Julian Edelman vs Barry Bonds

craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

I am sure everyone on facebook has seen this post, I just saw it last night.

"Barry Bonds: hits literally 762 HRs

MLB Writers: Sorry, we believe you did steroids. You can't be in the Hall of Fame.

Julian Edelman: literally tests positive for PEDS this season

NFL Writers 10 minutes into the Super Bowl: Is Julian Edelman a Hall of Famer???"

Makes for an interesting dichotomy, how baseball and football players are perceived.
I would imagine Julius Peppers will make the hall of fame even though he was busted in 2003.

now having lived my entire life in New England, I am a homer. Should Edelman be considered this seriously for the HOF given the steroid use?

«13

Comments

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No HOF for juicers in any sport.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 19,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Edelman defines a HOF’er in my opinion. His Playoff heroics are probably second to none and I really mean that, the clutch catches in key spots that he has made are too many to even count. The guy came off an injury and did PEDS to speed up his recovery, yes I’m a homer but I couldn’t care less about using modern medicine to recover from an injury. The guys regular season stats are not much in comparison to other HOF WR numbers but let’s talk about who has accomplished more? HOF era who have great regular season numbers like Moss, T.O or a guy like Edelman who has ridiculous playoff accolades.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    Edelman defines a HOF’er in my opinion. His Playoff heroics are probably second to none and I really mean that, the clutch catches in key spots that he has made are too many to even count. The guy came off an injury and did PEDS to speed up his recovery, yes I’m a homer but I couldn’t care less about using modern medicine to recover from an injury. The guys regular season stats are not much in comparison to other HOF WR numbers but let’s talk about who has accomplished more? HOF era who have great regular season numbers like Moss, T.O or a guy like Edelman who has ridiculous playoff accolades.

    Good thoughts Perkdog, how do you feel about PED users in other sports? Should Mcgwire or Bonds be disregarded from the HOF ballot because of either admission of PED use or accusations of use like they are for many writers?

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    his stats are not good enough to get into the hall of fame

    As far as PED's are concerned I assume everyone in the NFL is using them and I don't care.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @perkdog said:
    Edelman defines a HOF’er in my opinion. His Playoff heroics are probably second to none and I really mean that, the clutch catches in key spots that he has made are too many to even count. The guy came off an injury and did PEDS to speed up his recovery, yes I’m a homer but I couldn’t care less about using modern medicine to recover from an injury. The guys regular season stats are not much in comparison to other HOF WR numbers but let’s talk about who has accomplished more? HOF era who have great regular season numbers like Moss, T.O or a guy like Edelman who has ridiculous playoff accolades.

    Good thoughts Perkdog, how do you feel about PED users in other sports? Should Mcgwire or Bonds be disregarded from the HOF ballot because of either admission of PED use or accusations of use like they are for many writers?

    He cheated he got caught, he got punished. Now we say it doesn't matter because he's really good blah, blah, blah. Only wanted to get back out there. Now we ADMIRE him for cheating? What a competitor.

    Similar to the deflate gate thread. Only this is much worse. Players that are that good, shouldn't need to cheat.

    Steroid users in ALL sports should have their stats removed from the "All-Time" lists. When you allow the cheaters to benefit, you are punishing the clean players. Seems unfair to me.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:

    @perkdog said:
    Edelman defines a HOF’er in my opinion. His Playoff heroics are probably second to none and I really mean that, the clutch catches in key spots that he has made are too many to even count. The guy came off an injury and did PEDS to speed up his recovery, yes I’m a homer but I couldn’t care less about using modern medicine to recover from an injury. The guys regular season stats are not much in comparison to other HOF WR numbers but let’s talk about who has accomplished more? HOF era who have great regular season numbers like Moss, T.O or a guy like Edelman who has ridiculous playoff accolades.

    Good thoughts Perkdog, how do you feel about PED users in other sports? Should Mcgwire or Bonds be disregarded from the HOF ballot because of either admission of PED use or accusations of use like they are for many writers?

    He cheated he got caught, he got punished. Now we say it doesn't matter because he's really good blah, blah, blah. Only wanted to get back out there. Now we ADMIRE him for cheating? What a competitor.

    Similar to the deflate gate thread. Only this is much worse. Players that are that good, shouldn't need to cheat.

