The Mint has published intent of updating the precious metals schedule.
As a tease, they published this portion of it. The PM table will be updated after the intent to publish has been published for a bit. (No really, that's how it works.)
If Palladium spot is $900 to $949.99 (which it would be this week, as per usual PM rules), then the price will be $1,337.50, or about a $425 premium over spot. That's about 46%.
Eeeek.
Edit to say: $1337.50 is based on today's spot. The price can change along with average London closings before it goes on sale... And palladium has been trending up.
@jclovescoins said:
From mint and then hope to sell for $300+/coin over mint price
If you buy from the mint dont tell them you bought more than 1 cause the limit is 1. Good luck
The Mint doesn't care. It's one per address. You can send them to home, to work, to relative, to friends. You just need 5 email addresses and 5 shipping addresses.
I've always found it odd that they don't match the shipping address to the billing address to weed this out.
The Mint has updated it's PM tables. The palladium proof will jump in $50 increments. The three most relevant:
If palladium average is $850.00 to $899.99, the price will be $1,287.50.
If palladium average is $900.00 to $949.99, the price will be $1,337.50.
If palladium average is $950.00 to $999.99, the price will be $1,387.50.
This week's average would fall in the $900-$950 range. There will be a possible price adjustment next Wednesday, the day before the coin goes on sale.
Can anyone confirm 100% when the Mint starts to calculate their weekly numbers? Is it Wed 12PM thru Wed 12PM? (that's my assumption)
With such a wide bid/ask spread, this thing can fluctuate $100s in a week...
@nurmaler said:
Can anyone confirm 100% when the Mint starts to calculate their weekly numbers? Is it Wed 12PM thru Wed 12PM? (that's my assumption)
With such a wide bid/ask spread, this thing can fluctuate $100s in a week...
I always assumed it was Sunday to Sunday which is what they use for the sales numbers.
@nurmaler said:
Can anyone confirm 100% when the Mint starts to calculate their weekly numbers? Is it Wed 12PM thru Wed 12PM? (that's my assumption)
With such a wide bid/ask spread, this thing can fluctuate $100s in a week...
I always assumed it was Sunday to Sunday which is what they use for the sales numbers.
@nurmaler said:
Can anyone confirm 100% when the Mint starts to calculate their weekly numbers? Is it Wed 12PM thru Wed 12PM? (that's my assumption)
With such a wide bid/ask spread, this thing can fluctuate $100s in a week...
I always assumed it was Sunday to Sunday which is what they use for the sales numbers.
then why update on Wednesdays?
Have a meeting? Do the math? Get signatures on the number? I don't know. Just seems like if your sales week (data week) ran Sunday to Sunday, so would your PM week. As I said, I've always assumed that. I don't actually know it.
PM prices for new items is usually posted on their respective Mint pages the day before sales commence. In this case the price will be shown on Wednesday 9/5 with sales starting @ noon, Thursday 9/6.
@Kudbegud said:
PM prices for new items is usually posted on their respective Mint pages the day before sales commence. In this case the price will be shown on Wednesday 9/5 with sales starting @ noon, Thursday 9/6.
I don't know about the price showing up a day prior in all cases, but yes, prices show up, as well as get updated, each Wednesday. My question was how that (Wednesday's) price gets calculated. Is it the average of the weeks prior - from Wednesday to Wednesday, or Sunday to Sunday or something else...?
(From the Mint's site - "Pricing for precious metal numismatic products (e.g., palladium, platinum, 24-k gold, 22-k gold) varies by the average cost of the underlying metal. We use our pricing range table the week prior to sale in order to determine the product's price. If the average weekly price of the precious metal moves up or down into another cost range, the price of the product will also go up or down, respectively, by a fixed amount. You’ll find detailed pricing instructions here. ")
That's because government employees aren't cheap. Lot of extra "bennies" that still need paid out (bloated and overpaid management, retirement, time off, health, etc). They find excuses to say they NEED huge profit margins.
@Bochiman said:
That's because government employees aren't cheap. Lot of extra "bennies" that still need paid out (bloated and overpaid management, retirement, time off, health, etc). They find excuses to say they NEED huge profit margins.
This is ridiculously short-sighted and narrow-minded. Why are you blaming the little guy for making a living
What is the cost of tooling for a short run of 15,000 coins? What is the cost of a short run of planchets? Etc. You've got a lot of fixed costs distributed over a very few coins. Incremental costs (salary) are probably minimal since those costs are largely paid for by the billion coin runs of coins for commerce.
Since you seem to always have all the answers and argue with everyone else if you don't like the answer, why don't YOU tell us all the costs and how it all works out.
Btw....never said "tooling" wasn't a factor, but a report that someone posted a few years back mentioned employee cost as a reason for the spread. They aren't cheap (I was a government employee at one time and saw how a lot of was.....have you ever been or are you just making things up again?)
