@DIMEMAN said:
I think a LOT of collectors like myself would see going to another grading scale would just be yet another way of fleecing us out of yet more money that would do us absolutely no good!
Another way? How is PCGS currently fleecing you (and a LOT of others) out of money?
For starters....the $12 reholder fee when you send a coin in for attribution that is already in a PCGS.
How is that fleecing you? Don't they have to reholder the coin?
Because they already got big money grading it before. How much do you think that slab cost?
@jmlanzaf said:
1. Everyone hates change
2. It's not the world's most complicated change
3. Many people collect more than just U.S. coins. If you collect ancients, for example, the scale is 100 years old with just VG, F, VF, XF, AU (a recent add) and MS, no numbers. Some people still use FDC rather than MS. NGC uses a 5 point scale for "strike" and "surface" quality. People who buy ancients and U.S. type navigate both systems without difficulty.
4. There is a newer Asian TPGS Hua Xia that uses a 100 point scale and appears to be THE place to go with ancient Chinese coins. And, again, people navigate both systems.
That said, I think of all possible 100 point scales, the jump from 58 to 80 is the dumbest. It essentially creates a system that lacks linearity. There will be a 25 point gap between VF(25) and AU and then a 30 point gap from AU to UNC. Why not a more linear 100 point scale?
Or, as someone else mentioned, why not a more condensed linear 25 point scale? I mean, what is the point of having all the Sheldon numbers that really don't exist. It's already a bit asymmetric with grades from 60 to 70 extant, but all those gaps lower. Why no XF 43? XF 48?
How about a three point scale? Heavily worn, slightly worn, and uncirculated. Price them as you wish!
Just because you see and hear about the 100 point scale doesn't mean it will happen. Its fake news. Just like politics you can follow the money trail. The polls are wrong again and I'm betting my proofs on it !
From what I've been reading here it doesn't sound like it's gaining steam at all.
If the idea is to send in all our slabs in for conversion to the 100 point system after paying thousands putting them into their current slabs...........forget it!!
@fiftysevener said:
Just because you see and hear about the 100 point scale doesn't mean it will happen. Its fake news. Just like politics you can follow the money trail. The polls are wrong again and I'm betting my proofs on it !
I hope you are right and that it is fake news in the US because I do not want to, and probably would not, change any of the 70's I have at all.
However, when I see variety paper labels on graded coins selling for sometimes double the normal price of the coins in a regular label, I can easily imagine crazy high bids for coins in a 100 label. Things like that already don't make sense to me, but if there is money to be made it will probably change for the worse.
It is not fake news in China with a lot more potential collectors who have plenty of money: Bidding was intense for the 99 Panda a few years ago, and the millionaires there will love bidding high, to be the only ones to own the rare 100's.
They are currently using both scales in several auctions. Where NGC and PCGS have set up shop they are using the Sheldon scale. But if the grading and auction companies anticipate more profits with 100 scales, my guess is that is where the money trail will go.
I have not read all the posts and I assume it has already been said, but a suggestion like this is likely just a plan to regrade those 10s of millions coins that have already been graded.
It would cause a lot of people to abandon collecting. Imagine all those "perfect" 70s that would not make the new 100 grade.
While we're at it, let's change the clock too!!!! The current clock is based on a 60 point or 60 minute scale...let's change an hour to 100 minutes!!! Then we can talk about changing all the clocks in your house, all your watches, all the clock towers, digital clocks, car clocks, town hall clocks, etc, etc.... think of the money to be made replacing everything and it'll be so much easier to tell time, 100 seconds in a minute, quarter of the hour will be 75 minutes past. Then we could play with how many hours in a day, say 25 hours to keep things interesting... then our calendars could all change. . . maybe we need 100 months in a year...we already have 100 years in a century. Everything should be changed in increments of 100.
Or we could leave our systems in place right where they are.
@Onastone Just the other day, somebody claimed in a news article that a slight majority of millennials firmly believe that 'a quarter of an hour' is 25 minutes.
@DIMEMAN said:
I think a LOT of collectors like myself would see going to another grading scale would just be yet another way of fleecing us out of yet more money that would do us absolutely no good!
Another way? How is PCGS currently fleecing you (and a LOT of others) out of money?
