Brown. Very underrated; had some good statistical seasons and the consummate professional football player. Did everything he was asked with no drama or attitude, had some really big catches, a few really solid seasons and played special teams and defense, too.
Really solid football player.
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Come on now. Knock various things about Moss if you wish, but on that non-catch? Ridiculous to knock Moss about that.
Everyone in the stadium knew the pass was going to Moss on a fly pattern. The Giants of course knew it as well, and had Moss double teamed and totally covered.
I used to think that Los Angeles fans were the biggest cry babies out there. With what was reported to be Patriots fans and Boston media knocking Gronk for retiring, i have to say that Boston fans may have surpassed Los Angeles in the category of crybaby fans.
@perkdog said:
You guys are really digging up bad memories for me by bringing up the ‘07 Super Bowl 🤮. Like Erik said, Edelman, Gronk or Amendola would have made some of those catches Randy didn’t, the reason why? Moss would never sacrifice his body to make a big catch, end of story and that’s what seperates Him in a negative way from other receivers. Edelman is the greatest WR in Patriots history in my opinion. He has everything you want for that position.
I appreciate each of you weighing in - you guys were whom I was hoping to hear from but due to subject matter, I didn’t want to directly tag you in the post as I thought that would Benin poor form (even though since you’ve won another 50 SBs since that it can’t be too tough).
And I know he’s not the ‘best’ but I gotta show some love for Troy Brown. Very underrated; had some good statistical seasons and the consummate professional football player. Did everything he was asked with no drama or attitude, had some really big catches, a few really solid seasons and played special teams and defense, too.
Really solid football player.
Tim, agreed on Troy Brown. I’d take a WR corps filled with Troy Browns & Edelman’s all day over Randy Moss and Terrelll Owens clones.
@stevek said:
Come on now. Knock various things about Moss if you wish, but on that non-catch? Ridiculous to knock Moss about that.
Everyone in the stadium knew the pass was going to Moss on a fly pattern. The Giants of course knew it as well, and had Moss double teamed and totally covered.
I used to think that Los Angeles fans were the biggest cry babies out there. With what was reported to be Patriots fans and Boston media knocking Gronk for retiring, i have to say that Boston fans may have surpassed Los Angeles in the category of crybaby fans.
We are not crying over that Moss play at all, it was brought up and we are answering. Bottom line you will not make me change my mind about Moss and his lack of work ethic, he absolutely did not give 100% on every pass thrown his way by Brady or anyone else.
@perkdog said:
You guys are really digging up bad memories for me by bringing up the ‘07 Super Bowl 🤮. Like Erik said, Edelman, Gronk or Amendola would have made some of those catches Randy didn’t, the reason why? Moss would never sacrifice his body to make a big catch, end of story and that’s what seperates Him in a negative way from other receivers. Edelman is the greatest WR in Patriots history in my opinion. He has everything you want for that position.
I first heard the term "alligator arms" in a reference to an incomplete pass intended for Moss over the middle. When they showed a replay, you could clearly see Randy's elbows held tight to his body while seemingly reaching for the ball. He was able to avoid both the ball and a hit.
The guy did not like getting hit.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@stevek said:
Come on now. Knock various things about Moss if you wish, but on that non-catch? Ridiculous to knock Moss about that.
Everyone in the stadium knew the pass was going to Moss on a fly pattern. The Giants of course knew it as well, and had Moss double teamed and totally covered.
I used to think that Los Angeles fans were the biggest cry babies out there. With what was reported to be Patriots fans and Boston media knocking Gronk for retiring, i have to say that Boston fans may have surpassed Los Angeles in the category of crybaby fans.
This a bit my fault for bringing it up in the first place. Bit of an open secret amongst Giants fans, though - Randy Moss, who might of been one of two receivers in football at the time that even could have made that play and had just had the greatest receiving season in the history of football, maybe should have tried harder to catch it. Watch it. Again, maybe he picks the ball up late in his pattern or is looking to draw a flag or whatever. And again, I’m not saying it was an easy, in stride type deal. It would have needed to be a spectacular catch and then run after catch, too. But he was at the height of his powers that year (he looked like Spider-Man at times, he was that good).
