Is authentication about to become more important than grading?
291fifth
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Back in the 1970's when ANACS was started at the ANA it was only about authentication. Grading came later and quickly became the much more important part of the service so far as submitters were concerned. Grading was where the money was to be made.
In the 1980's and later PCGS, NGC and many other companies entered the field. Authentication was important but grading was still where the money was to be made so far as submitters were concerned.
Today the big money is still made via grading so far as submitters are concerned but are things about to change?
The quality and variety of counterfeit coins coming out of Asia has now reached the point where most collectors and many dealers will be fooled by what is being offered.
Have we now reached the tipping point where authentication will become as least as important, or even more important, as grading? What do you think?
How will the hobby be affected if well made counterfeits enter the marketplace in increasing numbers?
Comments
i think authentication is important in some instances but when the authenticated coin is in a No-Grade holder it hurts more than helps. there are exceptions. we recently sent 10 Bust Dollars to PCGS that had wide ranging problems, nothing bad, stuff like an old cleaning, graffitti and the like. we knew most wouldn't straight grade but being in a Variety attributed PCGS holder will help them sell.
When, and sadly I think that is when, authentication becomes as important as grading, this hobby will be in big trouble. Most collectors do not start out collecting slabs. They start with pocket change and move up.
There are many coins, like common date Morgan Dollars, that have collector values that are too low relative to the authentication fee. Unfortunately the Chinese have counterfeited large quantities of these coins as common dates in the “circulated” grades. You can’t buy these coins at venues like a flea market or antique store without running the risk if getting caught with one if you are not very familiar with the genuine article. That is a major problem for the hobby.
The sadest part is the Chinese counterfeiters have gotten into every aspect of U.S. numismatics.
I wish I had the answers, but I don’t. Government does not care and the ANA has taken a backseat when it comes to combating this problem. All we can do as collectors is to try to help those are getting started in the hobby with advice.
It already is IMHO.
The counterfeiters are becoming more advanced and their products more deceptive. IMO, many are becoming more skeptical of third party grading anyway because of grade inflation and inconsistency in grading "standards."
The only people who are aware of and worry about this problem are coin collectors.
Nobody else cares.
Pete
Agree this is a large issue. PCGS has testified to Congress and the Hobby Protection Act was recently amended, however, I haven't seen any changes on venues.
If anything, it has recently been expanded to cast hobo coins with seemingly nothing to stop those.
Authenticity has always been more important than grade.
"Wow, your fake coin is MS70".
Agree. I've paid more for coins in Genuine holders than I would otherwise pay. It depends on the kind of details.
Because China.
Unfortunately, I think it is that combined with the following from @BuffaloIronTail:
In other areas, US and foreign governments step in, for example with movies and music (DCMA, MPAA), luxury handbags (LV), etc. EBay's own authentication service now handles handbags. You would imagine governments would care about coins being counterfeited but it seems like it's only contemporary counterfeits used for commerce today that they care to take action at that level.
Authentication has always been the primary task of ANACS, PCGS and NGC. If an item of false or altered then it CANNOT be graded.
Today's collectors are hungup on "grading" because that's where the money is - however, absent authentic items the money would be in separating good from bad.
I think there are a few issues at play, but the obvious one is authentication. I realize grading became the "bread and butter" of the TPG's, but implicit in grading is authentication. That's one reason I look at "Genuine" coins. Even though there might be some issue... for me and my budget... they would suffice for my type collection. There are certain issues rare enough to make that "Genuine" holder appealing... I can live with an "Old Cleanings or Scratches" on a Small Eagle Quarter, especially if the price takes this into consideration.
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Authenticity trumps all!
I dumped my Macedonian gold Stater last month after discovering that NGC doesn't guarantee authenticity on ancients.
Made a bit of profit and now have no use for ancients unless they're unpricey.
Is "unpricey" a word?
it should go hand in hand anyway, jmo
Yeah it should but I remember being happy with the old ANACS flips that said it was real.
What is the point of authenticating something and not backing up your opinion? I guess they still guarantee US and foreign coins
This is not the "old days" of ANACS, the first US authentication service. As I recall back then, there were no consequences for making an authentication error. We made a few by taking the word of numismatic professionals yet we quickly learned to "authenticate the consultants opinions" and our errors "dried up."
Of course today, a submitter would not be happy if we held his coin for several months to be 100% positive of our opinion.
I guess several mistakes on valuable ancient coins could put a TPGS right out of business so it is best not to guarantee anything. Guarantee or not, a TPGS provides something we need.
Authenticated for me; grading is secondary. I'm afraid I have reached that age where the counterfeiters are better than my eyes.
Yes it's nice to have a coin in a nice slab, but I only found out about the no guarantee on authenticity for ancients a month or so ago. If I'm going to buy a coin, I want it to be authentic and anything less is just paying money for plastic in my opinion.
ANACS shipped an 8 Escudo of mine all over the country in the old days. As you say, it took a looooong time to get it back.
With "unable to authenticate" as the result.
I just wasn't comfy with a coin that I ....wanted... to be ancient also being unqualifiedly genuine.
Many of us are concerned with the counterfeits, and not just personally but how they may affect the Hobby and new collectors in general- I would think nothing could be more deflating than finding out after the fact the new addition is counterfeit.
Unfortunately it seems our best current defense is ourselves- education and experience and the willingness to share with others what we as a group have learned.
Counterfeits have been a thorn in the Hobby for ages, but as they get better we somehow need to as well, which is where forums such as this can be invaluable.
And I too have a few higher detail examples (that are less than genuine) in authentic TPG slabs…
I paid $400 for one of these from a fellow numismatist who sold it to me for my C/F collection. It's a beauty and makes up for the hole in my heart when I had to pass on a genuine specimen in the '60s that was $200!
It is extremely important to have authentic coins. The TPGS, government, and Numismatic associations will need to step up their game to combat this scourge. In the near future I suspect the State funded counterfeiters will, if not already, exceed the quality level of their false products to where it becomes undetectable without expensive equipment.
If the counterfeiting keeps-up and if there is no enforcement... heck, why not make a seperate grading scale for counterfeits. Ancients have the term “Darkside.” We can call this the “Blackside.”
Weeding out fakes and problem coins is more important to me. Too many "raw for a reason" coins out there.
They should be inseparable where assigning monetary value. Peace Roy
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Authentication is of the utmost importance.
When a coin comes into a TPG the first question to be answered is "Is it real?"
I've submitted a coin for authentication only, knowing full well that it would not receive a grade.
Great topic.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
The authenticity of a coin is the only reason to
"Buy the plastic". If after a few years you still need the
TPG for grading purposes then another hobby
should be in your future.
One is as important as the other. When I send a coin in i expect authentication and grade opinion.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Now that hobbies reaching such commercially financial success, all will be targeted and very well may be the end of the hobby as we know it. The only collectibles authenticated will be high value and with much less of trustworthy common coins available raw the hobby will change and perhaps disappear as we know it.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
80-90% of the time I slab for authentication/lineage. I rarely submit a coin for a grade. (Unless I have a coupon that I have to use up.
)
Before you spend serious money on anything, know your source and make sure he / she will back up your purchase in this situation. Also, know what the coin you are buying should look like before actually buying it. Not foolproof, but these two items will provide a safety net of sorts.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
It's already happening, China, Russia, and North Korea have been FLOODING the market for close to 2 decades now. Don't expect anything to be done about it, greed rules. Counterfeit coins are the least of our worries, they appear to be counterfeiting our entire country, all the way to the top.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Obviously authentication and grading are both important but to answer your question as to which is more important it depends on what coin you are talking about. If you are talking about a coin that is heavily counterfeited such as a pre-1933 US gold coin or a key date coin then authentication is more important. If you are talking about a modern coin such as a coin from a recent proof set or a modern commemorative coin which is rarely counterfeited then grading is far more important to someone looking for a top pop coin for a registry set..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
As counterfeiters get better, first-rate authentication skills will become more valuable, and second-rate skills will become less important. After all, the more people depend on the expert’s opinion, the less anyone else’s opinion matters. (You could say the same about coin doctors and grading skills, of course.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Authentication of coins is extremely important. More so in today's market. Grading has become a focus due to the business side of the hobby - and the ego side. Because of the counterfeiting issue, buying raw coins is very risky. However, separating authentication from grading will not be possible (other than 'genuine' assignment). Once authenticity is established, the next criteria, for most collectors, is grade. Cheers, RickO
If any, things are getting worse in the future, NOT better.
UNLESS we collectors and YOU dealers and YOU TPG's all unite and go political.
I have written about this at least a dozen times in this and other forums.
