<< <i>Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? Further, the COA's are stuffed in boxes on a production line with no regard for matching a particular COA to a particular coin, only that it is the correct coin not a specific coin. Determining if the correct coin is matched with the correct COA is something a third grader could easily do. As pointed out by cheezhed, why are CC dollar COA's any different? >>
Yes. The United States Mint had a very big problem with the Lewis and Clark coin and pouch set. They shipped several thousand blank COA's to two specific native Americans to fill out an mail back with their pouch. Long story short, the mint rejected the pouches and sent them back to the native Americans who sold them. A certain eBay seller took those and had someone make pouches that were WAY out f line with what the US Mint wanted released.
PM me if you want more info but the US Mint had a HUGE problem. >>
Interesting.. however it seems to me the issue there was counterfeiting of the pouches and illegitimate COA's, not US Mint issued COA's accompanying US Mint OGP.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I bought a 2008 W $10 AGE without OGP for about $100 less than one with. Bought the OGP for $25 and sold it together. Everybody happy. Fact is John this is so crazy. I have several modern commems I need to get OGP for at some point. OGP world is the perfect solution. Well here is hoping Flea Bay sees the light but I for one won't be holding my breath as I look fatter in blue
Currently working with nurmaler. Older transactions....circa 2011 BST transactions Gecko109, Segoja, lpinion, Agblox, oldgumballmachineswanted,pragmaticgoat, CharlieC, onlyroosies, timrutnat, ShinyThingsInPM under login lightcycler
John: Hi. Ebay cancelled today 50% of my auctions (1 out of 2 HAHA) informing me that I could not use a stock photo to sell a gold coin dated 2006?? I thought you could use stock photos for ultra modern coins ... no?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@derryb Other than a market for OGP with collectors who want the OGP with their graded coins, I suspect a number of graded modern non-70's have been cracked out and returned to OGP and sold as "just as received from the mint." I also suspect this creates demand for original mint capsules, which are unique.
This ! Slabbed MS/PR70 coin rarelly needs COA/OGP to accompany them...
I think your argument is perfectly valid. These are generic pieces of paper tied to common, generic coins. Good luck convincing the eBay drones inhabiting the logic-free zone, though.
A couple years ago I listed a group of contemporary counterfeit Bust Half Dollars. eBay ended all the listings, citing the Hobby Protection Act. Of course, the act doesn't apply to anything produced prior to its enactment, but the eBay dimwits are incapable of grasping this simple fact. On the plus side, the bidders who were in the hunt all contacted me and I sold the coins for very strong money and zero eBay fees.
<< <i>GSA CC COAs and empty boxes are routinely sold on ebay and have been for years. >>
If they get reported, they get nuked. That's what just happened to John. Some loser reported his listings. eBay doesn't go looking for this stuff. Instead they rely on an army of rats who have nothing better to do with their time.
Why now is the question I would be asking........does this have anything to do with e-bays new rules that take effect in June............I will when ever possible purchase boxes and coa's to make even a graded coin a complete package....more so on Gold but I have purchased silver eagle packaging............and would it be better to Title your listings as MINT KITS..............my 2 cents
eBay has to make rules for the greater good of a large company and I can completely understand their judgement call.
Why not include the paper with the slabbed coins when you sell them? It seems fairly absurd to make money off of paperwork from the mint, which is by and large worthless, when you're making the money on getting the coins graded.
Of course, I also think that stock images should not be allowed on any coin items. I believe that you are required to have exact images of the coins offered...is this not correct?
In the past when I purchased an item with a OGP and COA on Ebay, I expected that they had never parted ways since the mint!!! I would usually pay the premium for that assurance. With all the OGP's and COA's flying around on EBay you can sure kiss that concept goodbye. They mean nothing unless you are buying from the mint or your grandmother.
To put it bluntly, I would call selling it a somewhat sleazy practice at best.
I have never put much stock in COAs and I don't think anyone else really does either. They complete a OGP set, but they in no way really "authenticate" the coin. A real COA is a coin in a reputable TPG slab.