As for Boston fans being spoiled of late? I 100 percent agree (though the same can be said of Philly fans) as it is a byproduct of winning. I’ve never really had a problem with it - when you have the best team in the League as the one you always rooted for it’s hard not to sound cocky and arrogant (especially if you have a little bit of those qualities in you to begin with already). I have experienced this as a Yankee fan but not really a Giants fan; the Giants have never once been the ‘leagues best team’ in any type of hands down way as can be said for several other franchises despite the Giants having won four Superbowls. Even now, as this thread predominantly illustrates, there are very few people out there who believe Eli Manning is an NFL quarterback (besides me). And while I know it’s not apples to apples in anyway at all, I do wonder how many people know how Eli actually matched up with the best QB in the game based only on stats. (I am NOT a stat guy, partially for the reasons I think this example beautifully illustrates, but for people who are maybe rethink either how much you believe in stats or how done Eli Manning is as it's hard to have it both ways, maybe? )
2019 NFL Regular Season
Attempts per game
Eli - 36
Tom - 35.5
Completion Percentage
Eli - 66
Brady - 65.8
Yards
Eli - 4299
Brady - 4355
TDs
Eli - 21
Brady - 29
Interceptions
Eli - 11
Brady - 11
QB Rating (NFL.com)
Eli 92.4
Brady 97.7
Sacks
Eli - 47
Brady - 21
PS - Please either 'LOL' at this post to laugh at Eli Manning (and me) or for one or two of you 'Agree' if the you opposite. I am going to bookmark this thread, occasionally bump and I want to see if I can pad my LOLs +1000!!!
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Moss didn't even need to catch that ball,he could have just went up for it and would have likely had one of those two defenders run into him while trying to make the catch for a PI call. Even though he didn't make that catch I don't blame Moss for that loss,I blame the defense. Two defensive linemen had Eli in their grasps and couldn't bring him down. Asante Samuel lets an interception that would have probably sealed the win go right through his hands. Rodney Harrison letting Tyree make that helmet catch. Ellis Hobbs letting Burress go right by him on the game winning TD. If the defenders make at least one of these plays we probably see a different outcome.
@erikthredd said:
Moss didn't even need to catch that ball,he could have just went up for it and would have likely had one of those two defenders run into him while trying to make the catch for a PI call. Even though he didn't make that catch I don't blame Moss for that loss,I blame the defense. Two defensive linemen had Eli in their grasps and couldn't bring him down. Asante Samuel lets an interception that would have probably sealed the win go right through his hands. Rodney Harrison letting Tyree make that helmet catch. Ellis Hobbs letting Burress go right by him on the game winning TD. If the defenders make at least one of these plays we probably see a different outcome.
@perkdog said:
You guys are really digging up bad memories for me by bringing up the ‘07 Super Bowl 🤮. Like Erik said, Edelman, Gronk or Amendola would have made some of those catches Randy didn’t, the reason why? Moss would never sacrifice his body to make a big catch, end of story and that’s what seperates Him in a negative way from other receivers. Edelman is the greatest WR in Patriots history in my opinion. He has everything you want for that position.
I first heard the term "alligator arms" in a reference to an incomplete pass intended for Moss over the middle. When they showed a replay, you could clearly see Randy's elbows held tight to his body while seemingly reaching for the ball. He was able to avoid both the ball and a hit.
The guy did not like getting hit.
I don't disagree with ya about Moss in the alligator arms regard, and other negative aspects.
I'm talking about that particular play. Moss was in no danger of getting hit other than simply falling down with the catch, and he would have leaped for it if he thought that gave him the best chance to catch it.
I played WR in high school. It's not easy to judge a very long pass such as that, especially with two other players in your face trying to prevent the catch. Also especially towards the end of the game when you're dog tired, and then asked to run a long pass pattern.
I just thought criticizing Moss for that went a bit overboard.
But what really generated my crybaby remarks was the Gronk thing. That sticks in my craw certain media types and fans who would knock an often injured player such as Gronk, who boldly helped lead the Patriots to a number of Super Bowls, and then don't give Gronk the respect for his retirement decision that he deserves to have.
Ellis Hobbs could have covered it better and it would not have mattered. Ball was throw perfect and Plaxico was too big and too good not to make that play singled up. You can blame 'no help' but now we're getting desperate. Plax and Toomer were both excellent receivers so it was hard to choose who to cover.
Don't blame the line - Strahan, Tuck and Osi were unstoppable that day. Eli Manning won it and was a fine choice but I would have had no problem if Justin Tuck was the Super Bowl MVP. They used him really well in that SuperBowl - Strahan still required a double team, Osi was very young and a total beast that year and that left Tuck to run wild. I knew Justin Tuck was going to be pretty special in his rookie year; he barely played that year and got knicked as he started to earn more time and finished that season n the DL. We played the Chargers his rookie year when LaDanian was the best player in football. He broke a 75 yard run against the Giants but didn't get the score because Justin Tuck caught him in a footrace. Still one of the best plays hustle plays I've ever seen in a game since Don Bebee caught Leon Lett!