So, please, feel free to give us FACTS on what you KNOW on how all the costs work out. Please do. Impress us!
@Bochiman said:
Since you seem to always have all the answers and argue with everyone else if you don't like the answer, why don't YOU tell us all the costs and how it all works out.
Btw....never said "tooling" wasn't a factor, but a report that someone posted a few years back mentioned employee cost as a reason for the spread. They aren't cheap (I was a government employee at one time and saw how a lot of was.....have you ever been or are you just making things up again?)
So, please, feel free to give us FACTS on what you KNOW on how all the costs work out. Please do. Impress us!
I don't have the exact number since the mint doesn't break out costs that way. But a new design and hub is a 7 figure expense. I don't know what the cost amortization horizon is for those costs for a continuing series, but we are at 25,000 for this design. It's $50 to $100 per coin over that run.
Sure prep due to polishing is higher. Look at the cost of proof sets relative to mint sets. And proof sets, even in runs of half a million LOSE money.
Some of those costs are labor, but these are the same people who make billions of coins cheaply. They make silver eagles at only a buck or so over bullion cost. They make gold eagles at only a few bucks over melt.
Clearly, it is not their salaries that are driving the price. While I wish could put exact numbers on it. Relative pricing of Mint offerings, some of which still lose money suggests it is process driven.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but I feltthe need to stand up for the little guy. The same little guy who makes annual proof sets for $30 while drawing the same salaryas when he makes palladium eagles at $350 over spot.
Last year's annual report shows a 1.4 million loss on the palladium coins. A loss they attributed to "start up" costs - read tooling.
Of course, some ofthe proof costs are labor. Die polishing. Special handling of coins. But you could just as easily argue that is the collector's fault and the Mint should not make anything but circulating coinage.
@jmlanzaf said:
Last year's annual report shows a 1.4 million loss on the palladium coins. A loss they attributed to "start up" costs - read tooling.
Of course, some ofthe proof costs are labor. Die polishing. Special handling of coins. But you could just as easily argue that is the collector's fault and the Mint should not make anything but circulating coinage.
Proof that government can't run business too good. When the mint is the only entity in government that makes money, then you have to agree with Bochiman that there is a lot of fat to trim.
@jmlanzaf said:
Last year's annual report shows a 1.4 million loss on the palladium coins. A loss they attributed to "start up" costs - read tooling.
Of course, some ofthe proof costs are labor. Die polishing. Special handling of coins. But you could just as easily argue that is the collector's fault and the Mint should not make anything but circulating coinage.
Proof that government can't run business too good. When the mint is the only entity in government that makes money, then you have to agree with Bochiman that there is a lot of fat to trim.
Actually, what the Mint should stop doing is making numismatic coins. They lose money on them.
Personally, I'm a libertarian bordering on an anarchist. I would cut just about everything, including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
Special orders are expensive. They invariably lose money. From a taxpayer standpoint, the Mint should never issue anything except business strikes. The Mint should minimize design changes (because of tooling costs). The Mint should not be making Palladium coins or probably Platinum either. The Mint should not make annual coins sets or commemoratives of any kind. BUT, it ain't the poor shlub making $20-$25 per hour that is the problem.
@Bochiman said:
That's because government employees aren't cheap. Lot of extra "bennies" that still need paid out (bloated and overpaid management, retirement, time off, health, etc). They find excuses to say they NEED huge profit margins.
@Bochiman said:
Since you seem to always have all the answers and argue with everyone else if you don't like the answer, why don't YOU tell us all the costs and how it all works out.
Btw....never said "tooling" wasn't a factor, but a report that someone posted a few years back mentioned employee cost as a reason for the spread. They aren't cheap (I was a government employee at one time and saw how a lot of was.....have you ever been or are you just making things up again?)
So, please, feel free to give us FACTS on what you KNOW on how all the costs work out. Please do. Impress us!
I don't have the exact number since the mint doesn't break out costs that way. But a new design and hub is a 7 figure expense. I don't know what the cost amortization horizon is for those costs for a continuing series, but we are at 25,000 for this design. It's $50 to $100 per coin over that run.
Sure prep due to polishing is higher. Look at the cost of proof sets relative to mint sets. And proof sets, even in runs of half a million LOSE money.
Some of those costs are labor, but these are the same people who make billions of coins cheaply. They make silver eagles at only a buck or so over bullion cost. They make gold eagles at only a few bucks over melt.
Clearly, it is not their salaries that are driving the price. While I wish could put exact numbers on it. Relative pricing of Mint offerings, some of which still lose money suggests it is process driven.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but I feltthe need to stand up for the little guy. The same little guy who makes annual proof sets for $30 while drawing the same salaryas when he makes palladium eagles at $350 over spot.