Registry sets. It's not exactly thievery, but the blatant appeal to ego has increased submissions and resubmissions.
Grade inflation. Coupled with registry sets it forces submission and resubmission.
Without registry sets, why would anyone be slabbing modern mint products thatall and up 69 or 70? But instead of zero submissions, they get tens of thousands.
@Namvet69 said:
I don't think that creating a longer grade scale is going to "fix" the problem. Grading is supposed to be subjective based on a known perfect or near perfect coin from the mint. Of course all coins begin to acquire wear and damage from the moment of creation. If 70 grades cannot categorize any coin, 100 will not be better. Look how many opinions we have about toning, natural vs artificial. Our egos and self centeredness interfere with us agreeing on perceived beauty. IMHO Peace Roy
The whole coin market seems driven by ego. Registry sets. Total genius.
Look at what ego has done for lowball coins. 10 years ago, the same coin would be unsaleable an dcertainty unslabbable. Now, they frequently sell for more than a collectable circ coin of the same type.
@Insider2 said:
Unfortunately, there are very few folks posting here who will have any influence on how coins are graded in the future.
This may or may not be true. PCGS would be wise to stop and think "who" made them:!? Us collectors....that's who. Without us they have nothing! So it would all depend on how many are like myself and would not have their coins regraded. To me this would be a STUPID move! I would stay (reluctantly) if my current slabbed coins were still good in the Registry. If not I am gone! And I don't feel that I would be alone. I think a LOT of collectors like myself would see going to another grading scale would just be yet another way of fleecing us out of yet more money that would do us absolutely no good!
Dimeman, I hate to break it to you but if the TPGS lost EVERY average joe collector and every vest-pocket who didn't like the change, they might let one grader go, stop buying our lunch, and raise the air conditioner temp to 74 during the day before raising the submission fees.
@Insider2 said:
Unfortunately, there are very few folks posting here who will have any influence on how coins are graded in the future.
This may or may not be true. PCGS would be wise to stop and think "who" made them:!? Us collectors....that's who. Without us they have nothing! So it would all depend on how many are like myself and would not have their coins regraded. ike myself would see going to another grading scale would just be yet another way of fleecing us out of yet more money that would do us absolutely no good!
Dimeman, I hate to break it to you but if the TPGS lost EVERY average joe collector and every vest-pocket who didn't like the change, they might let one grader go, stop buying our lunch, and raise the air conditioner temp to 74 during the day before raising the submission fees.
I half agree. But the effect is indirect. If the average Joe abandons registry sets because the change is confusing or offputting, they would lose far more than one grader and lunch.
Beyond direct fees from submissions, they need there to be a market for their product.
How much money does PCGS make from bulk dealer submissions of moderns that are connected to registry sets?
@StrikeOutXXX said:
Just imagine how big the pricing guides will get with all the new grade columns!
Wonder how any of the grade guarantees will fare if a 70 regrades to a 99 or a 65 to an 89, etc.
There is no such thing as a perfect coin. It's an illusion we as collectors harbor in MS or PRF 70 the number is OURS it belongs to US coin weiners. Now, if you go to 100 it's just like anything else ........I mean it might as well be one of those fake phony fraud surveys every company from the jerks who forgot to leave your newspaper out front and then you call customer service and they wanna say "hey how did you like our customer service?" Well, if you left the paper in the first place I wouldn't have to rate you in the second place.
Man leave well enough alone it's fun arguing about how good it works. and another thing if your delivering the newspaper get it on the porch!
@Baley said:
It makes absolutely NO sense to skip from 58 to 80. That would make the silly, illogical current "line" between Uncirculated and "Almost" into a giant chasm.
If I were going to promote a 100 point system for grading coins, I'd leave the current 70 points in place, get rid of the "line" at 60 so there could be 60-64 coins with "rub", (and ugly coins with no wear below 60) and have grades over 70 and to 100 would be logarithmic increase in Quality due to outstanding eye appeal, usually because of toning, which can multiply the value.
except for the people who HATE toning and consider toning a decrease in value.
Then They simply wouldn't pay for it.... Just like Now.
@Baley said:
It makes absolutely NO sense to skip from 58 to 80. That would make the silly, illogical current "line" between Uncirculated and "Almost" into a giant chasm.
