Did Mantle and Rose use those corked bats every at bat for 4 (or more) straight years? I didn't know about the Mantle bat until now. It doesn't look very used. Pete Rose cheating? No surprise there.
Did those pitchers "scuff" the ball on every single pitch?
Yes to answer your question these are both examples of cheating. Not to excuse Rose or Mantle, but it seems they did this at the ends of their careers and it shouldn't change their numbers much.
MLB and players union has some blame here as well for not policing their rules. Especially when they were benefiting from the home run chase.
I have said this on several occasions, I'll say it again, SOME kinds of cheating also can hurt you; a scuffed ball does not always do what you want it to and a corked bat could break because of the alteration and turn a hit into an out.
Changing your body gives you more strength every time you are on the field. I can't see where that (in the short term at least) is going to cause you to fail.
There will always be players who try to get an unfair advantage. You have to decide on some kind of scale to hold them accountable. Short changing someone $1.00 is not the same as stealing their pension, even though "stealing is stealing".
Here's a question for you;
Do you consider Barry Bonds the greatest hitter of all time? The numbers point to it. If not the GOAT, top 3? Top 5?
I am not sure where to rank him, but to have him above Ruth and Williams (any evidence Teddy Ballgame cheated?) just doesn't seem right.
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@craig44 said:
also, when do we consider the cut off date for grandfathering steroid users in MLB? outlawed federally in 1990, outlawed in MLB in 1991, but testing and enforcement didnt start until 2003. is it truly a rule if it is not tested for or penalized?
Under this reasoning, does all steroid use get grandfathered in until either 1990, 1991 or 2003?
I don't know, I guess 1990 for a criminal offense 1991 for baseball unless you got caught buying by the cops in 1990 and the MLB had a drug policy that covered it.
Good question though, when they outlawed the spitball pitchers who were already throwing it were allowed to continue.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I accept steroid users are just a part of sports and have been for a long time. And at some point, the scales have tip when future generations question why the all time hits king and all time HR king aren't in, especially if they're still reigning...
Many here want the highest statistical achievers in the HOF, that's certainly one reflection on greatness.
Originally and (more or less still today) you had to be a good sportsman as well.
Yes, I know about Ty Cobb.
Rose and Bonds are two very different examples. I hope I am wrong, but Bonds will eventually get in. With Rose (similar to J. Jackson) betting/gambling on games is the issue and I doubt that Rose will get in.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I accept steroid users are just a part of sports and have been for a long time. And at some point, the scales have tip when future generations question why the all time hits king and all time HR king aren't in, especially if they're still reigning...
Many here want the highest statistical achievers in the HOF, that's certainly one reflection on greatness.
Originally and (more or less still today) you had to be a good sportsman as well.
Yes, I know about Ty Cobb.
Rose and Bonds are two very different examples. I hope I am wrong, but Bonds will eventually get in. With Rose (similar to J. Jackson) betting/gambling on games is the issue and I doubt that Rose will get in.
You and I often view things through a similar lens. Seems to be the case once again.
That said, the current 20 and 30 somethings of the entitlement generation often have no concept or understanding of history, context or historical context!
Ever notice that the most common link in ‘viral videos’ is the stupidity of the protagonist? With more and more viral videos every day, is it not fair to say that stupidity is now truly contagious?
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@Skin2 said:
Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.
If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.
The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.
Can't have it both ways.
If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.
From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"
"It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."
My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.
As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.
So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?
Why would ANYTHING legal and not banned by the league be regarded as cheating? At that time the long term dangers of steroids were not known.
No, in my opinion it was not cheating to use steroids in the NFL before 1983. At that time things changed a bit for the other leagues BUT until 1990 you could get these drugs legally and as I understand it without a Drs prescription.
LSD was also legal for quite some time, although I don't think it would help a player perform better.
I don't think the Vikings were aware of steroids at the time but they certainly could have been. The Vikings MIGHT have won two or three Super Bowls if they had been using, or the other teams had not been using, BUT we will never know and since these drugs were available to everyone at that time, I do not make any excuses.
Whether it was legal or not doesn't discard the fact that it gave an unnatural competitive advantage. Isn't that the bottom line??
So it is back to: Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.
@JoeBanzai said:
Did Mantle and Rose use those corked bats every at bat for 4 (or more) straight years? I didn't know about the Mantle bat until now. It doesn't look very used. Pete Rose cheating? No surprise there.
Did those pitchers "scuff" the ball on every single pitch?
Yes to answer your question these are both examples of cheating. Not to excuse Rose or Mantle, but it seems they did this at the ends of their careers and it shouldn't change their numbers much.
MLB and players union has some blame here as well for not policing their rules. Especially when they were benefiting from the home run chase.
I have said this on several occasions, I'll say it again, SOME kinds of cheating also can hurt you; a scuffed ball does not always do what you want it to and a corked bat could break because of the alteration and turn a hit into an out.
Changing your body gives you more strength every time you are on the field. I can't see where that (in the short term at least) is going to cause you to fail.
There will always be players who try to get an unfair advantage. You have to decide on some kind of scale to hold them accountable. Short changing someone $1.00 is not the same as stealing their pension, even though "stealing is stealing".
