@BillJones said:
Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,
I can give you my answer why it is important:
1) his opinion (and the sticker) represents the opinon of one of the best graders in the world that the coin is solid or strong for the grade (and therefore you are not buying a coin at the bottom of the grade)--that counts for something
2) his opinion represents that the coins has not been doctored--a huge factor
3) it is now a fact that in the large majority of cases a CAC coin (and his opinion) increases the value of the coin
4) his opinion makes the coin more liquid in that there are more buyers and also he makes a market in coins with the CAC sticker
5) his opinion is a ratification of the TPG's opinion---in other words, more reassurance especially on a big investment.
Your points about the higher prices and liquidity are valid because that is a reflection of the market.
I have not found your points numbers one and two to be true in all cases.
No one is right in "all" cases. i do think CAC gets it right a large majority of times (just take a look at 20 st gaudens with half CAC and half not at the same grade). Your final line of defense when buying a coin that is PCGS and CAC is to confirm with your own eyes.
I will add one more reason why CAC's opinion is important to me. Consistency. I see so many threads discuss the lack of consistency in numismatics over the years (i.e gradeflation, changing grading standards, etc.). If you follow the CAC census, there is a remarkable amount of consistency. Take for example a 1912-S nickel. The TPG pop for this coin in MS-66 has exploded (and the prices have decreased). However, the CAC stickered pop for this coin is only 3. It was 2 for quite a while and third was recently stickered. Regardless CAC's standards seem consistent and in this case while overall population exploded, CAC stuck to its standards. Many other dates are very similar. WIth all the talk of gradeflation as an issue, I have not seen CAC change its standards over the year> @planetsteve said:
I will add one more reason why CAC's opinion is important to me. Consistency. I see so many threads discuss the lack of consistency in numismatics over the years (i.e gradeflation, changing grading standards, etc.). If you follow the CAC census, there is a remarkable amount of consistency. Take for example a 1912-S nickel. The TPG pop for this coin in MS-66 has exploded (and the prices have decreased). However, the CAC stickered pop for this coin is only 3. It was 2 for quite a while and third was recently stickered. Regardless CAC's standards seem consistent and in this case while overall population exploded, CAC stuck to its standards....
Wait -- wasn't the 1912-S 5c the coin at the center of that flap between some guys and PCGS a few years ago? There was this one grading company -- I want to forget which -- that attacked PCGS for supposed gradeflation, and brought up the census on that very coin as evidence. PCGS' response included the claim that, in fact, they recently received two rolls of these nickels, and that's why the population soared. So: isn't it likely that this cache of newly graded coins could have quickly found new homes without stopping at CAC?
My obligatory two zincolns: when I shop online and look at images of coins worth more than say $300-500, I usually note whether the sticker is there or not. If it isn't, no biggie, it just suggests that the imaged coin may be low-end for the grade. For the series I like and have spent time studying, I don't necessarily need the sticker; I've submitted some coins to CAC, and was rarely surprised by those that weren't approved (less than 10%, on about 50 coins). I also appreciated those learning experiences.
But when it comes to gold, where I'm just lucky to pick up an occasional type piece, I wouldn't buy an Unc coin if it doesn't have a sticker. I don't know much about gold-coin grading and alterations, and I don't think I should have to embark on a years-long learning curve -- with lots of coins bought and sold -- just to pick up a satisfactory type piece.
I think the gist of your post is accurate---a couple of rolls hit the market for grading. I can tell you that a CAC sticker on any 1912-S in 66 will double, triple or quadruple the price so I would be shocked if whoever owns those coins did not submit them
@BillJones said:
Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,
@BillJones said:
Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,
I can give you my answer why it is important:
1) his opinion (and the sticker) represents the opinon of one of the best graders in the world that the coin is solid or strong for the grade (and therefore you are not buying a coin at the bottom of the grade)--that counts for something
2) his opinion represents that the coins has not been doctored--a huge factor
3) it is now a fact that in the large majority of cases a CAC coin (and his opinion) increases the value of the coin
4) his opinion makes the coin more liquid in that there are more buyers and also he makes a market in coins with the CAC sticker
5) his opinion is a ratification of the TPG's opinion---in other words, more reassurance especially on a big investment.
Thanks for your post, it saved me lots of time writing the same basic answer.
@topstuf said:
To simplify the concept, let's just ask whether on any given coin you have, IF you want to sell that coin you would rather have a bean on it or not.
Fair?
sure but you are a dealer you sell coins to put food on the table. Collectors should not need to sell coins constantly and even if they do they are not getting retail . A collector could do just as well financially by not spending like a drunken sailor on the way in.
Dealers make money on the buy side , collectors lose money on the buy side and on the sell side. If CAC helps break even on the way out it might help but staying focused and not mindlessly churning through coins is more reliable.
Seriously if you buy some date mint mark and 6 months later you do it again its ok once in a while but if it happens consistently then you lack control over your impulses and you cost yourself 1000's over a life of collecting.
