Silver Market

Is the Silver Market manipulated?

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  • HJP717HJP717 Posts: 76 ✭✭

    Is the Silver Market manipulated?

  • HJP717HJP717 Posts: 76 ✭✭

    Good answer! Thank you!

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 20,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, that's helpful? It matters?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    This is America. Markets are not manipulated. Our bankers are trustworthy.

    Just curious. Is this table for one particular fine or a year’s worth of fines or all fines of a particular infraction?
    Thanks!

    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

    CN eBay

    All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CuKevin said:

    @derryb said:
    This is America. Markets are not manipulated. Our bankers are trustworthy.

    Just curious. Is this table for one particular fine or a year’s worth of fines or all fines of a particular infraction?
    Thanks!

    since the 2009 financial crisis

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @CuKevin said:

    @derryb said:
    This is America. Markets are not manipulated. Our bankers are trustworthy.

    Just curious. Is this table for one particular fine or a year’s worth of fines or all fines of a particular infraction?
    Thanks!

    since the 2009 financial crisis

    Thanks again!

    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

    CN eBay

    All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
  • OPAOPA Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    This is America. Markets are not manipulated. Our bankers are trustworthy.

    If my memory serves me correctly, most of those fines were mortgage related and not to PM price fixing.

    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 19,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019 6:47AM

    It matters?

    This question is akin to asking whether it matters if NSA records everything you say or write and whether it matters if apple or google tracks your location for posterity whether or not you've ever done anything wrong.

    It matters in the same way that it matters that the funds in your bank account are now legally considered to be a loan to the bank and that you are considered to be an unsecured creditor, last on the list of claimants if the bank goes under.

    It matters in the same way that banks are allowed to profit from the creation of credit on an almost unlimited basis and that there is no accountability in the way that FASB allows bad debt to be counted as an asset on bank balance sheets.

    It matters in the same way that gov.com can run up 100s of $trillions in unfunded liabilities for which you and I will necessarily be taxed to cover the deficit, either directly or through price inflation or through default via some as yet undefined mechanism.

    It matters in the same way that FASAB has declared government accounting to be a national security issue and has now been made unavailable for public scrutiny so that government debt can't be valued for risk (by pension managers for instance), by any objective financial measurement.

    The reason that it matters is because the silver market is based on paper trading and paper trading isn't the same thing as physical bullion in your possession. Other factors will always enter into the equation, such as confiscation orders or windfall profits taxes and the like - but physical metal is accountable when not much else really is.

    End of rant.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Using derrybs logic, we are all manipulated since we've all paid a fine.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    big difference between the guy who gets a speeding ticket and the career criminal banker who pays billions in fines for regularly manipulating markets and ripping off its customers.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    big difference between the guy who gets a speeding ticket and the career criminal banker who pays billions in fines for regularly manipulating markets and ripping off its customers.

    Airline companies have paid fines. Is air travel manipulated? How does that matter?

    Donald Trump has paid fines. Is he manipulated? How does that matter?

    Coin dealers have paid fines. Is the coin market manipulated? How does that matter?

    Bullion dealers have paid fines? Is the bullion market manipulated? How does that matter?

    Utility companies have paid fines. Is electricity manipulated? How does that matter?

    How far do you wish to go on this?


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • tneigtneig Posts: 1,499 ✭✭✭

    Does supply and demand get considered in the futures market, and if so, to what extent?

    @derryb said:
    Precious metal prices are manipulated via the futures market. This spot price determines the base price of physical metals. The futures market was created to "stabilize" (control) prices that would otherwise be volatile. For the producers and large consumers of these items (farmers, miners, food producers, etc.) stable prices are important. For governments price control of anything that competes with the ruling currency is equally important. Since governments do not directly participate in the futures market, the bankers that they regulate (keep out of jail) are obliged to do it for them. JPM is their largest player.

    COA
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019 8:42AM

    @cohodk said:

    How far do you wish to go on this?

    take it as far as you have to for you to admit that PMs are also being manipulated. It matters when any market is manipulated, there are victims to the crime.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    How far do you wish to go on this?

    take it as far as you have to for you to realize that PMs are also being manipulated.