Sounds like ebay is trying to make an overarching rule that really doesn't apply well in this case.
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To put so much trust in one, wouldn't you have to know - with great detail - what a legitimate COA looks like? Without that knowledge, it's a nice piece of paper that makes the set feel complete.
In the past when I purchased an item with a OGP and COA on Ebay, I expected that they had never parted ways since the mint!!! I would usually pay the premium for that assurance. With all the OGP's and COA's flying around on EBay you can sure kiss that concept goodbye. They mean nothing unless you are buying from the mint or your grandmother.
To put it bluntly, I would call selling it a somewhat sleazy practice at best.
IMHO of course.
P.S. - not that I haven't been tempted"
Poopee: I am baffled by your position that the selling of empty govt. packaging (or COA's) is a "sleazy practice". Care to elaborate on that position?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Having sold a few coins retail. (mostly Gold) the end buyers do appreciate having mint kits (boxes and coa's)....does it add value ??.......Yes I think it does.......does it matter if they are ORIGINAL from the mint.........yes if they were numbered but otherwise no!...........I can say with out doubt that MCM is not the only seller of these items and many many big sellers also put these items in there stores or listings........they are important to some and that is added value to collectors............sleazy......I think not!!........for those that do you certainly are entitled to your opinion but have you ever asked the seller if that is the Coa and box the coin was born with...not likely...........For e-bay to make the moves that they have speaks volumes about where they want to go with their listings..............far and overreaching
<< <i>I have never put much stock in COAs and I don't think anyone else really does either. They complete a OGP set, but they in no way really "authenticate" the coin. A real COA is a coin in a reputable TPG slab.
Sounds like ebay is trying to make an overarching rule that really doesn't apply well in this case.[
I agree,and would much prefer the USMINT eliminate all OGP and lower the coin's cost to us with the money saved.
Well I knew before I made my post that I was swimming upstream.
I guess my biggest gripe is that I feel I have a chance at getting a perfect specimen if all items have been together since "birth". I am not sure that is the case when some one is buying packaging to go with a coin they came about one way or another.
<< <i>Poopee: I am baffled by your position that the selling of empty govt. packaging (or COA's) is a "sleazy practice". Care to elaborate on that position? >>
<< <i>+1 for ebay .... selling the OGP separate from the coin is greedy imop >>
Why? Maybe wanting to get the OGP packaging without paying for it is greedy instead?
edited to add... anyone who doesn't like the idea of buying the packaging separate from the coin is absolutely free to not do so. So some other people do want to buy packaging they don't have (for whatever reason) in order to "complete" their set. Where's the harm?
Some collectors want to keep the coins in SBB, and leaving the OGP in the storage. Overtime, some OGP may get lost (eg. flooding, moving..etc). I think they are providing us a good service to replace the OGP if needed.
<< <i>If the packaging didn't come with that specific coin "originally" is it really in it's "0riginal Government Packaging"? >>
I don't see why not. If you don't agree, you don't have to buy coins that aren't already complete with COA etc., do you?
One last thought on the complete coin + COA/packaging you appear to want... how will you know that the coin/packaging set you buy actually came together from the mint and wasn't pieced together by the seller you bought from?
Note- I don't really have any particular need to work on my post count, but I'm replying anyway...
<< <i>If the packaging didn't come with that specific coin "originally" is it really in it's "0riginal Government Packaging"?
Note - just working on my post count... >>
Nitpickingly technically no, but when the mint uses the exact same nearly 99.9999% identical OGP for the same 250,000 coins what difference does it really make which of the 250,000 COAs go with which coin. If your poopee grandkid snags the COA from your 1887 proof silver eagle and chews it up would you get rid of the coin and find a replacement complete with "original" COA and box or just get another COA?