Train yourself to let a buy go un executed , note how it feels to do that then mark it on the calendar and don't be surprised if 2 weeks later you see the same or a better deal .
IMO it's clear that CAC adds strong value, just look at any coin show.
However, I don't believe most higher valued coins have been sent in to CAC for consideration yet. Example, I bought a $25k+ coin late last year that I thought was solid for the grade but it didn't have a CAC sticker. (The seller said he had not sent it in, but who knows (it's a CAC secret) if someone else had sent it in or not) Anyway, before buying it, I was easily able to figure out that only about 5% of that particular series/date/grade (certified by NGC and PCGS) had been stickered by CAC. To me that means that either most haven't been sent in yet "or" that CAC thinks most are not strong for the grade.
@BillJones said:
Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,
Honestly, I prefer to buy CAC when I can't see the coin in hand. It's not that I think JA has a better eye than I do. It's just that I'm more confident of a coin with 2 opinions on it than one. AND, I also recognize the more definite market value of the CAC coin.
@asheland said:
I like coins that are stickered obviously, but I certainly don't look down on a coin because it doesn't have a sticker.
A lot of my coins are in old holders from old collections that I'm relatively certain have never been sent and I am fine with that. Not to say that I won't possibly send them in myself at some point, but the lack of a sticker doesn't deter me one bit in my decision to buy a coin.
This one doesn't have a sticker, does anyone think that wouldn't pass if sent?
MS64
@topstuf said:
To simplify the concept, let's just ask whether on any given coin you have, IF you want to sell that coin you would rather have a bean on it or not.
Fair?
sure but you are a dealer you sell coins to put food on the table. Collectors should not need to sell coins constantly and even if they do they are not getting retail . A collector could do just as well financially by not spending like a drunken sailor on the way in.
Dealers make money on the buy side , collectors lose money on the buy side and on the sell side. If CAC helps break even on the way out it might help but staying focused and not mindlessly churning through coins is more reliable.
Seriously if you buy some date mint mark and 6 months later you do it again its ok once in a while but if it happens consistently then you lack control over your impulses and you cost yourself 1000's over a life of collecting.
Train yourself to let a buy go un executed , note how it feels to do that then mark it on the calendar and don't be surprised if 2 weeks later you see the same or a better deal .
Get off the boom and bust treadmill
There is some truth here: churning through coins will cost you money. But, you are overlooking the obvious advantage of CAC to collectors who do churn. The clearer value of the CAC coin makes it much easier to sell at a higher percentage of retail. Obviously, you can overpay for any coin whether raw, slabbed or CAC'ed. You can also get a bargain on any coin. But there is a clear advantage in the WHOLESALE market for slab over raw and for CAC over slab over raw.
If you have a raw, common date Morgan in 63 or 64, you are going to get AU prices from any dealer who wants to eat. It is VERY hard to get retail 63 or 64 money for a raw coin. It is much easier for a dealer to get near Bluesheet on 63/64 slabs, so he will pay closer to Bluesheet. And, similarly for the CAC piece.
Now, obviously, if you buy $50 coins and under, slabbing them is stupid and CAC'ing them is doubly stupid because putting $50 in plastic around a $50 coin will only turn it into a $55 coin. But if you have the choice of a CAC, slabbed coin and the same coin raw, you can afford to pay a little more for the CAC'ed coin knowing you can sell it for more later.
@lava said:
The CAC business seems short-sighted to me. While the man behind the business seemingly has few critics, he’s not going to live forever, so then what?
At some point, "original" CAC-stickered coins will be collected just for the sticker
Didn't the original original cac sticker take up the whole back hologram area of the slab? Or am I imagining reading that somethere?
@lava said:
The CAC business seems short-sighted to me. While the man behind the business seemingly has few critics, he’s not going to live forever, so then what?
At some point, "original" CAC-stickered coins will be collected just for the sticker
Didn't the original original cac sticker take up the whole back hologram area of the slab? Or am I imagining reading that somethere?
@topstuf said:
To simplify the concept, let's just ask whether on any given coin you have, IF you want to sell that coin you would rather have a bean on it or not.
Fair?
sure but you are a dealer you sell coins to put food on the table. Collectors should not need to sell coins constantly and even if they do they are not getting retail . A collector could do just as well financially by not spending like a drunken sailor on the way in.
Dealers make money on the buy side , collectors lose money on the buy side and on the sell side. If CAC helps break even on the way out it might help but staying focused and not mindlessly churning through coins is more reliable.
Seriously if you buy some date mint mark and 6 months later you do it again its ok once in a while but if it happens consistently then you lack control over your impulses and you cost yourself 1000's over a life of collecting.
Train yourself to let a buy go un executed , note how it feels to do that then mark it on the calendar and don't be surprised if 2 weeks later you see the same or a better deal .
