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Why is ICG in the second tier with ANACS?
BUFFNIXX
Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know that NGC and PCGS are in the top tier and are considered the cream-de-lar creme of the grading services.
In the so-called second tier is ICG and ANACS
I could never figure out how ICG got there so quickly. All I can remember is they came on the seen and in no time or so it seems to me they were up there in tier two with anacs who had been around forever. How did they do it? Smoke n mirrors or what.
Any information would be appreciated.
Of course below ICG and anacs is everyone else in tier three.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
2
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My guess is a lot of staff (experienced graders) went from one of the services to the other, and a relocation change to boot with some of the same folks a few years ago. Just a wild guess
I authenticate/grade at ICG. Before that, I helped start NCS after being a grader/authenticator at NGC. I revealed that here a year ago. when "came out" and began posting as myself. I don't remember what TPGS I was working at when ICG was founded.
ANACS and ICG will always be second tier services even if they graded for free! This is mostly due to the large dealer networks started in 1986 when PCGS was founded. There are many good reasons to use/try each of the TPGS but the provable fact is that much of the time a coin in a PCGS slab with a CAC sticker is the "gold ring" that brings the most money.
As for the fast rise of ICG: IMO again, It was due to the advertising, grading team, and a little test of the TPGS done by Coin World when ICG did very well. Fast turnaround and cheap prices did not hurt them either. Then, before my time, the ICG and ANACS graders had a shake-up which probably hurt both services. I know that ICG won a large lawsuit against ANACS. I think I can reveal that ICG is having its best year ever so it is still growing.
I may be wrong, but when ICG & ANACS traded locations, as far as I was concerned: ICG became the new ANACS & vica versa. The original ICG, in my opinion, had a very conservative, that was almost equal to PCGS, grading mindset for classic coins.
Who is considered better at grading ancients ? ICG or NGC?
Not sure why PCGS is not in the ancients coin grading market.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
ICG was respected for grades on classic coins but, in an effort to get into the modern bonanza, they chose to be super loose with modern 70 grades. Now that the moderns market has cooled off, I’m not sure if they still grade like this.
I don’t have manny ICG coins but I’m a fan of the ICG holder which is smaller and fits in one’s hand well.
ICG no longer does ancients. I believe JP did them for ICG and I would trust the opinion of David and Barry at NGC over that of JP. I've only seen about a dozen ICG ancients in a slab. They all looked fine in every respect to me but I hated that old ugly label they used.
Ancients is a very demanding field. While I was at the ATS they would not do any "new" field w/o getting a good handle on it. That's why they were very slow to do paper money, tokens and medals, ALL major varieties, and ancients. PCGS better get into the field and make sure they do it "right" if they do.
ICG and ANACS makes sense for lowered priced coins with grading fees ~$10-12/coin.
You are correct IMO.
When ICG was preparing to open, they made a big deal out of the fact that they would be independent and all customers would be treated the same. There were protections outlined in their ads that the graders would not know who owned the coins. Some collectors had long suspected that not all customers were not treated equally. The big guys got breaks while the small guys might be subject to stricter standards. ICG also had some well-known numismatists on their staff.
When ICG coins started coming on the market, my perception was that they were just as strict as the two leaders. The trouble was some of the big market makers didn’t like the new guy on the block and started talking them down. Some of the med sized dealers tried to market ICG coins, but I heard some negative comments from representatives of the large firms that were aimed at suppressing that effort.
It was around this negative period that I stated to see changes. ICG wasn’t quite as strict, and they made some embarrassing errors. I remember at a show that a dealer bought an ICG graded an attributed a very worn Bust Half Dollar that IGC attributed rare Overton variety. It turned out to be a very common variety in low grade. Making mistakes like that hurts your image.
In the end pressure from the market makers plus a minor slip in grading standards some months after the company opened consigned ICG to second tier status. It demonstrated how hard it is for a third company to crack into the “big two.”
If a second-tier company grades a coin correctly or conservatively, it gets cracked and sent to the “big two” because the same coin will bring a higher price in the other holder. If the grade is a little off, the neigh Sayers will crow, “SEE! SEE! I told you so!”
That’s why we only have two major grading companies and one approval service.
Another thing that hurt ICG was all of the PR70 and MS70 modern stuff they graded that ended up in Teletrade. There was page after page of those in their old printed catalogs. I think they lost a lot of their legitimacy there and then. Otherwise I think they're a pretty decent company, as is ANACS.
,, because of their mass grading of moderns for the television hawkers.
Acronyms are overrated.
I have had many of my lower grade early coppers graded and authenticated by ICG; their service is head and shoulders above the others in my opinion- where else can you actually speak to a grader during a submission if there are questions? The pricing is better and the turnaround times as well, and I have had no issues with grades. In my latest collection direction I have utilized their counterfeit holders, which are the only ones in the industry- I am a fan.