Here's a question for you;
Do you consider Barry Bonds the greatest hitter of all time? The numbers point to it. If not the GOAT, top 3? Top 5?
I am not sure where to rank him, but to have him above Ruth and Williams (any evidence Teddy Ballgame cheated?) just doesn't seem right.
It is a very difficult question. There are so many variables to try to consider.
1. Bonds admitted use, but said he did not know what he was using was steroids. I dont know whether this is true or a lie.
2. does intent matter?
3. we do not know for sure when bonds started using. prevailing wisdom says 1998 or 99, but no one knows for sure.
4. no one knows exactly what Bonds took (other than the cream and clear) or how much of each drug was used.
5. it is currently impossible to determine the net effect the PED had on him.
6. how many opposing pitchers were using PED and what were the effects on them?
Until I can get some sort of clarity for some of those variables, it makes it really hard to discount bonds. I guess he has to rank with Ruth and williams as one of the top three. and a couple of his individual seasons are probably the best ever.
personally, i cant stand the man, but I also cannot just white wash it as though it never happened.
Also, it is said Bonds used starting in 1998 or 1999...but it wasn't until 2001 where his stats took a leap. So what took so long?
Also, Craig, if I may....what if he started working out and lifting weights WITHOUT steroids? How much of an improvement can be attributed to that? Surely, dedicated people working out clean DO make big gains. So how can one differentiate from those natural gains that helped him as opposed to any that may have been due to steroids?
I think Craig brings up a lot of good points above.
Clearly, taking Bonds numbers as they are, he is in the top three all-time, and has his best seasons are the best ever.
I would also like to see the proof that Griffey didn't take ANY sort of PED. He had the ability to prove he didn't...yet he never fought to have real blood tests, or offer to have his own blood tested.
So what if Griffey was taking something then that is NOW on the banned list(since that list has gotten bigger)? Morality aside, wouldn't that be a PED advantage??
as an answer to your second question, while there is no hard proof, there are strong suspicions that ted williams was a user of amphetamines and was the person who introduced greenies to mlb
@Skin2 said:
Seems fans have the same double standard too, based on this thread.
If their is disdain for Bonds, then the same disdain should be laid upon all others who did the same.
The mid-1970s Steelers were ahead of the curve in the NFL with steroid use, and it helped them be dominant. Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.
Can't have it both ways.
If you are interested in Footballs early use of steroids check out Alvin Roy.
From the article "The Steelers, Steroids and Profound Misconceptions"
"It's important to remember that steroid usage was during this time period both legal in the United States and not banned in any form by the NFL. It was not until 1983 (20 years after the Chargers began using them) that Pete Rozelle and the NFL wrote specific language banning the usage of steroids in the NFL."
My Vikings were beaten by three teams in the 1970's that were linked to (legal) steroid use Chiefs, Cowboys and Steelers.
As much as it pains me to say it, as far as football goes (Pro Football was first major sport to ban steroids), since they were legal there is a difference there, it wasn't cheating at that time.
So if I can get this clear JoeBanzai, in your opinion, using PED is not Cheating if it was legal in the U.S. and also not banned by the NFL or other league? So for you it is not about the performance enhancing aspects of Steroids/PED but the legality?
Why would ANYTHING legal and not banned by the league be regarded as cheating? At that time the long term dangers of steroids were not known.
No, in my opinion it was not cheating to use steroids in the NFL before 1983. At that time things changed a bit for the other leagues BUT until 1990 you could get these drugs legally and as I understand it without a Drs prescription.
LSD was also legal for quite some time, although I don't think it would help a player perform better.
I don't think the Vikings were aware of steroids at the time but they certainly could have been. The Vikings MIGHT have won two or three Super Bowls if they had been using, or the other teams had not been using, BUT we will never know and since these drugs were available to everyone at that time, I do not make any excuses.
Whether it was legal or not doesn't discard the fact that it gave an unnatural competitive advantage. Isn't that the bottom line??
So it is back to: Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.
You have a good point.
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@craig44 said:
lots of players took andro back in the 1990's before it was banned including HOFer mike piazza. how do we handle mikes stats? did they happen?
Exactly. Just because they were not 'illegal' at the time, doesn't mean they didn't get a physical competitive advantage. That is similar to the 1970's Steelers who were roided up.
So what it comes down to for Bonds is that he took similar stuff, but it was illegal at the time....but other players got to enjoy the same physical advantages, but without the discredit??
Bonds had HOF career way before any of this PED came into his universe. Piazza wasn't even good enough to get drafted without a favor from Lasorda as the last pick in the draft. One is in the HOF and the other isn't??
@craig44 said:
as an answer to your second question, while there is no hard proof, there are strong suspicions that ted williams was a user of amphetamines and was the person who introduced greenies to mlb
Where do you get THIS?
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@craig44 said:
lots of players took andro back in the 1990's before it was banned including HOFer mike piazza. how do we handle mikes stats? did they happen?
Barry R. McCaffrey, the director of the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy, attempted to determine whether androstenedione could be classified as an anabolic steroid in July 1999. However, he could not because there is no proof of it promoting muscle growth.