If I were going to promote a 100 point system for grading coins, I'd leave the current 70 points in place, get rid of the "line" at 60 so there could be 60-64 coins with "rub", (and ugly coins with no wear below 60) and have grades over 70 and to 100 would be logarithmic increase in Quality due to outstanding eye appeal, usually because of toning, which can multiply the value.
except for the people who HATE toning and consider toning a decrease in value.
Then They simply wouldn't pay for it.... Just like Now.
Except you've forever altered the landscape. At least in theory, an MS68 coin could now be either toned or untoned. [I have some theories about this not being exactly true, but no formal evidence.] In your suggested scheme where the point system would reflect toning, this would no longer be true. The same two coins, identical MS68 except for toning now, would automatically get different grades in your scheme.
So, if I hate toning and MS94 means beautifully toned, I can't buy MS94 coins. That means that my pleasing untoned registry set will always be inferior to the toned one. So I either have to cede the registry sets to you and your toning bias, or I have to start buying coins that I don't find pleasing. [Hypothetical me, I don't mind toning.]
If they're not going to use the entire 100 points, it seems pointless to me. At first the 100 points seems logical and all, but I would prefer to leave it alone. If they want to do the 100 points overseas, then have at it, but leave the US coins alone.
@BillDugan1959 said: @Onastone Just the other day, somebody claimed in a news article that a slight majority of millennials firmly believe that 'a quarter of an hour' is 25 minutes.
@Baley said:
It makes absolutely NO sense to skip from 58 to 80. That would make the silly, illogical current "line" between Uncirculated and "Almost" into a giant chasm.
If I were going to promote a 100 point system for grading coins, I'd leave the current 70 points in place, get rid of the "line" at 60 so there could be 60-64 coins with "rub", (and ugly coins with no wear below 60) and have grades over 70 and to 100 would be logarithmic increase in Quality due to outstanding eye appeal, usually because of toning, which can multiply the value.
except for the people who HATE toning and consider toning a decrease in value.
Then They simply wouldn't pay for it.... Just like Now.
Except you've forever altered the landscape. At least in theory, an MS68 coin could now be either toned or untoned. [I have some theories about this not being exactly true, but no formal evidence.] In your suggested scheme where the point system would reflect toning, this would no longer be true. The same two coins, identical MS68 except for toning now, would automatically get different grades in your scheme.
So, if I hate toning and MS94 means beautifully toned, I can't buy MS94 coins. That means that my pleasing untoned registry set will always be inferior to the toned one. So I either have to cede the registry sets to you and your toning bias, or I have to start buying coins that I don't find pleasing.
It just seems like a grade should be a quality appraisal, backed by a guarantee. If no one backstops the third party opinion, coin might as well be raw.
What really worries me and should be of concern to all forum members is this. If the 100 Pt. system is adopted and is a success PCGS may decide to raise the threshold for achieving the various 1-4 stars and the 5th star:Master Collector. Now that would really hurt.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@Baley said:
It makes absolutely NO sense to skip from 58 to 80. That would make the silly, illogical current "line" between Uncirculated and "Almost" into a giant chasm.
If I were going to promote a 100 point system for grading coins, I'd leave the current 70 points in place, get rid of the "line" at 60 so there could be 60-64 coins with "rub", (and ugly coins with no wear below 60) and have grades over 70 and to 100 would be logarithmic increase in Quality due to outstanding eye appeal, usually because of toning, which can multiply the value.
except for the people who HATE toning and consider toning a decrease in value.
Then They simply wouldn't pay for it.... Just like Now.
Except you've forever altered the landscape. At least in theory, an MS68 coin could now be either toned or untoned. [I have some theories about this not being exactly true, but no formal evidence.] In your suggested scheme where the point system would reflect toning, this would no longer be true. The same two coins, identical MS68 except for toning now, would automatically get different grades in your scheme.
So, if I hate toning and MS94 means beautifully toned, I can't buy MS94 coins. That means that my pleasing untoned registry set will always be inferior to the toned one. So I either have to cede the registry sets to you and your toning bias, or I have to start buying coins that I don't find pleasing.
It just seems like a grade should be a quality appraisal, backed by a guarantee. If no one backstops the third party opinion, coin might as well be raw.
