@jmlanzaf said:
Registry sets. It's not exactly thievery, but the blatant appeal to ego has increased submissions and resubmissions.
Grade inflation. Coupled with registry sets it forces submission and resubmission.
Without registry sets, why would anyone be slabbing modern mint products thatall and up 69 or 70? But instead of zero submissions, they get tens of thousands.
Registry sets are self-fleecing.
Registry sets are a magnifcently brilliant idea. Create a contest for compulsive personalities that combines the drive to 'win' with the need for external validation AND during the process THEY pay you tons of money to participate! Absolutely brilliant!
Nobody is forced to submit coins to a TPG. We do so willingly and knowing it costs money. BUT we do it because we think it adds enough value that the benefit outweighs the costs. So while we complain about being fleeced, we are actually using the TPGs to our advantage. The 'fleecing' is simply that we don't want to spend as much money to take advantage of the TPG services.
Grade inflation is not the sole fault of the TPGs. We are co-dependent. We resubmit and resubmit coins until it gets the 'right' grade, which means the higher grade we want. In other words, we pay and pay and pay until the TPG opinion meets our financial expectations. Coins don't get resubmitted for accuracy, they get resubmitted for an increased grade (i.e. grade inflation).
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@jmlanzaf said:
Registry sets. It's not exactly thievery, but the blatant appeal to ego has increased submissions and resubmissions.
Grade inflation. Coupled with registry sets it forces submission and resubmission.
Without registry sets, why would anyone be slabbing modern mint products thatall and up 69 or 70? But instead of zero submissions, they get tens of thousands.
Registry sets are self-fleecing.
Registry sets are a magnifcently brilliant idea. Create a contest for compulsive personalities that combines the drive to 'win' with the need for external validation AND during the process THEY pay you tons of money to participate! Absolutely brilliant!
Nobody is forced to submit coins to a TPG. We do so willingly and knowing it costs money. BUT we do it because we think it adds enough value that the benefit outweighs the costs. So while we complain about being fleeced, we are actually using the TPGs to our advantage. The 'fleecing' is simply that we don't want to spend as much money to take advantage of the TPG services.
Grade inflation is not the sole fault of the TPGs. We are co-dependent. We resubmit and resubmit coins until it gets the 'right' grade, which means the higher grade we want. In other words, we pay and pay and pay until the TPG opinion meets our financial expectations. Coins don't get resubmitted for accuracy, they get resubmitted for an increased grade (i.e. grade inflation).
Oh, I agree. WE are definitely complicit in the fleecing. As I said in another post around the same topic: we have met the enemy and he is us.
When/if grading changes to a 100 point system I will simply close down my sets in the registry (no real loss to our hosts as I'm not a big hitter), stop buying, stop submitting and just put my collection on ice with the slabs waiting to become historical relics in and of themselves.
I'd check out of the hobby and probably put more of my money into cycling and photography.
@LanLord said:
When/if grading changes to a 100 point system I will simply close down my sets in the registry (no real loss to our hosts as I'm not a big hitter), stop buying, stop submitting and just put my collection on ice with the slabs waiting to become historical relics in and of themselves.
>
You won't be alone.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@LanLord said:
When/if grading changes to a 100 point system I will simply close down my sets in the registry (no real loss to our hosts as I'm not a big hitter), stop buying, stop submitting and just put my collection on ice with the slabs waiting to become historical relics in and of themselves.
I'd check out of the hobby and probably put more of my money into cycling and photography.
Very well and thoughtfully said.
It's so close for me to go the "WTF" route that it isn't even funny.
I'll miss the fun of the chase, but once the quarry is so foggy, you just stop hunting.
I think we've about run out of hoops to jump through.
a 100 point grading system will be a boom for resubmission business at the TPGs. Look for them to actively promote it, especially those needing to increase revenue.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
@derryb said:
a 100 point grading system will be a boom for resubmission business at the TPGs. Look for them to actively promote it, especially those needing to increase revenue.
Looks like PCGS will not be doing this anytime soon, given recent comments stating this.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
@derryb said:
a 100 point grading system will be a boom for resubmission business at the TPGs. Look for them to actively promote it, especially those needing to increase revenue.
Looks like PCGS will not be doing this anytime soon, given recent comments stating this.
Let's see, how many comments against change compared to how many folks who don't EVEN KNOW Cu chats exist?
CU is a very tiny world in the numismatic universe. While the members here run the entire spectrum of chemical elements from "hot puffs" of Hydrogen to precious or Heavy Metals we still amount to a bunch of atoms who will have virtually no influence on a TPGS decision.
I can recall many well respected major dealers (the heavy metals) who resisted slabs for many years. Now, they have no "raw" coins in their cases!
Collecting is part of our genes. I will be a very hard thing to quit and eventually, most of you saying you will quit will eventually own some 93.5 coins or whatever.
@derryb said:
a 100 point grading system will be a boom for resubmission business at the TPGs. Look for them to actively promote it, especially those needing to increase revenue.