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@craig44 said:
as an answer to your second question, while there is no hard proof, there are strong suspicions that ted williams was a user of amphetamines and was the person who introduced greenies to mlb
Secondly, we'll have to agree to disagree on "uppers" they are NOT comparable to steroids.
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@craig44 said:
lots of players took andro back in the 1990's before it was banned including HOFer mike piazza. how do we handle mikes stats? did they happen?
Barry R. McCaffrey, the director of the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy, attempted to determine whether androstenedione could be classified as an anabolic steroid in July 1999. However, he could not because there is no proof of it promoting muscle growth.
Do you have proof that the politician wasn't in bed with the company???? Knowing how that stuff works, one can take that 'study' with a grain of salt. Piazza got quite good and strong himself.
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
@craig44 said:
lots of players took andro back in the 1990's before it was banned including HOFer mike piazza. how do we handle mikes stats? did they happen?
Barry R. McCaffrey, the director of the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy, attempted to determine whether androstenedione could be classified as an anabolic steroid in July 1999. However, he could not because there is no proof of it promoting muscle growth.
Do you have proof that the politician wasn't in bed with the company???? Knowing how that stuff works, one can take that 'study' with a grain of salt. Piazza got quite good and strong himself.
My gosh! I got it from Wikipedia! EVERYONE knows that's the facts. ;-)
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@Skin2 said:
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
When was he banned?
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@Skin2 said:
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
When was he banned?
What do you mean? None of them are officially banned.
@craig44 said:
lots of players took andro back in the 1990's before it was banned including HOFer mike piazza. how do we handle mikes stats? did they happen?
Exactly. Just because they were not 'illegal' at the time, doesn't mean they didn't get a physical competitive advantage. That is similar to the 1970's Steelers who were roided up.
So what it comes down to for Bonds is that he took similar stuff, but it was illegal at the time....but other players got to enjoy the same physical advantages, but without the discredit??
Bonds had HOF career way before any of this PED came into his universe. Piazza wasn't even good enough to get drafted without a favor from Lasorda as the last pick in the draft. One is in the HOF and the other isn't??
Bonds will get in. :-(
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Skin2 said:
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
When was he banned?
What do you mean? None of them are officially banned.
Didn't I copy your post that said;
"And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards."
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@Skin2 said:
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
When was he banned?
What do you mean? None of them are officially banned.
Didn't I copy your post that said;
"And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards."
@Skin2 said:
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
I have done significant research on clemens the last year or two and I am firmly of the opinion that there is no proof clemens used PED. there is lots of group think brought on by ESPN talking heads that reported at the time, but no proof.
So as to original post, I wonder if there was a writer who had a super bowl mvp vote AN> @craig44 said:
@Skin2 said:
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
I have done significant research on clemens the last year or two and I am firmly of the opinion that there is no proof clemens used PED. there is lots of group think brought on by ESPN talking heads that reported at the time, but no proof.
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
@Skin2 said:
So as to original post, I wonder if there was a writer who had a super bowl mvp vote AN> @craig44 said:
@Skin2 said:
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
I have done significant research on clemens the last year or two and I am firmly of the opinion that there is no proof clemens used PED. there is lots of group think brought on by ESPN talking heads that reported at the time, but no proof.
Correct.
Also, no proof on Sammy Sosa.
Here's what I found on Sosa;
New York Times report that Sammy Sosa is one of the 104 players who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in baseball's 2003 survey testing.
Sammy Sosa, who joined with Mark McGwire in 1998 in a celebrated pursuit of baseball’s single-season home run record, is among the players who tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug in 2003, according to lawyers with knowledge of the drug-testing results from that year.
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@craig44 said:
as an answer to your second question, while there is no hard proof, there are strong suspicions that ted williams was a user of amphetamines and was the person who introduced greenies to mlb
Secondly, we'll have to agree to disagree on "uppers" they are NOT comparable to steroids.
MLB players would dissagree. look at what adderall did for Chris Davis and check out Aubrey Huffs comments on his adderall use. He believes amphetemines are more effective than steroids for baseball players.
@Skin2 said:
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
Edelman hasn't hurt anyone's boyhood hero , when that happens.............. outrage!!!!
I have very little faith in the integrity of most people. That’s probably from my 20 years working in a Correctional Facility I guess but to pick and chose which players we want to convict of being a PED user or not a user is grossly wrong, if they got caught then fine form your own opinion, myself I chose to think everyone is suspect for that era including everyone’s idle Griffey, that being said I don’t “Judge” him or anyone that didn’t get caught nor do I bash those that did, it is a business where if you don’t perform then you don’t get contracts and everything else that goes with being a “Star” or a guy simply making a team. There are PED users that hit .200 and were not that good while other guys got maximum performance out of it, there is no line to be drawn in my opinion. The juice era was rampant with users and like anything some get caught while others don’t. It’s a crazy situation that no common ground with ever be found on it. That is the biggest problem with that era of MLB
@Skin2 said:
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
Edelman hasn't hurt anyone's boyhood hero , when that happens.............. outrage!!!!
He's no RANDY MOSS!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Skin2 said:
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
Edelman hasn't hurt anyone's boyhood hero , when that happens.............. outrage!!!!
wait until he moves past jerry rice for all time playoff receptions.