I don't disagree. But you can't make toning part of the technical grade since that is a matter of taste not degree of preservation or even "quality". In my ever humble opinion.
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
What really worries me and should be of concern to all forum members is this. If the 100 Pt. system is adopted and is a success PCGS may decide to raise the threshold for achieving the various 1-4 stars and the 5th star:Master Collector. Now that would really hurt.
Even worse, what if the "disagree" button was now on a 100 point scale!
I've had coins sold to me as MS-69 that were garbage. One of them graded MS-66 when I sent it in for review. I have a couple other MS-69s that shouldn't be in MS-69 holders.
It seems that a dealer can hide behind the TPG label to get away from any responsibility when they sell a crappy coin.
By the same token, I've had extremely nice coins under graded as 69 that to this very day I can't see the "problem". Apparently, the way coins are submitted and the venue used to submit a coin will sometimes make a difference. This is simply crazy.
Having said that, a TPG is a fee paid opinion on coin quality. The service includes an authenticity opinion, which does add value. Standards do change which is bad enough. However, graders will also vary in their level of proficiency depending on the series, which makes it worse.
None of this even considers the number of TPGs that have gone defunct over differences in grading standards, financial problems and service levels.
A liquid sight-unseen market for graded coins was the original theory. Inconsistency, changing standards, the "need" for stickers, different results from different venues, variability in skill levels and now a proposed change in grading point scales - all of this invalidates the theory that a liquid sight unseen market can be established to the benefit of the hobby via third party grading.
Throw a new 100 pt. grading scale into the mix, and I am gone for good. I can appreciate a nice coin as much, or more raw as in a sealed plastic slab. Any serious collector can accurately describe his own coins, and we may be coming back to that.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
A coin that can be traded "sight unseen" is probably not a coin an advanced collector would be interested in owning, even at a "bargain" price according to a "sheet"
A coin that can be traded "sight unseen" is probably not a coin an advanced collector would be interested in owning, even at a "bargain" price according to a "sheet"
That was the original premise, however.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
If 100 points becomes the new grading standard scale. I'm out, cashing in for good, keeping my NO PROBLEM RAW coins and some foreign early silver a much under appreciated area of numismatics. That's that. I mean it. I've lived through, raw to black and white photos to color photos to different size holders to colors of inserts having a bearing on sale ability. This idea will be enough for me. It's probable the plus signs and what not grading standards that has me buying key date EF - AU coins now as it is.
If grading remains an opinion, increasing the gradients for uncirculated coinage from 10 to 40 makes the inconsistency even greater, and, to that extent, less trustworthy. If the change were accompanied by specific and concretely-defined convention supplemented, say, by computerized verification of some sort, the change may be easier to swallow.
If other major markets are on a 100-point scale, there then does exist some aesthetic rationale to join the rest of the world. Like the metric system, though, it's hard to make the initial jolted shift from the familiar to the unfamiliar. People like me and Dimeman who are used to the old system will balk, but we're the last generation that will.
As far as re-submissions are concerned, I definitely would not go through the cost and turmoil of sending my coins back through. I'd still buy based on how the coin looked and appealed to me, and would sell with the grades they already have (presuming they were reasonably accurate under the old system. It might be a windfall for the grading service over time, but I expect most folks would be like me, and leave it to future owners to decide if they want their new coin to be in a "modern" holder. After all, just because there's a 100-point scale doesn't mean the coins graded under the 70-point scale don't possess the authentication, certification and quality commentary that people want, already present.
100 points using all 100 points is cutting things WAY too fine. A five point spread between grades MIGHT work IF the 70 point system wasn't so firmly entrenched. That would actually end in a more abbreviated scale than what's in use now. The Mint state grades are too finely cut as it is-truthfully, I don't think anyone can CONSISTENTLY tell the difference between a 68+, 69, and 70. I don't think it's humanly possible.
@Insider2 said:
Unfortunately, there are very few folks posting here who will have any influence on how coins are graded in the future.
This may or may not be true. PCGS would be wise to stop and think "who" made them:!? Us collectors....that's who. Without us they have nothing! So it would all depend on how many are like myself and would not have their coins regraded. To me this would be a STUPID move! I would stay (reluctantly) if my current slabbed coins were still good in the Registry. If not I am gone! And I don't feel that I would be alone. I think a LOT of collectors like myself would see going to another grading scale would just be yet another way of fleecing us out of yet more money that would do us absolutely no good!
