It's not what a CAC sticker will add to the value of a coin

topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

It's what the lack of one will subtract from the value.
At least that's my opinion and I'm seemingly seeing validation of that more and more.

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Comments

  • No HeadlightsNo Headlights Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭

    Yep. You see a nice coin now and wonder why it didn’t CAC. Reality is of course many have never been to CAC. But I agree 100%

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 8:16AM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Not one of my coins has a CAC sticker.

    All of my coins are top shelf on their own.

    I used to do that, too.
    Not any longer. Questions on stuff I've sold support my opinion to a VERY large degree.

    (However, if it's errors you're talking about I don't think it matters.)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 18,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 8:19AM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Not one of my coins has a CAC sticker.

    All of my coins are top shelf on their own.

    Well, yours are errors and not as fungible as non-error coins. Does CAC certify errors?

    My top shelf exonumia don’t have stickers either but they also aren’t qualified for them.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,

    BOY DO I AGREE WITH THAT !!
    However...... as much as I wish they had never begun, I am simply seeing too much evidence that it is overtaking the hobby and being a huge factor.
    Just like slabs were initially controversial and declared unnecessary, I see the same parallel in the stickers.
    There's too much "assumption of failure to pass" to overlook.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 18,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 8:34AM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @Zoins said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    Not one of my coins has a CAC sticker.

    All of my coins are top shelf on their own.

    Well, yours are errors and not as fungible as non-error coins. Does CAC certify errors?

    My top shelf exonumia don’t have stickers either but they also aren’t qualified for them.

    CAC does not do errors, Thank God.

    The good thing about errors and exonumia is that they may be doctored a lot less and also cracked/upgraded a lot less.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 115 ✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,

    I agree with this argument completely. The issue is the market value is higher with the sticker than not so that’s why I personally prefer my newps to have a sticker.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 18,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 8:45AM

    @topstuf said:
    It's not what a CAC sticker will add to the value of a coin
    It's what the lack of one will subtract from the value.
    At least that's my opinion and I'm seemingly seeing validation of that more and more.

    Does this mean a CAC coin will match the price guide and a non-CAC is below price guide?

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @topstuf said:
    It's not what a CAC sticker will add to the value of a coin
    It's what the lack of one will subtract from the value.
    At least that's my opinion and I'm seemingly seeing validation of that more and more.

    Does this mean a CAC coin will match the price guide and a non-CAC is below price guide?

    I have no idea. I do know that there's a coin I've been looking at at a dealer who sells top tier stuff and it remains available far longer than normal for his inventory. It has no sticker. It's 10 grand.

    Which would you buy for 10k? A pretty coin with no sticker or a pretty coin WITH one?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 18,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 8:59AM

    @topstuf said:
    Which would you buy for 10k? A pretty coin with no sticker or a pretty coin WITH one?

    I'd need to see the coins and how pretty they are. Many pretty coins don't look the same.

  • PhillyJoePhillyJoe Posts: 2,596 ✭✭✭

    A green sticker just tells me that PCGS or NGC got it right? I don't think that helps me personally. A gold sticker would have me think about resubmitting however.

    The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition. image
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,836 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw some un-stickered stuff go for high money in the recent Heritage Long Beach auction.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 12,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like coins that are stickered obviously, but I certainly don't look down on a coin because it doesn't have a sticker.
    A lot of my coins are in old holders from old collections that I'm relatively certain have never been sent and I am fine with that. Not to say that I won't possibly send them in myself at some point, but the lack of a sticker doesn't deter me one bit in my decision to buy a coin.

    This one doesn't have a sticker, does anyone think that wouldn't pass if sent?

    MS64

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 115 ✭✭✭

    @PhillyJoe said:
    A green sticker just tells me that PCGS or NGC got it right? I don't think that helps me personally. A gold sticker would have me think about resubmitting however.

    Kind of. A green sticker means that PCGS and NGC got it right AND it meets CAC criteria AND it’s high end for the grade. An A or B coin for the grade.

