Why did this buffalo get a 65 grade, beats me?
BUFFNIXX
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Why would this buffalo nickel get a 65 grade? Seems to me that it would have to have degraded in the slab after it was graded, and then sealed? Would a group of professional graders looking at this coin as it is give it a GEM grade? I know that if I was looking to buy a gem of this coin I would pass on this one in a heart beat. I could only give it a 63 because of all the reverse “chatter” marks or whatever else you want to call it. 
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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That's a tough photo for me to interpret. Looks sketchy though.
Must be post slab issues.
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Photo looks like picture taken out of slab reverse and inslab obverse. Like two different coins. Are these your pics or sellers or someone elses?
Jim
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I have seen Jefferson Proofs with that grade with basically identical "spotting".
It's splotchy toning.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It's the very rare Buffalo in a Dust Storm variety!!!!
No idea, I wouldn't want to pay 5 money for it.
Collector, occasional seller
A technical 65 with unattractive reverse toning.
But the real question: 'Will it sticker?'
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Probably a coin that is a 67 based on the surfaces, marks, luster, etc. But then downgraded a couple of points to 65 because of the negative eye appeal of the ugly toning spots.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I like it sand storm buffalo 🐃 ever buffalo needs a home!
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
I could live with a few black specs, but pretty sure that type of toning would be etched into surface? That can't be conserved...can it?
it is most probably one of two things: a bad alloy mix or more likely struck from rusted dies.
These are called "Flyspecks." They are tiny flecks of corrosion commonly found on coins with a nickel composition.
IMO, they were on the coin when it was graded. That's all I will say.
They are easily removed. Unfortunately, if that is done, the black specks turn to gray specks that are etched into the coin's surface.
It just needs a bug bomb to clear away all those flies from around the Bison.
Sneeze?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
In my opinion it's a problem coin that should reside in a "genuine" holder. The specks are going to haunt whomever owns the coin.
Technical grade doesn't always mean pretty.
It's definitely buried in that slab, unless sent in to PCGS for conservation.
Over the years, I’ve seen many Proof Buffalo nickels graded PR64 and higher with that appearance. It’s highly unlikely that they could benefit from conservation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A shame.
It is your opinion then Mark, that these spots are an artifact of the production process? The packaging?
There must be some commonality.
My guess is that it’s due to packaging and/or environmental conditions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you.
as Insider said, they are seen on Nickel coinage, from my observation from this era in particular. I have seen several 1941 Proof Jefferson Nickels with these spots. they are similar to "Tin pest" that can be seen on some medals(white metal/tin). I tend to think it is somehow linked to the manufacturing process or the planchets, if it was packaging or environmental it seems that there would be more of them. the worst I saw was a 1940 R.38 Proof Jefferson Nickel in a nice Proof Set.
I think PCGS understands what the cause is and grades them accordingly.
Curiously, why would you expect to see more of them if it’s due to packaging or environmental conditions, but not if it’s due to the manufacturing process or the planchets?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
"Why did this buffalo get a 65 grade..."
Because it crossed the road - to get away from the guy who was sneezing.
[Mirror proof or not, it's hard to imagine anyone paying money for that -- maybe barter for something?]
Flyspecs and does not effect the grade. It does, however, effect
the eye appeal and I’d pass everyday on this coin because of the nasty eye appeal it displays.
Sorry, but I must disagree. Flyspecks can and often do affect the grade. And, as eye-appeal is a consideration in a coin’s grade, if eye-appeal is affected, the grade can be affected, along with it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Curiously, why would you expect to see more of them if it’s due to packaging or environmental conditions, but not if it’s due to the manufacturing process or the planchets
if it was happening during striking or if it was a planchet problem I would expect some QC intervention, the result being an elimination of the problem or a limitation of the problem.
if it is anything post-strike there's nothing that can be done. in that event, I would expect a high percentage of the issues to suffer if the packaging was the same.