<< <i>Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? >>
I think there are a few potential issues:
(1) COA is paired with a counterfeit. Many raw modern Chinese coins sell for large multiples of their issue price (> $10k) and COAs are important/highlighted in sales of those raw coins. A COA is also listed as the number 1 way to check for a fake Rolex in the eBay fake Rolex guide. I can see how a general concern for COA/counterfeit pairings can lead to a general across-the-board policy.
(2) Appearance that eBay is facilitating a market where genuine COAs can be paired with counterfeit goods. Even without COA/counterfeit listings, eBay may not want stand-alone COAs for sale given the impression it may create. This may be a concern for people that are aware of COA/counterfeit pairs as well as general eBay buyers who are unaware of how the slabbing/unslabbing of moderns works.
(3) Dissatisfied buyers that think they are getting a previously ungraded coin are really getting a coin graded < 69. This may also be an issue with buyers that are unaware of how the slabbing/unslabbing of moderns works.
If it is important enough to you, you may want to try to convince eBay that US Mint COAs should not be held to the same standard as other COAs. Since you have an OGP business, it may also be worth your while to create an eBay Guide on US Mint COA/OGP to educate people.
<< <i> If your poopee grandkid snags the COA from your 1887 proof silver eagle and chews it up would you get rid of the coin and find a replacement complete with "original" COA and box or just get another COA? >>
Well I personally don't care, because I throw out all my OGP & COA's unless they are something special, like a well done presentation case. But I will take a few over to my "Poopee grandkids" and find out if they are good for teething on.
I'm guessing the same advisors that advised ebay on the replica issues also warned them about aftermarket OGP selling and the risk that the packaging will get coupled up with counterfeit coins to legitimize them.
1) Greed? Give me a break. So far this venture has lost five figures in four full months of operation. It's a long term proposition and benefits those that want the product for legitimate purposes. Not a great way to get rich quick. 2) We include OGP free on request for anyone that buys a 70 graded new issue coin. If you buy a 69 it's not included. It's the simple economics of low to no mark up on 69's and additional shipping and handling costs. 3) When you buy a coin from a volume seller and the seller includes the OGP do you really think you are getting the exact OGP that came with that exact coin? Here is how it plays out: Hundreds if not thousands of coins are bought by the dealer. They are all removed from OGP and submitted in bulk to a TPG. They come back from grading and are in TPG holders. They are sold and the seller grabs a box off the shelf. There is no way to pair OGP (including COA's) with exact coins in bulk nor is there any reason to do so, the packaging is all identicle. 4) Even if a COA is numbered (very few are relative to the total number of COA's) that number ONLY represents a documentation of issuance or a number from one to the total mintage of the coin. It does not pertain to a uniqueness of one specific coin. 5) The only scenario I can think of where a numbered COA would pertain to a specific coin is if it is somewhere stated by the issuing mint that the number relates to each coin as it came off the press from striking. This is sometimes done where the first few coins are given to VIP's and get accompanying letter which is essentially a COA.
Again, I ask... who can state a single case of fraud involving genuine US Mint COA's? One person mention pouches but I think that situation was not a case of the COA's being the culprit. Where back issue counterfeits are known to exist (China) I imagine a counterfiet could be switched with a genuine coin. When is the last time you saw a counterfeit US coin minted after the beginning of the modern commems (1982)? I deal in the coins in volume, was a former grader, and my answer is never. I don't think OGPworld has ever had an OGP/COA in stock for coins that are known to be counterfeited. The OGP we sell is for coins that are relatively common and massed produced, thus no incentive to counterfeit them. The OGP we sell for world coins is for recently minted issues, again with little or no incentive to counterfeit the coins. Selling genuine OGP is not a problem. It happens on a wide scale basis. Disallowing the sale of this is a cop out for the uneducated that have pre conceived notions based on ignorance or what happens in other areas of collectibles where COA's are paired with SPECIFIC individual items. (art)
I am not an eBay basher. I like eBay. Their structure (mammoth) does not allow for common sense to easily be applied in every situation. It's their store, their rules, I get it. But when the rule is wrong I have a right to voice my concerns. eBay wants to grow their business as they should but in order to do that occasionally you have to deviate from macro level thinking.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I've heard of counterfeit First Spouse gold coins, although I haven't seen one personally. Making it easy for the bad guys to get the original certificates for those coins could increase the risk of someone getting ripped off.
