Did the system collapse? One more day to find out!
tychojoe
Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭
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tychojoe
Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭
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Sure makes the gold bugs sound sane and reasonable.
Hmmmm...they gladly accept dollars for their "service" but not yuan.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
????? WTF?
There was a time I would have looked at this stuff.
I love the "Mother of All Safe Havens" line!
There is no holy grail, and the markets are manipulated. Carry on.
I knew it would happen.
Where's this sarcasm coming from? What do YOU think will be the fallout from $22 trillion in (official) debt and rising rates?
Let us in on your insight. Add to the knowledge base here.
I knew it would happen.
You should ask yourself about the sarcasm. As for the fallout, I have my own opinions on that but I don't feel like writing an economic thesis to explain them and who can accurately predict the future, let alone the timing of it.
That being the case, you have no ground to stand on and no basis for your criticisms.
Your reference to the holy grail and precious metals advocates was just cynical and provocative, for no reason.
I knew it would happen.
There are many sad things in the world. This is not one of them. Not even close.
collapse is a process, not an event. The camel's back can take one more straw. . . until it can't. The 22 trillion straws are gaining weight.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
What "criticisms" are you even referring to?
Your cynical remark is an attempt to marginalize the opinions that differ from yours, and you decided not to back it up with fact or reason. That's what I'm referring to.
Oh, and I'm (probably) older than you.
I knew it would happen.
Everyone is selling something, from WMDs to PMs. LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
tut, tut - look who's making religiously-stated viewpoints (without backup) for what he's saying.
What's YOUR agenda? Defending your own decisions to own stocks? You've been on this forum making these types of comments for awhile now. Let's hear your reasoning.
Rising rates will compete with the ability of those companies to make a competitive IRR. Let's hear your reasoning...………..I'm interested in learning.
I knew it would happen.
That's what They said at 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 trillion, and every straw in between. And what they'll be saying at 25, 30, 50, 100... long after everyone reading this is gone.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Goody. Another fortune teller.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I'll buy that as I'm not trying to get personal.
But, you did. Let's hear your reasoning, if you are so sure of your opinions.
I knew it would happen.
I understand Baley's approach, and I know where cohodk is coming from - so I welcome their comments. We each have something to learn. You haven't offered anything but criticisms and disparaging commentary since you've been here.
So, let's hear your reasoning and a little backup.
I knew it would happen.
"holy grail"
"very young"
"religiously-read"
"knucklehead"
= attempts to marginalize
Now that we've cleared that up, why do you think all assets are overvalued at this time?
You don't think that the dollar is overvalued?
I knew it would happen.
I have to go now, but I'll look forward to reading your reasoning on the matter.
I knew it would happen.
We're all just chitchating and bs-ing, it's much more fun when it's about concepts and the way the world works, than about each other.
Criticizing us is what our families are for, and what we come here to get away from!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
$100 trillion yes, unless there's a 10 year-old reading. It will be interesting to see $50 trillion though and those of us alive 20 years from now will find out.
I agree with cohodk's Japan analogy. That's where it's headed near term. Long term........?
I'll look forward to reading your reasoning on the matter.
Still waiting.
So every time you state things like "manipulated", "saving dollars" and on and on, you're not doing the same?
Nope, I'm not making those comments about other posters or to disparage them.
Please advise why you believe that all assets are overvalued at this time. Does that mean you think dollars (and bonds, i.e. - debt instruments) are the best place to retain purchasing power?
Why?
I knew it would happen.
Nobody expressed a devotion to that website. What I find interesting is that it gives a fairly good picture of arbitrage between the dollar and the yuan - in terms of the precious metals. It's interesting to see it in realtime. That's all.
I agree that it's good to have a cash reserve, I don't know that it's king so much as it is a reasonable hedge. I don't think interest rates will spike, but I do think that they will continue to rise until there's a problem with liquidity and a stock market decline. That's wherein the problem lies.
If you are nimble with short term stock trades in a volatile market, more power to ya. I don't like bonds either, but it's not because of a poor risk/reward ratio - it's because there is simply nowhere to run between out-of-control debt and rising rates.
Do you hold your stocks in certificate form and in your name? Is the stock listed in the clearing house name? Electronic trading is all so easy, until it stops. How many flash crashes have there been now?
I don't see much value in comparing the total value of above ground gold to the values of the stock market or the real estate market because they simply aren't the same types of assets and they each have different characteristics and are traded differently.
Which brings us to the case for precious metals. Given that all markets are manipulated and that the politicians & banking system don't function with our best interests in mind, in most cases I'll take the precious metals over paper "assets". Prices fluctuate - they always have - but I'll be surprised if gold makes it to 3 digit territory anytime soon, unless the stock market crashes by 60%. Then, it's possible I suppose.
There's no holy grail and no conspiracy here. The issues are debt, derivatives, HFT and corruption in the system. Pick your poison. I know what I trust, and what I don't. Thanks for the response.
In 2011, I believe the value of all gold was worth more than every U.S. business in existence.
That's a new one on me. First time I've ever heard that. One of the big arguments against using gold as money is "there isn't enough gold" to support the economy. It's nonsense, but that's the argument.
You do realize, I hope, that the bond market completely dwarfs the stock market in total value, and it's the bond market that's in trouble on multiple levels.
I knew it would happen.
Bid/Ask 1089.80 / 1279.80
Low/High 1089.80 / 1281.40
Change -190.60 -14.89%
per kitco. computer glitch or major hacking?
Not so...per kitco:
Did gold really go down 190.60?
Yes. The stronger US Dollar was responsible for 19.20 of that drop.