  • lavalava Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭

    The CAC business seems short-sighted to me. While the man behind the business seemingly has few critics, he’s not going to live forever, so then what?

    I brake for ear bars.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 18,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 9:42AM

    @coinbuf said:
    For the very same reason that one flavor of plastic is so very important to so many people here

    I like honey mustard :)

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PhillyJoe said:
    A green sticker just tells me that PCGS or NGC got it right? I don't think that helps me personally. A gold sticker would have me think about resubmitting however.

    I could show you a gold CAC approved coin that might get a "details" grade if I were to re-submit it. It was one of my big mistakes when CAC first came on the scene.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible.
  • oldstandardoldstandard Posts: 330 ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 9:51AM

    I think it has really made a change in the industry for the worst, I think to many people make a decision on the Sticker. on gold especially the inconstancy of what gets sticker has made it hard in gold. I had saved three coins all gold $2.5 Indians one had a CAC sticker The two the did not pass but where just incredible coins so I covered up all the grades only one person got it right out of about 30 people. The gentlemen said I picked the one thinking it would be the coin he thought would have not received a sticker since I said he would be surprised I did not say that to the others just told them to pick the coin. My second incident I had a beautiful toned Morgan in 66 a gentlemen said he love the coin and asked if it had been to CAC I said no which it had not been to CAC but I told him it would sticker. On the Morgans they sticker about anything that's is correct for the grade not like the game in the gold. He could not put the coin down trip after trip after trip to the table the last trip he made the coin had sold it then went to CAC and it did sticker now the guy that had original wanted the coin had us make an offer to the purchaser for $350 more then I was offering it to him it just seem silly.

  • GazesGazes Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    @Gazes said:

    @BillJones said:
    Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,

    I can give you my answer why it is important:

    1) his opinion (and the sticker) represents the opinon of one of the best graders in the world that the coin is solid or strong for the grade (and therefore you are not buying a coin at the bottom of the grade)--that counts for something
    2) his opinion represents that the coins has not been doctored--a huge factor
    3) it is now a fact that in the large majority of cases a CAC coin (and his opinion) increases the value of the coin
    4) his opinion makes the coin more liquid in that there are more buyers and also he makes a market in coins with the CAC sticker
    5) his opinion is a ratification of the TPG's opinion---in other words, more reassurance especially on a big investment.

    Your points about the higher prices and liquidity are valid because that is a reflection of the market.

    I have not found your points numbers one and two to be true in all cases.

    No one is right in "all" cases. i do think CAC gets it right a large majority of times (just take a look at 20 st gaudens with half CAC and half not at the same grade). Your final line of defense when buying a coin that is PCGS and CAC is to confirm with your own eyes.

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,

    Because when you go to sell the coin that one mans opinion is very important.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Common sense to me is ...... CAC has to stick with their high standard qualifying for stickers otherwise too many CACs would make them more common and then what? CAC over CAC? :s :#

    I am waiting for the cream to come up but my pocket may not be deep enough :)

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 8,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,

    Nothing really has changed. Before CAC, many had the same thoughts about slabbed coins. It used to be collectors and dealers wondered why a 'nice' raw coin was not in a slab. Now, to some, a 'nice' slabbed coin without a CAC sticker is suspect. Heaven help the lowly 'nice' coin without plastic or a sticker ... might as well spend it. ;)

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Funny, isn't all this why third party grading started in the first place?

    Collector, occasional seller

  • washingtonrainbowswashingtonrainbows Posts: 230 ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 3:34PM

    @lava said:
    The CAC business seems short-sighted to me. While the man behind the business seemingly has few critics, he’s not going to live forever, so then what?

    Has to be a CAC disciple, @specialist ?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 18,084 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 10:49AM

    @lava said:
    The CAC business seems short-sighted to me. While the man behind the business seemingly has few critics, he’s not going to live forever, so then what?

    Prices go up even more as they are now history?

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 252 ✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:
    It's what the lack of one will subtract from the value.
    At least that's my opinion and I'm seemingly seeing validation of that more and more.