Nope, the reason you're wrong, is they Mint did this last year. This is not a new design.
They were able to source 15K blanks last year, there's no reason to think they couldn't do it this year. All the striking problems and pressures were already figured out for last year's run.
The design is already in the computer, and they computer cuts dies these days. The striking process is pretty much automated today as well.
The packaging they're using is standard PM packaging, used from ASE's to APE and AGE's. If you somehow think 15K is a short run, then you'd have to consider the platinum and gold runs minscule, yes?
So the short run/setup thing doesn't float. If they could produce the bullion version for about $100-$125 over spot, there's no reason they needed to go $425 over spot for the proof version. Yes, the dies need more attention, but we're still looking at over $4M over the bullion run last year. That'd cover a lot of polished dies and packaging...
@Bochiman said:
Since you seem to always have all the answers and argue with everyone else if you don't like the answer, why don't YOU tell us all the costs and how it all works out.
Btw....never said "tooling" wasn't a factor, but a report that someone posted a few years back mentioned employee cost as a reason for the spread. They aren't cheap (I was a government employee at one time and saw how a lot of was.....have you ever been or are you just making things up again?)
So, please, feel free to give us FACTS on what you KNOW on how all the costs work out. Please do. Impress us!
I don't have the exact number since the mint doesn't break out costs that way. But a new design and hub is a 7 figure expense. I don't know what the cost amortization horizon is for those costs for a continuing series, but we are at 25,000 for this design. It's $50 to $100 per coin over that run.
Sure prep due to polishing is higher. Look at the cost of proof sets relative to mint sets. And proof sets, even in runs of half a million LOSE money.
Some of those costs are labor, but these are the same people who make billions of coins cheaply. They make silver eagles at only a buck or so over bullion cost. They make gold eagles at only a few bucks over melt.
Clearly, it is not their salaries that are driving the price. While I wish could put exact numbers on it. Relative pricing of Mint offerings, some of which still lose money suggests it is process driven.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but I feltthe need to stand up for the little guy. The same little guy who makes annual proof sets for $30 while drawing the same salaryas when he makes palladium eagles at $350 over spot.
Daniel Carr must lose millions with all of his short run coins he makes.
@jmlanzaf said:
Last year's annual report shows a 1.4 million loss on the palladium coins. A loss they attributed to "start up" costs - read tooling.
Of course, some ofthe proof costs are labor. Die polishing. Special handling of coins. But you could just as easily argue that is the collector's fault and the Mint should not make anything but circulating coinage.
Proof that government can't run business too good. When the mint is the only entity in government that makes money, then you have to agree with Bochiman that there is a lot of fat to trim.
Actually, what the Mint should stop doing is making numismatic coins. They lose money on them.
Personally, I'm a libertarian bordering on an anarchist. I would cut just about everything, including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
Special orders are expensive. They invariably lose money. From a taxpayer standpoint, the Mint should never issue anything except business strikes. The Mint should minimize design changes (because of tooling costs). The Mint should not be making Palladium coins or probably Platinum either. The Mint should not make annual coins sets or commemoratives of any kind. BUT, it ain't the poor shlub making $20-$25 per hour that is the problem.
And again, you are blaming the Mint for what is clearly the actions of Congress...
From Public Law 111–303:
‘(5) QUALITY.—The Secretary may issue the coins described
in paragraph (1) in both proof and uncirculated versions, except
that, should the Secretary determine that it is appropriate
to issue proof or uncirculated versions of such coin, the Sec-
retary shall, to the greatest extent possible, ensure that the
surface treatment of each year’s proof or uncirculated version
differs in some material way from that of the preceding year.
including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
Special orders are expensive. They invariably lose money. From a taxpayer standpoint, the Mint should never issue anything except business strikes. The Mint should minimize design changes (because of tooling costs). The Mint should not be making Palladium coins or probably Platinum either. The Mint should not make annual coins sets or commemoratives of any kind. BUT, it ain't the poor shlub making $20-$25 per hour that is the problem.
And again, you are blaming the Mint for what is clearly the actions of Congress...
From Public Law 111–303:
I'm not blaming the Mint, I'm blaming the government.
The one person I'm NOT blaming is the line worker.
I am recommending you all sleep in when this goes on sale, take a holiday and avoid the high premium. Specially those unhappy with our government.
From CNBC:
Platinum lost 0.4 percent at $793.20, while palladium gained 0.3 percent to $968.30 after hitting its highest since June 19 at $983.75.
The premium of palladium over platinum has increased to about $170 per ounce, the highest since March 2001.
"It is clearly dawning on market participants that the global platinum market is amply supplied this year... By contrast, the global palladium market is in deficit," Commerzbank said in a note.
I wonder why these 2017 palladiums didn't flop like the 2016 Weinman Mercury Gold? These were one-offs also. Maybe the 15K being controlled by a few bullion dealers is one of the reasons.