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@stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
Here is a similar play by Moss from the same season where he skied over two defenders for a touchdown. Go to 31:42 for his TD catch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOaYSgAnBcs
Eli Manning has awesome receivers in the first SuperBowl season - no question. Amani Toomer was a first class receiver from a Michigan to retirement. He played with many, many, many, many bad quarterbacks before Eli came along and still managed great career totals. The second SuperBowl? Um, no. Hakeems Nicks, Steve Smith and Mario Manningham - three guys who were out of football pretty quickly and never really caught on after leaving the Giants. Kind of a bunch of bums.
And speaking of bums and getting back on topic is that perhaps the biggest drawback for Odell is that he is not a great red zone target. He’s quick and can beat a guy off the line but you can beat him physically, manhandle him some and because he’s contstantly looking for flags the whole game he seems to get a boy who cried wolf reputation from the refs where even when it is too much contact he won’t get the call or be able to out physical the corner or safety to make the play. And too small to run the fade effectively...
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The ‘07 Giants had a great team and yea it was awful losing it but what really annoyed me more was them losing it in 2011. Either way Eli has the Pats number, cant dispute that. I will say that Im still suprised the Pats never won it with Welker, he was a great receiver although nothing compared to Edelman and even Amendola come playoff time.
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
When you stated "media", I presumed you meant talk radio. Next time be more careful with an incendiary comment such as that, clarify it better, think it thru for gosh sake before you post, or it may receive an incendiary reply.
In any event, it's good to know that Pats fans are behind Gronk on his successful retirement. And I now presume you meant the others were just a few jackass local sports news types. We have a few of them in Philly as well. LOL
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
When you stated "media", I presumed you meant talk radio. Next time be more careful with an incendiary comment such as that, clarify it better, think it thru for gosh sake before you post, or it may receive an incendiary reply.
In any event, it's good to know that Pats fans are behind Gronk on his successful retirement. And I now presume you meant the others were just a few jackass local sports news types. We have a few of them in Philly as well. LOL
Yeah media means media not fans on sports talk radio. Not only did you get it wrong you're also in the wrong thread. If you're gonna make up strawman arguments at least do it in the correct place.
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
BTW - I think it was you, but it may have been Paul, who has stated before how your local talk radio often bashes Bill Belichick. So when you stated "media", i thought the Gronk thing was a continuation along those lines, of bashing someone who doesn't deserve it.
I've officially placed Los Angeles fans back at the top of the list for worst crybabies. But don't worry about it, Boston fans aren't that far behind.
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
When you stated "media", I presumed you meant talk radio. Next time be more careful with an incendiary comment such as that, clarify it better, think it thru for gosh sake before you post, or it may receive an incendiary reply.
In any event, it's good to know that Pats fans are behind Gronk on his successful retirement. And I now presume you meant the others were just a few jackass local sports news types. We have a few of them in Philly as well. LOL
Boston Sports Talk Radio is home to some of the biggest loud mouth jerks, Mike Felger being one of the worse . I literally can’t stand him and don’t really care for many others for that matter. Hey I’m obviously not pumped Gronk is retiring but I’m happy for the guy, he was a great Patriot and I think he is making a smart decision so I can’t blame him one bit. I honestly will think the same about Brady even if he is still playing at a high level. To be completely honest it’s greedy to want them to keep winning “Just one more”. I’m totally satisfied with what they have achieved and at this point if they don’t win another it’s not that big a deal. Ofcourse i “Want” them to win otherwise what’s the point of being a fan?
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
BTW - I think it was you, but it may have been Paul, who has stated before how your local talk radio often bashes Bill Belichick. So when you stated "media", i thought the Gronk thing was a continuation along those lines, of bashing someone who doesn't deserve it.
I've officially placed Los Angeles fans back at the top of the list for worst crybabies. But don't worry about it, Boston fans aren't that far behind.
Our local sports talk radio personalities complain about Brady more than Belichick and they don't care if your team just won the SB. Two days after the win they were already complaining about NE's lack of cap space this offseason and how it means the team won't be able to sign players. That tells you all you need to know about these idiots we listen to. They couldn't even wait until after the parade to start their whining.
As for your worst fans list,Eagles fans ordering takeout from the local Horse farm will always be top of the charts for me.
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
When you stated "media", I presumed you meant talk radio. Next time be more careful with an incendiary comment such as that, clarify it better, think it thru for gosh sake before you post, or it may receive an incendiary reply.