I know this isn't the forum to discuss TPG mistakes, but we could talk at length about that topic off-line. The silver lining is the TPG's reputation and guarantee to remedy them when they happen.
Insider is far too old to get a job anywhere.
The twenty-somethings are already being trained as I write this. I looks like the ANA's seminar is one of the fast tracks to being notices too. It doesn't hurt if your dad is in the business either. AFAIK, there is a "family" preference for all positions. That's a good thing.
@BillJones is correct. The PCGS and NGC dealers talked down any competition.
Thankfully, we don't wish to bring up TPGS mistakes! They all make them and some are VERY COSTLY!
Also, with what's mentioned above, as a dealer it cost me just as much to send a coin to anacs or icg than it does NGC or fairly close enough to PCGS. Why spend the money for their grading , when the coins bring much less on market anyhow.
I wonder what that Franklin that sold for $110k at auction the other night would have brought in an ICG holder.
Depends on how much of the price was for the color and the grade. If it was all for the color, then perhaps the same or near the same? If a significant portion was for the grade, then perhaps very different.
A local dealer was able to get a better deal than ICG offers several times at Anacs, I mean who else does gold coins for under $10 a pop? But the grading is no better than how accurate they are every day, and whether their grading is backed by a real guarantee. But I don't trust NGC or PCGS either for truly objectively backing their grading with a money guarantee. When I had a gold coin near $3000 bid that was in a PCGS holder judged as "tooled" by cac/JA, the best that PCGS would offer on the coin in their holder was $1000 less than bid. NCG also will bs on why an over-graded coin is according to them ok for grade, they aren't going to admit they made a clear mistake usually. ICG has the weakest guarantee because I have seen too many lightly cleaned coins, etc., with nice grades on the holder, I can see netting some coins down, but many are given a pass that shouldn't be straight graded. And though Skip/Insider is accurate on his grading, he only does the preliminary coin analysis, which is not an easy job. He is not the finalizer, and a concern would be that the business manager lets some coins get the straight grades or higher than warranted by the ANA standards.
Please explain how $10/coin and 5-day turnaround is more expensive than the two major TPGS's you use.
We'll never know as CAC does not sticker ICG coins. It may have only graded 66+ due to the marks. I suspect the price is for a Registry competition.
well I just got a complete education ICG...thank you all
Don't get too caught up on plastic and stickers. I happily cherry pick ICG, ANACS, and even yes, SEGS/PCI/other slabs. There are plenty of dogs in those holders, but the same could be said for PCGS and NGC. Overall, I think historically NGC and PCGS have been tighter, but I haven't paid attention to the latest grading trends at ICG and ANACS. I always focus on the coin.
Don't forget DGS, some sweet coins in those holders!
I don't see very many of them anymore. I wonder what percentage of them have already been cracked/crossed.
I wouldnt put ICG at the same level as ANACS. To me the tiers go something like this:
PCGS: Tier 1
NGC: Tier: 1.2
ANACS: Tier: 2
ICG: Tier: 4
SEGS: Tier: 4
ACUGRADE: Tier: 10... better off raw.
Having said that, I'm happy to buy anything PQ in any holder. Well, except ACCUGRADE which I wont buy out of principal. That wouldn't stop me from buying the coin if the dealer cracked i out, though.
David
What does ANACS do better than ICG?
I've seen a number of ANACS "done for TV" type of modern deals which is why I associate them together.
I submitted a low AU S-VDB to PCGS in 2011. It had some troubling toning around the date. PCGS couldn't commit and chose to refund fees, returning it as a "no decision / refund".
So I sent it to NGC. After a time I heard "authenticity unverifiable". I got a credit (I still haven't used...anyone want it?).
Several years later I brought up the issue on Cointalk, and ran into @Insider2 who encouraged me to ship it to a specialist at ICG. His records on S-VDB cents were extensive. He determined it was authentic but very late die state and shared the coin and his research with friends at nearby NGC, who agreed.
Today it resides in a straight graded AU-53 ICG holder. Holdered free of charge.
It fills the last hole in my Dansco set, but is the only one not raw for obvious reasons: I got spooked. (Note: picture shot before ICG).
I don't blame PCGS or NGC for their unwillingness to "guarantee" what they couldn't be sure of. But I do give ICG a lot of credit for their efforts and willingness to stick their neck out over what their researchers found and believed.
It is a far cry from the struggles I've had getting some TPG's to simply attribute varieties correctly.
Lance.
_What does ANACS do better than ICG?
I put what I see from ANACS higher than what I see from ICG. This is a personal perception and others may not agree. I'm more than happy to accept others may put ICG higher than ANACS.