Guess we will know next week what the demand will be even if it is convolated by the dealers also.
Some of those costs are labor, but these are the same people who make billions of coins cheaply. They make silver eagles at only a buck or so over bullion cost. They make gold eagles at only a few bucks over melt.
Clearly, it is not their salaries that are driving the price. While I wish could put exact numbers on it. Relative pricing of Mint offerings, some of which still lose money suggests it is process driven.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but I feltthe need to stand up for the little guy. The same little guy who makes annual proof sets for $30 while drawing the same salaryas when he makes palladium eagles at $350 over spot.
Daniel Carr must lose millions with all of his short run coins he makes.
Look at his prices. When he's charging $100+ for a "silver dollar", it makes the Mint look cheap. Not that people don't like his stuff. And I'm NOT suggesting he's overpriced. But he could not "copy" Silver Eagles and issue them at $1.50 over spot on runs of 1000 coins or less - feel free to correct me, Mr. Carr.
Cost depends on whether you go through a modeling and/or hubbing process. My local coin club has been issuing medals for 100 years using a small local Mint. The cost of a short run (200 or under) 1.5 inch bronze medal is about $25 per coin using ONE new die and a standard reverse on a $5 planchet. Die prep cost is about $2000 for a single die that is cut directly into the metal. No hubbing. No artist. Hiring an artist to make a plaster model at least doubles the cost. And these are BU coins without special handling like the proofs. Making a new reverse die would double the cost to $50 per coin on the short run.
I should also point out that these costs are kept low by the local Mint doing us a favor and squeezing in the very short run. They aren't trying to stay in business based on our business. They do runs of tens of thousands of medals as their main enterprise.
And these medals go into a stock plastic snap-together case and are handed out at our meeting. There is no special packaging, artwork, paperwork, or shipping involved. We pick them up directly at the local Mint.
Call a local metal shop and ask them to quote the price for 100 (or 1000) custom widgets. And those aren't struck on a coin press from hardened dies - probably.
@Bochiman said:
That's because government employees aren't cheap. Lot of extra "bennies" that still need paid out (bloated and overpaid management, retirement, time off, health, etc). They find excuses to say they NEED huge profit margins.
@Bochiman said:
Since you seem to always have all the answers and argue with everyone else if you don't like the answer, why don't YOU tell us all the costs and how it all works out.
Btw....never said "tooling" wasn't a factor, but a report that someone posted a few years back mentioned employee cost as a reason for the spread. They aren't cheap (I was a government employee at one time and saw how a lot of was.....have you ever been or are you just making things up again?)
They were able to source 15K blanks last year, there's no reason to think they couldn't do it this year. All the striking problems and pressures were already figured out for last year's run.
The design is already in the computer, and they computer cuts dies these days. The striking process is pretty much automated today as well.
The packaging they're using is standard PM packaging, used from ASE's to APE and AGE's. If you somehow think 15K is a short run, then you'd have to consider the platinum and gold runs minscule, yes?
So the short run/setup thing doesn't float. If they could produce the bullion version for about $100-$125 over spot, there's no reason they needed to go $425 over spot for the proof version. Yes, the dies need more attention, but we're still looking at over $4M over the bullion run last year. That'd cover a lot of polished dies and packaging...
Hard to say that I'm "wrong" since I mentioned about half-a-dozen price inputs including polishing dies. And if I'm "wrong" what are you saying is "right"? That the $425 over spot is pure profit? One look at their annual report proves that's not true. That the $425 over spot goes to those (apparently) way overpaid Mint workers?
My RIGHT point is that all of these things are price drivers NOT simply the price of paying Mint workers.
@Gluggo said:
OMG only 1? What about the big boys they want to buy mucho!
Respectfully, you are comparing apples to bunny rabbits.
15,000 palladium coins with 5,000 hard core collectors is far worse than 200,000 proof sets with 200,000 collectors.
Funny analogy.
Collectors of the palladium could have bought for the novelty last year. Those willing to invest annually in a series with the appeal of palladium vs. gold should be relatively few and far between.
As far as the SF RP release, there's a heck of a lot more collectors who'll pick these up relatively cheap in the after market. Reverse proofs sell well as sets and individually...especially with the Block Island spec. now.
@Gluggo said:
OMG only 1? What about the big boys they want to buy mucho!
Respectfully, you are comparing apples to bunny rabbits.
15,000 palladium coins with 5,000 hard core collectors is far worse than 200,000 proof sets with 200,000 collectors.
Funny analogy.
Collectors of the palladium could have bought for the novelty last year. Those willing to invest annually in a series with the appeal of palladium vs. gold should be relatively few and far between.
As far as the SF RP release, there's a heck of a lot more collectors who'll pick these up relatively cheap in the after market. Reverse proofs sell well as sets and individually...especially with the Block Island spec. now.