May as well close up shop if that is the sole reason to go to a 100 point grading scale. I see zero benefit to the consumer/collector. There is no way I am going to waste my time and money to regrade the few slabbed coins that I have.
As an aside, I was looking at a couple of modern MS 69 and 70 coins the other day to try to find out what made one better and to justify the grade. I couldn’t tell because the slabs were all marked up with small scratches and nicks!
There's no magic in a 10 based number system, except the zeros are a little easier to work with. They could do a 700 point system which would be less disruptive than a conversion from 70 to 100 points, but probably has too many points in an already somewhat subjective ANA set of grading standards.
please NO.. absolutely nuts...
is anyone able to positively identify and demonstrate and proof the difference between a 99 and 100.
Not 98 and 99 or 69 and 70 ( on the 100 scale)
From the beginning, a 100 point system would have made more sense. For this reason it will continue to be a possibility. Fact remains it would be boom for re-submissions. At the same time, a growing acceptance in the eye of Joe Public would be a bust for current 70 point submissions.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
As I've written before, if this is done, I'm done with the hobby. All that's going to happen is that the TPG(s) that do this will get an initial rush of new submissions.
X number of years out, everything worth grading will be graded, and what will be done to generate new / resubmissions? It'll be be just like what we have experienced for the last 20 years or so, part II. How much money have you spent submitting coins? How much money have you spent trying to cross or resubmit coins? No thank you.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I read all of the above posts and see that I may be in the minority here, but I would not do anything different if PCGS went to a 100 point system. I realize and admit I have a condition so I collect and will always collect. It is who we are whether we want to admit it or not. Regardless of what scale is used I will always collect the best coins (in my opinion) that I can afford, whether the number is 63 or 86.
The TPGS's provide a needed service to a large part of the collecting community. While some collectors don't need/care about anyone's opinion except their own, others would be taken advantage of without slabs. I cannot grade a diamond but I know EXACTLY what my personal opinion (very often not the same as my TPGS opinion ) is concerning a coin. That's why If I were to buy a diamond, I'm going to seek the opinion of a certification company.
So, while grading standards have changed over the last forty + years and will continue to change, **my personal* grading opinion HAS NOT Changed AT ALL!
Bottom line:
TPGS will not go away. Most need them.
They set the grading standard for their slab and will continue to do it.
They don't care if a small percentage of customers stop using their services.
I personally don't give a .... about anything that happens to grading in the future. I really don't care if anyone gets upset with any changes down the road either. When I get upset with a TPGS, I get over it as it is their business. Only time will tell if a change they make was a good one. All I need to do is learn and roll with the TPGS changes in my professional life. What works for me might work for you.
I can care less what scale is used. I'm not re-slabbing ANYTHING because of it! The only change I would go for is to add one point to the current scale.
It would be below basal state and called BTF (The Bowtie Fantastic Grade).
Think about it! All sorts of crap can be submitted. TPGs will make MILLIONS. People will be running over coins to get them to slab.
I can hardly wait.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
Comments
Registry sets are self-fleecing.
Registry sets are a magnifcently brilliant idea. Create a contest for compulsive personalities that combines the drive to 'win' with the need for external validation AND during the process THEY pay you tons of money to participate! Absolutely brilliant!
Nobody is forced to submit coins to a TPG. We do so willingly and knowing it costs money. BUT we do it because we think it adds enough value that the benefit outweighs the costs. So while we complain about being fleeced, we are actually using the TPGs to our advantage. The 'fleecing' is simply that we don't want to spend as much money to take advantage of the TPG services.
Grade inflation is not the sole fault of the TPGs. We are co-dependent. We resubmit and resubmit coins until it gets the 'right' grade, which means the higher grade we want. In other words, we pay and pay and pay until the TPG opinion meets our financial expectations. Coins don't get resubmitted for accuracy, they get resubmitted for an increased grade (i.e. grade inflation).
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Closer and closer comes the day of jubilation for coin auction companies.
and towel throwing contests.
I don't understand what you wrote? Sorry.
Oh, I agree. WE are definitely complicit in the fleecing. As I said in another post around the same topic: we have met the enemy and he is us.
When/if grading changes to a 100 point system I will simply close down my sets in the registry (no real loss to our hosts as I'm not a big hitter), stop buying, stop submitting and just put my collection on ice with the slabs waiting to become historical relics in and of themselves.
I'd check out of the hobby and probably put more of my money into cycling and photography.
>
You won't be alone.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Very well and thoughtfully said.
It's so close for me to go the "WTF" route that it isn't even funny.
I'll miss the fun of the chase, but once the quarry is so foggy, you just stop hunting.
I think we've about run out of hoops to jump through.
100% Positive BST transactions
a 100 point grading system will be a boom for resubmission business at the TPGs. Look for them to actively promote it, especially those needing to increase revenue.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Looks like PCGS will not be doing this anytime soon, given recent comments stating this.
@MANOFCOINS There is a new announcement from Mr. Willis at the top of the US Coin homepage.
So would you rather have an NGC MS66 CAC Saint or a PCGS (no-bean) MS93?