Gold price Decrease due to Strengthening of USD-19.20Gold price Change due to Predominant Sellers -171.40Gold Price: Total Change-190.60
If the stock Markets tank why can’t gold?
Ain't that peculiar?
I knew it would happen.
shoulda bought the dip.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Not a peculiar as the silver action.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
reminiscent of the Pink Floyd album cover......
I knew it would happen.
No conflating two independent variables here. Your plan involves wishing and hoping, along with good timing. Just to be clear, nobody's saying that stocks don't have growth potential. Past history says otherwise. But, past history says a lot of other things as well.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
I knew it would happen.
Time for an updated asset allocation thread!
28% real estate 37% stocks 14% coins 9% cash 12% other semi liquid tangible (vehicles, guns, gems, art, antiques, artifacts)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Because they're way, way more liquid, as well as worth more than all the other "stuff" put together. All of us on here love our gold and silver, while only some of us don't hate stocks and rental property.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I'd include 2% pineapples in that 12% mix.
If counting perishables, we're overweighted oranges at present.
Huge citrus glut here. Juicing makes them more liquid.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Nice screen captures, derryb. The kitco charts have now been "massaged".
I knew it would happen.
Less than 24 hours to go....unless you're in China, where I suppose the system has collapsed. Can anyone confirm if China is still there? Is there murder in the streets? Who has the peach pit?
PS....I love this place. Carry on. 😀🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Massaged or messaged?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Looks almost like an oscilloscope capture of an ignition system. Maybe someone was trying to diagnose a misfire in his old Chevy and posted the wrong capture.
My Ebay Store
our GDP is in the trillions
our FRNs in circulation is about $1 Trillion
how can billions in gold support the economy?
Trying to change jmski52's mindset reminds me of an old saying:
"Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."
@derryb said:
collapse is a process, not an event. The camel's back can take one more straw. . . until it can't. The 22 trillion straws are gaining weight.
That's what They said at 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 trillion, and every straw in between. And what they'll be saying at 25, 30, 50, 100... long after everyone reading this is gone.
Baley, answer this - when they said all that, and when all of that debt was being created, rates were at Zero. What happens to the economy, to company finances and to taxes - when higher rates on Treasuries eat into the federal budget as these instruments are rolled over?
Do a little "back of the envelope" math. Let us know your conclusions.
our GDP is in the trillions
our FRNs in circulation is about $1 Trillion
how can billions in gold support the economy?
I ask you - trillions of what, exactly? dollars? debt notes? keystrokes? Accounting is a funny thing. You can use any unit of measure - thousands, millions, billions, trillions, quadrillions. In this digital age, you can use any division of any chosen unit of measure - if you really wanted accuracy, regardless of the underlying basis of value. And you could still have 100% convertibility to back it up. The impracticality argument about using gold is specious.
The reason that governments won't use anything finite is that it imposes accountability and hard decisions when it comes to spending. This is a major contributor to graft & corruption. And stealing from taxpayers. Zero accountability, for the same exact actions that would put you and I into prison.
Don't use gold. Use something else finite that can't be synthesized. Same difference. Gold just happens to be more universally-accepted as a tangible asset of value and gold has the basic attributes of money that make it unique, so it's not a stretch to specify gold.
I knew it would happen.
Fixed it for you.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Gold is finite? Haha
Universal accepted? I'm sure the Space Bros dont give a damn about it....let alone the 6.9 billion folk who may never even seen an ounce of gold.
Blood is much more finite and you'll see a lot more of that before gold is ever a currency standard.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
well, I'd like gold to be worth a hundred thousand dollars an ounce, too, but that is not going to happen.
well, I'd like gold to be worth a hundred thousand dollars an ounce, too, but that is not going to happen.
So basically, you agree with derryb that the dollar is worth about 1/100th what it should be worth. What do ya suppose it the reason for that?
I knew it would happen.
I think he means, he'd like gold to be $100k an ounce, and everything else pretty much the same price it is now. Me too!
"Should" is an awful word, whenever I read or hear it, I wince a little.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
So the dollar should be worth 100x more? If the dollar was worth 100x more, wouldnt everything be priced at 1% of current price?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I said exactly what I meant. The reason that the dollar is 1/100th what it should be worth is because of it's devaluation via fractional reserve banking & overissuance of debt by the corrupt banking system, in conjunction with chronic overspending and bailouts for their business cronies & donors, by corrupt politicians and continual skimming & front-running the stock market with HFT and market manipulation by Wall Street.
Without the corruption, the dollar would be worth it's fair value based on transparency and free markets. Gold would be worth whatever it's supposed to be worth. If gold were used as an underlying basis for a currency, the currency wouldn't be subject to the kind of manipulation we now have, and the politicians would have to be responsible for the positions that they take and the policies that they implement.
That about sums it up. I didn't begin to imply how I'd like gold to be priced. But thank-you for playing.
I knew it would happen.
I was referring to MsMorrisine's post, rather than yours.
We used to be on the gold standard and the panics and depressions were far worse, as was the standard of living, and practically everything else about the economy.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
We used to be on the gold standard and the panics and depressions were far worse, as was the standard of living, and practically everything else about the economy.
The standard of living has improved because of advances in just about every facet of the society. In my opinion, the panics & depressions were growing pains apart from whether or not the gold standard was in effect. Leverage & debt, promoted by bankers, are always a factor in exacerbating the ups & downs in the business cycle.
I knew it would happen.
And the booms and busts and market cycles aren't "growing pains", apart from the status of GOLD! anymore?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry