First, no one should comment about the Sothebys coin unless they had seen it. I saw it. And so did EVERY major Dollar crack out dealer. The price fully confirms its value. And most of the Sothebys dollars need dips as they had developed light films. All of those coins WILL eventually grade strong with the prices realized ended up cheapish. .
The case of the GC coin, which I have not seen nor can I evaluate it via an image, the results won't be the full story. In GC the coin probably will be bought buy by more of a price conscious collector then a dealer wagging his tongue thinking upgrade. I too would be shocked if it had not been too bean world.
JA is a real harda** on DMPL's. We have submitted them coins we thought we LOCK full 8" mirror GEM coins. Only to have the reject red color come back at us-even after an appeal. He looks for 100% FULL 8" mirrors. Always check the reverse around 12:00 to see if the mirrors fade-to old timers that means the coin is NOT a full DMPL. I am NOT saying this 89CC has that-you can not tell from an image.
@Wabbit2313 said:
There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale.
I think this is an incorrect statement. It is up to a consignor to decide whether it should be sent in to CAC. There may be all kinds of reasons that he/she would decline to do so.
@FadeToBlack said:
For the record, I'm not a CAC hater at all lmao. I send them several hundred coins a year. Most of the coins in my core graded collection are stickered. For a while, I'd sell anything I owned that didn't CAC.
Doesnt mean I can't realize CACs shortfalls and eviscerate them for it... Just like PCGS or NGC.
Here's a pic of a recent batch... A bunch of $50 coins with $15 stickers ha.
I always love big fleshy hands in coin pictures. Keep 'em coming!
@Wabbit2313 said:
There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale.
I think this is an incorrect statement. It is up to a consignor to decide whether it should be sent in to CAC. There may be all kinds of reasons that he/she would decline to do so.
Ian to client. "We should send this to CAC to see if it passes. If it does, it will be worth 10K, maybe 20K more. It will cost 29 bucks to do it, plus shipping."
Client, "No, I would rather let someone else have that money, I hate money."
Please share the many other reasons someone would be as foolish as you make them sound by not wanting to send this coin to CAC?
I agree with most of some of what has been said here.
If I was the consignor and my coin was getting trashed I’d be on the phone with PCGS incessantly until the thread was deleted.
If you need a coin in a particular holder or with a sticker, best to buy it that way. Probably this coin was tried. Maybe it wasn’t. Maybe the consignor needs to sell it ASAP. Maybe someone is dumping an inheritance and needs/wants the $$ right now. You never know.
It’s hard to judge two $50k coins from photos when different lighting & techniques were used. We can all see which one looks nicer in the photos, but in-hand might be another story.
@Wabbit2313 said:
There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale.
I think this is an incorrect statement. It is up to a consignor to decide whether it should be sent in to CAC. There may be all kinds of reasons that he/she would decline to do so.
Ian to client. "We should send this to CAC to see if it passes. If it does, it will be worth 10K, maybe 20K more. It will cost 29 bucks to do it, plus shipping."
Client, "No, I would rather let someone else have that money, I hate money."
Please share the many other reasons someone would be as foolish as you make them sound by not wanting to send this coin to CAC?
Here's why I gave you a "disagree."
It is a sad day when one man has that much control over the market for better coins. As I have told you people in the past, be careful what you wish for. Even if you think you have all of your assets lined up on the right ship, if a firestorm starts in the numismatic lake, you too might perish in its flames.
It’s one thing to tout the merits of one grading service. It’s another when you downgrade everyone else’s holdings. Stick to the positive about what you have. Avoid the negative about what others have.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Wabbit2313 said:
There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale.
I think this is an incorrect statement. It is up to a consignor to decide whether it should be sent in to CAC. There may be all kinds of reasons that he/she would decline to do so.
Ian to client. "We should send this to CAC to see if it passes. If it does, it will be worth 10K, maybe 20K more. It will cost 29 bucks to do it, plus shipping."
Client, "No, I would rather let someone else have that money, I hate money."
Please share the many other reasons someone would be as foolish as you make them sound by not wanting to send this coin to CAC?
