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1889cc PCGS 63 DMPL.... with no CAC on GC

bestdaybestday Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭✭

GC this week, has a 1899cc PCGS DMPL 63, on auction , without the CAC bean .. Is that a sign coin possibly not good enough to get the bean ?

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Comments

  • coinhackcoinhack Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭✭

    @bestday said:
    GC this week, has a 1899cc PCGS DMPL 63, on auction , without the CAC bean .. Is that a sign coin possibly not good enough to get the bean ?

    It shouldn't have been good enough to make it past the authenticators. :*>:)

    Sorry, couldn't help it.

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  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2018 1:02PM

    There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale. That said, when you compare it to the Sotheby's coin that just sold, it is easy to see why the GC coin did not get the sticker.

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    Sotheby's Coin:

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    Great Collections Coin:

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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,768 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am not looking forward to the future of opinions here from images on coins such as this.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    With all due respect, I think it is unfair to Great Collections and the consignor to post threads like this when the item is actively up for sale in an auction. I'm sure if you ask, Ian or Raeleen will give you an honest opinion.

    Anyone with enough money to buy the coin will have figured this out all by themselves. If they didn't, they need to have Laura do all their shopping.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2018 1:41PM

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    With all due respect, I think it is unfair to Great Collections and the consignor to post threads like this when the item is actively up for sale in an auction. I'm sure if you ask, Ian or Raeleen will give you an honest opinion.

    Anyone with enough money to buy the coin will have figured this out all by themselves. If they didn't, they need to have Laura do all their shopping.

    Logically speaking yes, but one of the most difficult lessons for me to learn in life was that 99% of the population acts illogically a significant percentage of the time. Any negative attention could, in theory, affect the results.

  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @mannie gray said:
    The GC coin looks to have deeper mirrors than the Sotheby's piece.
    It also looks to have a few more surface disruptions.
    So, take your pick: deeper mirrors or fewer marks.

    Not to mention that we only have auction photos. Lighting and angling can make the same coin obviously look drastically different.

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @mannie gray said:
    The GC coin looks to have deeper mirrors than the Sotheby's piece.
    It also looks to have a few more surface disruptions.
    So, take your pick: deeper mirrors or fewer marks.

    Not to mention that we only have auction photos. Lighting and angling can make the same coin obviously look drastically different.

    Yes this is true. The coins may look vastly different in hand.

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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1889-CC often comes P-L in when it is in Mint State. That is not unusual.

    As for the coin question, it all depends upon what the final price price as to whether or not it is a good deal.

    As for going 100% by photos, I've learned that you can really change the look of a coin quite a bit by moving the lighting around.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,833 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • edited June 8, 2018 2:06PM
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  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FadeToBlack said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale. That said, when you compare it to the Sotheby's coin that just sold, it is easy to see why the GC coin did not get the sticker.

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    The Sotheby's coin probably isn't DMPL by present standards and you know it... Stickers mean nothing on PL's/DMPL's in terms of the designation.

    I would need to see the coin to comment on the mirrors, but the Sotheby's coin is most certainly a low 64 in a 63's clothing. And yes, I agree, many old holders are not even PL, but I have found some that were right, so have you!

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    trueview

    Collector, occasional seller

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FadeToBlack Larry, you were not impressed with the Sotheby's images. What do you have to say about that GC image above? :)

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do agree with the 63 grade on the GC coin. I also fully agree that it should not have a CAC sticker. Here is a section from the trueview.

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  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...alls I know is i would be hella happy to own either coin...I will also add that the OGH coin looks like a high 64 CAC to me...maybe even 65 with that cheek; from that picture...now back to making $$$ so I can one day own both ;)

  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    With all due respect, I think it is unfair to Great Collections and the consignor to post threads like this when the item is actively up for sale in an auction. I'm sure if you ask, Ian or Raeleen will give you an honest opinion.

    ?

    The question was... did a pricey 50,000 coin go unsubmitted to CAC ,or was it submitted ,and then rejected by CAC ?
    Coin in public ..... open to questions in public ....

    Even Laura honestly states in her auction descriptions about coins that are up in current auctions..... that some coins were submitted to CAC .....and didn't make the CAC cut..

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,181 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2018 3:17PM

    @bestday said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    With all due respect, I think it is unfair to Great Collections and the consignor to post threads like this when the item is actively up for sale in an auction. I'm sure if you ask, Ian or Raeleen will give you an honest opinion.

    ?

    The question was... did a pricey 50,000 coin go unsubmitted to CAC ,or was it submitted ,and then rejected by CAC ?
    Coin in public ..... open to questions in public ....

    Even Laura honestly states in her auction descriptions about coins that are up in current auctions..... that some coins were submitted to CAC .....and didn't make the CAC cut..