@perkdog said:
I have very little faith in the integrity of most people. That’s probably from my 20 years working in a Correctional Facility I guess but to pick and chose which players we want to convict of being a PED user or not a user is grossly wrong, if they got caught then fine form your own opinion, myself I chose to think everyone is suspect for that era including everyone’s idle Griffey, that being said I don’t “Judge” him or anyone that didn’t get caught nor do I bash those that did, it is a business where if you don’t perform then you don’t get contracts and everything else that goes with being a “Star” or a guy simply making a team. There are PED users that hit .200 and were not that good while other guys got maximum performance out of it, there is no line to be drawn in my opinion. The juice era was rampant with users and like anything some get caught while others don’t. It’s a crazy situation that no common ground with ever be found on it. That is the biggest problem with that era of MLB
In baseball personal stats equal a paycheck. PED use is heavily incentivized . In football its about getting to play because the money is rarely guaranteed. If you are missing a lot of games from injury you will be history. You are forced to use them to keep your roster spot.
@perkdog said:
I have very little faith in the integrity of most people. That’s probably from my 20 years working in a Correctional Facility I guess but to pick and chose which players we want to convict of being a PED user or not a user is grossly wrong, if they got caught then fine form your own opinion, myself I chose to think everyone is suspect for that era including everyone’s idle Griffey, that being said I don’t “Judge” him or anyone that didn’t get caught nor do I bash those that did, it is a business where if you don’t perform then you don’t get contracts and everything else that goes with being a “Star” or a guy simply making a team. There are PED users that hit .200 and were not that good while other guys got maximum performance out of it, there is no line to be drawn in my opinion. The juice era was rampant with users and like anything some get caught while others don’t. It’s a crazy situation that no common ground with ever be found on it. That is the biggest problem with that era of MLB
In baseball personal stats equal a paycheck. PED use is heavily incentivized . In football its about getting to play because the money is rarely guaranteed. If you are missing a lot of games from injury you will be history. You are forced to use them to keep your roster spot.
are you saying that the ends justify the means? because baseball contracts are also heavily weighted on being in the lineup to accrue those statistics
@craig44 said:
as an answer to your second question, while there is no hard proof, there are strong suspicions that ted williams was a user of amphetamines and was the person who introduced greenies to mlb
Secondly, we'll have to agree to disagree on "uppers" they are NOT comparable to steroids.
MLB players would dissagree. look at what adderall did for Chris Davis and check out Aubrey Huffs comments on his adderall use. He believes amphetemines are more effective than steroids for baseball players.
Why is it when I quote Jim Bouten it means nothing, but when you find these guys (link to a site would be nice) their opinions are good?
Looked up Adderall, looks pretty powerful, side effects include dizziness, might not be the best for hitting the ball.
Even if they helped him on occasion, he certainly has had an erratic career, like I said before uppers can help, but they can also hurt. Actually making my point.
Being bigger and stronger with steroids is a consistent advantage for several years if administered correctly. Perfect for a guy like Bonds who already had a great career. He gets an unbelievable boost for four or so years jumping him into the stratosphere. He gets off them and his last 2/3 years drop back down to where he belonged, still great but a big drop.
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@Skin2 said:
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
I would like to point out that I said "no juicers" as well.
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Baseball statisticians use the tool of comparing peers vs their era's... yet show disdain for Bonds...when 90% of the league was using something.
Bonds won seven MVPS vs the league of PED users....so within his era, his accomplishments are just as good as Babe Ruth's in his era when people of skill were banned from playing, and when 90% of the league only hit for singles.
Both are being compared against their peers who had the same advantages. There really shouldn't be a discredit to Bonds or anyone else when the measuring tool of 'comparing to their peers' is used.
@Skin2 said:
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
Edelman hasn't hurt anyone's boyhood hero , when that happens.............. outrage!!!!
wait until he moves past jerry rice for all time playoff receptions.
He'll NEVER surpass my RANDY MOSS!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Skin2 said:
Baseball statisticians use the tool of comparing peers vs their era's... yet show disdain for Bonds...when 90% of the league was using something.
Bonds won seven MVPS vs the league of PED users....so within his era, his accomplishments are just as good as Babe Ruth's in his era when people of skill were banned from playing, and when 90% of the league only hit for singles.
Both are being compared against their peers who had the same advantages. There really shouldn't be a discredit to Bonds or anyone else when the measuring tool of 'comparing to their peers' is used.
Good point.
Not sure if 90% is anywhere near correct, but good point nonetheless.
Steroids sure do give us a lot to talk about.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Furthermore about Bonds, if his accomplishments are discredited for the years he may have used PED's, then shouldn't the years where he didn't use PED's get more credit when he wasn't using but others were? He was a three time MVP before that, and the best player in baseball for most of that time.
Not a matter of doing the right thing. If it is said he had an advantage taking steroids while some didn't....then wouldn't his stats be at a disadvantage the years he didn't take steroids and some did?