Here's why I gave you a "disagree."
It is a sad day when one man has that much control over the market for better coins. As I have told you people in the past, be careful what you wish for. Even if you think you have all of your assets lined up on the right ship, if a firestorm starts in the numismatic lake, you too might perish in its flames.
It’s one thing to tout the merits of one grading service. It’s another when you downgrade everyone else’s holdings. Stick to the positive about what you have. Avoid the negative about what others have.
Why disagree with me? I don't set the higher pricing for CAC coins, but they are worth MORE! Even you can't argue that they sell for more money. On an expensive coin, why wouldn't you want to maximize your profits if you are selling? I was going to disagree back but then remembered I am older than 3.
I am warning you that if you ruin the market for non CAC coins that you run the risk of ruining the market for everything.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@bestday said:
GC this week, has a 1899cc PCGS DMPL 63, on auction , without the CAC bean .. Is that a sign coin possibly not good enough to get the bean ?
Maybe it hasn't been sent in. Just because a slab doesn't have a CAC sticker on it, doesn't mean it wouldn't warrant one.
ROFLOL comment of the day-you don't need me to print who said it:
Here's why I gave you a "disagree."
It is a sad day when one man has that much control over the market for better coins. As I have told you people in the past, be careful what you wish for. Even if you think you have all of your assets lined up on the right ship, if a firestorm starts in the numismatic lake, you too might perish in its flames.
It’s one thing to tout the merits of one grading service. It’s another when you downgrade everyone else’s holdings. Stick to the positive about what you have. Avoid the negative about what others have.
I do want t make this clear, no one should trash this coin with out seeing it. I see nothing wrong with asking why it is not CAC or has it ever been there. There is such a huge price difference.
There is NO DOUBT that coin was sent to CAC. Every auction house sends their high value coins in because of the bump in price.
That said, I don't really understand the point of the question.
It is a PcGS 63 DMPL with no CAC. Bid accordingly. It is virtually impossible to buy a coin, sight unseen, with the expectation that it would CAC if you bought it. A 63 DMPL with no CAC is just that.
Here's another related question:
would you pay more for a 63 DMPL with no CAC that hadn't been submitted over one that had been submitted and not stickered? If so, why? On the off chance that the coin would CAC even though you haven't seen it in hand. It's a coin, not a lottery ticket.
@Wabbit2313 said:
There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale. That said, when you compare it to the Sotheby's coin that just sold, it is easy to see why the GC coin did not get the sticker.
.
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The Sotheby's coin probably isn't DMPL by present standards and you know it... Stickers mean nothing on PL's/DMPL's in terms of the designation.
Is this true? Does JA only certify the grade not the DMPL? I find that hard to believe given the price difference between a DMPL and a non-DMPL.
@specialist said:
JA is a real harda** on DMPL's. We have submitted them coins we thought we LOCK full 8" mirror GEM coins. Only to have the reject red color come back at us-even after an appeal. He looks for 100% FULL 8" mirrors. Always check the reverse around 12:00 to see if the mirrors fade-to old timers that means the coin is NOT a full DMPL. I am NOT saying this 89CC has that-you can not tell from an image.
I can't speak for all DMPL's, or DMPL's in the world you play in, but in the sub $1,000 world of "budget" coins, I've seen some very weak PL's and DMPL's stickered. I've personally submitted about a dozen DMPL's to CAC, and of them, I disagreed with 2 he stickered, and none he didn't sticker, with a sticker rate of 9/13. The problem is a lot more prevalent on PL coins, I don't think his standards for PL's measure up at all to what I consider to be a nice PL coin. Maybe that's changing, he recently didn't sticker a PL I sent in that had weak mirrors, but was probably undergraded by a full point... Here's hoping.
Then again, as I said before, different worlds. In my experience, JA is a lot harder on $1,000+ coins in general. $1,000+ coins sticker at a rate of something like 35% for me, whereas sub $1,000 coins sticker more at a rate of like 50-55%. Your perspective greatly differs from mine, so it's nice to hear what you think about the upper echelons of the market.
