Funny how you can make excuses for Fouts having a bad defense but you don't take into account Namath's injuries.
Neither of these guys are top 5 but if Namath was healthy it would have been nice to see what he could have done. Look up some of Namath's yardage totals, he did manage to get to and win a SB.
GOAT discussions are pointless.
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@perkdog said:
It’s pointless because there should be no other QB in the discussion other than Brady
This guy.
Here’s something I don’t think gets enough consideration: Joe Montana had a Hall of Fame quarterback pushing him out the door and his time in San Francisco ended on a hit that (almost) no player would deliver today.
I’m not one for guaranteeing what would happen in a ‘what if’ scenario but it’s fair to say that Joe Montana proved he still had something in the tank and performed pretty well in KC; I think he could have lead those Steve Young era teams to very similar - if not better - results. Mind you, I’m not trying to downplay how good Steve Young was, either - he was awesome. But that entire team was special and I think Joe could have had more rings to add to his already bountiful collection.
This coming from a Giant fan who was fighting against these guys tooth and nail. The undefeated MNF showdown was a particularly rough one for me 😉
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Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led. Bottom line Montana had HOF’ers all around him especially Jerry Rice. Steve Young took over and immediately brought them to the Super Bowl, the Pats took away Bledsoe and Brady won and won again, Cassel stepped in and no playoffs.
I rate Brady right up there with Montana and a few others, but let's get off this idea that he did it with no help. His teams had to be pretty good on defense, and he (like all QB's) needed some protection from his offensive line.
He also had a couple of HOF guys to throw the ball to in Gronk and Moss. He couldn't win with Moss (nobody could).
Brady stepped in and won three SB's, those early teams must have been good. Since then they have been to the playoffs 12 times and won it all twice?
To say there is no room for discussion (I would say the entire discussion is impossible to prove) is ridiculous.
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@perkdog said:
Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led.
Huh? The 2001-2007 Patriots had one of the best collection of football players on defense I have ever seen; not just in terms of talent but also football IQ. And I don’t think there was even one season where Tom Brady had even an average offensive line. Let’s not change the narrative at the end like it’s been Brady all by himself in his career. That’s just ridiculous. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Bottom line Montana had HOF’ers all around him especially Jerry Rice.
Brady has and has had a very competent collection of guys to throw to in every season. HOFer Randy Moss comes to mind, as Wes Welker, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Rob Gronkowski, Shane Vereen, Aaron Hernandez to name a few. All of them very good receivers. Even now, Edelman, Gordon and Gronk? I’d give you the Giants our three guys straight up. Have fun with Odell ‘Cancer’ Beckham, by the way. Or as I call him, T.O. 2.0...
Steve Young took over and immediately brought them to the Super Bowl,
Exactly.
the Pats took away Bledsoe and Brady won and won again, Cassel stepped in and no playoffs.
Drew Bledsoe ever do anything before or after?
Matt Cassell took over and ‘no playoffs’ is a completely ridiculous way to say that. Cassell (a chump) took the Pats to an 11-5 record and missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker technicality.
THIS - to me - is the strength of the argument against Tom Brady. When he has been hurt or suspended, Bellichek has taken Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garroppolo and Matt Cassell (henceforth known as Curly, Larry and Moe) and produced a 13-6 record. That does not mean that Tom Brady is a product of the system - the guy is neck and neck with Joe Montana. No doubt. But those are 3 bad QBs. Maybe Jimmy will prove me wrong though I doubt it...
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@perkdog said:
Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led.
Huh? The 2001-2007 Patriots had one of the best collection of football players on defense I have ever seen; not just in terms of talent but also football IQ. And I don’t think there was even one season where Tom Brady had even an average offensive line. Let’s not change the narrative at the end like it’s been Brady all by himself in his career. That’s just ridiculous. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Bottom line Montana had HOF’ers all around him especially Jerry Rice.
Brady has and has had a very competent collection of guys to throw to in every season. HOFer Randy Moss comes to mind, as Wes Welker, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Rob Gronkowski, Shane Vereen, Aaron Hernandez to name a few. All of them very good receivers. Even now, Edelman, Gordon and Gronk? I’d give you the Giants our three guys straight up. Have fun with Odell ‘Cancer’ Beckham, by the way. Or as I call him, T.O. 2.0...
Steve Young took over and immediately brought them to the Super Bowl,
Exactly.
the Pats took away Bledsoe and Brady won and won again, Cassel stepped in and no playoffs.
Drew Bledsoe ever do anything before or after?
Matt Cassell took over and ‘no playoffs’ is a completely ridiculous way to say that. Cassell (a chump) took the Pats to an 11-5 record and missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker technicality.
THIS - to me - is the strength of the argument against Tom Brady. When he has been hurt or suspended, Bellichek has taken Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garroppolo and Matt Cassell (henceforth known as Curly, Larry and Moe) and produced a 13-6 record. That does not mean that Tom Brady is a product of the system - the guy is neck and neck with Joe Montana. No doubt. But those are 3 bad QBs. Maybe Jimmy will prove me wrong though I doubt it...
Im not saying Brady had terrible teams by any stretch but if your going to argue that he had just as much talent around him as Joe Montana then I guess I cant continue to debate with you. Regardless of your counter points about Cassell and Bledsoe Im stating FACTS. And talking like Brissett and Garroppolo played significantly enough to even bring them up is utterly ridiculous. Oh and check out the number of games Montana had Rice for vs how many games Brady had Moss for, its a little bit of a huge gap.
@perkdog said:
Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led.
Im not saying Brady had terrible teams by any stretch but if your going to argue that he had just as much talent around him as Joe Montana then I guess I cant continue to debate with you. Regardless of your counter points about Cassell and Bledsoe Im stating FACTS. And talking like Brissett and Garroppolo played significantly enough to even bring them up is utterly ridiculous. Oh and check out the number of games Montana had Rice for vs how many games Brady had Moss for, its a little bit of a huge gap.
I’m not saying they had the same talent - Montana played in an era when you could keep your own talent more easily and stack your team pretty well (90s Cowboys and 49ers as a great example).