Dimeman, I hate to break it to you but if the TPGS lost EVERY average joe collector and every vest-pocket who didn't like the change, they might let one grader go, stop buying our lunch, and raise the air conditioner temp to 74 during the day before raising the submission fees.
They wouldn't just lose us they would also lose the dealers that we buy from. This whole hobby is driven by the collector.
If the tpgs go to the 100 point scale it would be a golden opertunity for a new grading company. And from what I've herd here, there are a few availed key players capeible of doing just that. I personally stopped the registry game when the plus grading came along. It's fairly the same as a 100 point system anyway. Going to 100 point grading scale would most likely be the nail in the coffin and a huge loss of steet cred for the tpgs. They should rember all they are selling is their credibility
The more we complicate the system used to communicate the grade of a coin, the worse things will get. I'm not saying that we can't make changes to it, but adding numbers and plusses and stars and smiley faces doesn't serve to clarify things.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
If it happens, I likely still collect coins. I just love them too much. It’s engrained now like a bad habit. As much as I loath the thought of the learning curve.
Like when an update comes on my phone, or a new phone, computer or program. Or when they rearrange the grocery store!! Ech! Just gotta roll with it.
Maybe every grading thread will end with CAC How can CAC fit into this 100 point system?
Take MS65 and MS65+ as the examples. One maps onto 90 and the other maps into 91. After regrade, A coins and B coins are 91 and C coins will be 90. In this case, most 91 will get a bean and any 90 with a bean is a crack out candidate
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The 70 point scale has been around for decades and has worked reasonably well within the human capacity to evaluate a coin. Does anyone seriously think that a 100 point scale will eliminate all of the controversies concerning coins being miss graded, grade inflation, grade guarantees, etc?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The 70 point scale has been around for decades and has worked reasonably well within the human capacity to evaluate a coin. Does anyone seriously think that a 100 point scale will eliminate all of the controversies concerning coins being miss graded, grade inflation, grade guarantees, etc?
No. The only real way to fix it is to stabilize standards and start aggressive buyback campaigns to purge the grade inflated dreck. This will never happen obviously.
@PerryHall said:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The 70 point scale has been around for decades and has worked reasonably well within the human capacity to evaluate a coin. Does anyone seriously think that a 100 point scale will eliminate all of the controversies concerning coins being miss graded, grade inflation, grade guarantees, etc?
No. The only real way to fix it is to stabilize standards and start aggressive buyback campaigns to purge the grade inflated dreck. This will never happen obviously.
Do you really think standards will be more stable just because they go to a 100 point scale?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The 70 point scale has been around for decades and has worked reasonably well within the human capacity to evaluate a coin. Does anyone seriously think that a 100 point scale will eliminate all of the controversies concerning coins being miss graded, grade inflation, grade guarantees, etc?
No. The only real way to fix it is to stabilize standards and start aggressive buyback campaigns to purge the grade inflated dreck. This will never happen obviously.
Do you really think standards will be more stable just because they go to a 100 point scale?
I was agreeing with you. A 100 point scale would just be another gimmick/ploy to be exploited by the services.
Millions and Million of dollars have been removed for grading purposes. Now what, submit all the graded coins for regrades taking millions out of the coin hobbie to support a wim of a new system. Another revenue generating source for the grading companies. If the collector community allow this they deserve what they get. I would not support another source of grading. CAC, what Joke !! If you can't depend on a grading company to get it right then why waste time spending money to have your coins graded only to waste more money to have the same coin graded again, now another way to raise more revenue.. When does it stop !!! I VOTE NO !!!!!
@HiBucky said:
Millions and Million of dollars have been removed for grading purposes. Now what, submit all the graded coins for regrades taking millions out of the coin hobbie to support a wim of a new system. Another revenue generating source for the grading companies. If the collector community allow this they deserve what they get. I would not support another source of grading. CAC, what Joke !! If you can't depend on a grading company to get it right then why waste time spending money to have your coins graded only to waste more money to have the same coin graded again, now another way to raise more revenue.. When does it stop !!! I VOTE NO !!!!!