    Steroid users in ALL sports should have their stats removed from the "All-Time" lists. When you allow the cheaters to benefit, you are punishing the clean players. Seems unfair to me.

    In football the list would be one blank page. :D That being said , such a list is of no real value as only today's game matters . What these dimwits did last year means nothing

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:

    @perkdog said:
    Edelman defines a HOF’er in my opinion. His Playoff heroics are probably second to none and I really mean that, the clutch catches in key spots that he has made are too many to even count. The guy came off an injury and did PEDS to speed up his recovery, yes I’m a homer but I couldn’t care less about using modern medicine to recover from an injury. The guys regular season stats are not much in comparison to other HOF WR numbers but let’s talk about who has accomplished more? HOF era who have great regular season numbers like Moss, T.O or a guy like Edelman who has ridiculous playoff accolades.

    Good thoughts Perkdog, how do you feel about PED users in other sports? Should Mcgwire or Bonds be disregarded from the HOF ballot because of either admission of PED use or accusations of use like they are for many writers?

    He cheated he got caught, he got punished. Now we say it doesn't matter because he's really good blah, blah, blah. Only wanted to get back out there. Now we ADMIRE him for cheating? What a competitor.

    Similar to the deflate gate thread. Only this is much worse. Players that are that good, shouldn't need to cheat.

    Steroid users in ALL sports should have their stats removed from the "All-Time" lists. When you allow the cheaters to benefit, you are punishing the clean players. Seems unfair to me.

    In football the list would be one blank page. :D That being said , such a list is of no real value as only today's game matters . What these dimwits did last year means nothing

    Was referring more to baseball on the all-time lists.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    what about players who get a medical exemption? should they be eligible for the hof? Adderall has been used by players with great success. It is a PED, no doubt. If they present symptoms for ADHD to a medical doctor, they can get the medical exemption. Look what it did for Chris Davis's career.

    Aubrey Huff used Adderall and he said it was a more powerful PED than steroids.
    “You just felt mentally invincible,” Huff said. “Think of Adderall like this: it’s a PED. You’ve got steroids, right? Everybody thinks steroids are the biggest PED going. I don’t believe that. Because what’s the biggest thing in baseball you need in order to be successful? Your mind, right? Steroids aren’t going to make your mind any stronger. But these Adderall things? My focus was laser sharp, the air was clean, it was crisp, every fan was like in 3-D. I mean everything around me … the ball looked bigger. Oh, I felt amazing!

    guess what adderall is? basically, amphetamines.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 19,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:

    @perkdog said:
    Edelman defines a HOF’er in my opinion. His Playoff heroics are probably second to none and I really mean that, the clutch catches in key spots that he has made are too many to even count. The guy came off an injury and did PEDS to speed up his recovery, yes I’m a homer but I couldn’t care less about using modern medicine to recover from an injury. The guys regular season stats are not much in comparison to other HOF WR numbers but let’s talk about who has accomplished more? HOF era who have great regular season numbers like Moss, T.O or a guy like Edelman who has ridiculous playoff accolades.

    Good thoughts Perkdog, how do you feel about PED users in other sports? Should Mcgwire or Bonds be disregarded from the HOF ballot because of either admission of PED use or accusations of use like they are for many writers?

    He cheated he got caught, he got punished. Now we say it doesn't matter because he's really good blah, blah, blah. Only wanted to get back out there. Now we ADMIRE him for cheating? What a competitor.

    Similar to the deflate gate thread. Only this is much worse. Players that are that good, shouldn't need to cheat.

    Steroid users in ALL sports should have their stats removed from the "All-Time" lists. When you allow the cheaters to benefit, you are punishing the clean players. Seems unfair to me.

    I’m glad your not in charge of anything that matters in Sports. I really dislike your thought process on this, so a player has a great career going with Clutch performances in the Playoffs and Championship games - several of them, gets hurt and takes PEDS to help recover from said injury, gets caught, gets suspended and YOU want to chastise him for life? One mistake and done huh? Absolutely ridiculous

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    that is the mindset of the MLB writers when it comes to the HOF. doesnt seem to be the general consensus for football though. I wonder why the double standard?

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 19,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    that is the mindset of the MLB writers when it comes to the HOF. doesnt seem to be the general consensus for football though. I wonder why the double standard?