Get off the boom and bust treadmill
There is some truth here: churning through coins will cost you money. But, you are overlooking the obvious advantage of CAC to collectors who do churn. The clearer value of the CAC coin makes it much easier to sell at a higher percentage of retail. Obviously, you can overpay for any coin whether raw, slabbed or CAC'ed. You can also get a bargain on any coin. But there is a clear advantage in the WHOLESALE market for slab over raw and for CAC over slab over raw.
If you have a raw, common date Morgan in 63 or 64, you are going to get AU prices from any dealer who wants to eat. It is VERY hard to get retail 63 or 64 money for a raw coin. It is much easier for a dealer to get near Bluesheet on 63/64 slabs, so he will pay closer to Bluesheet. And, similarly for the CAC piece.
Now, obviously, if you buy $50 coins and under, slabbing them is stupid and CAC'ing them is doubly stupid because putting $50 in plastic around a $50 coin will only turn it into a $55 coin. But if you have the choice of a CAC, slabbed coin and the same coin raw, you can afford to pay a little more for the CAC'ed coin knowing you can sell it for more later.
If you have a choice of 2 things buy the one with the sticker if you want . I'm not arguing . I'm saying stop worrying about money on resale and learn to get the right coin in one try. This is where the money all goes.
Don't churn through stuff period , thats the mentality of a 5 year old. figure out what you like do your research and buy the right coin. Why would you need to buy it again? How many mistakes can you make and still feel like you know what you are even doing?
If its just the thrill of spending money then lay on the couch and put QVC on.
you are a dealer right? Because I'm an adult if I bought a collectable coin you would be able to note the date and mint mark on your calendar and there would not be any repeats in the next ten years. You wouldn't hate me though as I'd be buying bullion every week. I'd be spending money , I would not be wasting it. You would never see me sell you a coin that you sold me first either. If I didn't want it I would not buy it to begin with
@lava said:
The CAC business seems short-sighted to me. While the man behind the business seemingly has few critics, he’s not going to live forever, so then what?
At some point, "original" CAC-stickered coins will be collected just for the sticker
Didn't the original original cac sticker take up the whole back hologram area of the slab? Or am I imagining reading that somethere?
No — always the green (or gold) bean.
huh... what the heck am I false remembering then..
@privatecoin said:
Buy the coin, not the holder or sticker.
Sell the coin, not the holder or sticker ... I dare you.
Crack out your PCGS/NGC graded coins and sell them raw and see if the coin stands on its own. To think the holder or sticker does not matter is to ignore the current marketplace.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@DIMEMAN said:
I am not a CAC lover and not a CAC hater.....I tolerate CAC.
I see coins with stickers I like and I see coins with stickers that I don't like.
I have some coins with sticker, but most do not. If I see a nice coin without a sticker...….I am NOT suspicious.
I have coins that did have stickers that don't now because they have been sent in for attribution and got reholdered.
Bottom line I couldn't care less about stickers. Stickers or lack there of does not come into my decision making on coin buying.
Well stated. It also fits with my collecting. All but point #2. When I sold my 1848-CAL Quarter Eagle the thread was full of speculation. I bought it from its appearance. There were many asking if it had been to CAC.
If it weren't of any real importance on a coin of that date, I don't know why it would keep coming up.
Many or most (including a dealer who is an ex grader) said it would pass with no problem.
Well it didn't.
I have coins without it that are permanent residents in the collection and they aren't stickered. I don't even intend to submit them.
I also have both. It's on new purchases that I'm seeking the sticker. I also require the same criteria as on ANY of my coins: that they have eye appeal. And, yes, I've seen stickered coins I would NEVER buy.
As to not caring for future value once I'm gone, well that's just not my nature. If I spend money I've earned to buy a coin, whether or not heirs keep or dump the stuff, I'd ....prefer..... that the value holds through time.
@asheland said:
This one doesn't have a sticker, does anyone think that wouldn't pass if sent?
MS64
From what I've seen of JA, he is a bit hesitant on orange saints. (entire coin toning not just splotches here & there)
Possibly he sees it as a dipping issue?
I have one I'd like to send in and see what he thinks but I like it and that's about good enough for me.
Otherwise, that looks like a CAC'able 64 to me. (solid B 64)
@asheland said:
This one doesn't have a sticker, does anyone think that wouldn't pass if sent?
MS64
From what I've seen of JA, he is a bit hesitant on orange saints. (entire coin toning not just splotches here & there)
Possibly he sees it as a dipping issue?
I have one I'd like to send in and see what he thinks but I like it and that's about good enough for me.
Otherwise, that looks like a CAC'able 64 to me. (solid B 64)
@asheland, is that a pretty accurate representation of the coin’s color or is that lighting? Either way, doesn’t look especially orange to me. I haven’t seen many Saints that are as orange in coloration as many Indian half and quarter eagles. Very nice looking coin btw.
Necessary evil, pointless extra layer of complexity, welcomed second opinion, market reality or otherwise, sometimes that little bit of green on a slab makes the reds, blues, oranges and yellows on a nice toner really pop.
I can recognize CAC extra value on coins where there is a separate CAC value in the sheet. But deducting say CWT MV or TPG MV on a non CAC coin - no not a buyer of that idea. The more correct generalization is that bidders in the marketplace may bid up CAC material higher but not always as has been my experience. A big ticket AU in coin sheet may not have separate CAC bid but could realize higher bidding due to its desirability / sticker. Then it is on the seller to get any extra money from buyers. More of a market qualitative process.
I frankly c it as moot issue as my asking price mainly function of cost plus. If I pay more on a CAC coin then it’s priced higher anyhow. Yes a CAC coin bid in sheet at $25000 vs $20000 bid on a non CAC issue recognized as worth more but a common 1922 Peace dollar bid at $36 in ms64 (cdn) such a deduction for non CAC wb an absurdity.
If I bid higher on CAC material it’s because of the coin itself and I see it as a or b material that can sell....at my price. So if TPG price $100, CAC coin most likely priced higher. No free ride in numismatics.
@Broadstruck said:
I've done better walking into shows and out with a far larger checks on older holder graded material that wasn't stickered.
A sticker instantly psychologically hinders the thought of any possible upgrade potential.
Kinda like a + on a slab label will have a buyer spending more time wonder why it didn't make the next higher grade than why it got the plus.
Broadstruck: Even though I am a believer in third, third party grading-CAC-I like the concept of a sheriff with the gradeflation. You raise a very valid point with your possible upgrade point. I have seen several coins graded 66 non CAC later graded 67CAC with a couple 67+'s sprinkled in. Your point is well taken by me. Thx.
@topstuf said:
It's what the lack of one will subtract from the value.
At least that's my opinion and I'm seemingly seeing validation of that more and more.
Really???? Wow, and for the past 40+ yrs I've been enjoying the hobby without pissing away money for or paying an unjustified premium for a silly little green decal that IMO are as equally inconsistent as the grading services opinions.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Keep in mind that what CAC calls an A or B coin that will sticker is not always what other experienced graders or myself would or would not. Take the eagle eye sticker for example. I trust Snow's opinion much more than I do CAC for indian cents because Snow is the leading expert for this series. And yet, when I was doing IC's, some eagle eye stickered coins I had did not sticker with CAC. Who is right here?
I also have some bust coinage that are strong for the grade but nearly blast white. It is very difficult for blast white bust coins to get the bean because apparently this is simply not CAC's preference for what they want to sell. Obviously dipped to get that way, just like 99% of bust coins they have been human assisted, and CAC simply does not like them. Sometimes, I do. Who is right here?
So while I like the green sticker on my coins, I am not too concerned when a coin I have personally selected, or a dealer I trust has, does not bean. Doesn't mean it is a C coin, it just means it is not an A or B to the preferences of CAC.
Disclaimer - >80% of my collection is CAC, but it is just an opinion, learn about coin surfaces and choose a coin accordingly.....
@spacehayduke said:
Keep in mind that what CAC calls an A or B coin that will sticker is not always what other experienced graders or myself would or would not. Take the eagle eye sticker for example. I trust Snow's opinion much more than I do CAC for indian cents because Snow is the leading expert for this series. And yet, when I was doing IC's, some eagle eye stickered coins I had did not sticker with CAC. Who is right here?
Both are right. You have two different experts providing their respective opinions. There is no standard, so there is no single 'right' answer. Snow's opinion may be more informed that Albanese with respect to ICs, but that does not mean the lack of a CAC sticker is 'wrong' or that Snow is 'right.' It also does not mean that on another given day, either expert may change their opinion. Same can be said for Sego with QA stickers.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I am not much of a CAC player nor really active with it beyond business goals. I have been active in the businesss since 1990. I do bid on stickered coins especially if get them below CDN bid for CAC. I can see where investors in big ticket coins say over $500 or $1000 CAC players especially if CAC bid in sheet higher.
My goal is to get somewhere between cost and retail (most likely TPG MV) on the coins in my case at shows and online. For the few stickered coins I have these priced CPG based on the CAC bid if higher than TPG MV which then replaces the target amount (usually TPG MV).
I have stickered coins I feel are A or B coins and some probably not IMO. One needs to formulate their own opinion.
This 1885 CC Morgan is a coin which was sent to CAC and did not sticker. I love the look of this coin and would buy again with the knowledge it did not sticker.
People are really talking about 2 completely different things: personal preference and marketability.
You may like a coin that did not CAC. Kudos. I like some coins that will not slab. But that has (virtually) NOTHING to do with the market value of that coin.
I buy numerous coins every week. I rarely even look at the picture of the coins. If it's a 65 no CAC, I pay 65 no CAC money (wholesale). If it's a 65 CAC, I pay 65 CAC money. Guess what. The 65 CAC money is ALWAYS more.
CCE and CDN Exchange trade millions of dollars in coins, sight unseen based simply on the combination of holder and CAC. To deny the market for this material is, frankly, silly.
The fact that you have a very pretty coin that you love dearly and paid more than CAC money for is simply an anecdote that has (virtually) NOTHING to do with the market.
If you are a collector, you are not trying to make a market for coins. You aren't even trying to make money in the coin market. So your personal feelings about a particular coin or CAC stickers in general is irrelevant to the market. Like it or not, CAC ADDS VALUE in the marketplace. You personally don't have to insist on CAC or pay more for CAC. You can scrape the distracting green sticker off if you want. But you cannot claim that CAC does not change the value in the market without undermining your own credibility.
If you are a collector, you are not trying to make a market for coins. You aren't even trying to make money in the coin market. So your personal feelings about a particular coin or CAC stickers in general is irrelevant to the market. Like it or not, CAC ADDS VALUE in the marketplace. You personally don't have to insist on CAC or pay more for CAC. You can scrape the distracting green sticker off if you want. But you cannot claim that CAC does not change the value in the market without undermining your own credibility.
I've made no claim to credibility . Which is more than I can say for most
If you are a collector, you are not trying to make a market for coins. You aren't even trying to make money in the coin market. So your personal feelings about a particular coin or CAC stickers in general is irrelevant to the market. Like it or not, CAC ADDS VALUE in the marketplace. You personally don't have to insist on CAC or pay more for CAC. You can scrape the distracting green sticker off if you want. But you cannot claim that CAC does not change the value in the market without undermining your own credibility.
I've made no claim to credibility . Which is more than I can say for most
In the words of Dirty Harry: "A man has to know his limitations."
Yep. You see a nice coin now and wonder why it didn’t CAC. Reality is of course many have never been to CAC. But I agree 100%
Yep. You see a nice coin now and wonder why it didn’t CAC. Reality is of course many have never been to CAC. But I agree 100%
statements like these are why the argument that the "sticker" doesn't create or enhance bias don't hold water. everyone seems to be so cognizant of CAC that they place that pre-requisite ahead of actually looking at coins. it is the same phenomenon which took place and persists to this day about TPG's and encapsulation. the mantra used to be "If it's not in a holder......................." about raw coins.
i can only wonder what will be next because If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it.
I agree with one of the comments above that a CAC sticker is helpful if you’re buying something off eBay or some other auction sight and can’t review it in hand. Gives you an extra layer of confidence in the coin. I don’t like it that CAC will sticker dipped early gold. I find such coins unappealing, even if they are strong for the grade from a details standpoint.
If the grading efficiency ebbs and flows like tides... how does or is CAC standards going to shift? CAC sticker is helpful if you’re buying something off eBay or some other auction sight and can’t review it in hand. Gives you an extra layer of confidence in the coin
same type of bias present --- i read in bold "If everyone else's standard changes then why not JA, is he supposed to be the pillar of consistency??" but that gets clarified because buying sight unseen you know the grade is right with a CAC sticker??
how is it that the Hobby has changed to think like this??
@keets said: If the grading efficiency ebbs and flows like tides... how does or is CAC standards going to shift? CAC sticker is helpful if you’re buying something off eBay or some other auction sight and can’t review it in hand. Gives you an extra layer of confidence in the coin
same type of bias present --- i read in bold "If everyone else's standard changes then why not JA, is he supposed to be the pillar of consistency??" but that gets clarified because buying sight unseen you know the grade is right with a CAC sticker??
how is it that the Hobby has changed to think like this??
@asheland said:
This one doesn't have a sticker, does anyone think that wouldn't pass if sent?
MS64
From what I've seen of JA, he is a bit hesitant on orange saints. (entire coin toning not just splotches here & there)
Possibly he sees it as a dipping issue?
I have one I'd like to send in and see what he thinks but I like it and that's about good enough for me.
Otherwise, that looks like a CAC'able 64 to me. (solid B 64)
It's actually not as orange as the picture makes it look. It's a rich yellow.
@asheland said:
This one doesn't have a sticker, does anyone think that wouldn't pass if sent?
MS64
From what I've seen of JA, he is a bit hesitant on orange saints. (entire coin toning not just splotches here & there)
Possibly he sees it as a dipping issue?
I have one I'd like to send in and see what he thinks but I like it and that's about good enough for me.
Otherwise, that looks like a CAC'able 64 to me. (solid B 64)
@asheland, is that a pretty accurate representation of the coin’s color or is that lighting? Either way, doesn’t look especially orange to me. I haven’t seen many Saints that are as orange in coloration as many Indian half and quarter eagles. Very nice looking coin btw.
Yeah, everyone's monitors may vary, it's not particularly orange, but a rich, frosty yellow color.
TPG's and now CAC is a tide that will raise all boats regardless of individual opinion. I appreciate TPG's and CAC, but still buy the coin. I've seen high MS slabbed coins, some with CAC, that I consider junk/melt due to terrible eye appeal. I will buy raw with some coins, but never with gold (I primarily collect pre-33 US gold). I will buy a slabbed coin sans CAC if I like it.
Whether you agree or not, CAC has done considerable damage. The value of your coins rests in the hands of one man. What a pathetic turn of events.