I completely agree. I remember when the Platinum coins started and were popular. Then, the mintages (sales) fell off a cliff. Even now, a lot of the fractional proofs with mintages under 10,000 are basically bullion. And those coins are in the $100 range not the $1000 range.
US Mint workers....interesting. I have nothing against any of them, but what I am talking about for "bloat" isn't the line worker. It's the overpaid, numerous, "management" types. It's also a lot of the federal benefits that are "given". Some are earned and some, imho, are unrealistic for the work done.
Current Glassdoor listings have 6 positions at US Mint:
Marketing Specialist: $91,000-$115,000
Financial Manager: $91,000-$100,000
Worker: $61,000-$67,000
Project Manager: $101,000-$110,000
(Source: Glassdoor.com 8/30/2018)
The above salaries aren't "extravagant" to the point that they break the bank, but they show that they do well and aren't "poor little workers scraping to get buy or be on the street" type salaries. Now, at almost 1600 employees (I have seen numbers between ~1600-1700), and knowing that there is going to be management bloat, yeah, they could stand trimming things. And, they have all the government bloat when it comes to all their bennies (past and present) that have to be paid for.
There is a lot that could be streamlined, imho, that usually isn't....in a government shop. Big difference in how a private shop, that has to make ends meet or go out of business, handles things versus a government shop.
That's all I'm going to say on it as it really doesn't matter. People either believe that a 30-50% profit is "needed" on an individual item, priced in the 3-4 figures, or they don't. As to what the mint spends to make something happen....maybe there are better/more efficient ways to do it as well....
@VanHalen said:
What is the prediction for a sell-out time? How long did they last in 2017?
They were not for sell on the mint website, so there is nothing to compare it to. I predict 2 hour sellout. I think it will be hot, but one per person will make it harder. If they have to lift the limit because it is not a quick sellout, I think it sells out very quickly after that.
@Bochiman said:
US Mint workers....interesting. I have nothing against any of them, but what I am talking about for "bloat" isn't the line worker. It's the overpaid, numerous, "management" types. It's also a lot of the federal benefits that are "given". Some are earned and some, imho, are unrealistic for the work done.
Current Glassdoor listings have 6 positions at US Mint:
Marketing Specialist: $91,000-$115,000
Financial Manager: $91,000-$100,000
Worker: $61,000-$67,000
Project Manager: $101,000-$110,000
(Source: Glassdoor.com 8/30/2018)
The above salaries aren't "extravagant" to the point that they break the bank, but they show that they do well and aren't "poor little workers scraping to get buy or be on the street" type salaries. Now, at almost 1600 employees (I have seen numbers between ~1600-1700), and knowing that there is going to be management bloat, yeah, they could stand trimming things. And, they have all the government bloat when it comes to all their bennies (past and present) that have to be paid for.
There is a lot that could be streamlined, imho, that usually isn't....in a government shop. Big difference in how a private shop, that has to make ends meet or go out of business, handles things versus a government shop.
That's all I'm going to say on it as it really doesn't matter. People either believe that a 30-50% profit is "needed" on an individual item, priced in the 3-4 figures, or they don't. As to what the mint spends to make something happen....maybe there are better/more efficient ways to do it as well....
Actually, the one thing they do spell out in the annual report is administrative costs. Take a look if you are really interested. I will say no more.
@jmlanzaf said:
including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
Special orders are expensive. They invariably lose money. From a taxpayer standpoint, the Mint should never issue anything except business strikes. The Mint should minimize design changes (because of tooling costs). The Mint should not be making Palladium coins or probably Platinum either. The Mint should not make annual coins sets or commemoratives of any kind. BUT, it ain't the poor shlub making $20-$25 per hour that is the problem.
And again, you are blaming the Mint for what is clearly the actions of Congress...
From Public Law 111–303:
I'm not blaming the Mint, I'm blaming the government.
The one person I'm NOT blaming is the line worker.
Actually, what the Mint should stop doing is making numismatic coins. They lose money on them.
Personally, I'm a libertarian bordering on an anarchist. I would cut just about everything, including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
Special orders are expensive. They invariably lose money. From a taxpayer standpoint, the Mint should never issue anything except business strikes. The Mint should minimize design changes (because of tooling costs). The Mint should not be making Palladium coins or probably Platinum either. The Mint should not make annual coins sets or commemoratives of any kind. BUT, it ain't the poor shlub making $20-$25 per hour that is the problem.
Actually, what the Mint should stop doing is making numismatic coins. They lose money on them.
Personally, I'm a libertarian bordering on an anarchist. I would cut just about everything, including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
Special orders are expensive. They invariably lose money. From a taxpayer standpoint, the Mint should never issue anything except business strikes. The Mint should minimize design changes (because of tooling costs). The Mint should not be making Palladium coins or probably Platinum either. The Mint should not make annual coins sets or commemoratives of any kind. BUT, it ain't the poor shlub making $20-$25 per hour that is the problem.