However, besides complaining, nobody seems to share the idea or even be interested.
here it is with a preamble to understand better:
when anyone enters the USA, Canada, or many other countries, A so called Customs declaration must be completed and signed. This cars has all sort of questions on it which must be answered . Its the law and a condition for entry to the country being granted unless you are a citizen.
since limited possession of Cannabis is now legal in Canada ( federally legal) a additional question was added to the customs entry form: Do you bring any cannabis or related or drugs into Canada?
Well, that did not take long to initiate and surely did not cost a fortune, nor did it require years of expensive studies. It was just done to"better control" narcotics, even though now legal.
How about adding ONE more question to the Landing Card?
How about something like this:
" Have you acquired any US, Canadian etcxx currency, authentic or not, while out of the country?
They already want to know if you have $10,000 or more on you.
It would be easy and a good way to stem at least carrying the fakes from the orient or other "hot spot".
It would only take the courage for some politician making the decision to do it.
So, we can all write a letter to our local, state, and federal politicians. we can copy these letters to ALL congress people etc or whoever they are. In Canada it is Free to send mail to a federal politician via Canada post.
easy peacy.....just like that and I guess that they eventually will listen.
All we need now is this: for some one here on the forum to express the concern in a few sentences and request the elected person to help making these changes! we would all copy the letter and send it.
Think about it!!!!! please....constantly Complaining will definitely not make any change!
They are flooding the market with 99% junk. The other 1% is very deceptive. So far, all of them (?) are detected eventually.
And here is a thought, if the fakes get so good that they pass every test, get assimilated into the market as has happened before, they may as well be genuine as they will bring the same joy to a collector.
Bottom line, get educated. There is some wonderful and important research going on by a group of collectors who have had no to little training in authentication AFAIK. They take the time studying genuine coins and then search for coins on the internet and at shows with repeating marks. Gives me an idea for a new quiz...stay tuned.
That’s great but human labor is so inefficient. Seems like a job better suited for a computer, with every coin being checked against a database before being graded, sold at auction, etc.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Can I play?
Absolutely, and I believe this is being done yet still in its infancy. Many of the counterfeits that are slipping past today are circulated or have problems that make them difficult to detect. I missed a corroded Hawaiian Cent that now resides in our holder somewhere. I'll gladly add it to my C/F collection if it ever comes back for review.
NO My post was all about you and your group and how you have aided both the TPGS's and collectors.
Not to hijack the thread but look they are even counterfeiting 90% junk. Christ I'm going to have to start weighing all my rolls of junk silver now. lol
https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-14pcs-1932-1964-WASHINGTON-QUARTER-DOLLARS-90-silver-Rare-Coin/113455357700?epid=170482878&hash=item1a6a775f04:g:FfMAAOSwkHxcFVdP:rk:65:pf:0&LH_BIN=1
US 14pcs 1932 - 1964 WASHINGTON QUARTER DOLLARS 90%Silver 10%Copper Rare Coin
Hi, It`s my honor that you are visiting my shop.
This Item Is Replica Coin
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
It is a game I play, earlier this year I detected a bunch of Australian shillings (5 different dates) that were high grade fakes but had repeating marks. Some had already been slabbed by PCGs for other collectors. I sent 2 of mine in with a bunch of real coins (expecting the 2 fakes to be detected as I wanted an example of the bodybag label) and was shocked when I got the message that the submission had been graded and was on its way back to me (including both fakes scoring MS65s which for their dates made them just below top of the pops and very pricy).
So now those 2 fakes in genuine slabs reside in my counterfeit collection as a teaching aid. Dumb thing was I had already published a list of the markers for the fakes and yet the "experts" didn't spot the fakes. I even let PCGS know that the coins were fake and slab numbers needed yanking as well as pulling the image of one of the coins from the PCGS population report where they were using it to display what a choice shilling looked like.
Are there photos of this identifying the repeating marks online?
In my 20 years collecting - 15 with the TPGs, authentication is all that has mattered for me. Sure, I haven't complained when my XF40 gets a XF45 grade, nor has it bothered me much when my AU50 is graded XF45. I just need the holder so that another collector will buy my coin at the fairest market price, and that is all.
I didn't realize that counterfeiting was such an issue for this hobby. I can say this, if counterfeiting techniques improve and if counterfeiters can and will replicate the common coins of all series, then this hobby is done for.
I can't speak for these shillings but all of the researched counterfeits we have documented with the repeating attribution marks can be found on Coin Week- search "counterfeit".