It’s either, yeah, I agree with the grade and no sticker. Or nope, I think it’s better, and you get the green. Just another persons opinion. And we all know THAT definition.
Where will it end?
I’m with the @BillJones camp on this one. Another way to extract more money from the collector.
Comments
I think the gist of your post is accurate---a couple of rolls hit the market for grading. I can tell you that a CAC sticker on any 1912-S in 66 will double, triple or quadruple the price so I would be shocked if whoever owns those coins did not submit them
Thanks for your post, it saved me lots of time writing the same basic answer.
sure but you are a dealer you sell coins to put food on the table. Collectors should not need to sell coins constantly and even if they do they are not getting retail . A collector could do just as well financially by not spending like a drunken sailor on the way in.
Dealers make money on the buy side , collectors lose money on the buy side and on the sell side. If CAC helps break even on the way out it might help but staying focused and not mindlessly churning through coins is more reliable.
Seriously if you buy some date mint mark and 6 months later you do it again its ok once in a while but if it happens consistently then you lack control over your impulses and you cost yourself 1000's over a life of collecting.
Train yourself to let a buy go un executed , note how it feels to do that then mark it on the calendar and don't be surprised if 2 weeks later you see the same or a better deal .
Get off the boom and bust treadmill
IMO it's clear that CAC adds strong value, just look at any coin show.
However, I don't believe most higher valued coins have been sent in to CAC for consideration yet. Example, I bought a $25k+ coin late last year that I thought was solid for the grade but it didn't have a CAC sticker. (The seller said he had not sent it in,
but who knows (it's a CAC secret) if someone else had sent it in or not) Anyway, before buying it, I was easily able to figure out that only about 5% of that particular series/date/grade (certified by NGC and PCGS) had been stickered by CAC. To me that means that either most haven't been sent in yet "or" that CAC thinks most are not strong for the grade.
Honestly, I prefer to buy CAC when I can't see the coin in hand. It's not that I think JA has a better eye than I do. It's just that I'm more confident of a coin with 2 opinions on it than one. AND, I also recognize the more definite market value of the CAC coin.
I don't think that would CAC.
There is some truth here: churning through coins will cost you money. But, you are overlooking the obvious advantage of CAC to collectors who do churn. The clearer value of the CAC coin makes it much easier to sell at a higher percentage of retail. Obviously, you can overpay for any coin whether raw, slabbed or CAC'ed. You can also get a bargain on any coin. But there is a clear advantage in the WHOLESALE market for slab over raw and for CAC over slab over raw.
If you have a raw, common date Morgan in 63 or 64, you are going to get AU prices from any dealer who wants to eat. It is VERY hard to get retail 63 or 64 money for a raw coin. It is much easier for a dealer to get near Bluesheet on 63/64 slabs, so he will pay closer to Bluesheet. And, similarly for the CAC piece.
Now, obviously, if you buy $50 coins and under, slabbing them is stupid and CAC'ing them is doubly stupid because putting $50 in plastic around a $50 coin will only turn it into a $55 coin. But if you have the choice of a CAC, slabbed coin and the same coin raw, you can afford to pay a little more for the CAC'ed coin knowing you can sell it for more later.
This thread is still here?
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Didn't the original original cac sticker take up the whole back hologram area of the slab? Or am I imagining reading that somethere?
Collector, occasional seller
No — always the green (or gold) bean.
If you have a choice of 2 things buy the one with the sticker if you want . I'm not arguing . I'm saying stop worrying about money on resale and learn to get the right coin in one try. This is where the money all goes.
Don't churn through stuff period , thats the mentality of a 5 year old. figure out what you like do your research and buy the right coin. Why would you need to buy it again? How many mistakes can you make and still feel like you know what you are even doing?
If its just the thrill of spending money then lay on the couch and put QVC on.
@jmlanzaf
you are a dealer right? Because I'm an adult if I bought a collectable coin you would be able to note the date and mint mark on your calendar and there would not be any repeats in the next ten years. You wouldn't hate me though as I'd be buying bullion every week. I'd be spending money , I would not be wasting it. You would never see me sell you a coin that you sold me first either. If I didn't want it I would not buy it to begin with
huh... what the heck am I false remembering then..
Collector, occasional seller
Sell the coin, not the holder or sticker ... I dare you.
Crack out your PCGS/NGC graded coins and sell them raw and see if the coin stands on its own. To think the holder or sticker does not matter is to ignore the current marketplace.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
How will you know after JA & his verification website are gone?
Trust a dealer?
None of my coins have beans now, although some did when I bought them.
My Saint Set
I am not a CAC lover and not a CAC hater.....I tolerate CAC.
I see coins with stickers I like and I see coins with stickers that I don't like.
I have some coins with sticker, but most do not. If I see a nice coin without a sticker...….I am NOT suspicious.
I have coins that did have stickers that don't now because they have been sent in for attribution and got reholdered.