    Do you believe the same thing about what the lack of a PCGS grade/holder subtracts from the value of an NGC (or other grading company's) coin?
    If not, why not?

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Value is perceived, as always. Tweet that.

  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 511 ✭✭✭✭

    Buy the coin, not the holder or sticker.

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 40,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @skier07 said:

    @BillJones said:
    Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,

    Because when you go to sell the coin that one mans opinion is very important.

    So, it's about the sell ! I got it, now.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @topstuf said:
    It's what the lack of one will subtract from the value.
    At least that's my opinion and I'm seemingly seeing validation of that more and more.

    Do you believe the same thing about what the lack of a PCGS grade/holder subtracts from the value of an NGC (or other grading company's) coin?
    If not, why not?

    Rightly or wrongly, yes I do.
    It's again just market reality. "Buy the coin--not the slab/sticker/dealer" is still valid and a good policy.
    I am NOT a fan of CAC.
    I believe that they are harming the hobby but that's not the issue here.
    All things equal, PCGS will BRING (if not warrant) a more consistent market share than will any other TPG.
    Again.... market reality.
    The point of this thread is to state MY opinion that if ANY coin comes up for sale, the sticker will either add or increase the market price and the lack of one will lead to uncertainty IN SOME CASES and even to discounting because of the uncertainty and ...growing... perception that the bean is the better coin.

    All other factors equal. I could just as easily go the "it doesn't matter" route, but it wouldn't be what's happening.

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gotta slab it then CAC it then if its gold reslab hopefully at a higher grade then what ? Re CAC obviously

    Sounds like a lot of work for some dealer to buy it after I drop dead for 20% of grey sheet. Oh that gold sticker doesn't mean anything kid

    I'll just take more coins instead .

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 12,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To simplify the concept, let's just ask whether on any given coin you have, IF you want to sell that coin you would rather have a bean on it or not.

    Fair?

  • GazesGazes Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gazes said:

    @BillJones said:

    @Gazes said:

    @BillJones said:
    Too many collectors are concerned with whether or not a coin has this sticker. Some will not purchase a coin for their collection if it doesn't have one. I have yet to understand why the opinion of one man is so important to so many people,

    I can give you my answer why it is important:

    1) his opinion (and the sticker) represents the opinon of one of the best graders in the world that the coin is solid or strong for the grade (and therefore you are not buying a coin at the bottom of the grade)--that counts for something
    2) his opinion represents that the coins has not been doctored--a huge factor
    3) it is now a fact that in the large majority of cases a CAC coin (and his opinion) increases the value of the coin
    4) his opinion makes the coin more liquid in that there are more buyers and also he makes a market in coins with the CAC sticker
    5) his opinion is a ratification of the TPG's opinion---in other words, more reassurance especially on a big investment.

    Your points about the higher prices and liquidity are valid because that is a reflection of the market.

    I have not found your points numbers one and two to be true in all cases.

    No one is right in "all" cases. i do think CAC gets it right a large majority of times (just take a look at 20 st gaudens with half CAC and half not at the same grade). Your final line of defense when buying a coin that is PCGS and CAC is to confirm with your own eyes.

    I will add one more reason why CAC's opinion is important to me. Consistency. I see so many threads discuss the lack of consistency in numismatics over the years (i.e gradeflation, changing grading standards, etc.). If you follow the CAC census, there is a remarkable amount of consistency. Take for example a 1912-S nickel. The TPG pop for this coin in MS-66 has exploded (and the prices have decreased). However, the CAC stickered pop for this coin is only 3. It was 2 for quite a while and third was recently stickered. Regardless CAC's standards seem consistent and in this case while overall population exploded, CAC stuck to its standards. Many other dates are very similar. WIth all the talk of gradeflation as an issue, I have not seen CAC change its standards over the years.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 252 ✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @topstuf said:
    It's what the lack of one will subtract from the value.
    At least that's my opinion and I'm seemingly seeing validation of that more and more.