    The implication is that the coin is overgraded, a problem coin, low end for the grade, or otherwise "not good enough." A private phone call or email could have clarified this. The auction house could give you a definitive answer as it has information that we do not. If the auction house doesn't know then there is a reason why they chose not to submit it. Draw your own conclusions.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @bestday said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    With all due respect, I think it is unfair to Great Collections and the consignor to post threads like this when the item is actively up for sale in an auction. I'm sure if you ask, Ian or Raeleen will give you an honest opinion.

    ?

    The question was... did a pricey 50,000 coin go unsubmitted to CAC ,or was it submitted ,and then rejected by CAC ?
    Coin in public ..... open to questions in public ....

    Even Laura honestly states in her auction descriptions about coins that are up in current auctions..... that some coins were submitted to CAC .....and didn't make the CAC cut..

    The implication is that the coin is overgraded, a problem coin, low end for the grade, or otherwise "not good enough." A private phone call or email could have clarified this. The auction house could give you a definitive answer as it has information that we do not. If the auction house doesn't know then there is a reason why they chose not to submit it. Draw your own conclusions.

    So what is the use of a forum if we are supposed to privately call everyone?

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  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2018 6:11PM

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @Coinstartled said:
    Coins submitted to CAC by GC are done so at the request of the consignor. Quite possible that that individual declined to have the coin sent to CAC.

    Not everyone is obsequious to the magic bean.

    Please change your image back to BANNED after such a foolish comment!

    Assume for a moment that we have this brilliantly efficient market. Forum proponents of CAC promote the thought that a coin of say $1000 or more has either received a CAC sticker or has been submitted and has not.

    Based on this suspect logic, Intelligent bidders then should be bidding no more than MS62 DMPL money...and maybe 62 PL money to be on the safe side (I don't buy the "C" grade BS.)

    62 DMPL money is $28,000-30,000. This coin is currently at $40k with the juice, meaning that at least 2 bidders have not read the playbook.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know about the DMPL, but grade wise it is no better than 61 to me. Way too many hits and deep ones at that.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2018 6:27PM

    @FadeToBlack said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale. That said, when you compare it to the Sotheby's coin that just sold, it is easy to see why the GC coin did not get the sticker.

    .
    .

    The Sotheby's coin probably isn't DMPL by present standards and you know it... Stickers mean nothing on PL's/DMPL's in terms of the designation.

    Not true--designations are considered by CAC.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The implication is that the coin is overgraded, a problem coin, low end for the grade, or otherwise "not good enough." A private phone call or email could have clarified this. The auction house could give you a definitive answer as it has information that we do not. If the auction house doesn't know then there is a reason why they chose not to submit it. Draw your own conclusions.

    So what is the use of a forum if we are supposed to privately call everyone?

    Is this even a serious question? The forums are for learning and discussing coins, which can be done without compromising someone's sale. The auction ends in 2 days. Could this not have waited a week or so? If the OP wanted a real answer rather than mere speculation from actual auction images, he could have had one and talked to someone actually holding the coin in hand. A little etiquette and consideration goes a long way; what goes around comes around.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The implication is that the coin is overgraded, a problem coin, low end for the grade, or otherwise "not good enough." A private phone call or email could have clarified this. The auction house could give you a definitive answer as it has information that we do not. If the auction house doesn't know then there is a reason why they chose not to submit it. Draw your own conclusions.

    So what is the use of a forum if we are supposed to privately call everyone?

    Is this even a serious question? The forums are for learning and discussing coins, which can be done without compromising someone's sale. The auction ends in 2 days. Could this not have waited a week or so? If the OP wanted a real answer rather than mere speculation from actual auction images, he could have had one and talked to someone actually holding the coin in hand. A little etiquette and consideration goes a long way; what goes around comes around.

    A major auction is not compromised by someone asking if they think the coin went to CAC. It most certainly did. And guess what, it is a clunker, but a rare date clunker and registry chasers with cash don't care.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @Coinstartled said:
    Coins submitted to CAC by GC are done so at the request of the consignor. Quite possible that that individual declined to have the coin sent to CAC.

    Not everyone is obsequious to the magic bean.

    Please change your image back to BANNED after such a foolish comment!

    Assume for a moment that we have this brilliantly efficient market. Forum proponents of CAC promote the thought that a coin of say $1000 or more has either received a CAC sticker or has been submitted and has not.

    Based on this suspect logic, Intelligent bidders then should be bidding no more than MS62 DMPL money...and maybe 62 PL money to be on the safe side (I don't buy the "C" grade BS.)

    62 DMPL money is $28,000-30,000. This coin is currently at $40k with the juice, meaning that at least 2 bidders have not read the playbook.