Last note I'll add... I like my DMPL's to be such that I can hold them about 10" away and smile, and see my teeth beaming back at me. That's a DMPL. Not some sketchy, "I think I see an 8" nonsense on a ruler. You know a DMPL when you see one, plain and simple. The subject of this post strikes me as one of those, and a lot of the anecdotal evidence points in that direction too.
Why would you submit coins to CAC that you wouldn't expect to sticker. 9/13 is an excellent rate. You have a good eye. But I've gotta believe you disagree with the 4 he didn't sticker and agree with the 9 he did sticker - otherwise why are you wasting money sending them in?
@Wabbit2313 said:
There is ZERO chance a 50K+ coin was not sent to CAC before going up for sale. That said, when you compare it to the Sotheby's coin that just sold, it is easy to see why the GC coin did not get the sticker.
.
.
The Sotheby's coin probably isn't DMPL by present standards and you know it... Stickers mean nothing on PL's/DMPL's in terms of the designation.
Is this true? Does JA only certify the grade not the DMPL? I find that hard to believe given the price difference between a DMPL and a non-DMPL.
...and will the wizard bestow a heart to the Tin Man? A decade in, many don't really understand the meaning of the two seemingly simple beans.
not the DMPL? I find that hard to believe given the price difference between a DMPL and a non-DMPL.
...and will the wizard bestow a heart to the Tin Man? A decade in, many don't really understand the meaning of the two seemingly simple beans.
I have never agreed with you more than on this. The CAC number is sometimes crazy. JA himself has said that even a gold CAC is simply an "A" grade FOR THE CURRENT GRADE. But, the market is starting to price the coins like even a green bean means automatic upgrade.
would you pay more for a 63 DMPL with no CAC that hadn't been submitted over one that had been submitted and not stickered? If so, why?
Simple: it all depends on the coin itself. Is it fresh? is it UNDERgraded? Are the mirrors 8" or 10? There are times when the answer can be yes. Sadly today, more times it is no.
Like someone said earlier here, why leave $10,000.00+ on the table as a seller? As an auction house, Ian is no dummy, I'm sure if it had not been sent, he would have suggested it. I know I send in every coin i can. If I do not offer, then I have not helped the customer max out their value.
not the DMPL? I find that hard to believe given the price difference between a DMPL and a non-DMPL.
...and will the wizard bestow a heart to the Tin Man? A decade in, many don't really understand the meaning of the two seemingly simple beans.
I have never agreed with you more than on this. The CAC number is sometimes crazy. JA himself has said that even a gold CAC is simply an "A" grade FOR THE CURRENT GRADE. But, the market is starting to price the coins like even a green bean means automatic upgrade.
Gold sticker means it would at least green sticker at the NEXT grade according to JA
What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
not the DMPL? I find that hard to believe given the price difference between a DMPL and a non-DMPL.
...and will the wizard bestow a heart to the Tin Man? A decade in, many don't really understand the meaning of the two seemingly simple beans.
I have never agreed with you more than on this. The CAC number is sometimes crazy. JA himself has said that even a gold CAC is simply an "A" grade FOR THE CURRENT GRADE. But, the market is starting to price the coins like even a green bean means automatic upgrade.
Gold sticker means it would at least green sticker at the NEXT grade according to JA
What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
mark
Yes, but it is NOT a GUARANTEE of an upgrade. And even the green CAC is starting to be interpreted as though it would upgrade. We now see 65 CAC's selling for as much or more than 66 no CAC.
not the DMPL? I find that hard to believe given the price difference between a DMPL and a non-DMPL.
...and will the wizard bestow a heart to the Tin Man? A decade in, many don't really understand the meaning of the two seemingly simple beans.
I have never agreed with you more than on this. The CAC number is sometimes crazy. JA himself has said that even a gold CAC is simply an "A" grade FOR THE CURRENT GRADE. But, the market is starting to price the coins like even a green bean means automatic upgrade.
Gold sticker means it would at least green sticker at the NEXT grade according to JA
What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
mark
Yes, but it is NOT a GUARANTEE of an upgrade. And even the green CAC is starting to be interpreted as though it would upgrade. We now see 65 CAC's selling for as much or more than 66 no CAC.