Let's see, how many comments against change compared to how many folks who don't EVEN KNOW Cu chats exist?
CU is a very tiny world in the numismatic universe. While the members here run the entire spectrum of chemical elements from "hot puffs" of Hydrogen to precious or Heavy Metals we still amount to a bunch of atoms who will have virtually no influence on a TPGS decision.
I can recall many well respected major dealers (the heavy metals) who resisted slabs for many years. Now, they have no "raw" coins in their cases!
Collecting is part of our genes. I will be a very hard thing to quit and eventually, most of you saying you will quit will eventually own some 93.5 coins or whatever.
Interesting. Am I one of the "quitters" here or a collector who has never heard of CU? I'll take the 93 and wait for Mr. Hall's "sticker" company.
I guess the momentum just stopped.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Yeah, this has the momentum of a fence post.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
May as well close up shop if that is the sole reason to go to a 100 point grading scale. I see zero benefit to the consumer/collector. There is no way I am going to waste my time and money to regrade the few slabbed coins that I have.
As an aside, I was looking at a couple of modern MS 69 and 70 coins the other day to try to find out what made one better and to justify the grade. I couldn’t tell because the slabs were all marked up with small scratches and nicks!
That will be fine with me. I don't look for nice coins, not 100 coins. If I get sick, no chance of recovery, I'll try for upgrades then.
There's no magic in a 10 based number system, except the zeros are a little easier to work with. They could do a 700 point system which would be less disruptive than a conversion from 70 to 100 points, but probably has too many points in an already somewhat subjective ANA set of grading standards.
I think the idea is stupid. JMHO
Does anyone think the grading services can accurately grade 21 points between the current 60 to 70? It's hard enough to do 11.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
What scale does sports card grading use?
I get the feeling that sports card grading is a bigger business than coin grading. Is that true?
It's not going to happen. PCGS says so here: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1005932/100-point-grading#latest
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
It's a ten point scale. I think simplicity is pretty attractive, but I'm not so sure we can roll back coin grading to ten points.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
What do you disagree with in my post @DIMEMAN? Please enlighten me.
Got me a hundy. I can hear it now.
Thanks everyone for a dynamic discussion. The post by PCGS makes it clear the 70 point system stays.
I think all civil communication is helpful and appreciate that the PCGS management listens to this forum and keeps us informed on items such as this.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Thank you for editing the thread title.
please NO.. absolutely nuts...
is anyone able to positively identify and demonstrate and proof the difference between a 99 and 100.
Not 98 and 99 or 69 and 70 ( on the 100 scale)
As expected...No reply. So sad.
Now I've learned nothing.
regardless of recent developments, I don't believe all the registry weenies who said they would quit if a change to 100 point grading happened.
The sickness they have is terminal , set a bottle of whisky in front of a drunk and he will drink it even if it costs more than it did yesterday .
If I was a shrink I would create a registry set for mental illness and laugh all the way to the bank.
From the beginning, a 100 point system would have made more sense. For this reason it will continue to be a possibility. Fact remains it would be boom for re-submissions. At the same time, a growing acceptance in the eye of Joe Public would be a bust for current 70 point submissions.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
If they go to a 100 point system, I want all the numbers used from 1 to 100.
As I've written before, if this is done, I'm done with the hobby. All that's going to happen is that the TPG(s) that do this will get an initial rush of new submissions.
X number of years out, everything worth grading will be graded, and what will be done to generate new / resubmissions? It'll be be just like what we have experienced for the last 20 years or so, part II. How much money have you spent submitting coins? How much money have you spent trying to cross or resubmit coins? No thank you.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I read all of the above posts and see that I may be in the minority here, but I would not do anything different if PCGS went to a 100 point system. I realize and admit I have a condition so I collect and will always collect. It is who we are whether we want to admit it or not. Regardless of what scale is used I will always collect the best coins (in my opinion) that I can afford, whether the number is 63 or 86.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
As I've written before...
The TPGS's provide a needed service to a large part of the collecting community. While some collectors don't need/care about anyone's opinion except their own, others would be taken advantage of without slabs. I cannot grade a diamond but I know EXACTLY what my personal opinion (very often not the same as my TPGS opinion
) is concerning a coin. That's why If I were to buy a diamond, I'm going to seek the opinion of a certification company.
So, while grading standards have changed over the last forty + years and will continue to change, **my personal* grading opinion HAS NOT Changed AT ALL!
Bottom line:
I personally don't give a .... about anything that happens to grading in the future. I really don't care if anyone gets upset with any changes down the road either. When I get upset with a TPGS, I get over it as it is their business. Only time will tell if a change they make was a good one. All I need to do is learn and roll with the TPGS changes in my professional life. What works for me might work for you.
I can care less what scale is used. I'm not re-slabbing ANYTHING because of it! The only change I would go for is to add one point to the current scale.
It would be below basal state and called BTF (The Bowtie Fantastic Grade).
Think about it! All sorts of crap can be submitted. TPGs will make MILLIONS. People will be running over coins to get them to slab.
I can hardly wait.
Pete