Really? Not blaming the Mint?
You should really read the things you post..,.
YOU should really read the things that I post.
NOT BLAMING THE MINT!
The U.S. Army should not be in the business of nation building
That statement is true. IMHO. It doesn't really matter that the Army doesn't choose its mission, just like the Mint doesn't choose it.
THE U.S. MINT SHOULD NOT BE IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING NUMISMATIC COINS
An observation, not an accusation. If you prefer to say it the other way - The U.S. Mint should not be told to make numismatic coins. Fine. It does NOT change the meaning or the sentiment.
Comments
Up again today $10 to $946/$956
Going to try to get 5...think they will be going for $300/coin over mint price once sold out.
Are you talking on EBay or the like, MCM APMEX, etc, or 5 directly from the Mint?
From mint and then hope to sell for $300+/coin over mint price
If you buy from the mint dont tell them you bought more than 1 cause the limit is 1. Good luck
The Mint has published intent of updating the precious metals schedule.
As a tease, they published this portion of it. The PM table will be updated after the intent to publish has been published for a bit. (No really, that's how it works.)
If Palladium spot is $900 to $949.99 (which it would be this week, as per usual PM rules), then the price will be $1,337.50, or about a $425 premium over spot. That's about 46%.
Eeeek.
Edit to say: $1337.50 is based on today's spot. The price can change along with average London closings before it goes on sale... And palladium has been trending up.
Holy cow that's a big premium! I still want as many as I can get though, lol
I look forward to buying these for $900 in a couple of years.
The Mint doesn't care. It's one per address. You can send them to home, to work, to relative, to friends. You just need 5 email addresses and 5 shipping addresses.
I've always found it odd that they don't match the shipping address to the billing address to weed this out.
Pricing update:
The Mint has updated it's PM tables. The palladium proof will jump in $50 increments. The three most relevant:
If palladium average is $850.00 to $899.99, the price will be $1,287.50.
If palladium average is $900.00 to $949.99, the price will be $1,337.50.
If palladium average is $950.00 to $999.99, the price will be $1,387.50.
This week's average would fall in the $900-$950 range. There will be a possible price adjustment next Wednesday, the day before the coin goes on sale.
Tweekers
HE>I
Would be $1387.50 each based on today's Palladium price.
Current price is $957/$967 bid/ask up $21 from yesterday
Can anyone confirm 100% when the Mint starts to calculate their weekly numbers? Is it Wed 12PM thru Wed 12PM? (that's my assumption)
With such a wide bid/ask spread, this thing can fluctuate $100s in a week...
I always assumed it was Sunday to Sunday which is what they use for the sales numbers.
then why update on Wednesdays?
Have a meeting? Do the math? Get signatures on the number? I don't know. Just seems like if your sales week (data week) ran Sunday to Sunday, so would your PM week. As I said, I've always assumed that. I don't actually know it.
PM prices for new items is usually posted on their respective Mint pages the day before sales commence. In this case the price will be shown on Wednesday 9/5 with sales starting @ noon, Thursday 9/6.
I don't know about the price showing up a day prior in all cases, but yes, prices show up, as well as get updated, each Wednesday. My question was how that (Wednesday's) price gets calculated. Is it the average of the weeks prior - from Wednesday to Wednesday, or Sunday to Sunday or something else...?
(From the Mint's site - "Pricing for precious metal numismatic products (e.g., palladium, platinum, 24-k gold, 22-k gold) varies by the average cost of the underlying metal. We use our pricing range table the week prior to sale in order to determine the product's price. If the average weekly price of the precious metal moves up or down into another cost range, the price of the product will also go up or down, respectively, by a fixed amount. You’ll find detailed pricing instructions here. ")
The price is calculated from the average of London Closings from Thursday to Wednesday. Thus, the price get's updated on Wednesday.
Whether or not the price changes is according to the chart found on the precious metals page.
I can't blame the Mint for wanting to make a profit, but their spread is pretty high.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
That's because government employees aren't cheap. Lot of extra "bennies" that still need paid out (bloated and overpaid management, retirement, time off, health, etc). They find excuses to say they NEED huge profit margins.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
This is ridiculously short-sighted and narrow-minded. Why are you blaming the little guy for making a living
What is the cost of tooling for a short run of 15,000 coins? What is the cost of a short run of planchets? Etc. You've got a lot of fixed costs distributed over a very few coins. Incremental costs (salary) are probably minimal since those costs are largely paid for by the billion coin runs of coins for commerce.
Since you seem to always have all the answers and argue with everyone else if you don't like the answer, why don't YOU tell us all the costs and how it all works out.