IT'S MADNESS, I TELL YA!
For sure it’s not automatic that the grading services will comply. However, you are paying for the opinion that John thinks so. The allure of the gold sticker is that it also might go two grades or higher. I would never crack a gold sticker.
Gold stickers. John told me 10 years ago or so he did it to make sure collectors knew what they had. Crack out guys hated it
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
@BillJones said:
I am warning you that if you ruin the market for non CAC coins that you run the risk of ruining the market for everything.
This is an understatement. Not only is there "risk," but a significant probability that if the non-CAC market tanks so will the CAC market. John can't buy them all at once. While CAC coins enjoy a premium (and in some cases a deserved premium), there is always a logical limit to the spread between CAC coins and non-CAC coins. You can never untether them completely, and even if you could, if a coin is not saleable without a sticker then most market participants wIth sense will exit the market and liquidity will diminish quickly for most coins regardless of sticker.
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
What I said was in jest, in response to your foolish DMPL comment above.
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
There is no other way. It is also why I would be scared of a pre prong holder coin that looked ridiculously under graded even by old standards.
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
There is no other way. It is also why I would be scared of a pre prong holder coin that looked ridiculously under graded even by old standards.
There is no reasoning with close minded individuals. Should he also drill to the center of the coin to make sure the exact metal content is right? I'll take my chances that PCGS or NGC did not slip in a rim damaged coin, in the exact spot that the slab covers, to try and fool the world, and CAC.
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
There is no other way. It is also why I would be scared of a pre prong holder coin that looked ridiculously under graded even by old standards.
There is no reasoning with close minded individuals. Should he also drill to the center of the coin to make sure the exact metal content is right? I'll take my chances that PCGS or NGC did not slip in a rim damaged coin, in the exact spot that the slab covers, to try and fool the world, and CAC.
I think he means from the old days when the gasket would cover the rims.
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
There is no other way. It is also why I would be scared of a pre prong holder coin that looked ridiculously under graded even by old standards.
There is no reasoning with close minded individuals. Should he also drill to the center of the coin to make sure the exact metal content is right? I'll take my chances that PCGS or NGC did not slip in a rim damaged coin, in the exact spot that the slab covers, to try and fool the world, and CAC.
Truth is that you don't care if the rim is compromised or not. The CAC'd coin will flip 8 or ten times before anyone makes the effort to break it out and evaluate all three sides.
Advantage of course goes to NGC and PCGS as they are examining the entire raw coin. With CAC, it is two out or three ain't bad.
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
There is no other way. It is also why I would be scared of a pre prong holder coin that looked ridiculously under graded even by old standards.
There is no reasoning with close minded individuals. Should he also drill to the center of the coin to make sure the exact metal content is right? I'll take my chances that PCGS or NGC did not slip in a rim damaged coin, in the exact spot that the slab covers, to try and fool the world, and CAC.
Truth is that you don't care if the rim is compromised or not. The CAC'd coin will flip 8 or ten times before anyone makes the effort to break it out and evaluate all three sides.
Advantage of course goes to NGC and PCGS as they are examining the entire raw coin. With CAC, it is two out or three ain't bad.
This is why I wish CAC would morph into a new grading service and do us all a favor rather than acting as an add on. He could create a separate LLC or blind trust to do the market maker thing and keep operations separate.
@bestday said:
GC this week, has a 1899cc PCGS DMPL 63, on auction , without the CAC bean .. Is that a sign coin possibly not good enough to get the bean ?
Maybe it hasn't been sent in. Just because a slab doesn't have a CAC sticker on it, doesn't mean it wouldn't warrant one.
LOL.... even my dealer friend said the GC 89cc has probably been sent in for CAC , at every change in ownership,, because of the big bump up in price with a Bean
1.) I am glad that over time I have learned to accept and appreciate the wisdom of the old-time collectors/dealers like BillJones, their perspective can be enlightening.
2.) I feel content with my collection and encouraged by the fact that the overwhelming majority of what I own is beyond what CAC seems willing to examine.