There’s a lot of silly stuff being said regarding these guys:
1) The ‘proof’ against Clemens is the testimony of Andy Pettitte which lined up exactly with the version of events put forth by Brian McNamee. It is up to individual people to make their own decisions about the HGH use of each man, I guess, and the validity of the proof.
2) Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones and Bill Romanowski were the five star athletes associated with the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative (BALCO). With the exception of Bonds, all have admitted to taking a PED regimen provided by BALCO.
In defense of these two poster boys for PEDs, their fans have turned their overturned convictions and not guilty verdicts for related crimes into ‘there’s no proof’ arguments. That’s nonsense.
To me, the panel that appeared before Congress was great. Palmiero waves his finger and pops a test, Sammy Sosa went from Pepsi commercials and nightly ESPN interviews To ‘no speaka english’ and Mark McGwire didn’t come to talk about the past (which was why the group was convened) and cried when confronted with its reality.
I’ll agree there is no failed test (for those where it’s true) but no proof is a great stretching of the truth.
By that logic, can we see there is no proof that OJ Simpson is a double murderer? Because that trial was heavy on proof yet produced a nonsensical verdict.
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There’s a lot of silly stuff being said regarding these guys:
1) The ‘proof’ against Clemens is the testimony of Andy Pettitte which lined up exactly with the version of events put forth by Brian McNamee. It is up to individual people to make their own decisions about the HGH use of each man, I guess, and the validity of the proof.
2) Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones and Bill Romanowski were the five star athletes associated with the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative (BALCO). With the exception of Bonds, all have admitted to taking a PED regimen provided by BALCO.
In defense of these two poster boys for PEDs, their fans have turned their overturned convictions and not guilty verdicts for related crimes into ‘there’s no proof’ arguments. That’s nonsense.
To me, the panel that appeared before Congress was great. Palmiero waves his finger and pops a test, Sammy Sosa went from Pepsi commercials and nightly ESPN interviews To ‘no speaka english’ and Mark McGwire didn’t come to talk about the past (which was why the group was convened) and cried when confronted with its reality.
I’ll agree there is no failed test (for those where it’s true) but no proof is a great stretching of the truth.
By that logic, can we see there is no proof that OJ Simpson is a double murderer? Because that trial was heavy on proof yet produced a nonsensical verdict.
That is all great and all, but lets not forget the main thrust of this thread...Edelman failed a steroid test and was named Super Bowl MVP with everyone knowing he failed a steroid test. Where is the same disdain as above?
There’s a lot of silly stuff being said regarding these guys:
1) The ‘proof’ against Clemens is the testimony of Andy Pettitte which lined up exactly with the version of events put forth by Brian McNamee. It is up to individual people to make their own decisions about the HGH use of each man, I guess, and the validity of the proof.
2) Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones and Bill Romanowski were the five star athletes associated with the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative (BALCO). With the exception of Bonds, all have admitted to taking a PED regimen provided by BALCO.
In defense of these two poster boys for PEDs, their fans have turned their overturned convictions and not guilty verdicts for related crimes into ‘there’s no proof’ arguments. That’s nonsense.
To me, the panel that appeared before Congress was great. Palmiero waves his finger and pops a test, Sammy Sosa went from Pepsi commercials and nightly ESPN interviews To ‘no speaka english’ and Mark McGwire didn’t come to talk about the past (which was why the group was convened) and cried when confronted with its reality.
I’ll agree there is no failed test (for those where it’s true) but no proof is a great stretching of the truth.
By that logic, can we see there is no proof that OJ Simpson is a double murderer? Because that trial was heavy on proof yet produced a nonsensical verdict.
That is all great and all, but lets not forget the main thrust of this thread...Edelman failed a steroid test and was named Super Bowl MVP with everyone knowing he failed a steroid test. Where is the same disdain as above?
As I stated earlier, steroids is an implied part of football culture and that’s not really the case in baseball. I don’t set societal norms and even more rare is the case where I conform to them. But they’re easily observed.
I think the longer and more meaningful history of baseball plays a role, too.
Lastly, pointing out cheating Patriots is met with ‘Drink more Hatorade!’ around major media outlets (and these forums) who prefer ‘ access’ to ‘truth’ - which is more and more prevalent among journalists across the spectrum.
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Football allows murderers, spouse beaters, child beaters, and all kinds of other "undesirables" to play, if their stats are good enough, so PED usage is pretty low on the list of things to be concerned with.
Baseball, at one time at least, was concerned with "integrity of the game" and PED usage by some destroyed that integrity.
Hence the difference in how PED usage is viewed by their fanbases.
By the way, EVERYONE believed Bonds was on something as they handed him regular season MVP after regular season MVP and was referred to as a Future Hall of Famer (isn’t he in that Registry Set?)...
As they did with Edelman in the case of the SB MVP and speculation of his Hall status.
That’s consistent not controversial.
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@Skin2 said:
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
Edelman hasn't hurt anyone's boyhood hero , when that happens.............. outrage!!!!
wait until he moves past jerry rice for all time playoff receptions.
There’s a lot of silly stuff being said regarding these guys:
1) The ‘proof’ against Clemens is the testimony of Andy Pettitte which lined up exactly with the version of events put forth by Brian McNamee. It is up to individual people to make their own decisions about the HGH use of each man, I guess, and the validity of the proof.
2) Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones and Bill Romanowski were the five star athletes associated with the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative (BALCO). With the exception of Bonds, all have admitted to taking a PED regimen provided by BALCO.
In defense of these two poster boys for PEDs, their fans have turned their overturned convictions and not guilty verdicts for related crimes into ‘there’s no proof’ arguments. That’s nonsense.
To me, the panel that appeared before Congress was great. Palmiero waves his finger and pops a test, Sammy Sosa went from Pepsi commercials and nightly ESPN interviews To ‘no speaka english’ and Mark McGwire didn’t come to talk about the past (which was why the group was convened) and cried when confronted with its reality.
I’ll agree there is no failed test (for those where it’s true) but no proof is a great stretching of the truth.
By that logic, can we see there is no proof that OJ Simpson is a double murderer? Because that trial was heavy on proof yet produced a nonsensical verdict.
You are 100% incorrect about the Pettitte testimony. If you go back and look at the transcript you will see. The talking heads spun the narrative they wanted told and the general public are it up, self included. It was only after I did research for myself that I was able to see it. Pettitte s testimony did not like up with macnamees at all. In fact it was a case killer for the prosecution and it was crazy they used him his testimony was consistent from his deposition to the stand. In a nutshell, in 1999 Clemens and Pettitte had a short conversation where Pettitte thought Clemens told him he used hgh. 6 years later, in a separate conversation it came up and Clemens made it clear he had never used and Pettitte then realized he was wrong about his initial understanding of the 1999 conversation. I believe the deposition was in 2008. That would have been 9 years after the initial conversation.
So no, pettitte s testimony was a terrible blow for the prosecution and helped Clemens case. There is no evidence against clemens, just public opinion.
Comments
Did Mantle and Rose use those corked bats every at bat for 4 (or more) straight years? I didn't know about the Mantle bat until now. It doesn't look very used. Pete Rose cheating? No surprise there.
Did those pitchers "scuff" the ball on every single pitch?
Yes to answer your question these are both examples of cheating. Not to excuse Rose or Mantle, but it seems they did this at the ends of their careers and it shouldn't change their numbers much.
MLB and players union has some blame here as well for not policing their rules. Especially when they were benefiting from the home run chase.
I have said this on several occasions, I'll say it again, SOME kinds of cheating also can hurt you; a scuffed ball does not always do what you want it to and a corked bat could break because of the alteration and turn a hit into an out.
Changing your body gives you more strength every time you are on the field. I can't see where that (in the short term at least) is going to cause you to fail.
There will always be players who try to get an unfair advantage. You have to decide on some kind of scale to hold them accountable. Short changing someone $1.00 is not the same as stealing their pension, even though "stealing is stealing".
Here's a question for you;
Do you consider Barry Bonds the greatest hitter of all time? The numbers point to it. If not the GOAT, top 3? Top 5?
I am not sure where to rank him, but to have him above Ruth and Williams (any evidence Teddy Ballgame cheated?) just doesn't seem right.
I don't know, I guess 1990 for a criminal offense 1991 for baseball unless you got caught buying by the cops in 1990 and the MLB had a drug policy that covered it.
Good question though, when they outlawed the spitball pitchers who were already throwing it were allowed to continue.
Many here want the highest statistical achievers in the HOF, that's certainly one reflection on greatness.
Originally and (more or less still today) you had to be a good sportsman as well.
Yes, I know about Ty Cobb.
Rose and Bonds are two very different examples. I hope I am wrong, but Bonds will eventually get in. With Rose (similar to J. Jackson) betting/gambling on games is the issue and I doubt that Rose will get in.
You and I often view things through a similar lens. Seems to be the case once again.
That said, the current 20 and 30 somethings of the entitlement generation often have no concept or understanding of history, context or historical context!
Ever notice that the most common link in ‘viral videos’ is the stupidity of the protagonist? With more and more viral videos every day, is it not fair to say that stupidity is now truly contagious?
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Whether it was legal or not doesn't discard the fact that it gave an unnatural competitive advantage. Isn't that the bottom line??
So it is back to: Anyone who is a Steeler fan of those teams must either embrace Bonds as the all-time home run leader, or denounce their own Steeler teams the same way they do Bonds.
It is a very difficult question. There are so many variables to try to consider.
1. Bonds admitted use, but said he did not know what he was using was steroids. I dont know whether this is true or a lie.
2. does intent matter?
3. we do not know for sure when bonds started using. prevailing wisdom says 1998 or 99, but no one knows for sure.
4. no one knows exactly what Bonds took (other than the cream and clear) or how much of each drug was used.
5. it is currently impossible to determine the net effect the PED had on him.
6. how many opposing pitchers were using PED and what were the effects on them?
Until I can get some sort of clarity for some of those variables, it makes it really hard to discount bonds. I guess he has to rank with Ruth and williams as one of the top three. and a couple of his individual seasons are probably the best ever.
personally, i cant stand the man, but I also cannot just white wash it as though it never happened.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Also, it is said Bonds used starting in 1998 or 1999...but it wasn't until 2001 where his stats took a leap. So what took so long?