However, this is what happens when you point out to a Patriot fan that three schmucks basically had the same win percentage as Tom Brady while he was gone . Tom Brady has missed 20 games and those are the three guys who started in his place. They compiled a 14-6 record. In the one complete season that he missed, the Patriots went 11-5 (basically Tom Brady’s average season) without him. Yes, they did miss the playoffs in a three way tie scenario but let’s no pretend that the Patriots fell apart without him.
Those are the FACTS - not cherry picked to flatter Tommy Boy.
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One will always debate the influence of those around the GOAT candidates. What would Barry's numbers be like if he had a front line. Would Brady have had the same stellar career had he not been coached by Belichick. Would Jack Morris have had a lower ERA if he had not allegedly played to the score?
Add in the drugs prevalent in professional sports and soft ball chicanery as well as multi decades between careers and you will never come to a satisfactory conclusion.
Having said that, Montana was the best QB in NFL history. I really didn't like him at the time and favored Elway and Montana. Last two minutes in a game, no one surpassed Montana, with Brady closely at his heels.
@perkdog said:
Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led.
Im not saying Brady had terrible teams by any stretch but if your going to argue that he had just as much talent around him as Joe Montana then I guess I cant continue to debate with you. Regardless of your counter points about Cassell and Bledsoe Im stating FACTS. And talking like Brissett and Garroppolo played significantly enough to even bring them up is utterly ridiculous. Oh and check out the number of games Montana had Rice for vs how many games Brady had Moss for, its a little bit of a huge gap.
I’m not saying they had the same talent - Montana played in an era when you could keep your own talent more easily and stack your team pretty well (90s Cowboys and 49ers as a great example).
However, this is what happens when you point out to a Patriot fan that three schmucks basically had the same win percentage as Tom Brady while he was gone . Tom Brady has missed 20 games and those are the three guys who started in his place. They compiled a 14-6 record. In the one complete season that he missed, the Patriots went 11-5 (basically Tom Brady’s average season) without him. Yes, they did miss the playoffs in a three way tie scenario but let’s no pretend that the Patriots fell apart without him.
Those are the FACTS - not cherry picked to flatter Tommy Boy.
Im not Cherry picking anything, here is another stat for you, I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks. Thats THREE SEASONS of games where he led his team to wins over 18 years of playing in the NFL. That is a stat that should count for something as far as any GOAT conversation goes right? I mean his 5th Super Bowl win was the greatest example bar none. We can go over any other stat and Brady beats Montana in every category except Super Bowl win percentage so I will concede that but 8 Super Bowls to 4 is just insane, again over 18 years of football, the guy is in his 40's and still playing at a Super Bowl level. I dont expect every fan outside of NE to agree with me but before Brady became so good I had enough NFL sense to say Montana was the best and I dont like the 49'ers but enough evidence has surfaced as far as Im concerned now to say Brady has taken over the best ever conversation and wrapped it up.
@perkdog said:
I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks.
Brady still has a way to go to catch up with the GOAT.
I thought I already told you that your nonsense is typical for a jealous Pats hater? If you want to join the adults put something on the table at least
@perkdog said:
I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks.
Brady still has a way to go to catch up with the GOAT.
I thought I already told you that your nonsense is typical for a jealous Pats hater? If you want to join the adults put something on the table at least
@perkdog said:
I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks.
Brady still has a way to go to catch up with the GOAT.
I thought I already told you that your nonsense is typical for a jealous Pats hater? If you want to join the adults put something on the table at least
@perkdog said:
Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led.
Im not saying Brady had terrible teams by any stretch but if your going to argue that he had just as much talent around him as Joe Montana then I guess I cant continue to debate with you. Regardless of your counter points about Cassell and Bledsoe Im stating FACTS. And talking like Brissett and Garroppolo played significantly enough to even bring them up is utterly ridiculous. Oh and check out the number of games Montana had Rice for vs how many games Brady had Moss for, its a little bit of a huge gap.
I’m not saying they had the same talent - Montana played in an era when you could keep your own talent more easily and stack your team pretty well (90s Cowboys and 49ers as a great example).
However, this is what happens when you point out to a Patriot fan that three schmucks basically had the same win percentage as Tom Brady while he was gone . Tom Brady has missed 20 games and those are the three guys who started in his place. They compiled a 14-6 record. In the one complete season that he missed, the Patriots went 11-5 (basically Tom Brady’s average season) without him. Yes, they did miss the playoffs in a three way tie scenario but let’s no pretend that the Patriots fell apart without him.
Those are the FACTS - not cherry picked to flatter Tommy Boy.
Im not Cherry picking anything, here is another stat for you, I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks. Thats THREE SEASONS of games where he led his team to wins over 18 years of playing in the NFL. That is a stat that should count for something as far as any GOAT conversation goes right? I mean his 5th Super Bowl win was the greatest example bar none. We can go over any other stat and Brady beats Montana in every category except Super Bowl win percentage so I will concede that but 8 Super Bowls to 4 is just insane, again over 18 years of football, the guy is in his 40's and still playing at a Super Bowl level. I dont expect every fan outside of NE to agree with me but before Brady became so good I had enough NFL sense to say Montana was the best and I dont like the 49'ers but enough evidence has surfaced as far as Im concerned now to say Brady has taken over the best ever conversation and wrapped it up.
Going over stats and declaring Brady the winner is going to be relatively easy to do without context. I could break it down to minutia but I'll do it this way:
From the recorded beginnings of the NFL until 2007, the NFL had one season where a QB threw for 5,000 yards and since then it has happened 8 times.
Digest that for a second.
And let's also consider this, in the era of every NFL game coming down to the last two minutes, is it no wonder that nearly all the guys who lead the league's history in comebacks are playing right now?
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@perkdog said:
I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks.
Brady still has a way to go to catch up with the GOAT.
I thought I already told you that your nonsense is typical for a jealous Pats hater? If you want to join the adults put something on the table at least
And I'm not saying this to get your GOAT (pun intended), but the scales have to tip in Joe's favor some for his perfect record (and perfect performances) in the Super Bowl.