Bottom line I couldn't care less about stickers. Stickers or lack there of does not come into my decision making on coin buying.
CAC DOES sticker mint errors!
IMG_9355.PNG
Well stated. It also fits with my collecting. All but point #2. When I sold my 1848-CAL Quarter Eagle the thread was full of speculation. I bought it from its appearance. There were many asking if it had been to CAC.
If it weren't of any real importance on a coin of that date, I don't know why it would keep coming up.
Many or most (including a dealer who is an ex grader) said it would pass with no problem.
Well it didn't.
I have coins without it that are permanent residents in the collection and they aren't stickered. I don't even intend to submit them.
I also have both. It's on new purchases that I'm seeking the sticker. I also require the same criteria as on ANY of my coins: that they have eye appeal. And, yes, I've seen stickered coins I would NEVER buy.
As to not caring for future value once I'm gone, well that's just not my nature. If I spend money I've earned to buy a coin, whether or not heirs keep or dump the stuff, I'd ....prefer..... that the value holds through time.
Just because it's here doesn't mean you have to do it.
From what I've seen of JA, he is a bit hesitant on orange saints. (entire coin toning not just splotches here & there)
Possibly he sees it as a dipping issue?
I have one I'd like to send in and see what he thinks but I like it and that's about good enough for me.
Otherwise, that looks like a CAC'able 64 to me. (solid B 64)
My Saint Set
You can rest assured none of my Barber Half's have been sent to CAC by me!
@asheland, is that a pretty accurate representation of the coin’s color or is that lighting? Either way, doesn’t look especially orange to me. I haven’t seen many Saints that are as orange in coloration as many Indian half and quarter eagles. Very nice looking coin btw.
Necessary evil, pointless extra layer of complexity, welcomed second opinion, market reality or otherwise, sometimes that little bit of green on a slab makes the reds, blues, oranges and yellows on a nice toner really pop.
I can recognize CAC extra value on coins where there is a separate CAC value in the sheet. But deducting say CWT MV or TPG MV on a non CAC coin - no not a buyer of that idea. The more correct generalization is that bidders in the marketplace may bid up CAC material higher but not always as has been my experience. A big ticket AU in coin sheet may not have separate CAC bid but could realize higher bidding due to its desirability / sticker. Then it is on the seller to get any extra money from buyers. More of a market qualitative process.
I frankly c it as moot issue as my asking price mainly function of cost plus. If I pay more on a CAC coin then it’s priced higher anyhow. Yes a CAC coin bid in sheet at $25000 vs $20000 bid on a non CAC issue recognized as worth more but a common 1922 Peace dollar bid at $36 in ms64 (cdn) such a deduction for non CAC wb an absurdity.
If I bid higher on CAC material it’s because of the coin itself and I see it as a or b material that can sell....at my price. So if TPG price $100, CAC coin most likely priced higher. No free ride in numismatics.
Broadstruck: Even though I am a believer in third, third party grading-CAC-I like the concept of a sheriff with the gradeflation. You raise a very valid point with your possible upgrade point. I have seen several coins graded 66 non CAC later graded 67CAC with a couple 67+'s sprinkled in. Your point is well taken by me. Thx.
Really???? Wow, and for the past 40+ yrs I've been enjoying the hobby without pissing away money for or paying an unjustified premium for a silly little green decal that IMO are as equally inconsistent as the grading services opinions.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Keep in mind that what CAC calls an A or B coin that will sticker is not always what other experienced graders or myself would or would not. Take the eagle eye sticker for example. I trust Snow's opinion much more than I do CAC for indian cents because Snow is the leading expert for this series. And yet, when I was doing IC's, some eagle eye stickered coins I had did not sticker with CAC. Who is right here?
I also have some bust coinage that are strong for the grade but nearly blast white. It is very difficult for blast white bust coins to get the bean because apparently this is simply not CAC's preference for what they want to sell. Obviously dipped to get that way, just like 99% of bust coins they have been human assisted, and CAC simply does not like them. Sometimes, I do. Who is right here?
So while I like the green sticker on my coins, I am not too concerned when a coin I have personally selected, or a dealer I trust has, does not bean. Doesn't mean it is a C coin, it just means it is not an A or B to the preferences of CAC.
Disclaimer - >80% of my collection is CAC, but it is just an opinion, learn about coin surfaces and choose a coin accordingly.....
Best, SH
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Both are right. You have two different experts providing their respective opinions. There is no standard, so there is no single 'right' answer. Snow's opinion may be more informed that Albanese with respect to ICs, but that does not mean the lack of a CAC sticker is 'wrong' or that Snow is 'right.' It also does not mean that on another given day, either expert may change their opinion. Same can be said for Sego with QA stickers.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I am not much of a CAC player nor really active with it beyond business goals. I have been active in the businesss since 1990. I do bid on stickered coins especially if get them below CDN bid for CAC. I can see where investors in big ticket coins say over $500 or $1000 CAC players especially if CAC bid in sheet higher.