I find a striking parallel between the current conversation about CAC and the 15-20 year old conversation about the need to have every raw coin certified and encapsulated. back then the mantra was "If it's not in a holder there must be a reason" and time has shown that not to be wholly true. old time collectors weren't as enamored with TPG's as we currently are and their coins often stayed raw until their collections were sold, either by them or by their heirs. when sold by heirs the coins often were sent to a TPG or when bought raw by "one of us" it would quickly find its way into a holder.
either way, when said coins were discussed here prior to encapsulation it was always the same --- Why is it raw??
that same sentiment is now voiced with regard to CAC. apparently, to many, if a coin meets a certain value threshold it needs to sent to CAC. this isn't unreasonable but it is also presumes quite a bit. the downside to me is that as BillJones has said, it has tended to alter the dynamics of the Hobby as well as the pricing structure for many series'. the CAC phenomenon has "coerced" quite a number of collectors to submit to CAC just as 15-20 years ago they felt the need to send coins for encapsulation.
some of that is driven by value enhancement, without a doubt, but some is driven by other factors which have nothing to do with money. for my own part I bought into the "encapsulation" model for a variety of reasons, among them added value, uniformity in appearance, authentication, protection and most recently for the addition of the high quality pictures that the TPG's make available.
when BillJones says plainly that a rising tide lifts all boats and that the falling tide takes everything down what he says should at least be considered.
@bestday said:
GC this week, has a 1899cc PCGS DMPL 63, on auction , without the CAC bean .. Is that a sign coin possibly not good enough to get the bean ?
Maybe it hasn't been sent in. Just because a slab doesn't have a CAC sticker on it, doesn't mean it wouldn't warrant one.
LOL.... even my dealer friend said the GC 89cc has probably been sent in for CAC , at every change in ownership,, because of the big bump up in price with a Bean
Only one person knows for sure, and he ain't talking. Never ASSuME.
On your site I see 753 CAC coins for sale and more than 25000 sold with CAC stickers. If this one was not sent in, I would love to hear the reason.
Coin was minted 129 years ago in Carson City Nevada. It has survived, gunfights, bar brawls, long train rides, disenfranchised Indian warriors and roving brigands.
Here we are in June of 2018 with a single question...did John Albanese see it?
One guy, a single dream maker who either blesses it or does not.
This does not bode well for the future of the hobby.
On your site I see 753 CAC coins for sale and more than 25000 sold with CAC stickers. If this one was not sent in, I would love to hear the reason.
GC will tell you if they (GC) have sent the coin to CAC. They will not provide you with TPG history. Ian in general recommends that every coin be sent to CAC. But it’s up to the owner to decide for themselves. So theoretically the owner could have previously submitted this coin to CAC and if you asked Ian about the coins history he would tell you that GC hadn’t submitted the coin.
On your site I see 753 CAC coins for sale and more than 25000 sold with CAC stickers. If this one was not sent in, I would love to hear the reason.
Coin was minted 129 years ago in Carson City Nevada. It has survived, gunfights, bar brawls, long train rides, disenfranchised Indian warriors and roving brigands.
Here we are in June of 2018 with a single question...did John Albanese see it?
One guy, a single dream maker who either blesses it or does not.
This does not bode well for the future of the hobby.
An MS63, there is no chance it had the life above. It lived in solitary confinement.
@Coinstartled said:
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
There is no other way. It is also why I would be scared of a pre prong holder coin that looked ridiculously under graded even by old standards.
There is no reasoning with close minded individuals. Should he also drill to the center of the coin to make sure the exact metal content is right? I'll take my chances that PCGS or NGC did not slip in a rim damaged coin, in the exact spot that the slab covers, to try and fool the world, and CAC.
Since you won't take my word for it, James Garcia (formerly of Scotsman) had an interesting post on the NGC forums some time ago about an OGH bust coin that he was burned on. The coin was silently netgraded for rim damage and not visible until he cracked it.
Edited: It may also have had other issues. In any event, @coinstartled is right that holders can hide things and CAC (and everyone else for that matter) can only go based on what isn't obscured by the plastic. Many coins that look super PQ at first have subtle issues that caused a netgrade. It is one of the reasons I hate the market grading concept and think all issues should be noted on the slab rather than silently sweeping it under the rug with a netgrade.