In any event, it's good to know that Pats fans are behind Gronk on his successful retirement. And I now presume you meant the others were just a few jackass local sports news types. We have a few of them in Philly as well. LOL
Yeah media means media not fans on sports talk radio. Not only did you get it wrong you're also in the wrong thread. If you're gonna make up strawman arguments at least do it in the correct place.
So talk radio with fans isn't considered media, considering that fans are the central part of it?
Sorry to inform you but when fans go on talk radio, they become part of the media.
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
BTW - I think it was you, but it may have been Paul, who has stated before how your local talk radio often bashes Bill Belichick. So when you stated "media", i thought the Gronk thing was a continuation along those lines, of bashing someone who doesn't deserve it.
I've officially placed Los Angeles fans back at the top of the list for worst crybabies. But don't worry about it, Boston fans aren't that far behind.
Our local sports talk radio personalities complain about Brady more than Belichick and they don't care if your team just won the SB. Two days after the win they were already complaining about NE's lack of cap space this offseason and how it means the team won't be able to sign players. That tells you all you need to know about these idiots we listen to. They couldn't even wait until after the parade to start their whining.
As for your worst fans list,Eagles fans ordering takeout from the local Horse farm will always be top of the charts for me.
Eagles fans are complainers, not crybabies. There's a big difference.
For example, we still admire Dick Vermeil, and he only got us into a Super Bowl, he didn't even win it...and nobody in Philly even complained about that.
All the winning that Belichick has done for your city, and Pats fans still act negatively to him - THAT is the definition of a crybaby, and you know it.
@erikthredd said: @stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
When you stated "media", I presumed you meant talk radio. Next time be more careful with an incendiary comment such as that, clarify it better, think it thru for gosh sake before you post, or it may receive an incendiary reply.
In any event, it's good to know that Pats fans are behind Gronk on his successful retirement. And I now presume you meant the others were just a few jackass local sports news types. We have a few of them in Philly as well. LOL
Yeah media means media not fans on sports talk radio. Not only did you get it wrong you're also in the wrong thread. If you're gonna make up strawman arguments at least do it in the correct place.
So talk radio with fans isn't considered media, considering that fans are the central part of it?
Sorry to inform you but when fans go on talk radio, they become part of the media.
No not really but you can keep dragging this out if you want. It doesn't change the fact you completely called out Pats fans for something that was never said by any of us especially here. You got it entirely wrong,I'm done arguing this topic with you.
@erikthredd said:
Moss didn't even need to catch that ball,he could have just went up for it and would have likely had one of those two defenders run into him while trying to make the catch for a PI call. Even though he didn't make that catch I don't blame Moss for that loss,I blame the defense. Two defensive linemen had Eli in their grasps and couldn't bring him down. Asante Samuel lets an interception that would have probably sealed the win go right through his hands. Rodney Harrison letting Tyree make that helmet catch. Ellis Hobbs letting Burress go right by him on the game winning TD. If the defenders make at least one of these plays we probably see a different outcome.
I agree on all of these. It took a long time for me to get over that game. (Im really still not over it). In fact, I still havent watched the replay of that game, but i do remember vividly most of these plays. On the Tyree catch, I was so sure they were going to sack Manning, I remember saying outloud, ¨Its over¨ only for that prayer to get caught. ugh. I think they could win the next 10 SB and that one would still bother me. they were supposed to be the greatest team ever. at least according to record.
@perkdog said:
The ‘07 Giants had a great team and yea it was awful losing it but what really annoyed me more was them losing it in 2011. Either way Eli has the Pats number, cant dispute that. I will say that Im still suprised the Pats never won it with Welker, he was a great receiver although nothing compared to Edelman and even Amendola come playoff time.
Had Welker caught that pass in the 2011 SB it would have been over. I will say it was not a perfectly thrown ball, but he could have come up with it.
Steve, stop with all this nonsense about Pats fans being “Crybaby’s” you sound ridiculous, all teams have their fair share of good and bad fans. I know you love to spin your fanatical “Pat fans bashing Bellichik” ( Thats your speciality) but none of us do it to the level that you promote us to and that’s a fact. And as far as you categorizing some fans that call into sports radio as Pats fans in general is one of the most ridiculous things you have posted yet. You love Bellichik we get it, I don’t blame you since he helped you guys win that Super Bowl by benching Butler so that’s understandable. But now your claiming that when a Pats fan says anything negative about anything we are “Crybaby’s” ALL OF US but if a Philly Fan says anything negative then they are just “Complainers” ? LOL you are clearly so far off base you are living in a fantasy world. Seriously Steve what a bunch of eye rolling nonsense.