David
...the chop house serves dry aged PCGS with 3 cuts of NGC...ANACS and ICG are fit for a good ground chuck burger cooked medium-rare...the rest go in hotdogs; lips, eyelids and buttholes and there is plenty of it
....but I like baseball medium rare
I could not agree more. I love cherrypicking nice coins that people pass over simply because of the plastic. Take this ICG coin I just bought on eBay. Most would call it dreck, but I happened to love the eye appeal and that it's an unattributed RPM. So a nice attractively toned 1938-D/D in MS-66 for $35.00? Yes please.
I only ever bought two ICG slabs in my life and I will never buy another. One, a ICG graded AU 53 1875 CC Trade Dollar and two, an ICG grade EF 40 1874 CC Trade Dollar. Both came back from NGC and PCGS as 'Details' Cleaned. In other words I was out the money I paid for two Carson City coins. I may be harsh but personally I would never trust an ICG slabed coin.
PS: My coin dealer, who I trust explicitly, has an ICG gold $2 1/2 graded EF. He has graded it VF and 'cleaned'.
This is a bit troublesome:
peacockcoins
There is no way I would equate ICG and SEGS.
Is Bluesheet still listing Anacs and ICG slabs on its pricing?
Does anyone take the Bluesheet seriously?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I for one have always said that I love ICG. My first submission was to them and my most recent submission is set to be shipped today I believe. Customer service, value, and turn around times are second to none. Like someone else remarked -where else can you speak directly with a grader?- it’s just unparalleled.
I bought and HTT in an ICG MS63 holder a few years back. Cracked it, now in an NGC holder:
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I have coins in PCGS, NGC and ICG slabs....I buy the coin and do not concern myself with the slab. Since I do not sell coins, I have the luxury of ignoring the slab premium. Cheers, RickO
Years ago I submitted the King of silver eagles to ICG. I have strong reason to believe doing so, instead of submitting to pcgs, cost me at least $60K.
I like ICG and I can not lie
Oh, I had no idea what generation of holder it was. I will have to look up the different generations. Thank you for the information, I appreciate it.
Actually, the meat is the same. You just pay more for it at the chophouse and the chef does not come out to your table to say hello, see how you are doing, and leave you a personal note!
Unfortunately, you did not remove the coins before trying for a cross.
What do you expect? A top TPGS is NOT going to let you know a second tier TPGS knows how to grade.
The corrosion was NOT on the coin when it was graded so your post is of little value when evaluating a TPGS. However, I'm glad you posted it. It lets us know to monitor or coins both raw and slabbed. This is common on ancients. In fact last week I looked at two of my Greek bronze coins from Syracuse and both had deteriorated. One cannot be saved but I conserved the other. Hopefully, it will remain stable for a few years.
That is a very tough lesson!
I thought every experienced and knowledgeable collector/dealer/investor knew that a coin in a PGCS slab generally brings more than an NGC slab which beings more than an ICG slab...etc.
PS
I hate these discussions about TPGS. They all make label mistakes, and they all make authentication and grading errors. I don't allow this in class because it would take the entire week to hear all the stories!
If you have a problem, get it fixed. No TPGS wants an error holder out in the market.
I consider myself fairy experienced and knowlegeable, on moderns anyway. I submitted it to icg with the thought that they would be lenient and give it a PR70, which were fetching slightly higher bids on ebay than the PR69 tier 1 TPG's at the time. They didn't -- actually it came back from icg a couple points lower than 70. I have a strong hunch it ended up in a PR70 DCAM pcgs holder shortly after that.
@92vette said: "I consider myself fairy experienced and knowlegeable, on moderns anyway. I submitted it to ICG with the THOUGHT that they would be lenient and give it a PR70,"
I grade at ICG. "Lenient? " OVER MY DEAD BODY. What a slur. Not if I saw the coin. "Lenient" is not in my dictionary. Think I want to screw the next buyer of that coin? I have the buyer and seller in mind. For that reason, as far as I can tell, we grade everything as we see them.
@92vette continued."...which were fetching slightly higher bids on ebay than the PR69 tier 1 TPG's at the time. They didn't -- actually it came back from ICG a couple points lower than 70. I have a strong HUNCH it ended up in a PR70 DCAM pcgs holder shortly after that."
Hunch? Based on what? Your knowledge and experience thinking your coin was actually a 70? I shudder to think that you believe PCGS would be "lenient!"
I'm not an expert coin grader. I do have some knowlege and experience of the market though. I say 'hunch' because I cannot prove the coin ended up in pcgs 70 holder but I have strong circumstantial evidence it did. So maybe 'hunch' is not an accurate term.
Were you grading at ICG about 5 years ago?