Don't forget that stickers are trolls.
They take the professional opinion of the TPG and dissect it for their own agenda.
Comments
Because they already got big money grading it before. How much do you think that slab cost?
How about a three point scale? Heavily worn, slightly worn, and uncirculated. Price them as you wish!
The scale shown is not a 100 point scale. It is an 80 point scale. The 60's and 70's are not used.
Just because you see and hear about the 100 point scale doesn't mean it will happen. Its fake news. Just like politics you can follow the money trail. The polls are wrong again and I'm betting my proofs on it !
I suggest a simpler alternative,,,,, 2 grades,,,,, circulated or uncirculated. That is all we need.
Coins can't be consistently graded between 60-70 now,,,,,, how the heck are they going to do it between 60-100?
From what I've been reading here it doesn't sound like it's gaining steam at all.
If the idea is to send in all our slabs in for conversion to the 100 point system after paying thousands putting them into their current slabs...........forget it!!
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I hope you are right and that it is fake news in the US because I do not want to, and probably would not, change any of the 70's I have at all.
However, when I see variety paper labels on graded coins selling for sometimes double the normal price of the coins in a regular label, I can easily imagine crazy high bids for coins in a 100 label. Things like that already don't make sense to me, but if there is money to be made it will probably change for the worse.
It is not fake news in China with a lot more potential collectors who have plenty of money: Bidding was intense for the 99 Panda a few years ago, and the millionaires there will love bidding high, to be the only ones to own the rare 100's.
https://www.chinesecoins.com/chinas-new-coin-grading-system/
https://www.chinesecoins.com/chinas-new-coin-grading-system-coins-graded-yuantai-100-feature-online-auction/
They are currently using both scales in several auctions. Where NGC and PCGS have set up shop they are using the Sheldon scale. But if the grading and auction companies anticipate more profits with 100 scales, my guess is that is where the money trail will go.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
The TPGS cant even grade appropriately with the 70 point system, are we really moving forward if they cant even fix their grading pre 100
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I have not read all the posts and I assume it has already been said, but a suggestion like this is likely just a plan to regrade those 10s of millions coins that have already been graded.
It would cause a lot of people to abandon collecting. Imagine all those "perfect" 70s that would not make the new 100 grade.
I commented late to this. 100 Point Scale?
I can't even count that high.
Pete
While we're at it, let's change the clock too!!!! The current clock is based on a 60 point or 60 minute scale...let's change an hour to 100 minutes!!! Then we can talk about changing all the clocks in your house, all your watches, all the clock towers, digital clocks, car clocks, town hall clocks, etc, etc.... think of the money to be made replacing everything and it'll be so much easier to tell time, 100 seconds in a minute, quarter of the hour will be 75 minutes past. Then we could play with how many hours in a day, say 25 hours to keep things interesting... then our calendars could all change. . . maybe we need 100 months in a year...we already have 100 years in a century. Everything should be changed in increments of 100.
Or we could leave our systems in place right where they are.
@Onastone Just the other day, somebody claimed in a news article that a slight majority of millennials firmly believe that 'a quarter of an hour' is 25 minutes.
All this would be is an admission of how broken the current system is.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Registry sets. It's not exactly thievery, but the blatant appeal to ego has increased submissions and resubmissions.
Grade inflation. Coupled with registry sets it forces submission and resubmission.
Without registry sets, why would anyone be slabbing modern mint products thatall and up 69 or 70? But instead of zero submissions, they get tens of thousands.
The whole coin market seems driven by ego. Registry sets. Total genius.
Look at what ego has done for lowball coins. 10 years ago, the same coin would be unsaleable an dcertainty unslabbable. Now, they frequently sell for more than a collectable circ coin of the same type.
I have found the enemy and it is us
Dimeman, I hate to break it to you but if the TPGS lost EVERY average joe collector and every vest-pocket who didn't like the change, they might let one grader go, stop buying our lunch, and raise the air conditioner temp to 74 during the day before raising the submission fees.
I half agree. But the effect is indirect. If the average Joe abandons registry sets because the change is confusing or offputting, they would lose far more than one grader and lunch.
Beyond direct fees from submissions, they need there to be a market for their product.