    I would imagine it’s because Football Players are the most insane combination of size, speed, and muscle smashing into each other nearly every play, steroids was rampant back in the 70’s and many HOF’ers were users to much higher degree. To use them to get back quicker from an injury is well worth a 4 game suspension.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:

    @perkdog said:
    Edelman defines a HOF’er in my opinion. His Playoff heroics are probably second to none and I really mean that, the clutch catches in key spots that he has made are too many to even count. The guy came off an injury and did PEDS to speed up his recovery, yes I’m a homer but I couldn’t care less about using modern medicine to recover from an injury. The guys regular season stats are not much in comparison to other HOF WR numbers but let’s talk about who has accomplished more? HOF era who have great regular season numbers like Moss, T.O or a guy like Edelman who has ridiculous playoff accolades.

    Good thoughts Perkdog, how do you feel about PED users in other sports? Should Mcgwire or Bonds be disregarded from the HOF ballot because of either admission of PED use or accusations of use like they are for many writers?

    He cheated he got caught, he got punished. Now we say it doesn't matter because he's really good blah, blah, blah. Only wanted to get back out there. Now we ADMIRE him for cheating? What a competitor.

    Similar to the deflate gate thread. Only this is much worse. Players that are that good, shouldn't need to cheat.

    Steroid users in ALL sports should have their stats removed from the "All-Time" lists. When you allow the cheaters to benefit, you are punishing the clean players. Seems unfair to me.

    I’m glad your not in charge of anything that matters in Sports. I really dislike your thought process on this, so a player has a great career going with Clutch performances in the Playoffs and Championship games - several of them, gets hurt and takes PEDS to help recover from said injury, gets caught, gets suspended and YOU want to chastise him for life? One mistake and done huh? Absolutely ridiculous

    I'm glad too. People who believe in sportsmanship are foolish.

    I would rather lose honestly than win by cheating.......messed up huh?

    I don't call it a mistake he did it knowing full well what he was doing and the consequences.

    Definition of the word mistake has certainly changed over the years.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is no comparison between Edelman and McGuire/Bonds. Edelman used to heal and it did NOT enhance his ability to catch a ball where as those other 2 jerks juiced up to bulk up and hit more HR's. No comparison whatsoever!! Edelman definitely HOF...….other 2 jerks NO WAY!!


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  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Steroids and PED's are fine in football thats the collective ruling of the fanbase. The fanbase is divided with regards to PEDs in baseball. There was a big uproar amongst baseball fans which is dying down I think and will end with a whimper.

    The correct answer is all players should be forced to take PED's that would level the playing field .

    Baseball players only exist to entertain me and they should shoot them full to the eyeballs with every substance available. If they drop dead the day they stop playing from all sorts of steroid related diseases I have no problem with that, the league will save on health insurance costs, win win for everyone.

  • PatsGuy5000PatsGuy5000 Posts: 471 ✭✭✭

    Love Edelman immensely, however I don’t think he is a HOFer. No Pro Bowls, only 30 receiving TD’s, and 500 receptions. He will be remembered as an extremely clutch, tough, reliable player that elevated his game in the playoffs. Steroids for him might improve his healing time, while Bonds stood at the plate and crushed balls into McCovey cove with an extra 50+lbs of muscle 💪

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    edelman needs another 5 seasons worth of stats to rate getting in. Tons of guys with a lot more catches yards whatevers that are not in

  • Skin2Skin2 Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭

    Certainly a double standard

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Skin2 said:
    Certainly a double standard

    it would only be a double standard if ped use was punished differently for one football player over another.

    Baseball and football fans view ped use differently and thats ok because its a different sport.

    You might get worked up over ped use in baseball but not particularly care about ped use in womens curling. Same thing .

    sports fans are not logical so anything goes.

  • Skin2Skin2 Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭

    In 2004 Barry Bonds set a record that will never be broken. He reached base more time than he had official at bats.
    Reached base 376 times and had 373 official at bats.

    The closest post 1900 player, aside from Bonds in two other of his seasons, was Ted Williams, with 335 and 456.
    Then Ruth with 379 and 522.

    In 2004 Bonds actually had more intentional walks than swings and misses for the entire season.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time record for home runs per at bat with one every 6.5 at bats.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time single season mark for slugging percentage at .863

    In 2004 Bonds set the all time single season mark for OB% with a .609 OB%. The next best season was Bonds at .581.....and then the third best was Ted Williams at .552.