Also, Craig, if I may....what if he started working out and lifting weights WITHOUT steroids? How much of an improvement can be attributed to that? Surely, dedicated people working out clean DO make big gains. So how can one differentiate from those natural gains that helped him as opposed to any that may have been due to steroids?
I think Craig brings up a lot of good points above.
Clearly, taking Bonds numbers as they are, he is in the top three all-time, and has his best seasons are the best ever.
I would also like to see the proof that Griffey didn't take ANY sort of PED. He had the ability to prove he didn't...yet he never fought to have real blood tests, or offer to have his own blood tested.
So what if Griffey was taking something then that is NOW on the banned list(since that list has gotten bigger)? Morality aside, wouldn't that be a PED advantage??
as an answer to your second question, while there is no hard proof, there are strong suspicions that ted williams was a user of amphetamines and was the person who introduced greenies to mlb
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
lots of players took andro back in the 1990's before it was banned including HOFer mike piazza. how do we handle mikes stats? did they happen?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You have a good point.
Exactly. Just because they were not 'illegal' at the time, doesn't mean they didn't get a physical competitive advantage. That is similar to the 1970's Steelers who were roided up.
So what it comes down to for Bonds is that he took similar stuff, but it was illegal at the time....but other players got to enjoy the same physical advantages, but without the discredit??
Bonds had HOF career way before any of this PED came into his universe. Piazza wasn't even good enough to get drafted without a favor from Lasorda as the last pick in the draft. One is in the HOF and the other isn't??
Where do you get THIS?
Barry R. McCaffrey, the director of the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy, attempted to determine whether androstenedione could be classified as an anabolic steroid in July 1999. However, he could not because there is no proof of it promoting muscle growth.
Secondly, we'll have to agree to disagree on "uppers" they are NOT comparable to steroids.
Do you have proof that the politician wasn't in bed with the company???? Knowing how that stuff works, one can take that 'study' with a grain of salt. Piazza got quite good and strong himself.
And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards.
My gosh! I got it from Wikipedia! EVERYONE knows that's the facts. ;-)
When was he banned?
What do you mean? None of them are officially banned.
Bonds will get in. :-(
Didn't I copy your post that said;
"And where does Roger Clemens fit into all of this? There is no definitive proof on him. NO test. His body didn't look like a roider....and he is banned too. He won seven Cy Young awards. Think about that...SEVEN Cy Young awards."
Personally, I would have to give Roger the benefit of the doubt.
I am very suspicious, but if he used, he was smart enough to net get caught.
Ha, yes. I should have said black balled.
I have done significant research on clemens the last year or two and I am firmly of the opinion that there is no proof clemens used PED. there is lots of group think brought on by ESPN talking heads that reported at the time, but no proof.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
So as to original post, I wonder if there was a writer who had a super bowl mvp vote AN> @craig44 said:
Correct.
Also, no proof on Sammy Sosa.
So there is either no definitive proof on the baseball guys, mere hazy suspicion, or no knowledge to the degree of which it helped and when they started, and those guys are all discredited for their accomplishments by fans and writers....and Edelman is a Super Bowl MVP with a positive steroid test under his belt and not a single outcry(other than Craig pointing it out on here).
I would say this thread title/original post is spot on with no defense against it.
Here's what I found on Sosa;
New York Times report that Sammy Sosa is one of the 104 players who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in baseball's 2003 survey testing.
Sammy Sosa, who joined with Mark McGwire in 1998 in a celebrated pursuit of baseball’s single-season home run record, is among the players who tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug in 2003, according to lawyers with knowledge of the drug-testing results from that year.
MLB players would dissagree. look at what adderall did for Chris Davis and check out Aubrey Huffs comments on his adderall use. He believes amphetemines are more effective than steroids for baseball players.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Edelman hasn't hurt anyone's boyhood hero , when that happens.............. outrage!!!!
I have very little faith in the integrity of most people. That’s probably from my 20 years working in a Correctional Facility I guess but to pick and chose which players we want to convict of being a PED user or not a user is grossly wrong, if they got caught then fine form your own opinion, myself I chose to think everyone is suspect for that era including everyone’s idle Griffey, that being said I don’t “Judge” him or anyone that didn’t get caught nor do I bash those that did, it is a business where if you don’t perform then you don’t get contracts and everything else that goes with being a “Star” or a guy simply making a team. There are PED users that hit .200 and were not that good while other guys got maximum performance out of it, there is no line to be drawn in my opinion. The juice era was rampant with users and like anything some get caught while others don’t. It’s a crazy situation that no common ground with ever be found on it. That is the biggest problem with that era of MLB
He's no RANDY MOSS!
wait until he moves past jerry rice for all time playoff receptions.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
In baseball personal stats equal a paycheck. PED use is heavily incentivized . In football its about getting to play because the money is rarely guaranteed. If you are missing a lot of games from injury you will be history. You are forced to use them to keep your roster spot.
are you saying that the ends justify the means? because baseball contracts are also heavily weighted on being in the lineup to accrue those statistics
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Why is it when I quote Jim Bouten it means nothing, but when you find these guys (link to a site would be nice) their opinions are good?