Comments
All this fiery NFL talk has me ready for the season to start!
Me too. But we have to endure 3 months of NBA playoffs and then a WHOLE season of mind numbing Baseball.
this has become a strange thread to me, it has some thoughts from some members which just don't make sense unless it is purely about "hate" towards OBJ.
it is really impossible to compare what the Browns did in 2018 to what they may do in 2019 just because they signed one player. far too many other things will happen with the Team between now and the end of the 2019 season, as well as every other Team in the NFL who will be their opponent in 2019. one example is the changes that took place with the other three Teams in their Division. those games represent more than a third of the season. I actually don't expect the Browns to make the playoffs in 2019 and don't really think it's a good thing if they do. I think it's important that they improve, that they figure out what the Team personality is and who the Leaders are on Offense and Defense. it is important to me that above everything else they find unity as a Team and establish a feeling of what it is to win games together.
lost in all the hoopla of signing of one player and in their improvement last year is one thing, one very HUGE thing --- the Team has a new Head Coach and a new Offensive Coordinator. those changes will affect the outcome of the 2019 season far more than the addition of any single player.
I watched every game he played as a Viking.
The excitement he provided at first was fantastic. It soon started to become obvious that he wasn't really much of a "team" player, then things just got worse both on and off the field.
After about his fourth season he was pretty worthless as a part of a winning team.
His "entertainment" value was good though I guess. I would rather see boring personalities that play hard than the "diva" types.
@grote15
By the way, I enjoyed our back and forth and despite our disagreement on the topic, I still value and respect your opinions.
Always like to make sure the other guy know that. We fall on the same side on some stuff I’ve seen you post about, as well.
All in good fun in the sports talk section; I hope for you too.
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Along these lines, I wanted to toss this out there. Looking for some objectivity on this specific subject play...
In Super Bowl 42, the Giants had that game winning drive that featuredly a completely ridiculous, one in a million helmet catch and a money fade to Burress. Then the Giants kicked off and the Pats were pinned in pretty deep with virtually no time left. I mention this all because I’m just trying to refresh the scene - for myself and everyone reading along. I think first down was a sack. Then on second down, Brady got off this beautifully thrown bomb down the far sideline, left to right on your TV. Randy Moss was in double coverage but the defenders sort of bumped each other and I always felt Moss didn’t really make a maximum effort to catch that ball. Maybe he thought he could draw a flag but I thought if he made a more sincere effort to leap and catch it, with the DB semi-collision, he takes off and the Pats win. I don’t know if that was just me or if anyone else saw it but it was sort of similar to that Cam Newton go for the fumble-not go for the fumble SuperBowl moment where I don’t kill the guy for the decision they made (they kind of teach and coach QBs NOT to go after the ball in those situations but I also do wonder why the instincts don’t kick in (see ball, get ball) and why they chose to do it that way. Obviously, I’ll watch the SB42 highlights of the game from time to time if I catch it on TV but it’s been a good while since I’ve done that.
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i still say Jarvis Landry's presence is going to play a significant role in all this. that's his LSU homie, hence i can almost guarantee that OBJ will respect any words that flow out of his mouth.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Diva's are great when things are going good. When adversity hits......watch out.
I can't say that I witnessed that exact play, but it certainly sounds like a lot of plays I DID see.
Randy could eat up single coverage, especially if the DB was short. Moss' height advantage coupled with his excellent pass catching ability often left the defense without much choice but to use two men to cover him. Very very often this resulted in pretty much nothing out of Randy.
Often times you see players take this as a challenge and try even harder to elevate their game. Not so much with Randy. Maybe he figured that by drawing two defenders, he was doing enough.
Moss became a low effort kind of player. He was wonderful his first few years, but when he became RANDY MOSS, his effort diminished.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/odell-beckham-feeling-dangerous-about-trade-that-giants-owner-gave-reluctant-approval-051534966.html
Odell Beckham 'feeling dangerous' about trade that Giants owner gave 'reluctant approval'
Odell Beckham Jr. woke up from his social media slumber on Sunday.
As he did so, New York Giants co-owner John Mara gave a candid take on trading away the transcendent wide receiver to the Cleveland Browns.
Speaking at the NFL league meeting in Phoenix, Mara told reporters he was reluctant to deal Beckham and that when he told his grandchildren about the trade, they cried.