I'm guessing you don't want to talk about the alleged 'cheating in the Super Bowl' allegations levied from Eric Mangini, Carolina and the Rams (neither of which was ever proven though Roger Goodell burned what he saw and took away draft picks and levied massive fines) and the dramatically different playoff records post and pre that scandal? Or the 4 game suspension Tom Brady earned for cheating? We can leave those out if you want since they probably have more to do with character than on field performance (though losses to the Rams and Panthers may have changed the storyline a bit, methinks).
Both were excellent Saturday Night Live hosts as well. Joe going upstairs to master bait and Tom Brady's Sexual Harrassment video were both fantastic! (Maybe edge Brady - that one is a classic!)
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@perkdog said:
Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led.
Im not saying Brady had terrible teams by any stretch but if your going to argue that he had just as much talent around him as Joe Montana then I guess I cant continue to debate with you. Regardless of your counter points about Cassell and Bledsoe Im stating FACTS. And talking like Brissett and Garroppolo played significantly enough to even bring them up is utterly ridiculous. Oh and check out the number of games Montana had Rice for vs how many games Brady had Moss for, its a little bit of a huge gap.
I’m not saying they had the same talent - Montana played in an era when you could keep your own talent more easily and stack your team pretty well (90s Cowboys and 49ers as a great example).
However, this is what happens when you point out to a Patriot fan that three schmucks basically had the same win percentage as Tom Brady while he was gone . Tom Brady has missed 20 games and those are the three guys who started in his place. They compiled a 14-6 record. In the one complete season that he missed, the Patriots went 11-5 (basically Tom Brady’s average season) without him. Yes, they did miss the playoffs in a three way tie scenario but let’s no pretend that the Patriots fell apart without him.
Those are the FACTS - not cherry picked to flatter Tommy Boy.
Im not Cherry picking anything, here is another stat for you, I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks. Thats THREE SEASONS of games where he led his team to wins over 18 years of playing in the NFL. That is a stat that should count for something as far as any GOAT conversation goes right? I mean his 5th Super Bowl win was the greatest example bar none. We can go over any other stat and Brady beats Montana in every category except Super Bowl win percentage so I will concede that but 8 Super Bowls to 4 is just insane, again over 18 years of football, the guy is in his 40's and still playing at a Super Bowl level. I dont expect every fan outside of NE to agree with me but before Brady became so good I had enough NFL sense to say Montana was the best and I dont like the 49'ers but enough evidence has surfaced as far as Im concerned now to say Brady has taken over the best ever conversation and wrapped it up.
Going over stats and declaring Brady the winner is going to be relatively easy to do without context. I could break it down to minutia but I'll do it this way:
From the recorded beginnings of the NFL until 2007, the NFL had one season where a QB threw for 5,000 yards and since then it has happened 8 times.
Digest that for a second.
And let's also consider this, in the era of every NFL game coming down to the last two minutes, is it no wonder that nearly all the guys who lead the league's history in comebacks are playing right now?
So holding it against Brady for being the best in his playing field is fair? The game has evolved to favor the passers without question but it isn’t just stats it’s the fact that he has been a consistent winner for 18 years! 8 Super Bowls, AFC Championship games, playoffs every year. I’m just not sure how anyone can doubt him over taking Montana unless your agenda is to just dispute that Montana was better regardless of everything I’ve thrown at you about this. Either way we can go back and forth till be are both blue in the face and neither of us will change our minds. Montana was a legend without question, taking the fan base out of it I would bet that impartial NFL fans given all the points and counter points would agree that Brady has the top spot as the best. I respect your argument, you definitely carry yourself well in the debate I just know neither of us will budge and that’s OK because that is what makes sports talk
That "cheating" goes both ways just ask Jerry Rice about all those years he was cheating when he used Stickum then admitted it publicly after the fact.
I'm sure Stickum played no part when Jerry caught 11 passes for 215yds & a td which got him named SB MVP in 1988.
How about his 7 receptions, 148yds & 3tds from Montana in SB XXIV?
@erikthredd said:
That "cheating" goes both ways just ask Jerry Rice about all those years he was cheating when he used Stickum then admitted it publicly after the fact.
I'm sure Stickum played no part when Jerry caught 11 passes for 215yds & a td which got him named SB MVP in 1988.
How about his 7 receptions, 148yds & 3tds from Montana in SB XXIV?
Since you guys are obviously Pats fans, I’m going to quote the great Gisele,
‘He’s the quarterback; he can’t throw the f*cking ball and catch it, too.’
Joe didn’t cheat, Jerry did.
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So holding it against Brady for being the best in his playing field is fair? The game has evolved to favor the passers without question but it isn’t just stats it’s the fact that he has been a consistent winner for 18 years! 8 Super Bowls, AFC Championship games, playoffs every year. I’m just not sure how anyone can doubt him over taking Montana unless your agenda is to just dispute that Montana was better regardless of everything I’ve thrown at you about this. Either way we can go back and forth till be are both blue in the face and neither of us will change our minds. Montana was a legend without question, taking the fan base out of it I would bet that impartial NFL fans given all the points and counter points would agree that Brady has the top spot as the best. I respect your argument, you definitely carry yourself well in the debate I just know neither of us will budge and that’s OK because that is what makes sports talk
I haven’t held it against him!
At all. Just pointing out that all the stats will favor modern players without exception. Even average guys in the NFL today will have better career stats than most guys in the Hall of Fame.
There’s a bunch of suspect names up there ahead of ole Joe but if I had to pick one...
Carson Palmer?
Really?
REALLY?
By the way, it is now YOU who is not addressing my counter points.
Pats? Buncha cheaters?
Brady? suspended?
Should this be factored in? Or no? I mean, I expect the typical homer ‘it’s all jealousy and made up’ explanation - I just always like seeing it in print.
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@erikthredd said:
That "cheating" goes both ways just ask Jerry Rice about all those years he was cheating when he used Stickum then admitted it publicly after the fact.