Btw....never said "tooling" wasn't a factor, but a report that someone posted a few years back mentioned employee cost as a reason for the spread. They aren't cheap (I was a government employee at one time and saw how a lot of was.....have you ever been or are you just making things up again?)
So, please, feel free to give us FACTS on what you KNOW on how all the costs work out. Please do. Impress us!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I don't have the exact number since the mint doesn't break out costs that way. But a new design and hub is a 7 figure expense. I don't know what the cost amortization horizon is for those costs for a continuing series, but we are at 25,000 for this design. It's $50 to $100 per coin over that run.
Sure prep due to polishing is higher. Look at the cost of proof sets relative to mint sets. And proof sets, even in runs of half a million LOSE money.
Some of those costs are labor, but these are the same people who make billions of coins cheaply. They make silver eagles at only a buck or so over bullion cost. They make gold eagles at only a few bucks over melt.
Clearly, it is not their salaries that are driving the price. While I wish could put exact numbers on it. Relative pricing of Mint offerings, some of which still lose money suggests it is process driven.
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but I feltthe need to stand up for the little guy. The same little guy who makes annual proof sets for $30 while drawing the same salaryas when he makes palladium eagles at $350 over spot.
Last year's annual report shows a 1.4 million loss on the palladium coins. A loss they attributed to "start up" costs - read tooling.
Of course, some ofthe proof costs are labor. Die polishing. Special handling of coins. But you could just as easily argue that is the collector's fault and the Mint should not make anything but circulating coinage.
Proof that government can't run business too good. When the mint is the only entity in government that makes money, then you have to agree with Bochiman that there is a lot of fat to trim.
HE>I
Actually, what the Mint should stop doing is making numismatic coins. They lose money on them.
Personally, I'm a libertarian bordering on an anarchist. I would cut just about everything, including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
Special orders are expensive. They invariably lose money. From a taxpayer standpoint, the Mint should never issue anything except business strikes. The Mint should minimize design changes (because of tooling costs). The Mint should not be making Palladium coins or probably Platinum either. The Mint should not make annual coins sets or commemoratives of any kind. BUT, it ain't the poor shlub making $20-$25 per hour that is the problem.
I like you guys and appreciate the perspective. I think the "hot" stuff is grossly overpriced.
HE>I
You can see them already pre-sold on Ebay with $2150 price in PCGS PR70 and a few already sold. Plenty of action to come
https://ebay.com/itm/2018-W-1-oz-Proof-Palladium-American-Eagle-PCGS-PF-70-FS/183405685669
Any of the big boys already lining up buyers?
I am waiting for an email
Nope, the reason you're wrong, is they Mint did this last year. This is not a new design.
They were able to source 15K blanks last year, there's no reason to think they couldn't do it this year. All the striking problems and pressures were already figured out for last year's run.
The design is already in the computer, and they computer cuts dies these days. The striking process is pretty much automated today as well.
The packaging they're using is standard PM packaging, used from ASE's to APE and AGE's. If you somehow think 15K is a short run, then you'd have to consider the platinum and gold runs minscule, yes?
So the short run/setup thing doesn't float. If they could produce the bullion version for about $100-$125 over spot, there's no reason they needed to go $425 over spot for the proof version. Yes, the dies need more attention, but we're still looking at over $4M over the bullion run last year. That'd cover a lot of polished dies and packaging...
Daniel Carr must lose millions with all of his short run coins he makes.
And again, you are blaming the Mint for what is clearly the actions of Congress...
From Public Law 111–303:
‘(5) QUALITY.—The Secretary may issue the coins described
in paragraph (1) in both proof and uncirculated versions, except
that, should the Secretary determine that it is appropriate
to issue proof or uncirculated versions of such coin, the Sec-
retary shall, to the greatest extent possible, ensure that the
surface treatment of each year’s proof or uncirculated version
differs in some material way from that of the preceding year.
including the military and social security. But that is quite beside the point here - in my ever humble opinion.
I'm not blaming the Mint, I'm blaming the government.
The one person I'm NOT blaming is the line worker.
I am recommending you all sleep in when this goes on sale, take a holiday and avoid the high premium. Specially those unhappy with our government.
From CNBC:
Platinum lost 0.4 percent at $793.20, while palladium gained 0.3 percent to $968.30 after hitting its highest since June 19 at $983.75.
The premium of palladium over platinum has increased to about $170 per ounce, the highest since March 2001.
"It is clearly dawning on market participants that the global platinum market is amply supplied this year... By contrast, the global palladium market is in deficit," Commerzbank said in a note.
I wonder why these 2017 palladiums didn't flop like the 2016 Weinman Mercury Gold? These were one-offs also. Maybe the 15K being controlled by a few bullion dealers is one of the reasons.