What a crock of chit...by the Giants. 🤣
Yes, same here, my friend. Sometimes I just take the opposite viewpoint and play devil's advocate only because I enjoy debating. All in good fun. Unless it involves the Phillies. Then I mean every mean thing I say.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@1951WheatiesPremium scroll to 2:07:43 for that Moss play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1QkoOUEgyc&t=16s
edit: Gronk would have caught that ball and I think so would Edelman & Amendola too.
Eric
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Outside of the Superbowl and maybe an occasional Championship Sunday game, I quit watching and following anything with the NFL in 2013. I'm just shocked to learn that "The Catch" was called incomplete!
Diva gets tossed around a lot concerning wide receivers. Roethlisberger has thrown teammates under the bus on his talk show, in one breath threatened to retire and in the next one pout that the Steelers dared to draft the QB from Ok State. I think the QB is problem one in Pittsburgh but everyone wants to blame the diva wideout.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
ben is a douche in that way but hes not as bad as aaron rodgers.
Totally agree.
You guys are really digging up bad memories for me by bringing up the ‘07 Super Bowl 🤮. Like Erik said, Edelman, Gronk or Amendola would have made some of those catches Randy didn’t, the reason why? Moss would never sacrifice his body to make a big catch, end of story and that’s what seperates Him in a negative way from other receivers. Edelman is the greatest WR in Patriots history in my opinion. He has everything you want for that position.
@erikthredd
@perkdog
I appreciate each of you weighing in - you guys were whom I was hoping to hear from but due to subject matter, I didn’t want to directly tag you in the post as I thought that would Benin poor form (even though since you’ve won another 50 SBs since that it can’t be too tough).
And I know he’s not the ‘best’ but I gotta show some love for Troy Brown. Very underrated; had some good statistical seasons and the consummate professional football player. Did everything he was asked with no drama or attitude, had some really big catches, a few really solid seasons and played special teams and defense, too.
Really solid football player.
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Come on now. Knock various things about Moss if you wish, but on that non-catch? Ridiculous to knock Moss about that.
Everyone in the stadium knew the pass was going to Moss on a fly pattern. The Giants of course knew it as well, and had Moss double teamed and totally covered.
I used to think that Los Angeles fans were the biggest cry babies out there. With what was reported to be Patriots fans and Boston media knocking Gronk for retiring, i have to say that Boston fans may have surpassed Los Angeles in the category of crybaby fans.
Tim, agreed on Troy Brown. I’d take a WR corps filled with Troy Browns & Edelman’s all day over Randy Moss and Terrelll Owens clones.
We are not crying over that Moss play at all, it was brought up and we are answering. Bottom line you will not make me change my mind about Moss and his lack of work ethic, he absolutely did not give 100% on every pass thrown his way by Brady or anyone else.
I first heard the term "alligator arms" in a reference to an incomplete pass intended for Moss over the middle. When they showed a replay, you could clearly see Randy's elbows held tight to his body while seemingly reaching for the ball. He was able to avoid both the ball and a hit.
The guy did not like getting hit.
@stevek
This a bit my fault for bringing it up in the first place. Bit of an open secret amongst Giants fans, though - Randy Moss, who might of been one of two receivers in football at the time that even could have made that play and had just had the greatest receiving season in the history of football, maybe should have tried harder to catch it. Watch it. Again, maybe he picks the ball up late in his pattern or is looking to draw a flag or whatever. And again, I’m not saying it was an easy, in stride type deal. It would have needed to be a spectacular catch and then run after catch, too. But he was at the height of his powers that year (he looked like Spider-Man at times, he was that good).
As for Boston fans being spoiled of late? I 100 percent agree (though the same can be said of Philly fans) as it is a byproduct of winning. I’ve never really had a problem with it - when you have the best team in the League as the one you always rooted for it’s hard not to sound cocky and arrogant (especially if you have a little bit of those qualities in you to begin with already). I have experienced this as a Yankee fan but not really a Giants fan; the Giants have never once been the ‘leagues best team’ in any type of hands down way as can be said for several other franchises despite the Giants having won four Superbowls. Even now, as this thread predominantly illustrates, there are very few people out there who believe Eli Manning is an NFL quarterback (besides me). And while I know it’s not apples to apples in anyway at all, I do wonder how many people know how Eli actually matched up with the best QB in the game based only on stats. (I am NOT a stat guy, partially for the reasons I think this example beautifully illustrates, but for people who are maybe rethink either how much you believe in stats or how done Eli Manning is as it's hard to have it both ways, maybe?