Thanks.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, I don't know if I'm right or not or if that even makes sense, it's just how I reasoned it out. also, I don't recall seeing this on Proof dates after 1941.
That makes us even, as I don’t know if what I think about storage and environment being the cause is right, either.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is this active, as in continuing to get worse?
Please remember, don't hate the messenger and I'm just using these posts to add my opinion.
It is very clear to me that hardly anyone knows what A TRUE TECHNICAL GRADE (as used by its developers ) actually is. We can thank the ANA for that.
Technical grading allows one to have a pretty good idea of a coin's condition and it does not change as long as the coin remains in the same condition. Therefore the technical grade for this nickel (converted to modern times) is not
MS-65. Since the image shows virtually no marks, spot, or hairlines, its technical grade would be in the PR-67 or higher - COMMA FLYSPECKS. Take away the corrosion spots and the coin's technical grade would be PR-67 or higher from the image.
Eye appeal is the combination of all the factors that go into grading. Therefore, anything we do to a coin will affect its eye appeal up or down (grade).
Flyspecks are a corrosion product. In the right environment, they will get worse. Sealed in a slab, probably not in our lifetime. Sell it or trade it.
I will politely disagree. Consider milk spots. One prevailing theory is that they are due to planchet preparation but don't immediately show up. Why couldn't fly specs have a similar origin: some planchet defect or contamination that darkens later?
Such a nasty manifestation on a truly nice Buffalo nickel.... Cheers, RickO
I dare say that the coin developed those spots after it went into the slab. If they were there when the coin was graded ....
All you have to do is sneeze, cough or speak over one these coins, and this can happen.
RE: "They are easily removed. Unfortunately, if that is done, the black specks turn to gray specks that are etched into the coin's surface."
Then what has happened is damage, and the coin would be ungradeable.
You could say the same about toning. Removing it does not leave the surface unaffected. By your standards, all toned coins would be damaged and upgradeable.
I believe the flyspecks were on the coin when graded. I say this because it takes time to turn them black and eat into the coin. This is an image of a Proof nickel with what I believe to be an "organic growth." These are white and will come right off with acetone. As I remember, the coin is from the 20th century but I did not record its date. Given time, I'll bet they corrode the surface.
No....only if there was a perceivable change. But, all but the lightest tarnish leaves a chloride or sulfide residue.
Living things have to "eat." What would they eat in the coin's field that is not on the frost? Or -- do we "ugly bags of mostly water" just not see them? Crystals can "grow" in a similar manner usually following fractile descriptions.
I wonder what the microbes on asteroids eat? I've read that bacteria eat almost anything.
While the "organic growth" on the nickel above looks like it could be mineral in nature, the original Buffalo has a texture more reminiscent of dust. A sneeze (or any liquid) would leave rounded droplets.
The rare and elusive sneeze-spray variety. Pre-antihistamine era.
Try to remove any tarnish from a copper coin...
I don't believe any microbes have ever been found on asteroids
LOL, The ones that were imaged were fossilized! The live ones are still up there.
since I have owned coins with a similar appearance, submitted them to PCGS and had them straight grade I will say that it is almost 100% that this coin looked like that prior to grading and it didn't change later. prior to submitting my coin I used acetone and it did nothing. I did a rinse in 50/50 E-Z-Est and distilled water and it did nothing. I only louped the surface with a 9x glass, but it looked as though the "spots" were raised off the surface as opposed to etching into the surface as I would expect with corrosion.
perhaps if someone has a coin with similar spots they could examine it and report what they see.
Thought it turned in the slab... Was shocked seeing the Secure View photo looking the same
It has been done lots of times. The coins are chemically or mechanically altered with many virtually undetectable. I've seen it from the doorway in a large closet, One of the chemical baths was copper sulfate (blue solution). The mechanical treatment was first seen in the 1080's. I named it "micro-whizzing" although it looked nothing like actual whizzing ID'd by the movement of metal. Anyone can "fix" a non-red copper coin and turn it brown again. One method is in the old-time literature.