I think there are MUCH bigger problem auctions on Ebay that need to be addressed before clamping down on mass produced packaging that is not tied to a specific coin but generic to the issue.
Also...I think the "greedy' comment is just dumb. I had a bunch of 20th Annie sets graded and have MANY OGP's left....now I can't sell them without being called "greedy"???
I've heard of counterfeit First Spouse gold coins, although I haven't seen one personally. Making it easy for the bad guys to get the original certificates for those coins could increase the risk of someone getting ripped off. Pics please????
and like gun laws, it keeps guns out of criminals hands how???
Everyday new rules. They are constantly pulling auctions with their new rules. They are going to lose significant market share in my opinion if they keep up this practice.
<< <i>I've heard of counterfeit First Spouse gold coins, although I haven't seen one personally. Making it easy for the bad guys to get the original certificates for those coins could increase the risk of someone getting ripped off. Pics please????
and like gun laws, it keeps guns out of criminals hands how??? >>
Hmmmmm...so what would stop the creators of these counterfeit gold coins from getting REAL sets, taking out the gold coins and replacing them with the fakes and then reselling the real AND fake coins with the fake having the COA and packaging???
There are a bazillion ways to commit a fraud if that's the intent. The question is what is the likelihood of it in this case? Almost zero IMO. Far more likely in selling ungraded classic coins that have been altered or ruined in some other way and no mention of that, far more likely by improper screening of new sellers on eBay, far more likely by deliberatley misrepresenting an item to make it sound like something it isn't.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I don't understand. Why have a COA if it's not specific to the coin that is being "certified"? I dont' understand the convention.
I guess I never really understood the Mint's COAs either. If you can buy & sell COA so readily, there's nothing to prevent the COAs being slapped onto a non-authentic piece and sold to an unsuspecting buyer. Is there?
In my former business, a Certificate of Analysis actually meant that the batch or the item had been analyzed. In this case, I don't understand why a Certificate of Authenticity doesn't mean that a specific item hasn't been authenticated.
Let me also state that I fully appreciate Modern Coin Mart and I think that John Maben has done a great job with the company.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Hmmmmm...so what would stop the creators of these counterfeit gold coins from getting REAL sets, taking out the gold coins and replacing them with the fakes and then reselling the real AND fake coins with the fake having the COA and packaging??? >>
If I'm going through all the trouble to manufacture counterfeit gold coins, I'll go the extra step and fake the packaging and COA's as well.
<< <i>I don't understand. Why have a COA if it's not specific to the coin that is being "certified"? I dont' understand the convention.
I guess I never really understood the Mint's COAs either. If you can buy & sell COA so readily, there's nothing to prevent the COAs being slapped onto a non-authentic piece and sold to an unsuspecting buyer. Is there?
In my former business, a Certificate of Analysis actually meant that the batch or the item had been analyzed. In this case, I don't understand why a Certificate of Authenticity doesn't mean that a specific item hasn't been authenticated.
Let me also state that I fully appreciate Modern Coin Mart and I think that John Maben has done a great job with the company. >>
ASEs by their method of manufacture and degree of security exercised therein are IMO authentic by default. There is no need to do anything extra in order to authenticate them. As to fraud, once it leaves the mint's control all bets are off.
As a purchaser of many black case GSA silver dollars (both CC and non-CC), back in the 1980s and 1990s, it was completely common practice to purchase those coins without cards or even boxes. That was just the way it was and most old-timers would snear at you and ask "What...are you buying the coin or the box?"
So, for those coins, in recent years, I've made it my business to assemble (usually via eBay or major shows) both excellent boxes and authentic numbered COA cards. And then as I've had my coins banded by NGC, I put all the material together and remarry the coins with their appropriate boxes and cards. Is this immoral or unwethical? I don't think so (and since I'm not planning on selling anytime soon, I'm not going to loose any sleep over it either).