    And of course still the all time single season and career home run leader.

    There is going to come a time where these marks will get more due, because in a league where everyone was doing PED's, nobody came close to this level of dominance.

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019 9:51AM

    @craig44 said:
    that is the mindset of the MLB writers when it comes to the HOF. doesnt seem to be the general consensus for football though. I wonder why the double standard?

    without PED's in todays game a player would be lucky to last 5 years.

    PED's are different in baseball they lead to higher personal stats , in football they would add team wins. I mean if patrick mahomes throws 50 TD's and 5000 yards how many people are sitting around trying to figure the precise number were his and how many were attributible to his PED use? I mean the reciever might be on PED's and the safety covering him too. It can't be unravelled so its ignored.

    In baseball you might be able to say PED use equals +15 home runs one batter trying to hit one pitch and the wall is so many feet away it is a single event

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Skin2 said:
    In 2004 Barry Bonds set a record that will never be broken. He reached base more time than he had official at bats.
    Reached base 376 times and had 373 official at bats.

    The closest post 1900 player, aside from Bonds in two other of his seasons, was Ted Williams, with 335 and 456.
    Then Ruth with 379 and 522.

    In 2004 Bonds actually had more intentional walks than swings and misses for the entire season.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time record for home runs per at bat with one every 6.5 at bats.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time single season mark for slugging percentage at .863

    In 2004 Bonds set the all time single season mark for OB% with a .609 OB%. The next best season was Bonds at .581.....and then the third best was Ted Williams at .552.

    And of course still the all time single season and career home run leader.

    There is going to come a time where these marks will get more due, because in a league where everyone was doing PED's, nobody came close to this level of dominance.

    The greatest hitting achievements of all time and done by a (admittedly great) player who wouldn't have come close with out steroids.

    Just sad. Now when I look at the All-Time lists it seems pretty meaningless.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • TomiTomi Posts: 615 ✭✭✭

    The greatest hitting achievements of all time and done by a (admittedly great) player who wouldn't have come close with out steroids.

    Just sad. Now when I look at the All-Time lists it seems pretty meaningless.

    Makes you appreciate the old timers even more.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Skin2 said:
    In 2004 Barry Bonds set a record that will never be broken. He reached base more time than he had official at bats.
    Reached base 376 times and had 373 official at bats.

    The closest post 1900 player, aside from Bonds in two other of his seasons, was Ted Williams, with 335 and 456.
    Then Ruth with 379 and 522.

    In 2004 Bonds actually had more intentional walks than swings and misses for the entire season.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time record for home runs per at bat with one every 6.5 at bats.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time single season mark for slugging percentage at .863

    In 2004 Bonds set the all time single season mark for OB% with a .609 OB%. The next best season was Bonds at .581.....and then the third best was Ted Williams at .552.

    And of course still the all time single season and career home run leader.

    There is going to come a time where these marks will get more due, because in a league where everyone was doing PED's, nobody came close to this level of dominance.

    None of Bonds numbesr will ever matter because he is a POS cheating POS! Hank Aaron is the HR King and always will be!


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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 28,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looking at how Edelman gets hit after catching the ball, it makes you wonder how he can hang on to it and stay in one piece. Football is a bear of a sport to play; baseball is not, especially for designated hitters.

    As for Bonds he got to where he did by taking drugs. I don’t view him as the all-time home run leader. Aaron holds that honor because he got there honestly.

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  • Skin2Skin2 Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019 5:52AM

    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:

    @craig44 said:
    that is the mindset of the MLB writers when it comes to the HOF. doesnt seem to be the general consensus for football though. I wonder why the double standard?

    without PED's in todays game a player would be lucky to last 5 years.

    PED's are different in baseball they lead to higher personal stats , in football they would add team wins. I mean if patrick mahomes throws 50 TD's and 5000 yards how many people are sitting around trying to figure the precise number were his and how many were attributible to his PED use? I mean the reciever might be on PED's and the safety covering him too. It can't be unravelled so its ignored.