)
2019 NFL Regular Season
Attempts per game
Eli - 36
Tom - 35.5
Completion Percentage
Eli - 66
Brady - 65.8
Yards
Eli - 4299
Brady - 4355
TDs
Eli - 21
Brady - 29
Interceptions
Eli - 11
Brady - 11
QB Rating (NFL.com)
Eli 92.4
Brady 97.7
Sacks
Eli - 47
Brady - 21
PS - Please either 'LOL' at this post to laugh at Eli Manning (and me) or for one or two of you 'Agree' if the you opposite. I am going to bookmark this thread, occasionally bump and I want to see if I can pad my LOLs +1000!!!
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Moss didn't even need to catch that ball,he could have just went up for it and would have likely had one of those two defenders run into him while trying to make the catch for a PI call. Even though he didn't make that catch I don't blame Moss for that loss,I blame the defense. Two defensive linemen had Eli in their grasps and couldn't bring him down. Asante Samuel lets an interception that would have probably sealed the win go right through his hands. Rodney Harrison letting Tyree make that helmet catch. Ellis Hobbs letting Burress go right by him on the game winning TD. If the defenders make at least one of these plays we probably see a different outcome.
Eric
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I also blame the offensive line.
Tim I threw you a token lol for your 1000 lol quest 😂
Much obliged, Paul!
By the way, stats were interesting to look at at least, no?
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I don't disagree with ya about Moss in the alligator arms regard, and other negative aspects.
I'm talking about that particular play. Moss was in no danger of getting hit other than simply falling down with the catch, and he would have leaped for it if he thought that gave him the best chance to catch it.
I played WR in high school. It's not easy to judge a very long pass such as that, especially with two other players in your face trying to prevent the catch. Also especially towards the end of the game when you're dog tired, and then asked to run a long pass pattern.
I just thought criticizing Moss for that went a bit overboard.
But what really generated my crybaby remarks was the Gronk thing. That sticks in my craw certain media types and fans who would knock an often injured player such as Gronk, who boldly helped lead the Patriots to a number of Super Bowls, and then don't give Gronk the respect for his retirement decision that he deserves to have.
Oh, and...
Ellis Hobbs could have covered it better and it would not have mattered. Ball was throw perfect and Plaxico was too big and too good not to make that play singled up. You can blame 'no help' but now we're getting desperate. Plax and Toomer were both excellent receivers so it was hard to choose who to cover.
Don't blame the line - Strahan, Tuck and Osi were unstoppable that day. Eli Manning won it and was a fine choice but I would have had no problem if Justin Tuck was the Super Bowl MVP. They used him really well in that SuperBowl - Strahan still required a double team, Osi was very young and a total beast that year and that left Tuck to run wild. I knew Justin Tuck was going to be pretty special in his rookie year; he barely played that year and got knicked as he started to earn more time and finished that season n the DL. We played the Chargers his rookie year when LaDanian was the best player in football. He broke a 75 yard run against the Giants but didn't get the score because Justin Tuck caught him in a footrace. Still one of the best plays hustle plays I've ever seen in a game since Don Bebee caught Leon Lett!
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@stevek where did you see Pats fans knocking Gronk? Definitely not in this thread and definitely not in the other thread. I brought up the Boston/NE media ripping him but nowhere did I ever say Pats fans were doing it. Stop making up crap so you have a reason to attack "Pats fans." I listened to local sports talk radio all day yesterday and I can honestly say I don't remember hearing one single Pats fan complain about Gronk. As for Moss,Tim mentioned that play and we commented on it,I even posted the video just so people knew what he was talking about.
Eric
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Here is a similar play by Moss from the same season where he skied over two defenders for a touchdown. Go to 31:42 for his TD catch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOaYSgAnBcs
Eric
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Two more quick thoughts on these topics?
Eli Manning has awesome receivers in the first SuperBowl season - no question. Amani Toomer was a first class receiver from a Michigan to retirement. He played with many, many, many, many bad quarterbacks before Eli came along and still managed great career totals. The second SuperBowl? Um, no. Hakeems Nicks, Steve Smith and Mario Manningham - three guys who were out of football pretty quickly and never really caught on after leaving the Giants. Kind of a bunch of bums.
And speaking of bums and getting back on topic is that perhaps the biggest drawback for Odell is that he is not a great red zone target. He’s quick and can beat a guy off the line but you can beat him physically, manhandle him some and because he’s contstantly looking for flags the whole game he seems to get a boy who cried wolf reputation from the refs where even when it is too much contact he won’t get the call or be able to out physical the corner or safety to make the play. And too small to run the fade effectively...
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Amani "It's not a toomer!!"