The collecting world has changed and everyone now prefers original everything...and this just wasn't how the game used to be played...so we need to accommodate today's buyers.
And PS...a few weeks ago...I bought a supply of "new/reproduction" envelopes for Mint sets from a guy on eBay...to replace my ripped/torn/mutilated originals...and I'm very pleased. And if/when I ever sell those, I'll include both the clean envelopes and the rough originals...and I'm sure the buyer won't be disturbed in the least.
Sorry eBay seems to be yanking your chain, John...I've personally never had any problems with my dealings with your firm, your people or your product.
And PPS...since we're on the topic...if anyone has a spare 1891-CC GSA numbered card, feel free to PM me...and maybe we can make a deal!
<< <i>Interesting.. however it seems to me the issue there was counterfeiting of the pouches and illegitimate COA's, not US Mint issued COA's accompanying US Mint OGP. >>
What if someone started buying up genuine COA's of a bunch of different types of US Mint coins and started counterfeiting their own coins and placing the COA's with them and selling them as genuine Mint products with genuine Mint COA's? I see a big problem with that. This is maybe what ebay sees.
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So we should make rules based on what could but is unlikely to happen? Wow, there would be ten times the number of rules already in place. As stated before the economics of counterfeiting the vast majority of modern coins does not exist.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>Interesting.. however it seems to me the issue there was counterfeiting of the pouches and illegitimate COA's, not US Mint issued COA's accompanying US Mint OGP. >>
What if someone started buying up genuine COA's of a bunch of different types of US Mint coins and started counterfeiting their own coins and placing the COA's with them and selling them as genuine Mint products with genuine Mint COA's? I see a big problem with that. This is maybe what ebay sees. >>
Along those lines when PCGS started getting scads of 25th Anniv sets to grade, they had piles of "packaging". If someone offered $25 per set for unclaimed packaging and you were PCGS would you sell it to keep it from being disposed of OR get suspicious that someone was going to use it fraudulently and throw it in the dumpster?
I'm not a dealer but I have 100's of boxes stored. I have the coins in the capsule stored in air tite tubes. This I feel is better for long term storage of the coins etc. No way the same box and coa the coin came with will go out when I sell. I have several modern commems bought without OGP. I will aquire it at some point. This is commen practice and without a doubt nothing wrong with it. This disussion should not even be occuring but alas.........here we are.
Currently working with nurmaler. Older transactions....circa 2011 BST transactions Gecko109, Segoja, lpinion, Agblox, oldgumballmachineswanted,pragmaticgoat, CharlieC, onlyroosies, timrutnat, ShinyThingsInPM under login lightcycler
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? Further, the COA's are stuffed in boxes on a production line with no regard for matching a particular COA to a particular coin, only that it is the correct coin not a specific coin. Determining if the correct coin is matched with the correct COA is something a third grader could easily do. As pointed out by cheezhed, why are CC dollar COA's any different? >>
Yes. The United States Mint had a very big problem with the Lewis and Clark coin and pouch set. They shipped several thousand blank COA's to two specific native Americans to fill out an mail back with their pouch. Long story short, the mint rejected the pouches and sent them back to the native Americans who sold them. A certain eBay seller took those and had someone make pouches that were WAY out f line with what the US Mint wanted released.
PM me if you want more info but the US Mint had a HUGE problem. >>
Interesting.. however it seems to me the issue there was counterfeiting of the pouches and illegitimate COA's, not US Mint issued COA's accompanying US Mint OGP.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Wondercoin
This ! Slabbed MS/PR70 coin rarelly needs COA/OGP to accompany them...
A couple years ago I listed a group of contemporary counterfeit Bust Half Dollars. eBay ended all the listings, citing the Hobby Protection Act. Of course, the act doesn't apply to anything produced prior to its enactment, but the eBay dimwits are incapable of grasping this simple fact. On the plus side, the bidders who were in the hunt all contacted me and I sold the coins for very strong money and zero eBay fees.