    Coin is a 63, but not a nice one, or has a problem that John saw. Stevie Wonder can see the difference between the Sotheby's coin and the GC coin. Even the CAC haters here have to admit the CAC coin is FAR superior.

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    I agree:
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  • CCDollarCCDollar Posts: 726 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cameo and Deep Cameo Proof Like are just like the Supreme Courts' ruling on pornography..."You'll know it when you see it"...

    CC

    Nickel Triumph...My Led Zepps
  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2018 6:56PM

    You agree that the coin is a 63 or you agree that it has a problem that John saw?

    Obverse of the GC looks fine for the 63 grade. Reverse is the more important image on this coin (that you failed to image.) Reverse scuff under the "o" in of, would be my concern. It is muted in the trueview but would force me to see the coin in hand before bidding aggressively.

    Based on the image of the Stacks obverse, it looks solid for the grade and JA most likely got at least the numeric grade right, though it is tough to assess the mirrors from that image. I think that Kathy nailed it regarding the lighting.

    (Note)...you seem to have time to put up a kibbitzy Stevie Wonder image to get a chuckle. Put up the reverse first so we can have a better discussion.

  • 10000lakes10000lakes Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭

    Some MS 1889 CC's can be pretty ugly and still bring strong prices.
    The GC coin doesn't look that bad compared to these recent auction results.

    This MS62 sold for $36,000 in March 2018



    This MS63 PL sold for $42,300 in Aug 2017

  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The implication is that the coin is overgraded, a problem coin, low end for the grade, or otherwise "not good enough." A private phone call or email could have clarified this. The auction house could give you a definitive answer as it has information that we do not. If the auction house doesn't know then there is a reason why they chose not to submit it. Draw your own conclusions.

    So what is the use of a forum if we are supposed to privately call everyone?

    Is this even a serious question? The forums are for learning and discussing coins, which can be done without compromising someone's sale. The auction ends in 2 days. Could this not have waited a week or so? If the OP wanted a real answer rather than mere speculation from actual auction images, he could have had one and talked to someone actually holding the coin in hand. A little etiquette and consideration goes a long way; what goes around comes around.

    Sanctimonious gets you no where... images not the issue ..... is this common ...Pricey coins in Holders without CAC stickers? .. except perhaps this CAC rejection is common and that less discussed...... is less disclosed ?
    .Once again ..Why does Laura honestly reveal some auction coins were rejected from getting the Bean.. ? Are those house coins .. or consignor coins ?

  • edited June 9, 2018 5:30AM
    This content has been removed.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,509 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OMG ... No CAC. Send it back. Where is my distress bag ?

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  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bestday said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The implication is that the coin is overgraded, a problem coin, low end for the grade, or otherwise "not good enough." A private phone call or email could have clarified this. The auction house could give you a definitive answer as it has information that we do not. If the auction house doesn't know then there is a reason why they chose not to submit it. Draw your own conclusions.

    So what is the use of a forum if we are supposed to privately call everyone?

    Is this even a serious question? The forums are for learning and discussing coins, which can be done without compromising someone's sale. The auction ends in 2 days. Could this not have waited a week or so? If the OP wanted a real answer rather than mere speculation from actual auction images, he could have had one and talked to someone actually holding the coin in hand. A little etiquette and consideration goes a long way; what goes around comes around.

    Sanctimonious gets you no where... images not the issue ..... is this common ...Pricey coins in Holders without CAC stickers? .. except perhaps this CAC rejection is common and that less discussed...... is less disclosed ?
    .Once again ..Why does Laura honestly reveal some auction coins were rejected from getting the Bean.. ? Are those house coins .. or consignor coins ?

    Neither does being inconsiderate. You know what they say about karma...

    As for Legend and its consignors, they can reveal whatever they wish. That is vastly different than a third party trashing/undermining a coin publicly in a major coin forum right before the close of an auction.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    Is it automatically assumed now, that if a high value coin does not have a CAC sticker, that it failed at CAC? That seems to be the consensus I see reading this thread. That would say that it becomes mandatory to submit coins of value or suffer the slings and arrows of ridicule when selling a non-stickered coin. Wow. Cheers, RickO

    You ain't seen nuthin yet.

  • 10000lakes10000lakes Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭

    MS DMPL 1889 CC's have a pretty low sticker rate.
    The OP coin is actually not a bad looking coin for this grade and designation.

    Only 11 coins have a CAC sticker in 63 DMPL vs 81 being graded by PCGS and NGC.
    If you want one with a sticker you will have to pay up. Probably a minimum of 10K or more with a sticker than without.
    Not everyone wants or needs a sticker on their coin to enjoy it.
    When it's your 40K being spent you get to decide how you want to spend it.
    At least it's in PCGS plastic ;)

    Total of all CAC 89-cc

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was hoping for a mini hoard of 89cc's to emerge. Still need that one.

    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions

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