The ‘07 Giants had a great team and yea it was awful losing it but what really annoyed me more was them losing it in 2011. Either way Eli has the Pats number, cant dispute that. I will say that Im still suprised the Pats never won it with Welker, he was a great receiver although nothing compared to Edelman and even Amendola come playoff time.
Back on Beckham, I think him being with Landry will help keep him focused
When you stated "media", I presumed you meant talk radio. Next time be more careful with an incendiary comment such as that, clarify it better, think it thru for gosh sake before you post, or it may receive an incendiary reply.
In any event, it's good to know that Pats fans are behind Gronk on his successful retirement. And I now presume you meant the others were just a few jackass local sports news types. We have a few of them in Philly as well. LOL
he should retire he is way overpaid edleman should retire too
Yeah media means media not fans on sports talk radio. Not only did you get it wrong you're also in the wrong thread. If you're gonna make up strawman arguments at least do it in the correct place.
Eric
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BTW - I think it was you, but it may have been Paul, who has stated before how your local talk radio often bashes Bill Belichick. So when you stated "media", i thought the Gronk thing was a continuation along those lines, of bashing someone who doesn't deserve it.
I've officially placed Los Angeles fans back at the top of the list for worst crybabies. But don't worry about it, Boston fans aren't that far behind.
Boston Sports Talk Radio is home to some of the biggest loud mouth jerks, Mike Felger being one of the worse . I literally can’t stand him and don’t really care for many others for that matter. Hey I’m obviously not pumped Gronk is retiring but I’m happy for the guy, he was a great Patriot and I think he is making a smart decision so I can’t blame him one bit. I honestly will think the same about Brady even if he is still playing at a high level. To be completely honest it’s greedy to want them to keep winning “Just one more”. I’m totally satisfied with what they have achieved and at this point if they don’t win another it’s not that big a deal. Ofcourse i “Want” them to win otherwise what’s the point of being a fan?
Our local sports talk radio personalities complain about Brady more than Belichick and they don't care if your team just won the SB. Two days after the win they were already complaining about NE's lack of cap space this offseason and how it means the team won't be able to sign players. That tells you all you need to know about these idiots we listen to. They couldn't even wait until after the parade to start their whining.
As for your worst fans list,Eagles fans ordering takeout from the local Horse farm will always be top of the charts for me.
Eric
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So talk radio with fans isn't considered media, considering that fans are the central part of it?
Sorry to inform you but when fans go on talk radio, they become part of the media.
Eagles fans are complainers, not crybabies. There's a big difference.
For example, we still admire Dick Vermeil, and he only got us into a Super Bowl, he didn't even win it...and nobody in Philly even complained about that.
All the winning that Belichick has done for your city, and Pats fans still act negatively to him - THAT is the definition of a crybaby, and you know it.
No not really but you can keep dragging this out if you want. It doesn't change the fact you completely called out Pats fans for something that was never said by any of us especially here. You got it entirely wrong,I'm done arguing this topic with you.
Eric
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me·di·a1
/ˈmēdēə/Submit
noun
1.
the main means of mass communication (broadcasting, publishing, and the Internet) regarded collectively.
Fans on talk radio, or even an internet forum such as this are part of "mass communication"
You're welcome.
In that case I better update my resume after calling in once to talk sports over 17 years ago. #worksinlocalmedia
Eric
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I agree on all of these. It took a long time for me to get over that game. (Im really still not over it). In fact, I still havent watched the replay of that game, but i do remember vividly most of these plays. On the Tyree catch, I was so sure they were going to sack Manning, I remember saying outloud, ¨Its over¨ only for that prayer to get caught. ugh. I think they could win the next 10 SB and that one would still bother me. they were supposed to be the greatest team ever. at least according to record.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Had Welker caught that pass in the 2011 SB it would have been over. I will say it was not a perfectly thrown ball, but he could have come up with it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Steve, stop with all this nonsense about Pats fans being “Crybaby’s” you sound ridiculous, all teams have their fair share of good and bad fans. I know you love to spin your fanatical “Pat fans bashing Bellichik” ( Thats your speciality) but none of us do it to the level that you promote us to and that’s a fact. And as far as you categorizing some fans that call into sports radio as Pats fans in general is one of the most ridiculous things you have posted yet. You love Bellichik we get it, I don’t blame you since he helped you guys win that Super Bowl by benching Butler so that’s understandable. But now your claiming that when a Pats fan says anything negative about anything we are “Crybaby’s” ALL OF US but if a Philly Fan says anything negative then they are just “Complainers” ? LOL you are clearly so far off base you are living in a fantasy world. Seriously Steve what a bunch of eye rolling nonsense.