Guess we will know next week what the demand will be even if it is convolated by the dealers also.
Box of 20
in runs of half a million LOSE money.
Look at his prices. When he's charging $100+ for a "silver dollar", it makes the Mint look cheap. Not that people don't like his stuff. And I'm NOT suggesting he's overpriced. But he could not "copy" Silver Eagles and issue them at $1.50 over spot on runs of 1000 coins or less - feel free to correct me, Mr. Carr.
Cost depends on whether you go through a modeling and/or hubbing process. My local coin club has been issuing medals for 100 years using a small local Mint. The cost of a short run (200 or under) 1.5 inch bronze medal is about $25 per coin using ONE new die and a standard reverse on a $5 planchet. Die prep cost is about $2000 for a single die that is cut directly into the metal. No hubbing. No artist. Hiring an artist to make a plaster model at least doubles the cost. And these are BU coins without special handling like the proofs. Making a new reverse die would double the cost to $50 per coin on the short run.
I should also point out that these costs are kept low by the local Mint doing us a favor and squeezing in the very short run. They aren't trying to stay in business based on our business. They do runs of tens of thousands of medals as their main enterprise.
And these medals go into a stock plastic snap-together case and are handed out at our meeting. There is no special packaging, artwork, paperwork, or shipping involved. We pick them up directly at the local Mint.
Call a local metal shop and ask them to quote the price for 100 (or 1000) custom widgets. And those aren't struck on a coin press from hardened dies - probably.
Hard to say that I'm "wrong" since I mentioned about half-a-dozen price inputs including polishing dies. And if I'm "wrong" what are you saying is "right"? That the $425 over spot is pure profit? One look at their annual report proves that's not true. That the $425 over spot goes to those (apparently) way overpaid Mint workers?
My RIGHT point is that all of these things are price drivers NOT simply the price of paying Mint workers.
I like it but at $425 above spit I just can't see doing it. Since I will only be looking for a type piece maybe I should just wait a few years.
Funny analogy.
Collectors of the palladium could have bought for the novelty last year. Those willing to invest annually in a series with the appeal of palladium vs. gold should be relatively few and far between.
As far as the SF RP release, there's a heck of a lot more collectors who'll pick these up relatively cheap in the after market. Reverse proofs sell well as sets and individually...especially with the Block Island spec. now.
I completely agree. I remember when the Platinum coins started and were popular. Then, the mintages (sales) fell off a cliff. Even now, a lot of the fractional proofs with mintages under 10,000 are basically bullion. And those coins are in the $100 range not the $1000 range.
US Mint workers....interesting. I have nothing against any of them, but what I am talking about for "bloat" isn't the line worker. It's the overpaid, numerous, "management" types. It's also a lot of the federal benefits that are "given". Some are earned and some, imho, are unrealistic for the work done.
Current Glassdoor listings have 6 positions at US Mint:
Marketing Specialist: $91,000-$115,000
Financial Manager: $91,000-$100,000
Worker: $61,000-$67,000
Project Manager: $101,000-$110,000
(Source: Glassdoor.com 8/30/2018)
The above salaries aren't "extravagant" to the point that they break the bank, but they show that they do well and aren't "poor little workers scraping to get buy or be on the street" type salaries. Now, at almost 1600 employees (I have seen numbers between ~1600-1700), and knowing that there is going to be management bloat, yeah, they could stand trimming things. And, they have all the government bloat when it comes to all their bennies (past and present) that have to be paid for.
There is a lot that could be streamlined, imho, that usually isn't....in a government shop. Big difference in how a private shop, that has to make ends meet or go out of business, handles things versus a government shop.
That's all I'm going to say on it as it really doesn't matter. People either believe that a 30-50% profit is "needed" on an individual item, priced in the 3-4 figures, or they don't. As to what the mint spends to make something happen....maybe there are better/more efficient ways to do it as well....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
What is the prediction for a sell-out time? How long did they last in 2017?
They were not for sell on the mint website, so there is nothing to compare it to. I predict 2 hour sellout. I think it will be hot, but one per person will make it harder. If they have to lift the limit because it is not a quick sellout, I think it sells out very quickly after that.
Actually, the one thing they do spell out in the annual report is administrative costs. Take a look if you are really interested. I will say no more.
Here's your post:
Really? Not blaming the Mint?
You should really read the things you post..,.
YOU should really read the things that I post.
NOT BLAMING THE MINT!
The U.S. Army should not be in the business of nation building
That statement is true. IMHO. It doesn't really matter that the Army doesn't choose its mission, just like the Mint doesn't choose it.
THE U.S. MINT SHOULD NOT BE IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING NUMISMATIC COINS
An observation, not an accusation. If you prefer to say it the other way - The U.S. Mint should not be told to make numismatic coins. Fine. It does NOT change the meaning or the sentiment.
duplicate post