Russ, NCNE
Why would mess with your bread and butter customers????
It's all about buyers rights with no real thought about the impact to it's super power sellers
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>GSA CC COAs and empty boxes are routinely sold on ebay and have been for years. >>
If they get reported, they get nuked. That's what just happened to John. Some loser reported his listings. eBay doesn't go looking for this stuff. Instead they rely on an army of rats who have nothing better to do with their time.
Russ, NCNE
Why not include the paper with the slabbed coins when you sell them? It seems fairly absurd to make money off of paperwork from the mint, which is by and large worthless, when you're making the money on getting the coins graded.
Of course, I also think that stock images should not be allowed on any coin items. I believe that you are required to have exact images of the coins offered...is this not correct?
<< <i>It seems fairly absurd to make money off of paperwork from the mint, which is by and large worthless... >>
??? Obviously, if somebody is making money selling the things, your conclusion that it's "by and large worthless" is inaccurate.
In the past when I purchased an item with a OGP and COA on Ebay, I expected that they had never parted ways since the mint!!! I would usually pay the premium for that assurance. With all the OGP's and COA's flying around on EBay you can sure kiss that concept goodbye. They mean nothing unless you are buying from the mint or your grandmother.
To put it bluntly, I would call selling it a somewhat sleazy practice at best.
IMHO of course.
P.S. - not that I haven't been tempted
how would ever know they were once separated...and does it really matter?
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>To put it bluntly, I would call selling it a somewhat sleazy practice at best. >>
Why? The COA is not tied to any specific coin. As long as the documentation and packaging is appropriate for the coin, what difference does it make?
Sounds like ebay is trying to make an overarching rule that really doesn't apply well in this case.
In the past when I purchased an item with a OGP and COA on Ebay, I expected that they had never parted ways since the mint!!! I would usually pay the premium for that assurance. With all the OGP's and COA's flying around on EBay you can sure kiss that concept goodbye. They mean nothing unless you are buying from the mint or your grandmother.
To put it bluntly, I would call selling it a somewhat sleazy practice at best.
IMHO of course.
P.S. - not that I haven't been tempted"
Poopee: I am baffled by your position that the selling of empty govt. packaging (or COA's) is a "sleazy practice". Care to elaborate on that position?
Wondercoin
<< <i>I have never put much stock in COAs and I don't think anyone else really does either. They complete a OGP set, but they in no way really "authenticate" the coin. A real COA is a coin in a reputable TPG slab.
Sounds like ebay is trying to make an overarching rule that really doesn't apply well in this case.[
I agree,and would much prefer the USMINT eliminate all OGP and lower the coin's cost to us with the money saved.
Well I knew before I made my post that I was swimming upstream.
I guess my biggest gripe is that I feel I have a chance at getting a perfect specimen if all items have been together since "birth". I am not sure that is the case when some one is buying packaging to go with a coin they came about one way or another.
<< <i>Poopee: I am baffled by your position that the selling of empty govt. packaging (or COA's) is a "sleazy practice". Care to elaborate on that position? >>
Poopee is something grandchildren do.
IMHO - just my opinion
Somewhat sleazy - just my opinion, but notice the use of somewhat. Maybe "Gray area" a better term for the thin skinned...
<< <i>+1 for ebay .... selling the OGP separate from the coin is greedy imop >>
Why? Maybe wanting to get the OGP packaging without paying for it is greedy instead?
edited to add... anyone who doesn't like the idea of buying the packaging separate from the coin is absolutely free to not do so. So some other people do want to buy packaging they don't have (for whatever reason) in order to "complete" their set. Where's the harm?
Some collectors want to keep the coins in SBB, and leaving the OGP in the storage. Overtime, some OGP may get lost (eg. flooding, moving..etc). I think they are providing us a good service to replace the OGP if needed.
Note - just working on my post count...