I'm sure Stickum played no part when Jerry caught 11 passes for 215yds & a td which got him named SB MVP in 1988.
How about his 7 receptions, 148yds & 3tds from Montana in SB XXIV?
Since you guys are obviously Pats fans, I’m going to quote the great Gisele,
‘He’s the quarterback; he can’t throw the f*cking ball and catch it, too.’
Joe didn’t cheat, Jerry did.
That was a bad pass by Brady, I’m one of the few Pats fans that does not blame Welker for not catching that.
@erikthredd said:
That "cheating" goes both ways just ask Jerry Rice about all those years he was cheating when he used Stickum then admitted it publicly after the fact.
I'm sure Stickum played no part when Jerry caught 11 passes for 215yds & a td which got him named SB MVP in 1988.
How about his 7 receptions, 148yds & 3tds from Montana in SB XXIV?
Since you guys are obviously Pats fans, I’m going to quote the great Gisele,
‘He’s the quarterback; he can’t throw the f*cking ball and catch it, too.’
Joe didn’t cheat, Jerry did.
And how exactly did Tom cheat here again? Was he out there holding a camera? Bringing up "cheating" because you couldn't make a better argument to why Brady shouldn't be considered GOAT is just a lame last ditch effort.
You want to say Brady cheated then fine, so did Joe's 49ers,see above.
So did Peyton Manning when he had HGH mailed to his house then just months later he throws 55 TDs in a season. This just a year after there were reports he might not be able to play again because of his neck problem.
How about when John Elway's Broncos in the late 90's got caught cheating the salary cap twice when his team won back to back SBs.
See how easy this game is? Where you rank these QBs is your opinion but to throw around "he cheated" to win the argument is just sad when that can be said for almost all of these teams with a GOAT QB candidate.
@erikthredd said:
That "cheating" goes both ways just ask Jerry Rice about all those years he was cheating when he used Stickum then admitted it publicly after the fact.
I'm sure Stickum played no part when Jerry caught 11 passes for 215yds & a td which got him named SB MVP in 1988.
How about his 7 receptions, 148yds & 3tds from Montana in SB XXIV?
Since you guys are obviously Pats fans, I’m going to quote the great Gisele,
‘He’s the quarterback; he can’t throw the f*cking ball and catch it, too.’
Joe didn’t cheat, Jerry did.
And how exactly did Tom cheat here again? Was he out there holding a camera? Bringing up "cheating" because you couldn't make a better argument to why Brady shouldn't be considered GOAT is just a lame last ditch effort.
You want to say Brady cheated then fine, so did Joe's 49ers,see above.
So did Peyton Manning when he had HGH mailed to his house then just months later he throws 55 TDs in a season. This just a year after there were reports he might not be able to play again because of his neck problem.
How about when John Elway's Broncos in the late 90's got caught cheating the salary cap twice when his team won back to back SBs.
See how easy this game is? Where you rank these QBs is your opinion but to throw around "he cheated" to win the argument is just sad when that can be said for almost all of these teams with a GOAT QB candidate.
It’s not worth arguing the cheating thing, it’s all Pats haters got when it comes down to it and agreed it’s always lame and one sided
Leave out the Carolina and Rams Super Bowl stuff; no problem. More organizational than Tom. Agreed. (seriously)
As for Brady cheated, I’m not throwing around an allegation or post career confession. Maybe I’m mistaken but wasn’t he suspended for 4 games two years ago to start the season?
What was that for? Tax evasion? I think it was cheating. Am I mistaken?
As for Peyton and HGH, yes, I do consider him a cheater. And the biggest whiner in NFL history.
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Leave out the Carolina and Rams Super Bowl stuff; no problem. More organizational than Tom. Agreed. (seriously)
As for Brady cheated, I’m not throwing around an allegation or post career confession. Maybe I’m mistaken but wasn’t he suspended for 4 games two years ago to start the season?
What was that for? Tax evasion? I think it was cheating. Am I mistaken?
As for Peyton and HGH, yes, I do consider him a cheater. And the biggest whiner in NFL history.
Cmon man,did you really pay any attention with Deflategate? Brady was suspended for four games for not handing over a cell phone,that was his "crime". The same cell phone that Ted Wells had in his hands on five different occasions.
Brady didn't deflate any footballs and the NFL never proved that he did. That entire situation in court had zero to do with air pressure and everything to do with the NFL commissioner's power to suspend or fine players on his authority.
Honestly i just gotta say listening to a Yankees fan trying to play the moral high ground in a "cheating" argument is just hilarious. Arod,Giambi,Clemens,Pettite,Sheffield......
Leave out the Carolina and Rams Super Bowl stuff; no problem. More organizational than Tom. Agreed. (seriously)
As for Brady cheated, I’m not throwing around an allegation or post career confession. Maybe I’m mistaken but wasn’t he suspended for 4 games two years ago to start the season?
What was that for? Tax evasion? I think it was cheating. Am I mistaken?
As for Peyton and HGH, yes, I do consider him a cheater. And the biggest whiner in NFL history.
Cmon man,did you really pay any attention with Deflategate? Brady was suspended for four games for not handing over a cell phone,that was his "crime". The same cell phone that Ted Wells had in his hands on five different occasions.
Brady didn't deflate any footballs and the NFL never proved that he did. That entire situation in court had zero to do with air pressure and everything to do with the NFL commissioner's power to suspend or fine players on his authority.
Honestly i just gotta say listening to a Yankees fan trying to play the moral high ground in a "cheating" argument is just hilarious. Arod,Giambi,Clemens,Pettite,Sheffield......
For the record? Cheater, cheater, cheater, cheater (sadly) and cheater.
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We want to talk about cheating in baseball we need a newer longer thread.
Obviously, Clemens never took anything in Boston, huh?
If he took some while in Boston they obviously weren't that good. The good stuff wasn't available until he hit the Bronx.
All cheating joking aside, my only point was its not so cut & dry in this GOAT QB debate when pretty much everyone involved is linked to some questionable activity thru their actions or their team's.