Comments
First, no one should comment about the Sothebys coin unless they had seen it. I saw it. And so did EVERY major Dollar crack out dealer. The price fully confirms its value. And most of the Sothebys dollars need dips as they had developed light films. All of those coins WILL eventually grade strong with the prices realized ended up cheapish. .
The case of the GC coin, which I have not seen nor can I evaluate it via an image, the results won't be the full story. In GC the coin probably will be bought buy by more of a price conscious collector then a dealer wagging his tongue thinking upgrade. I too would be shocked if it had not been too bean world.
JA is a real harda** on DMPL's. We have submitted them coins we thought we LOCK full 8" mirror GEM coins. Only to have the reject red color come back at us-even after an appeal. He looks for 100% FULL 8" mirrors. Always check the reverse around 12:00 to see if the mirrors fade-to old timers that means the coin is NOT a full DMPL. I am NOT saying this 89CC has that-you can not tell from an image.
I am glad I don't collect Morgan Dollars.
Seems that "Copper for the weekend" has been replaced by "CAC for the weekend!"
Carry on.
I think this is an incorrect statement. It is up to a consignor to decide whether it should be sent in to CAC. There may be all kinds of reasons that he/she would decline to do so.
Morgans are hard to love below MS67 or MS66. Mint state gold is even worse for me.
I always love big fleshy hands in coin pictures. Keep 'em coming!
Ian to client. "We should send this to CAC to see if it passes. If it does, it will be worth 10K, maybe 20K more. It will cost 29 bucks to do it, plus shipping."
Client, "No, I would rather let someone else have that money, I hate money."
Please share the many other reasons someone would be as foolish as you make them sound by not wanting to send this coin to CAC?
I have to agree with CAC and DMPL coins. They have been tough on mine.
Hey buddy, can ya spare a dime ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I agree with most of some of what has been said here.
If I was the consignor and my coin was getting trashed I’d be on the phone with PCGS incessantly until the thread was deleted.
If you need a coin in a particular holder or with a sticker, best to buy it that way. Probably this coin was tried. Maybe it wasn’t. Maybe the consignor needs to sell it ASAP. Maybe someone is dumping an inheritance and needs/wants the $$ right now. You never know.
It’s hard to judge two $50k coins from photos when different lighting & techniques were used. We can all see which one looks nicer in the photos, but in-hand might be another story.
Here's why I gave you a "disagree."
It is a sad day when one man has that much control over the market for better coins. As I have told you people in the past, be careful what you wish for. Even if you think you have all of your assets lined up on the right ship, if a firestorm starts in the numismatic lake, you too might perish in its flames.
It’s one thing to tout the merits of one grading service. It’s another when you downgrade everyone else’s holdings. Stick to the positive about what you have. Avoid the negative about what others have.
I have to agree with CAC and DMPL coins. They have been tough on mine. > @BillJones said:
Why disagree with me? I don't set the higher pricing for CAC coins, but they are worth MORE! Even you can't argue that they sell for more money. On an expensive coin, why wouldn't you want to maximize your profits if you are selling? I was going to disagree back but then remembered I am older than 3.
I am warning you that if you ruin the market for non CAC coins that you run the risk of ruining the market for everything.
Maybe it hasn't been sent in. Just because a slab doesn't have a CAC sticker on it, doesn't mean it wouldn't warrant one.
ROFLOL comment of the day-you don't need me to print who said it:
Here's why I gave you a "disagree."
It is a sad day when one man has that much control over the market for better coins. As I have told you people in the past, be careful what you wish for. Even if you think you have all of your assets lined up on the right ship, if a firestorm starts in the numismatic lake, you too might perish in its flames.
It’s one thing to tout the merits of one grading service. It’s another when you downgrade everyone else’s holdings. Stick to the positive about what you have. Avoid the negative about what others have.
I do want t make this clear, no one should trash this coin with out seeing it. I see nothing wrong with asking why it is not CAC or has it ever been there. There is such a huge price difference.