    How does it matter what I think?


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    How far do you wish to go on this?

    take it as far as you have to for you to realize that PMs are also being manipulated.

    How does it matter what I think?

    What you think does not matter. What you post as reality does matter to those seeking answers, such as the OP.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HJP717 said:
    Is the Silver Market manipulated?

    COMEX Silver "Market" Dynamics

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 20,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, if just buy a neat looking chunk of silver and put it in my little lock box, and take it out to look at and heft in a manly fashion every once in a while, and later take a picture and post it here and sell it to one of you, then manipulation of the silver futures market doesn't really matter to me does it?

    Except in the abstract sense, in my own mind and yours, that it somehow makes me feel good and right for doing those things with a piece of silver, rather than a seashell or a folding knife.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    How far do you wish to go on this?

    take it as far as you have to for you to realize that PMs are also being manipulated.

    How does it matter what I think?

    What you think does not matter. What you post as reality does matter to those seeking answers, such as the OP.

    Please heed your own advice. Your comments are no more valid to to he OP than are mine.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:
    So, if just buy a neat looking chunk of silver and put it in my little lock box, and take it out to look at and heft in a manly fashion every once in a while, and later take a picture and post it here and sell it to one of you, then manipulation of the silver futures market doesn't really matter to me does it?

    What happens in the silver futures market only matters to you if value/price of your chunk of silver matters to you.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 20,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What if i have a rather large hoard, accumulation, collection, (whatever) and paid from 5 to 25 with an average of $15, and now they have manipulated the price to... what now? About $15!

    Ok, how would any of that be different if there were no manipulation in the "paper" silver market? Might the price now just as likely be lower than higher?

    Silver costs about $9/oz to purify from dirt and rocks.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Quid est veritas?




    "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are true"--Abe Lincoln



    Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...



  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ignorance is the breeding ground of manipulation and conspiracy theory


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 19,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019 5:03PM

    When Goldman Sachs traders front-run their own clients' trades and refer to these same clients as "muppets", you can be sure that someone is being unethically, illegally (and materially) screwed by manipulation and conspiracy.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • rickoricko Posts: 66,574 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The trick is, to get in league with the manipulators..... :D Then you win when they do..What a great idea, I must make some calls.... :D Cheers, RickO

  • bluelobsterbluelobster Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭

    The markets are manipulated, at least for short or longer periods of time. Still, the market sets the price, No?

  • AcesCrackedAcesCracked Posts: 182 ✭✭

    You guys need a hobby...…………………...

  • OPAOPA Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope the "manipulators" are finished in bringing down the price of AG & AU ;)

    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2019 1:57PM

    @OPA said:
    I hope the "manipulators" are finished in bringing down the price of AG & AU ;)

    Down from where? Gold is the same price it was 5 years ago and the 5 year average price is about 1250.

    Hmmmm....today about the same as the 5 year average. Dang those volatile futures!!! Lol

    Today.....1295
    1 yr ave...1265
    2 yr ave...1276
    3 yr ave....1273
    4 yr ave....1241
    5 yr ave....1240
    6 yr ave....1253
    7 yr ave ...1310
    8 yr ave....1353
    9 yr ave...1348
    10 yr ave...1316
    11 yr ave....1277
    12 yr ave...1235

    Yeah....I think that pretty much ends that volatility discussion.

    Mic drop.🎤


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Posts: 799 ✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:
    Mic drop.🎤

    The mic drop is side splitting...too funny

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:
    Yeah....I think that pretty much ends that volatility discussion.
    Mic drop.🎤

    My lucky day. I found a mic on the ground and picked it up.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    Hmmmm....today about the same as the 5 year average. Dang those volatile futures!!! Lol

    Today.....1295
    1 yr ave...1265
    2 yr ave...1276
    3 yr ave....1273
    4 yr ave....1241
    5 yr ave....1240
    6 yr ave....1253
    7 yr ave ...1310
    8 yr ave....1353
    9 yr ave...1348
    10 yr ave...1316
    11 yr ave....1277
    12 yr ave...1235

    The reason we look at averages is to filter out the volatility.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 986 ✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    The reason we look at averages is to filter out the volatility.