My goal is to get somewhere between cost and retail (most likely TPG MV) on the coins in my case at shows and online. For the few stickered coins I have these priced CPG based on the CAC bid if higher than TPG MV which then replaces the target amount (usually TPG MV).
I have stickered coins I feel are A or B coins and some probably not IMO. One needs to formulate their own opinion.
This 1885 CC Morgan is a coin which was sent to CAC and did not sticker. I love the look of this coin and would buy again with the knowledge it did not sticker.
I love/hate these CAC threads.
People are really talking about 2 completely different things: personal preference and marketability.
You may like a coin that did not CAC. Kudos. I like some coins that will not slab. But that has (virtually) NOTHING to do with the market value of that coin.
I buy numerous coins every week. I rarely even look at the picture of the coins. If it's a 65 no CAC, I pay 65 no CAC money (wholesale). If it's a 65 CAC, I pay 65 CAC money. Guess what. The 65 CAC money is ALWAYS more.
CCE and CDN Exchange trade millions of dollars in coins, sight unseen based simply on the combination of holder and CAC. To deny the market for this material is, frankly, silly.
The fact that you have a very pretty coin that you love dearly and paid more than CAC money for is simply an anecdote that has (virtually) NOTHING to do with the market.
If you are a collector, you are not trying to make a market for coins. You aren't even trying to make money in the coin market. So your personal feelings about a particular coin or CAC stickers in general is irrelevant to the market. Like it or not, CAC ADDS VALUE in the marketplace. You personally don't have to insist on CAC or pay more for CAC. You can scrape the distracting green sticker off if you want. But you cannot claim that CAC does not change the value in the market without undermining your own credibility.
I've made no claim to credibility . Which is more than I can say for most
In the words of Dirty Harry: "A man has to know his limitations."
Yep. You see a nice coin now and wonder why it didn’t CAC. Reality is of course many have never been to CAC. But I agree 100%
Yep. You see a nice coin now and wonder why it didn’t CAC. Reality is of course many have never been to CAC. But I agree 100%
statements like these are why the argument that the "sticker" doesn't create or enhance bias don't hold water. everyone seems to be so cognizant of CAC that they place that pre-requisite ahead of actually looking at coins. it is the same phenomenon which took place and persists to this day about TPG's and encapsulation. the mantra used to be "If it's not in a holder......................." about raw coins.
i can only wonder what will be next because If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it.
The new crack out game.
I have always heard NGC has their grading standards as does PCGS.
If the grading efficiency ebbs and flows like tides... how does or is CAC standards going to shift?
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I agree with one of the comments above that a CAC sticker is helpful if you’re buying something off eBay or some other auction sight and can’t review it in hand. Gives you an extra layer of confidence in the coin. I don’t like it that CAC will sticker dipped early gold. I find such coins unappealing, even if they are strong for the grade from a details standpoint.
If the grading efficiency ebbs and flows like tides... how does or is CAC standards going to shift?
CAC sticker is helpful if you’re buying something off eBay or some other auction sight and can’t review it in hand. Gives you an extra layer of confidence in the coin
same type of bias present --- i read in bold "If everyone else's standard changes then why not JA, is he supposed to be the pillar of consistency??" but that gets clarified because buying sight unseen you know the grade is right with a CAC sticker??
how is it that the Hobby has changed to think like this??
fear laziness and greed
It's actually not as orange as the picture makes it look. It's a rich yellow.
My YouTube Channel
Yeah, everyone's monitors may vary, it's not particularly orange, but a rich, frosty yellow color.
My YouTube Channel
I'd take Rick Snow's Photoseal on a Flyer or IHC over a sticker.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
One man's POV across multiple series better than the accumulated knowledge of PCGS or NGC?
Come on...
Not opposed to CAC and anything that makes me select better coins and grade better...
That is a positive.
Another level of fees... is not a positive.
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TPG's and now CAC is a tide that will raise all boats regardless of individual opinion. I appreciate TPG's and CAC, but still buy the coin. I've seen high MS slabbed coins, some with CAC, that I consider junk/melt due to terrible eye appeal. I will buy raw with some coins, but never with gold (I primarily collect pre-33 US gold). I will buy a slabbed coin sans CAC if I like it.
I will pose a question which I expect to be called "unanswerable". Here goes:
If I buy 100 pre 33 $20 gold pieces on E-Bay (randomly) graded 60-64, how many will receive the green sticker?
Anecdotally, I'll say 30-50%.
Whether you agree or not, CAC has done considerable damage. The value of your coins rests in the hands of one man. What a pathetic turn of events.
It’s either, yeah, I agree with the grade and no sticker. Or nope, I think it’s better, and you get the green. Just another persons opinion. And we all know THAT definition.
Where will it end?
I’m with the @BillJones camp on this one. Another way to extract more money from the collector.
Cheers
Bob
My guess:
If you buy them on eBay, perhaps 1%
If you buy them from various coin dealers around the county, perhaps 20%
He who knows he has enough is rich.