    In baseball you might be able to say PED use equals +15 home runs one batter trying to hit one pitch and the wall is so many feet away it is a single event

    seems a bit like a cop out, no? There are too many variables so we should give up because it is too difficult to wrap our minds around? If prevailing wisdom says PED lead to better health/personal stats it should apply to all sports, not just baseball. all positive stats lead to helping a team win dont they? mahomes 50 touchdowns helped his team and bonds HR's walks etc. helped his team.

    there are also many variables that help determine outcomes in baseball: weather, wind speed, wind direction, home park, away park, left handed pitcher, right handed pitcher, day game, night game, runners on base, situation, type of pitcher, umpires, is the pitcher on PED...

    so, there are also many variables in a baseball at bat that cannot be unraveled, but they are not ignored.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    this couldnt have been said better. people make excuses for football players though. "they only do it to get better" etc. if that is the case, they are playing more games than they could have naturally and also playing them more physically healthy than they could have naturally.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.

    From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/232404-the-steelers-steroids-and-profound-misconceptions

    "It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 19,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think as an adult you should be allowed to make the decision to use PEDS or not. I don’t know why Pro Sports teams even care to begin with.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 19,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019 6:39AM

    As far as that link goes about misconceptions with steroids and the 70’s Steelers it’s skeptical at best.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @Skin2 said:
    In 2004 Barry Bonds set a record that will never be broken. He reached base more time than he had official at bats.
    Reached base 376 times and had 373 official at bats.

    The closest post 1900 player, aside from Bonds in two other of his seasons, was Ted Williams, with 335 and 456.
    Then Ruth with 379 and 522.

    In 2004 Bonds actually had more intentional walks than swings and misses for the entire season.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time record for home runs per at bat with one every 6.5 at bats.

    In 2001 Bonds set the all time single season mark for slugging percentage at .863

    In 2004 Bonds set the all time single season mark for OB% with a .609 OB%. The next best season was Bonds at .581.....and then the third best was Ted Williams at .552.

    And of course still the all time single season and career home run leader.

    There is going to come a time where these marks will get more due, because in a league where everyone was doing PED's, nobody came close to this level of dominance.

    None of Bonds numbesr will ever matter because he is a POS cheating POS! Hank Aaron is the HR King and always will be!

    Players with over 500 career Home Runs who are linked (as far as I know of) to steroids;

    Gary Sheffield 509
    David Ortiz 541
    Manny Ramirez 555
    Raphael Palmeiro 569
    Mark McGwire 583
    Sammy Sosa 609
    Alex Rodreguez 696
    Barry Bonds 762

    I think it would be great if MLB had two lists for ALL the categories (well, actually one, but that won't happen) one without the juicers.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 19,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai They would need 3 lists. 1-Everyone’s Heroes from Pre 1990. 2-Users who got caught 3- Everyone else post 1990 since nobody knows for sure

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    I'm sure the vikings were using PED's too its just that no one wrote an article about it , the steelers , won so they got more attention.

  • Skin2Skin2 Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    @JoeBanzai They would need 3 lists. 1-Everyone’s Heroes from Pre 1990. 2-Users who got caught 3- Everyone else post 1990 since nobody knows for sure

    And that is what it comes down to. The moment someones hero is surpassed, then anger comes in. When your childhood era is no loner the cream of the crop, then emotions get in the way.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.

    From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/232404-the-steelers-steroids-and-profound-misconceptions

    "It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.

    From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/232404-the-steelers-steroids-and-profound-misconceptions

    "It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?

    If stuff is legal how can anyone complain? If player A uses and excels player B can go get some and match him.

    PED's is a rules issue not a moral issue. It's a victim-less crime. It may be stupid for me to use steroids but I am not harming you any.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    @JoeBanzai They would need 3 lists. 1-Everyone’s Heroes from Pre 1990. 2-Users who got caught 3- Everyone else post 1990 since nobody knows for sure

    I see your point, but I would be happy with just the 2.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    I'm sure the vikings were using PED's too its just that no one wrote an article about it , the steelers , won so they got more attention.

    Since PED's were legal at the time, it's not a big deal.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.

    From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/232404-the-steelers-steroids-and-profound-misconceptions

    "It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?

    If stuff is legal how can anyone complain? If player A uses and excels player B can go get some and match him.

    PED's is a rules issue not a moral issue. It's a victim-less crime. It may be stupid for me to use steroids but I am not harming you any.

    popular opinion seems that PED users have unnaturally altered their physical makeup to turn themselves into super ballplayers and therefore their statistics dont count. See the comments after the poster listed off the Bonds statistics earlier in this thread. you are saying Bronco that this is not your view and that if Bonds had done steroids and played just before MLB outlawed steroids his numbers would be legit to you? I dont want to put words in your mouth, just want to get it clear.

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019 7:45AM

    @craig44 said:

    @bronco2078 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.

    From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/232404-the-steelers-steroids-and-profound-misconceptions

    "It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?

    If stuff is legal how can anyone complain? If player A uses and excels player B can go get some and match him.

    PED's is a rules issue not a moral issue. It's a victim-less crime. It may be stupid for me to use steroids but I am not harming you any.

    popular opinion seems that PED users have unnaturally altered their physical makeup to turn themselves into super ballplayers and therefore their statistics dont count. See the comments after the poster listed off the Bonds statistics earlier in this thread. you are saying Bronco that this is not your view and that if Bonds had done steroids and played just before MLB outlawed steroids his numbers would be legit to you? I dont want to put words in your mouth, just want to get it clear.

    I still think his numbers are legit . I'm not looking to impose morality on anyone. If we were going to do that wouldn't we start with the fact that Bonds was a complete douche ? Although maybe that was roid related.

    To put it a different way I'm ok with a person being a hopeless drunk , as long as they don't run over someone I know .

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    thank you for the reply bronco2078. I was just a little surprised at some of the comments in the thread so far. and i can agree about the douche part !

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Skin2 said:

    @perkdog said:
    @JoeBanzai They would need 3 lists. 1-Everyone’s Heroes from Pre 1990. 2-Users who got caught 3- Everyone else post 1990 since nobody knows for sure

    And that is what it comes down to. The moment someones hero is surpassed, then anger comes in. When your childhood era is no loner the cream of the crop, then emotions get in the way.

    I will agree that when your hero gets surpassed you look for a reason to justify his former ranking. If he gets surpassed by an inferior player who is a cheater, you are certainly going to bring that up.

    Personally it didn't bother me when Jim Thome passed Killebrew, he was a better slugger and seemed to be a great person. Pujols a better hitter too, although there have been steroid rumors. Griffey, of course is one of the best players of all time. Other than those three, I do not recognize the other players who have more lifetime HRs than Killebrew.

    As far as "childhood era" I do think the 1960's were great, maybe even the best. I sure don't enjoy many of the things they do now.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Skin2 said:

    @perkdog said:
    @JoeBanzai They would need 3 lists. 1-Everyone’s Heroes from Pre 1990. 2-Users who got caught 3- Everyone else post 1990 since nobody knows for sure

    And that is what it comes down to. The moment someones hero is surpassed, then anger comes in. When your childhood era is no loner the cream of the crop, then emotions get in the way.

    I think its weird to have a hero. I mean if you are a child its normal but by the time you have a mortgage to pay then as an adult you are exactly equal to anyone that every rolled out of bed in the morning and went to do anything.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 19,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:

    @Skin2 said:

    @perkdog said:
    @JoeBanzai They would need 3 lists. 1-Everyone’s Heroes from Pre 1990. 2-Users who got caught 3- Everyone else post 1990 since nobody knows for sure

    And that is what it comes down to. The moment someones hero is surpassed, then anger comes in. When your childhood era is no loner the cream of the crop, then emotions get in the way.

    I think its weird to have a hero. I mean if you are a child its normal but by the time you have a mortgage to pay then as an adult you are exactly equal to anyone that every rolled out of bed in the morning and went to do anything.

    Totally agree, I’m Tom Brady’s biggest fan but only when he is in a Pats uniform. I have zero interest in meeting him or talking to him for that matter. Outside of Football I think he is a weirdo 😂

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.

    From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/232404-the-steelers-steroids-and-profound-misconceptions

    "It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?

    Why would ANYTHING legal and not banned by the league be regarded as cheating? At that time the long term dangers of steroids were not known.

    No, in my opinion it was not cheating to use steroids in the NFL before 1983. At that time things changed a bit for the other leagues BUT until 1990 you could get these drugs legally and as I understand it without a Drs prescription.

    LSD was also legal for quite some time, although I don't think it would help a player perform better.