Yours look like they have been used as skeet shooting targets.
All of this of course can be cleared up in a heartbeat with an open CAC database. Where we need more transparency, we have less.
There is NO DOUBT that coin was sent to CAC. Every auction house sends their high value coins in because of the bump in price.
That said, I don't really understand the point of the question.
It is a PcGS 63 DMPL with no CAC. Bid accordingly. It is virtually impossible to buy a coin, sight unseen, with the expectation that it would CAC if you bought it. A 63 DMPL with no CAC is just that.
Here's another related question:
would you pay more for a 63 DMPL with no CAC that hadn't been submitted over one that had been submitted and not stickered? If so, why? On the off chance that the coin would CAC even though you haven't seen it in hand. It's a coin, not a lottery ticket.
Is this true? Does JA only certify the grade not the DMPL? I find that hard to believe given the price difference between a DMPL and a non-DMPL.
Why would you submit coins to CAC that you wouldn't expect to sticker. 9/13 is an excellent rate. You have a good eye. But I've gotta believe you disagree with the 4 he didn't sticker and agree with the 9 he did sticker - otherwise why are you wasting money sending them in?
...and will the wizard bestow a heart to the Tin Man? A decade in, many don't really understand the meaning of the two seemingly simple beans.
I have never agreed with you more than on this. The CAC number is sometimes crazy. JA himself has said that even a gold CAC is simply an "A" grade FOR THE CURRENT GRADE. But, the market is starting to price the coins like even a green bean means automatic upgrade.
would you pay more for a 63 DMPL with no CAC that hadn't been submitted over one that had been submitted and not stickered? If so, why?
Simple: it all depends on the coin itself. Is it fresh? is it UNDERgraded? Are the mirrors 8" or 10? There are times when the answer can be yes. Sadly today, more times it is no.
Like someone said earlier here, why leave $10,000.00+ on the table as a seller? As an auction house, Ian is no dummy, I'm sure if it had not been sent, he would have suggested it. I know I send in every coin i can. If I do not offer, then I have not helped the customer max out their value.
Gold sticker means it would at least green sticker at the NEXT grade according to JA
What kind of coin gets a CAC gold sticker? CAC founder John Albanese describes it as a coin that could “easily green sticker at the next highest grade level.”
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yes, but it is NOT a GUARANTEE of an upgrade. And even the green CAC is starting to be interpreted as though it would upgrade. We now see 65 CAC's selling for as much or more than 66 no CAC.
IT'S MADNESS, I TELL YA!
For sure it’s not automatic that the grading services will comply. However, you are paying for the opinion that John thinks so. The allure of the gold sticker is that it also might go two grades or higher. I would never crack a gold sticker.
Gold stickers. John told me 10 years ago or so he did it to make sure collectors knew what they had. Crack out guys hated it
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
CAC goes full service and nobody would have to wonder much about anything.
...and a quick question, does JA have x-ray vision? Even with the so called edge view holders, part of the rims are obstructed. On the older PCGS/NGC holders, most of the rims are not visible.
As we are splitting grades to where only a dozen collectors per category can see the differences, how are rims accounted for?
If you actually owned any coins worth sending to CAC, you would sing a different song. He doesn't sticker details/problem/holed/jewelry piece/graffiti coins.
This is an understatement. Not only is there "risk," but a significant probability that if the non-CAC market tanks so will the CAC market. John can't buy them all at once. While CAC coins enjoy a premium (and in some cases a deserved premium), there is always a logical limit to the spread between CAC coins and non-CAC coins. You can never untether them completely, and even if you could, if a coin is not saleable without a sticker then most market participants wIth sense will exit the market and liquidity will diminish quickly for most coins regardless of sticker.
Well certainly most damaged coins are identifiable by examining the obverse and reverse, sometimes though damage is on the rim. Does JA just assume that what cannot be seen is unimpaired?
What I said was in jest, in response to your foolish DMPL comment above.
There is no other way. It is also why I would be scared of a pre prong holder coin that looked ridiculously under graded even by old standards.