How much money does PCGS make from bulk dealer submissions of moderns that are connected to registry sets?
What did we ever do before these sets. How many folks build them a thousand?
From what I've seen, if I were an average collector, I'd be terrified to buy a raw coin.
There is no such thing as a perfect coin. It's an illusion we as collectors harbor in MS or PRF 70 the number is OURS it belongs to US coin weiners. Now, if you go to 100 it's just like anything else ........I mean it might as well be one of those fake phony fraud surveys every company from the jerks who forgot to leave your newspaper out front and then you call customer service and they wanna say "hey how did you like our customer service?" Well, if you left the paper in the first place I wouldn't have to rate you in the second place.
Man leave well enough alone it's fun arguing about how good it works. and another thing if your delivering the newspaper get it on the porch!
Then They simply wouldn't pay for it.... Just like Now.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Except you've forever altered the landscape. At least in theory, an MS68 coin could now be either toned or untoned. [I have some theories about this not being exactly true, but no formal evidence.] In your suggested scheme where the point system would reflect toning, this would no longer be true. The same two coins, identical MS68 except for toning now, would automatically get different grades in your scheme.
So, if I hate toning and MS94 means beautifully toned, I can't buy MS94 coins. That means that my pleasing untoned registry set will always be inferior to the toned one. So I either have to cede the registry sets to you and your toning bias, or I have to start buying coins that I don't find pleasing. [Hypothetical me, I don't mind toning.]
If they're not going to use the entire 100 points, it seems pointless to me. At first the 100 points seems logical and all, but I would prefer to leave it alone. If they want to do the 100 points overseas, then have at it, but leave the US coins alone.
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Thankfully im not that sad majority
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It just seems like a grade should be a quality appraisal, backed by a guarantee. If no one backstops the third party opinion, coin might as well be raw.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
What really worries me and should be of concern to all forum members is this. If the 100 Pt. system is adopted and is a success PCGS may decide to raise the threshold for achieving the various 1-4 stars and the 5th star:Master Collector. Now that would really hurt.
I don't disagree. But you can't make toning part of the technical grade since that is a matter of taste not degree of preservation or even "quality". In my ever humble opinion.
Even worse, what if the "disagree" button was now on a 100 point scale!
I've had coins sold to me as MS-69 that were garbage. One of them graded MS-66 when I sent it in for review. I have a couple other MS-69s that shouldn't be in MS-69 holders.
It seems that a dealer can hide behind the TPG label to get away from any responsibility when they sell a crappy coin.
By the same token, I've had extremely nice coins under graded as 69 that to this very day I can't see the "problem". Apparently, the way coins are submitted and the venue used to submit a coin will sometimes make a difference. This is simply crazy.
Having said that, a TPG is a fee paid opinion on coin quality. The service includes an authenticity opinion, which does add value. Standards do change which is bad enough. However, graders will also vary in their level of proficiency depending on the series, which makes it worse.
None of this even considers the number of TPGs that have gone defunct over differences in grading standards, financial problems and service levels.
A liquid sight-unseen market for graded coins was the original theory. Inconsistency, changing standards, the "need" for stickers, different results from different venues, variability in skill levels and now a proposed change in grading point scales - all of this invalidates the theory that a liquid sight unseen market can be established to the benefit of the hobby via third party grading.
Throw a new 100 pt. grading scale into the mix, and I am gone for good. I can appreciate a nice coin as much, or more raw as in a sealed plastic slab. Any serious collector can accurately describe his own coins, and we may be coming back to that.
I knew it would happen.
A coin that can be traded "sight unseen" is probably not a coin an advanced collector would be interested in owning, even at a "bargain" price according to a "sheet"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
A coin that can be traded "sight unseen" is probably not a coin an advanced collector would be interested in owning, even at a "bargain" price according to a "sheet"
That was the original premise, however.
I knew it would happen.
If 100 points becomes the new grading standard scale. I'm out, cashing in for good, keeping my NO PROBLEM RAW coins and some foreign early silver a much under appreciated area of numismatics. That's that. I mean it. I've lived through, raw to black and white photos to color photos to different size holders to colors of inserts having a bearing on sale ability. This idea will be enough for me. It's probable the plus signs and what not grading standards that has me buying key date EF - AU coins now as it is.