    That seems reasonable if you include a longer term perspective data based on gold average annual closing prices:

    It may reduce volatility, but does not change the fact gold is in an average uptrend priced in USD, or if you prefer the concept that gold "value" is stable, then the dollar value is dropping on average.

    50 year average $527
    40 year average $633
    30 year average $707
    20 year average $879
    10 year average $1305

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2019 8:08PM

    @Goldminers said:

    Nah....it's getting old and tiring. :)


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 19,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019 5:00AM

    The number of ounces in my stack isn't all that volatile, but the nominal change in dollar value of my stack seems to be.

    Well, actually it's been stable and rising as I've continued to add to it, and I'm quite pleased with the way that the 3 metals balance each other out. My ratio is now about 15/70/15.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019 9:37AM

    While average price remains stable over the years, the unique short term volatility of precious metals (especially silver) have provided great profit opportunity for those who correctly time the volatility using PM ETFs. Thank-you COMEX, knowing price will get hammered when it climbs can make volatility your friend. Short term price volatility is irrelevant to the long term holder of physical PMs. Be aware that there are short term tools to take advantage of volatility.

    While gold price is where it was five years ago, the volatility in between offered many profitable opportunities using Precious Metal ETFs. Leveraged ETFs offered greater profit while inverse and leveraged inverse ETFs provided profit in the downturns.

    Stale/stable yearly price averages do not mean profits in precious metals were unavailable. Quite the opposite.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the unique short term volatility of precious metals (especially silver)

    Now, when you say "unique", you are saying that there are no other examples of similar volatility. Is this the stance you wish to take?

    Please explain how you believe how this is "unique". Thanks in advance.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019 12:00PM

    5 Reasons Commodities Are More Volatile

    You really need to learn how to conduct research.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    5 Reasons Commodities Are More Volatile

    You really need to learn how to conduct research.

    Well, I prefer when you prove yourself wrong, rather than me having to do it. You may want to read that article, as it demonstrates that volatility is not unique to precious metals, and in fact compares quite favorably the volatility of silver that that of sugar and natural gas.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019 1:55PM

    I said "unique." I did not say exclusive. Typical example of you changing what someone else says to what you want to hear. LOL.

    so, metal futures aren't volatile and their price is not manipulated by the big playas? If you don't think these playas are not profiting greatly from the volatility they create then you need to manage a Burger King instead of other peoples' savings.

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • OPAOPA Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gee, I always thought that If something is unique, it's the only one around,

    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 15,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019 3:26PM

    Nah.....tiresome.


    Excuses are tools of the ignorant
    Knowledge is the enemy of fear
  • derrybderryb Posts: 26,822 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow’s consumption pulled forward. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not only do you see the large holding but you also have folks sitting around table who mark the price by fiat.

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭✭

    Copper. Don't forget the world Copper production. As Copper production declines the Silver by product is reduced, reducing supply. So Copper has a inverse relation to new Silver supply.

    email: [email protected]

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,521 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't like silver but come here for my natural gas. :p

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 19,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    volatility is not unique to precious metals, and in fact compares quite favorably the volatility of silver that that of sugar and natural gas

    Much harder for an individual to store sugar & natural gas than to store silver, and neither have ever been used as a monetary medium of exchange, so I don't see the relevance unless you think that futures contracts or ETFs are equivalent to holding physical assets. They aren't equivalent, and I'm not so sure that comparing a measure of volatility for a futures contract or an ETF to physical silver is very valid.

    Allowing the trading of contracts without proof of physical ownership undoubtedly contributes to volatility, and the creation of derivative contracts that bet on changes in market volatility is simply more evidence that manipulation is taking place. Lots of sleight of hand and staying a step ahead of the next move, without seeming to be so obvious. Buying physical negates most of that by slowing down the whole process of buying & selling.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • ADGADG Posts: 295 ✭✭✭

    "I said "unique." I did not say exclusive" ????????

    "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! "
  • HJP717HJP717 Posts: 76 ✭✭

    What makes the Silver market so volatile?

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