You want to tell me that its Montana or Peyton or whoever,fine,i can respect that but to throw out the cheat card is honestly just lame here when Brady was never actually caught cheating at all.
my top 5 would be in order
1.Brady
2.Montana
3.Mannimg
4.Elway
5.Brees
Leave out the Carolina and Rams Super Bowl stuff; no problem. More organizational than Tom. Agreed. (seriously)
As for Brady cheated, I’m not throwing around an allegation or post career confession. Maybe I’m mistaken but wasn’t he suspended for 4 games two years ago to start the season?
What was that for? Tax evasion? I think it was cheating. Am I mistaken?
As for Peyton and HGH, yes, I do consider him a cheater. And the biggest whiner in NFL history.
Cmon man,did you really pay any attention with Deflategate? Brady was suspended for four games for not handing over a cell phone,that was his "crime". The same cell phone that Ted Wells had in his hands on five different occasions.
Brady didn't deflate any footballs and the NFL never proved that he did. That entire situation in court had zero to do with air pressure and everything to do with the NFL commissioner's power to suspend or fine players on his authority.
Honestly i just gotta say listening to a Yankees fan trying to play the moral high ground in a "cheating" argument is just hilarious. Arod,Giambi,Clemens,Pettite,Sheffield......
For the record? Cheater, cheater, cheater, cheater (sadly) and cheater.
Evidence and proof? I didn’t need the courts, the NFL or anything else. All I needed to see was the press conference he held about it: he looked guilty as sin and chose his words with as much care as a nurse shows a newborn. I agree that everything after that was dog and pony. But boy did he look like a liar that day...
...squirming like a fish on a hook.
Very un Brady.
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Of course he looked like a squirming fish on a hook in front of all that media who were trying to accuse him of doing something he didn't do. And to date the NFL still hasn't proved that he ever played a part in deflating footballs.
School science departments all over the country proved that the air loss was from the cold not from someone deflating them. Its funny cause the NFL ran tests during the 2016 season to see how much air pressure lowers during winter-like circumstances on the field yet after getting all of the data,they decided not to make it public....I wonder why.
The deflate gate was a witch hunt from the start. It’s a joke actually, talk about the most minor petty thing to come up with but the revenge tour was completed so all good in the end regardless
I think there is some merit to the fact that the passing game was so different up until the early/mid 2000's It was very uncommon for a quarterback to play into his mid to late 30's at a high level because of the beating they took every game/season. I like Brady, but the guy seldom gets hit, and when he does, they are not the devastating hits we saw 20-50 years ago. Had Brady began playing in the 1970's there is no chance he would be performing as he is today at 41.
Because these guys are playing at such a high level for so much longer, they can pile up stats and 4th quarter comebacks etc. it is a kind of perfect storm. When a player can finally mentally understand the game when they get into their 30's, in modern times, their bodies are still able to play the game. 30 years ago, guys were so physically beat up that they couldnt perform
Craig I do agree but the bottom line is the amount of Playoff chances Brady has led his team too. The defenses are far more athletic and bigger/Faster so that in itself makes it tougher in a different way.
After his back injury in 1986 and the Leonard Marshall hit in the 1990 NFC championship game, Montana was effectively done as an elite quarterback at age 34. there is little chance Montana would have taken a hit like that today. He basically missed two years due to it and was never the same. Brady, Manning, Brees etc would not have lasted at an elite level playing back then. no one else did, so it is doubtful they would have either. had Montana been able to stay in one piece until 40, he would have had many more chances to lead his team to the playoffs/super bowl as Brady has now.
I know it is not a perfect comparison, but playoff records through age 34
Montana 14-5
Brady 16-6
As a basketball analogy, Steph Curry is a basketball prodigy today. Thirty years ago, there’s minimal chance he’d have been anything other than a three point specialist off the bench. The game was literally changed from a big man game to what is today - gradually - starting with the addition of the three point line, through the elimination of physical defense of guards and the allowing of zone defense in the paint, the NBA changed the rules to suit its most marketable players and its profitability - just like the NFL did - at the expense of the quality of the sport in some people’s eyes and for the betterment of the sport in the eyes of other people. But Steph Curry would have been knocked around, exploited defensively (posted up) and manhandled with bumps and hand checks by much stronger guys, nullifying much of what makes him great today.
It is what it is but it should be acknowledged. Comparing then to now, you can no longer hit WR and Quarterbacks. As a result, passing plays became a significantly more viable and less risky means of moving the football and scoring went up, records were broken (repeatedly), fantasy scoring was up and so was NFL revenue.
So who cares that we can’t quite tell what a catch, a tackle, a fumble or a football move is? I mean, I personally love waiting 45 seconds to confirm that it was, in fact, a touchdown, don’t you? Celebrate twice! Or throw stuff!
It’s great TV, baby!
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Curry's size would not have hurt him had he played in the NBA 30 years ago. Nate "Tiny" Archibald was 6'-1" 150lbs compared to Step Curry's 6'-3" 190lbs and he had a great NBA career during the 70's to mid 80's. Six All Star games,AS MVP, three All-NBA 1st teams,led the NBA in scoring & assists one year.
Curry is arguably the best shooter in NBA history and his game is much more than just shooting.
Former Pistons PG Isiah Thomas,who was 6-1 180lbs during his playing days, was another guy smaller than Curry that had another stellar season and his size never hurt him.
Then you had John Stockton 6-1 175lbs.
Matt Cassell took over and ‘no playoffs’ is a completely ridiculous way to say that. Cassell (a chump) took the Pats to an 11-5 record and missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker technicality.
THIS - to me - is the strength of the argument against Tom Brady. When he has been hurt or suspended, Bellichek has taken Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garroppolo and Matt Cassell (henceforth known as Curly, Larry and Moe) and produced a 13-6 record. That does not mean that Tom Brady is a product of the system - the guy is neck and neck with Joe Montana. No doubt. But those are 3 bad QBs. Maybe Jimmy will prove me wrong though I doubt it...
Weird how you see this argument used against Tom Brady but never against Terry Bradshaw where it also applies.