Looked up Adderall, looks pretty powerful, side effects include dizziness, might not be the best for hitting the ball.
Even if they helped him on occasion, he certainly has had an erratic career, like I said before uppers can help, but they can also hurt. Actually making my point.
Being bigger and stronger with steroids is a consistent advantage for several years if administered correctly. Perfect for a guy like Bonds who already had a great career. He gets an unbelievable boost for four or so years jumping him into the stratosphere. He gets off them and his last 2/3 years drop back down to where he belonged, still great but a big drop.
I would like to point out that I said "no juicers" as well.
Baseball statisticians use the tool of comparing peers vs their era's... yet show disdain for Bonds...when 90% of the league was using something.
Bonds won seven MVPS vs the league of PED users....so within his era, his accomplishments are just as good as Babe Ruth's in his era when people of skill were banned from playing, and when 90% of the league only hit for singles.
Both are being compared against their peers who had the same advantages. There really shouldn't be a discredit to Bonds or anyone else when the measuring tool of 'comparing to their peers' is used.
He'll NEVER surpass my RANDY MOSS!
Good point.
Not sure if 90% is anywhere near correct, but good point nonetheless.
Steroids sure do give us a lot to talk about.
Furthermore about Bonds, if his accomplishments are discredited for the years he may have used PED's, then shouldn't the years where he didn't use PED's get more credit when he wasn't using but others were? He was a three time MVP before that, and the best player in baseball for most of that time.
No, you don't get extra credit for doing the right thing.
Yes, he was the best, or one of the best players in baseball before that. Absolutely. He was also the best of the juicers. An awesome ballplayer.
Not a matter of doing the right thing. If it is said he had an advantage taking steroids while some didn't....then wouldn't his stats be at a disadvantage the years he didn't take steroids and some did?
A couple of things...
There’s a lot of silly stuff being said regarding these guys:
1) The ‘proof’ against Clemens is the testimony of Andy Pettitte which lined up exactly with the version of events put forth by Brian McNamee. It is up to individual people to make their own decisions about the HGH use of each man, I guess, and the validity of the proof.
2) Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones and Bill Romanowski were the five star athletes associated with the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative (BALCO). With the exception of Bonds, all have admitted to taking a PED regimen provided by BALCO.
In defense of these two poster boys for PEDs, their fans have turned their overturned convictions and not guilty verdicts for related crimes into ‘there’s no proof’ arguments. That’s nonsense.
To me, the panel that appeared before Congress was great. Palmiero waves his finger and pops a test, Sammy Sosa went from Pepsi commercials and nightly ESPN interviews To ‘no speaka english’ and Mark McGwire didn’t come to talk about the past (which was why the group was convened) and cried when confronted with its reality.
I’ll agree there is no failed test (for those where it’s true) but no proof is a great stretching of the truth.
By that logic, can we see there is no proof that OJ Simpson is a double murderer? Because that trial was heavy on proof yet produced a nonsensical verdict.
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That is all great and all, but lets not forget the main thrust of this thread...Edelman failed a steroid test and was named Super Bowl MVP with everyone knowing he failed a steroid test. Where is the same disdain as above?
As I stated earlier, steroids is an implied part of football culture and that’s not really the case in baseball. I don’t set societal norms and even more rare is the case where I conform to them. But they’re easily observed.
I think the longer and more meaningful history of baseball plays a role, too.
Lastly, pointing out cheating Patriots is met with ‘Drink more Hatorade!’ around major media outlets (and these forums) who prefer ‘ access’ to ‘truth’ - which is more and more prevalent among journalists across the spectrum.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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Football allows murderers, spouse beaters, child beaters, and all kinds of other "undesirables" to play, if their stats are good enough, so PED usage is pretty low on the list of things to be concerned with.
Baseball, at one time at least, was concerned with "integrity of the game" and PED usage by some destroyed that integrity.
Hence the difference in how PED usage is viewed by their fanbases.
Plus, we’re generally more forgiving of the apologetically guilty than snidely innocent with a huge cloud of suspicion as a society.
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By the way, EVERYONE believed Bonds was on something as they handed him regular season MVP after regular season MVP and was referred to as a Future Hall of Famer (isn’t he in that Registry Set?)...
As they did with Edelman in the case of the SB MVP and speculation of his Hall status.
That’s consistent not controversial.
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I loved Randy moss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You are 100% incorrect about the Pettitte testimony. If you go back and look at the transcript you will see. The talking heads spun the narrative they wanted told and the general public are it up, self included. It was only after I did research for myself that I was able to see it. Pettitte s testimony did not like up with macnamees at all. In fact it was a case killer for the prosecution and it was crazy they used him his testimony was consistent from his deposition to the stand. In a nutshell, in 1999 Clemens and Pettitte had a short conversation where Pettitte thought Clemens told him he used hgh. 6 years later, in a separate conversation it came up and Clemens made it clear he had never used and Pettitte then realized he was wrong about his initial understanding of the 1999 conversation. I believe the deposition was in 2008. That would have been 9 years after the initial conversation.
So no, pettitte s testimony was a terrible blow for the prosecution and helped Clemens case. There is no evidence against clemens, just public opinion.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.