    Do you believe the same thing about what the lack of a PCGS grade/holder subtracts from the value of an NGC (or other grading company's) coin?
    If not, why not?

    Rightly or wrongly, yes I do.
    It's again just market reality. "Buy the coin--not the slab/sticker/dealer" is still valid and a good policy.
    I am NOT a fan of CAC.
    I believe that they are harming the hobby but that's not the issue here.
    All things equal, PCGS will BRING (if not warrant) a more consistent market share than will any other TPG.
    Again.... market reality.
    The point of this thread is to state MY opinion that if ANY coin comes up for sale, the sticker will either add or increase the market price and the lack of one will lead to uncertainty IN SOME CASES and even to discounting because of the uncertainty and ...growing... perception that the bean is the better coin.

    All other factors equal. I could just as easily go the "it doesn't matter" route, but it wouldn't be what's happening.

    Thank you and I appreciate your consistency.

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,750 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lava said:
    The CAC business seems short-sighted to me. While the man behind the business seemingly has few critics, he’s not going to live forever, so then what?

    At some point, "original" CAC-stickered coins will be collected just for the sticker :)

  • ARCOARCO Posts: 3,588 ✭✭✭✭

    Well, whether we agree or not, the market place has placed a higher premium on CAC stickered coins. We are all buying beans and plastic and hoping that the coin inside is enjoyable to look at.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 11:47AM

    I've done better walking into shows and out with a far larger checks on older holder graded material that wasn't stickered.

    A sticker instantly psychologically hinders the thought of any possible upgrade potential.

    Kinda like a + on a slab label will have a buyer spending more time wonder why it didn't make the next higher grade than why it got the plus.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 27,388 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 11:47AM

    @ARCO said:
    Well, whether we agree or not, the market place has placed a higher premium on CAC stickered coins. We are all buying beans and plastic and hoping that the coin inside is enjoyable to look at.

    No all of us. I love the coins I have, but I am virtually done with buying U.S. coins. The last piece I bought was a Columbian half dollar because it was in a leather pouch in which it was sold in 1893.

    I will keep my Proof set string going and perhaps buy some modern commemoratives, but that will be it.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible.
  • planetsteveplanetsteve Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭

    @Gazes said:

    I will add one more reason why CAC's opinion is important to me. Consistency. I see so many threads discuss the lack of consistency in numismatics over the years (i.e gradeflation, changing grading standards, etc.). If you follow the CAC census, there is a remarkable amount of consistency. Take for example a 1912-S nickel. The TPG pop for this coin in MS-66 has exploded (and the prices have decreased). However, the CAC stickered pop for this coin is only 3. It was 2 for quite a while and third was recently stickered. Regardless CAC's standards seem consistent and in this case while overall population exploded, CAC stuck to its standards....

    Wait -- wasn't the 1912-S 5c the coin at the center of that flap between some guys and PCGS a few years ago? There was this one grading company -- I want to forget which -- that attacked PCGS for supposed gradeflation, and brought up the census on that very coin as evidence. PCGS' response included the claim that, in fact, they recently received two rolls of these nickels, and that's why the population soared. So: isn't it likely that this cache of newly graded coins could have quickly found new homes without stopping at CAC?

    My obligatory two zincolns: when I shop online and look at images of coins worth more than say $300-500, I usually note whether the sticker is there or not. If it isn't, no biggie, it just suggests that the imaged coin may be low-end for the grade. For the series I like and have spent time studying, I don't necessarily need the sticker; I've submitted some coins to CAC, and was rarely surprised by those that weren't approved (less than 10%, on about 50 coins). I also appreciated those learning experiences.

    But when it comes to gold, where I'm just lucky to pick up an occasional type piece, I wouldn't buy an Unc coin if it doesn't have a sticker. I don't know much about gold-coin grading and alterations, and I don't think I should have to embark on a years-long learning curve -- with lots of coins bought and sold -- just to pick up a satisfactory type piece.

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