@erikthredd said:
Former Pistons PG Isiah Thomas,who was 6-1 180lbs during his playing days, was another guy smaller than Curry that had another stellar season and his size never hurt him.
Then you had John Stockton 6-1 175lbs.
Comments
Funny how you can make excuses for Fouts having a bad defense but you don't take into account Namath's injuries.
Neither of these guys are top 5 but if Namath was healthy it would have been nice to see what he could have done. Look up some of Namath's yardage totals, he did manage to get to and win a SB.
GOAT discussions are pointless.
It’s pointless because there should be no other QB in the discussion other than Brady
This guy.
Here’s something I don’t think gets enough consideration: Joe Montana had a Hall of Fame quarterback pushing him out the door and his time in San Francisco ended on a hit that (almost) no player would deliver today.
I’m not one for guaranteeing what would happen in a ‘what if’ scenario but it’s fair to say that Joe Montana proved he still had something in the tank and performed pretty well in KC; I think he could have lead those Steve Young era teams to very similar - if not better - results. Mind you, I’m not trying to downplay how good Steve Young was, either - he was awesome. But that entire team was special and I think Joe could have had more rings to add to his already bountiful collection.
This coming from a Giant fan who was fighting against these guys tooth and nail. The undefeated MNF showdown was a particularly rough one for me 😉
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Key point was you saying those 49’er teams were “Special” you can’t say that about many Patriot teams that Brady has led. Bottom line Montana had HOF’ers all around him especially Jerry Rice. Steve Young took over and immediately brought them to the Super Bowl, the Pats took away Bledsoe and Brady won and won again, Cassel stepped in and no playoffs.
I rate Brady right up there with Montana and a few others, but let's get off this idea that he did it with no help. His teams had to be pretty good on defense, and he (like all QB's) needed some protection from his offensive line.
He also had a couple of HOF guys to throw the ball to in Gronk and Moss. He couldn't win with Moss (nobody could).
Brady stepped in and won three SB's, those early teams must have been good. Since then they have been to the playoffs 12 times and won it all twice?
To say there is no room for discussion (I would say the entire discussion is impossible to prove) is ridiculous.
Huh? The 2001-2007 Patriots had one of the best collection of football players on defense I have ever seen; not just in terms of talent but also football IQ. And I don’t think there was even one season where Tom Brady had even an average offensive line. Let’s not change the narrative at the end like it’s been Brady all by himself in his career. That’s just ridiculous. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Bottom line Montana had HOF’ers all around him especially Jerry Rice.
Brady has and has had a very competent collection of guys to throw to in every season. HOFer Randy Moss comes to mind, as Wes Welker, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Rob Gronkowski, Shane Vereen, Aaron Hernandez to name a few. All of them very good receivers. Even now, Edelman, Gordon and Gronk? I’d give you the Giants our three guys straight up. Have fun with Odell ‘Cancer’ Beckham, by the way. Or as I call him, T.O. 2.0...
Steve Young took over and immediately brought them to the Super Bowl,
Exactly.
the Pats took away Bledsoe and Brady won and won again, Cassel stepped in and no playoffs.
Drew Bledsoe ever do anything before or after?
Matt Cassell took over and ‘no playoffs’ is a completely ridiculous way to say that. Cassell (a chump) took the Pats to an 11-5 record and missed the playoffs on a tiebreaker technicality.
THIS - to me - is the strength of the argument against Tom Brady. When he has been hurt or suspended, Bellichek has taken Jacoby Brissett, Jimmy Garroppolo and Matt Cassell (henceforth known as Curly, Larry and Moe) and produced a 13-6 record. That does not mean that Tom Brady is a product of the system - the guy is neck and neck with Joe Montana. No doubt. But those are 3 bad QBs. Maybe Jimmy will prove me wrong though I doubt it...
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By the way, the year Tom Brady came back after Cassell’s 11-5 season, the Patriots finished 10-6.
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Im not saying Brady had terrible teams by any stretch but if your going to argue that he had just as much talent around him as Joe Montana then I guess I cant continue to debate with you. Regardless of your counter points about Cassell and Bledsoe Im stating FACTS. And talking like Brissett and Garroppolo played significantly enough to even bring them up is utterly ridiculous. Oh and check out the number of games Montana had Rice for vs how many games Brady had Moss for, its a little bit of a huge gap.
I’m not saying they had the same talent - Montana played in an era when you could keep your own talent more easily and stack your team pretty well (90s Cowboys and 49ers as a great example).
However, this is what happens when you point out to a Patriot fan that three schmucks basically had the same win percentage as Tom Brady while he was gone . Tom Brady has missed 20 games and those are the three guys who started in his place. They compiled a 14-6 record. In the one complete season that he missed, the Patriots went 11-5 (basically Tom Brady’s average season) without him. Yes, they did miss the playoffs in a three way tie scenario but let’s no pretend that the Patriots fell apart without him.
Those are the FACTS - not cherry picked to flatter Tommy Boy.
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One will always debate the influence of those around the GOAT candidates. What would Barry's numbers be like if he had a front line. Would Brady have had the same stellar career had he not been coached by Belichick. Would Jack Morris have had a lower ERA if he had not allegedly played to the score?
Add in the drugs prevalent in professional sports and soft ball chicanery as well as multi decades between careers and you will never come to a satisfactory conclusion.
Having said that, Montana was the best QB in NFL history. I really didn't like him at the time and favored Elway and Montana. Last two minutes in a game, no one surpassed Montana, with Brady closely at his heels.
Im not Cherry picking anything, here is another stat for you, I think Brady has staged 42 4th quarter comebacks. Thats THREE SEASONS of games where he led his team to wins over 18 years of playing in the NFL. That is a stat that should count for something as far as any GOAT conversation goes right? I mean his 5th Super Bowl win was the greatest example bar none. We can go over any other stat and Brady beats Montana in every category except Super Bowl win percentage so I will concede that but 8 Super Bowls to 4 is just insane, again over 18 years of football, the guy is in his 40's and still playing at a Super Bowl level. I dont expect every fan outside of NE to agree with me but before Brady became so good I had enough NFL sense to say Montana was the best and I dont like the 49'ers but enough evidence has surfaced as far as Im concerned now to say Brady has taken over the best ever conversation and wrapped it up.