Very cool guide. I am glad I found this. Toast!
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A couple of points:
If grading remains an opinion, increasing the gradients for uncirculated coinage from 10 to 40 makes the inconsistency even greater, and, to that extent, less trustworthy. If the change were accompanied by specific and concretely-defined convention supplemented, say, by computerized verification of some sort, the change may be easier to swallow.
If other major markets are on a 100-point scale, there then does exist some aesthetic rationale to join the rest of the world. Like the metric system, though, it's hard to make the initial jolted shift from the familiar to the unfamiliar. People like me and Dimeman who are used to the old system will balk, but we're the last generation that will.
As far as re-submissions are concerned, I definitely would not go through the cost and turmoil of sending my coins back through. I'd still buy based on how the coin looked and appealed to me, and would sell with the grades they already have (presuming they were reasonably accurate under the old system. It might be a windfall for the grading service over time, but I expect most folks would be like me, and leave it to future owners to decide if they want their new coin to be in a "modern" holder. After all, just because there's a 100-point scale doesn't mean the coins graded under the 70-point scale don't possess the authentication, certification and quality commentary that people want, already present.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
100 points using all 100 points is cutting things WAY too fine. A five point spread between grades MIGHT work IF the 70 point system wasn't so firmly entrenched. That would actually end in a more abbreviated scale than what's in use now. The Mint state grades are too finely cut as it is-truthfully, I don't think anyone can CONSISTENTLY tell the difference between a 68+, 69, and 70. I don't think it's humanly possible.
They wouldn't just lose us they would also lose the dealers that we buy from. This whole hobby is driven by the collector.
If the tpgs go to the 100 point scale it would be a golden opertunity for a new grading company. And from what I've herd here, there are a few availed key players capeible of doing just that. I personally stopped the registry game when the plus grading came along. It's fairly the same as a 100 point system anyway. Going to 100 point grading scale would most likely be the nail in the coffin and a huge loss of steet cred for the tpgs. They should rember all they are selling is their credibility
Martin
it adds nothing that doesn't already exist. It's pointless
The more we complicate the system used to communicate the grade of a coin, the worse things will get. I'm not saying that we can't make changes to it, but adding numbers and plusses and stars and smiley faces doesn't serve to clarify things.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
If it happens, I likely still collect coins. I just love them too much. It’s engrained now like a bad habit. As much as I loath the thought of the learning curve.
Like when an update comes on my phone, or a new phone, computer or program. Or when they rearrange the grocery store!! Ech! Just gotta roll with it.
Maybe every grading thread will end with CAC
How can CAC fit into this 100 point system?
Take MS65 and MS65+ as the examples. One maps onto 90 and the other maps into 91. After regrade, A coins and B coins are 91 and C coins will be 90. In this case, most 91 will get a bean and any 90 with a bean is a crack out candidate
Why not throw gasoline on the fire? It's not like the coin market is already in a state of decline... oh wait...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The 70 point scale has been around for decades and has worked reasonably well within the human capacity to evaluate a coin. Does anyone seriously think that a 100 point scale will eliminate all of the controversies concerning coins being miss graded, grade inflation, grade guarantees, etc?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No. The only real way to fix it is to stabilize standards and start aggressive buyback campaigns to purge the grade inflated dreck. This will never happen obviously.
Do you really think standards will be more stable just because they go to a 100 point scale?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
...Don’t get too depressed as it’s most likely that all 4 of them would have voted for this new hundred-point system
I was agreeing with you. A 100 point scale would just be another gimmick/ploy to be exploited by the services.
Millions and Million of dollars have been removed for grading purposes. Now what, submit all the graded coins for regrades taking millions out of the coin hobbie to support a wim of a new system. Another revenue generating source for the grading companies. If the collector community allow this they deserve what they get. I would not support another source of grading. CAC, what Joke !! If you can't depend on a grading company to get it right then why waste time spending money to have your coins graded only to waste more money to have the same coin graded again, now another way to raise more revenue.. When does it stop !!! I VOTE NO !!!!!
Spinal Tap - "These go to 11."
Don't forget that stickers are trolls.
They take the professional opinion of the TPG and dissect it for their own agenda.