There is no reasoning with close minded individuals. Should he also drill to the center of the coin to make sure the exact metal content is right? I'll take my chances that PCGS or NGC did not slip in a rim damaged coin, in the exact spot that the slab covers, to try and fool the world, and CAC.
I think he means from the old days when the gasket would cover the rims.
Truth is that you don't care if the rim is compromised or not. The CAC'd coin will flip 8 or ten times before anyone makes the effort to break it out and evaluate all three sides.
Advantage of course goes to NGC and PCGS as they are examining the entire raw coin. With CAC, it is two out or three ain't bad.
This is why I wish CAC would morph into a new grading service and do us all a favor rather than acting as an add on. He could create a separate LLC or blind trust to do the market maker thing and keep operations separate.
LOL.... even my dealer friend said the GC 89cc has probably been sent in for CAC , at every change in ownership,, because of the big bump up in price with a Bean
Oh well, we shall see !!!
1.) I am glad that over time I have learned to accept and appreciate the wisdom of the old-time collectors/dealers like BillJones, their perspective can be enlightening.
2.) I feel content with my collection and encouraged by the fact that the overwhelming majority of what I own is beyond what CAC seems willing to examine.
I find a striking parallel between the current conversation about CAC and the 15-20 year old conversation about the need to have every raw coin certified and encapsulated. back then the mantra was "If it's not in a holder there must be a reason" and time has shown that not to be wholly true. old time collectors weren't as enamored with TPG's as we currently are and their coins often stayed raw until their collections were sold, either by them or by their heirs. when sold by heirs the coins often were sent to a TPG or when bought raw by "one of us" it would quickly find its way into a holder.
either way, when said coins were discussed here prior to encapsulation it was always the same --- Why is it raw??
that same sentiment is now voiced with regard to CAC. apparently, to many, if a coin meets a certain value threshold it needs to sent to CAC. this isn't unreasonable but it is also presumes quite a bit. the downside to me is that as BillJones has said, it has tended to alter the dynamics of the Hobby as well as the pricing structure for many series'. the CAC phenomenon has "coerced" quite a number of collectors to submit to CAC just as 15-20 years ago they felt the need to send coins for encapsulation.
some of that is driven by value enhancement, without a doubt, but some is driven by other factors which have nothing to do with money. for my own part I bought into the "encapsulation" model for a variety of reasons, among them added value, uniformity in appearance, authentication, protection and most recently for the addition of the high quality pictures that the TPG's make available.
when BillJones says plainly that a rising tide lifts all boats and that the falling tide takes everything down what he says should at least be considered.
@ianrussell Was the coin sent to CAC?
On your site I see 753 CAC coins for sale and more than 25000 sold with CAC stickers. If this one was not sent in, I would love to hear the reason.
Only one person knows for sure, and he ain't talking. Never ASSuME.
Coin was minted 129 years ago in Carson City Nevada. It has survived, gunfights, bar brawls, long train rides, disenfranchised Indian warriors and roving brigands.
Here we are in June of 2018 with a single question...did John Albanese see it?
One guy, a single dream maker who either blesses it or does not.
This does not bode well for the future of the hobby.
GC will tell you if they (GC) have sent the coin to CAC. They will not provide you with TPG history. Ian in general recommends that every coin be sent to CAC. But it’s up to the owner to decide for themselves. So theoretically the owner could have previously submitted this coin to CAC and if you asked Ian about the coins history he would tell you that GC hadn’t submitted the coin.
An MS63, there is no chance it had the life above. It lived in solitary confinement.
Since you won't take my word for it, James Garcia (formerly of Scotsman) had an interesting post on the NGC forums some time ago about an OGH bust coin that he was burned on. The coin was silently netgraded for rim damage and not visible until he cracked it.
Edited: It may also have had other issues. In any event, @coinstartled is right that holders can hide things and CAC (and everyone else for that matter) can only go based on what isn't obscured by the plastic. Many coins that look super PQ at first have subtle issues that caused a netgrade. It is one of the reasons I hate the market grading concept and think all issues should be noted on the slab rather than silently sweeping it under the rug with a netgrade.
Really, so why did I read all that analysis? Pick a bid you are comfortable with and good luck.