@perkdog
I’ m calling out this ridiculous statement. But recognize that I’m not saying ‘Tom Brady stinks and is unworthy of GOAT consideration.’
I’m saying it is a discussion of, at the very least, two quarterbacks.
And since you brought it up, I did look it up:
Montana had Rice for 6 seasons.*
Brady has had Gronkowski for the last 8. Brady had Moss for three plus seasons.
*Not sure about you but I thought it was more.
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Brady still has a way to go to catch up with the GOAT.
I thought I already told you that your nonsense is typical for a jealous Pats hater? If you want to join the adults put something on the table at least
Im honestly shocked it was only for 6 seasons. But nothing more to say about the other things that I Posted in my last counter points to you?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm
That comebacks rankings list says Brady has 35 comebacks but when you click on "view comebacks" for Brady it shows 43 comebacks & 54 game-winning drives
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=BradTo00
The ranking also got Manning's numbers wrong too,he has 45 comebacks & 56 game winning drives
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=BradTo00
Eric
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Perhaps if Brady would have done a better job in the first three quarters of a game, no comeback would have been necessary.
Just noticed that CU did away with the disagree buttons as well as a few others on our profile pages.
Eric
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Going over stats and declaring Brady the winner is going to be relatively easy to do without context. I could break it down to minutia but I'll do it this way:
From the recorded beginnings of the NFL until 2007, the NFL had one season where a QB threw for 5,000 yards and since then it has happened 8 times.
Digest that for a second.
And let's also consider this, in the era of every NFL game coming down to the last two minutes, is it no wonder that nearly all the guys who lead the league's history in comebacks are playing right now?
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https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career_playoffs.htm > @LarkinCollector said:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career_playoffs.htm your forgetful about playoffs my friend
And I'm not saying this to get your GOAT (pun intended), but the scales have to tip in Joe's favor some for his perfect record (and perfect performances) in the Super Bowl.
I'm guessing you don't want to talk about the alleged 'cheating in the Super Bowl' allegations levied from Eric Mangini, Carolina and the Rams (neither of which was ever proven though Roger Goodell burned what he saw and took away draft picks and levied massive fines) and the dramatically different playoff records post and pre that scandal? Or the 4 game suspension Tom Brady earned for cheating? We can leave those out if you want since they probably have more to do with character than on field performance (though losses to the Rams and Panthers may have changed the storyline a bit, methinks).
Both were excellent Saturday Night Live hosts as well. Joe going upstairs to master bait and Tom Brady's Sexual Harrassment video were both fantastic! (Maybe edge Brady - that one is a classic!)
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So holding it against Brady for being the best in his playing field is fair? The game has evolved to favor the passers without question but it isn’t just stats it’s the fact that he has been a consistent winner for 18 years! 8 Super Bowls, AFC Championship games, playoffs every year. I’m just not sure how anyone can doubt him over taking Montana unless your agenda is to just dispute that Montana was better regardless of everything I’ve thrown at you about this. Either way we can go back and forth till be are both blue in the face and neither of us will change our minds. Montana was a legend without question, taking the fan base out of it I would bet that impartial NFL fans given all the points and counter points would agree that Brady has the top spot as the best. I respect your argument, you definitely carry yourself well in the debate I just know neither of us will budge and that’s OK because that is what makes sports talk
Yea I’m noticing that too, I wonder why? Is it not ok to disagree with someone nowadays? lol
That "cheating" goes both ways just ask Jerry Rice about all those years he was cheating when he used Stickum then admitted it publicly after the fact.
I'm sure Stickum played no part when Jerry caught 11 passes for 215yds & a td which got him named SB MVP in 1988.
How about his 7 receptions, 148yds & 3tds from Montana in SB XXIV?
Eric
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If I disagree with someone I'll just say it,I never felt the need to click on the disagree button.
Eric
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I’m right there with you Erik
Since you guys are obviously Pats fans, I’m going to quote the great Gisele,
‘He’s the quarterback; he can’t throw the f*cking ball and catch it, too.’
Joe didn’t cheat, Jerry did.
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@perkdog
I haven’t held it against him!
At all. Just pointing out that all the stats will favor modern players without exception. Even average guys in the NFL today will have better career stats than most guys in the Hall of Fame.
There’s a bunch of suspect names up there ahead of ole Joe but if I had to pick one...
Carson Palmer?
Really?
REALLY?
By the way, it is now YOU who is not addressing my counter points.
Pats? Buncha cheaters?
Brady? suspended?
Should this be factored in? Or no? I mean, I expect the typical homer ‘it’s all jealousy and made up’ explanation - I just always like seeing it in print.
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That was a bad pass by Brady, I’m one of the few Pats fans that does not blame Welker for not catching that.
And how exactly did Tom cheat here again? Was he out there holding a camera? Bringing up "cheating" because you couldn't make a better argument to why Brady shouldn't be considered GOAT is just a lame last ditch effort.
You want to say Brady cheated then fine, so did Joe's 49ers,see above.
So did Peyton Manning when he had HGH mailed to his house then just months later he throws 55 TDs in a season. This just a year after there were reports he might not be able to play again because of his neck problem.
How about when John Elway's Broncos in the late 90's got caught cheating the salary cap twice when his team won back to back SBs.
See how easy this game is? Where you rank these QBs is your opinion but to throw around "he cheated" to win the argument is just sad when that can be said for almost all of these teams with a GOAT QB candidate.
Eric
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CU also banned about a half dozen forum members last evening. Best to temper things here
It’s not worth arguing the cheating thing, it’s all Pats haters got when it comes down to it and agreed it’s always lame and one sided
I don’t think anyone is being mean, right?