    I don't think the Vikings were aware of steroids at the time but they certainly could have been. The Vikings MIGHT have won two or three Super Bowls if they had been using, or the other teams had not been using, BUT we will never know and since these drugs were available to everyone at that time, I do not make any excuses.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:

    @Skin2 said:

    @perkdog said:
    @JoeBanzai They would need 3 lists. 1-Everyone’s Heroes from Pre 1990. 2-Users who got caught 3- Everyone else post 1990 since nobody knows for sure

    And that is what it comes down to. The moment someones hero is surpassed, then anger comes in. When your childhood era is no loner the cream of the crop, then emotions get in the way.

    I think its weird to have a hero. I mean if you are a child its normal but by the time you have a mortgage to pay then as an adult you are exactly equal to anyone that every rolled out of bed in the morning and went to do anything.

    bronko2078 YOU are my new hero!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    popular opinion seems that PED users have unnaturally altered their physical makeup to turn themselves into super ballplayers and therefore their statistics dont count. See the comments after the poster listed off the Bonds statistics earlier in this thread. you are saying Bronco that this is not your view and that if Bonds had done steroids and played just before MLB outlawed steroids his numbers would be legit to you? I dont want to put words in your mouth, just want to get it clear.

    I do think you are getting it.

    Ballplayers all have different physical and mental makeups. Mickey Mantle, for one was naturally muscular, Jimmy Foxx would be another.

    Bonds was a fantastic player, but (in my opinion) didn't have the natural strength to hit with the kind of power he did from 2001-2004, and since steroids were banned at that time his numbers are inflated. Him being a jerk should not be part of the equation as far as I am concerned.

    Same could be said about A-Rod.

    These two guys (to me) could/would have been regarded as two of the best players of all time without drugs. The GOAT discussions/arguments can be a lot of fun, but since these guys and some others chose to break the rules, I don't think there's a way to know what they would have accomplished without cheating.

    Since the original idea for sports had a lot to do with sportsmanship, I don't consider them any more than the players who cheated to lose the WS in 1919.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @craig44 said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Skin2 said:
    Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.

    If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.

    The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.

    Can't have it both ways.

    If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.

    From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/232404-the-steelers-steroids-and-profound-misconceptions

    "It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."

    My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.

    As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.

    So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?

    Why would ANYTHING legal and not banned by the league be regarded as cheating? At that time the long term dangers of steroids were not known.

    No, in my opinion it was not cheating to use steroids in the NFL before 1983. At that time things changed a bit for the other leagues BUT until 1990 you could get these drugs legally and as I understand it without a Drs prescription.

    LSD was also legal for quite some time, although I don't think it would help a player perform better.

    I don't think the Vikings were aware of steroids at the time but they certainly could have been. The Vikings MIGHT have won two or three Super Bowls if they had been using, or the other teams had not been using, BUT we will never know and since these drugs were available to everyone at that time, I do not make any excuses.

    So does this opinion transfer to the other sports? as long as a player is not breaking a federal/state law or breaking a league rule they are good and all their statistics/accomplishments are safe? but if they break a law or league rule, then statistics are out the window?

    to extrapolate, altered bats have been illegal since at least the early 1920's when Ruth was caught using one. Mantle also used a corked bat as did pete rose and other great players. they all clearly broke a league rule. should their statistics be null and void? what about pitchers who doctored balls past 1920? whitey ford, don drysdale and gaylord perry among others clearly broke that rule. should they also be cleaned from the record books?

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭✭

    also, when do we consider the cut off date for grandfathering steroid users in MLB? outlawed federally in 1990, outlawed in MLB in 1991, but testing and enforcement didnt start until 2003. is it truly a rule if it is not tested for or penalized?

    Under this reasoning, does all steroid use get grandfathered in until either 1990, 1991 or 2003?

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 2,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Quick hitters...

    With all the depth and greatness at the position of WR, Julian Edelman has a lot of work to do if he wants to make the Hall of Fame. The list of guys not in that have impressive resumes is a long one. Total gamer and certainly plays like a hall of famer in the postseason...

    Barry Bonds was a jerk and Edelman is likable.

    Despite my own views, it seems to me steroids are considered part of football by many folks and baseball folks consider it less so. Or better stated, the NFL seems to turn more of a blind eye and baseball seems to want to police it.

    I accept steroid users are just a part of sports and have been for a long time. And at some point, the scales have tip when future generations question why the all time hits king and all time HR king aren't in, especially if they're still reigning...

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest

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