@erikthredd
Leave out the Carolina and Rams Super Bowl stuff; no problem. More organizational than Tom. Agreed. (seriously)
As for Brady cheated, I’m not throwing around an allegation or post career confession. Maybe I’m mistaken but wasn’t he suspended for 4 games two years ago to start the season?
What was that for? Tax evasion? I think it was cheating. Am I mistaken?
As for Peyton and HGH, yes, I do consider him a cheater. And the biggest whiner in NFL history.
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Cmon man,did you really pay any attention with Deflategate? Brady was suspended for four games for not handing over a cell phone,that was his "crime". The same cell phone that Ted Wells had in his hands on five different occasions.
Brady didn't deflate any footballs and the NFL never proved that he did. That entire situation in court had zero to do with air pressure and everything to do with the NFL commissioner's power to suspend or fine players on his authority.
Honestly i just gotta say listening to a Yankees fan trying to play the moral high ground in a "cheating" argument is just hilarious. Arod,Giambi,Clemens,Pettite,Sheffield......
Eric
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We’re comparing Joe Montana to Tom Brady.
We want to talk about cheating in baseball we need a newer longer thread.
Obviously, Clemens never took anything in Boston, huh?
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For the record? Cheater, cheater, cheater, cheater (sadly) and cheater.
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If he took some while in Boston they obviously weren't that good. The good stuff wasn't available until he hit the Bronx.
All cheating joking aside, my only point was its not so cut & dry in this GOAT QB debate when pretty much everyone involved is linked to some questionable activity thru their actions or their team's.
You want to tell me that its Montana or Peyton or whoever,fine,i can respect that but to throw out the cheat card is honestly just lame here when Brady was never actually caught cheating at all.
my top 5 would be in order
1.Brady
2.Montana
3.Mannimg
4.Elway
5.Brees
Eric
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Evidence and proof? I didn’t need the courts, the NFL or anything else. All I needed to see was the press conference he held about it: he looked guilty as sin and chose his words with as much care as a nurse shows a newborn. I agree that everything after that was dog and pony. But boy did he look like a liar that day...
...squirming like a fish on a hook.
Very un Brady.
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Of course he looked like a squirming fish on a hook in front of all that media who were trying to accuse him of doing something he didn't do. And to date the NFL still hasn't proved that he ever played a part in deflating footballs.
School science departments all over the country proved that the air loss was from the cold not from someone deflating them. Its funny cause the NFL ran tests during the 2016 season to see how much air pressure lowers during winter-like circumstances on the field yet after getting all of the data,they decided not to make it public....I wonder why.
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The deflate gate was a witch hunt from the start. It’s a joke actually, talk about the most minor petty thing to come up with but the revenge tour was completed so all good in the end regardless
I think there is some merit to the fact that the passing game was so different up until the early/mid 2000's It was very uncommon for a quarterback to play into his mid to late 30's at a high level because of the beating they took every game/season. I like Brady, but the guy seldom gets hit, and when he does, they are not the devastating hits we saw 20-50 years ago. Had Brady began playing in the 1970's there is no chance he would be performing as he is today at 41.
Because these guys are playing at such a high level for so much longer, they can pile up stats and 4th quarter comebacks etc. it is a kind of perfect storm. When a player can finally mentally understand the game when they get into their 30's, in modern times, their bodies are still able to play the game. 30 years ago, guys were so physically beat up that they couldnt perform
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Craig I do agree but the bottom line is the amount of Playoff chances Brady has led his team too. The defenses are far more athletic and bigger/Faster so that in itself makes it tougher in a different way.
After his back injury in 1986 and the Leonard Marshall hit in the 1990 NFC championship game, Montana was effectively done as an elite quarterback at age 34. there is little chance Montana would have taken a hit like that today. He basically missed two years due to it and was never the same. Brady, Manning, Brees etc would not have lasted at an elite level playing back then. no one else did, so it is doubtful they would have either. had Montana been able to stay in one piece until 40, he would have had many more chances to lead his team to the playoffs/super bowl as Brady has now.
I know it is not a perfect comparison, but playoff records through age 34
Montana 14-5
Brady 16-6
Pretty close.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As a basketball analogy, Steph Curry is a basketball prodigy today. Thirty years ago, there’s minimal chance he’d have been anything other than a three point specialist off the bench. The game was literally changed from a big man game to what is today - gradually - starting with the addition of the three point line, through the elimination of physical defense of guards and the allowing of zone defense in the paint, the NBA changed the rules to suit its most marketable players and its profitability - just like the NFL did - at the expense of the quality of the sport in some people’s eyes and for the betterment of the sport in the eyes of other people. But Steph Curry would have been knocked around, exploited defensively (posted up) and manhandled with bumps and hand checks by much stronger guys, nullifying much of what makes him great today.
It is what it is but it should be acknowledged. Comparing then to now, you can no longer hit WR and Quarterbacks. As a result, passing plays became a significantly more viable and less risky means of moving the football and scoring went up, records were broken (repeatedly), fantasy scoring was up and so was NFL revenue.
So who cares that we can’t quite tell what a catch, a tackle, a fumble or a football move is? I mean, I personally love waiting 45 seconds to confirm that it was, in fact, a touchdown, don’t you? Celebrate twice! Or throw stuff!
It’s great TV, baby!
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Curry's size would not have hurt him had he played in the NBA 30 years ago. Nate "Tiny" Archibald was 6'-1" 150lbs compared to Step Curry's 6'-3" 190lbs and he had a great NBA career during the 70's to mid 80's. Six All Star games,AS MVP, three All-NBA 1st teams,led the NBA in scoring & assists one year.
Curry is arguably the best shooter in NBA history and his game is much more than just shooting.
Eric
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I take Brady any era any time and I’m not losing, same can be said about Montana and a host of other great WB’s
Former Pistons PG Isiah Thomas,who was 6-1 180lbs during his playing days, was another guy smaller than Curry that had another stellar season and his size never hurt him.
Then you had John Stockton 6-1 175lbs.
Eric
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Weird how you see this argument used against Tom Brady but never against Terry Bradshaw where it also applies.
Zeke developed that awesome high arc mid career.