<< <i>If the packaging didn't come with that specific coin "originally" is it really in it's "0riginal Government Packaging"? >>
I don't see why not. If you don't agree, you don't have to buy coins that aren't already complete with COA etc., do you?
One last thought on the complete coin + COA/packaging you appear to want... how will you know that the coin/packaging set you buy actually came together from the mint and wasn't pieced together by the seller you bought from?
Note- I don't really have any particular need to work on my post count, but I'm replying anyway...
<< <i>If the packaging didn't come with that specific coin "originally" is it really in it's "0riginal Government Packaging"?
Note - just working on my post count... >>
Nitpickingly technically no, but when the mint uses the exact same nearly 99.9999% identical OGP for the same 250,000 coins what difference does it really make which of the 250,000 COAs go with which coin. If your poopee grandkid snags the COA from your 1887 proof silver eagle and chews it up would you get rid of the coin and find a replacement complete with "original" COA and box or just get another COA?
<< <i>Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? >>
I think there are a few potential issues:
(1) COA is paired with a counterfeit. Many raw modern Chinese coins sell for large multiples of their issue price (> $10k) and COAs are important/highlighted in sales of those raw coins. A COA is also listed as the number 1 way to check for a fake Rolex in the eBay fake Rolex guide. I can see how a general concern for COA/counterfeit pairings can lead to a general across-the-board policy.
(2) Appearance that eBay is facilitating a market where genuine COAs can be paired with counterfeit goods. Even without COA/counterfeit listings, eBay may not want stand-alone COAs for sale given the impression it may create. This may be a concern for people that are aware of COA/counterfeit pairs as well as general eBay buyers who are unaware of how the slabbing/unslabbing of moderns works.
(3) Dissatisfied buyers that think they are getting a previously ungraded coin are really getting a coin graded < 69. This may also be an issue with buyers that are unaware of how the slabbing/unslabbing of moderns works.
If it is important enough to you, you may want to try to convince eBay that US Mint COAs should not be held to the same standard as other COAs. Since you have an OGP business, it may also be worth your while to create an eBay Guide on US Mint COA/OGP to educate people.
<< <i> If your poopee grandkid snags the COA from your 1887 proof silver eagle and chews it up would you get rid of the coin and find a replacement complete with "original" COA and box or just get another COA? >>
Well I personally don't care, because I throw out all my OGP & COA's unless they are something special, like a well done presentation case. But I will take a few over to my "Poopee grandkids" and find out if they are good for teething on.
1) Greed? Give me a break. So far this venture has lost five figures in four full months of operation. It's a long term proposition and benefits those that want the product for legitimate purposes. Not a great way to get rich quick.
2) We include OGP free on request for anyone that buys a 70 graded new issue coin. If you buy a 69 it's not included. It's the simple economics of low to no mark up on 69's and additional shipping and handling costs.
3) When you buy a coin from a volume seller and the seller includes the OGP do you really think you are getting the exact OGP that came with that exact coin? Here is how it plays out: Hundreds if not thousands of coins are bought by the dealer. They are all removed from OGP and submitted in bulk to a TPG. They come back from grading and are in TPG holders. They are sold and the seller grabs a box off the shelf. There is no way to pair OGP (including COA's) with exact coins in bulk nor is there any reason to do so, the packaging is all identicle.
4) Even if a COA is numbered (very few are relative to the total number of COA's) that number ONLY represents a documentation of issuance or a number from one to the total mintage of the coin. It does not pertain to a uniqueness of one specific coin.
5) The only scenario I can think of where a numbered COA would pertain to a specific coin is if it is somewhere stated by the issuing mint that the number relates to each coin as it came off the press from striking. This is sometimes done where the first few coins are given to VIP's and get accompanying letter which is essentially a COA.
Again, I ask... who can state a single case of fraud involving genuine US Mint COA's? One person mention pouches but I think that situation was not a case of the COA's being the culprit. Where back issue counterfeits are known to exist (China) I imagine a counterfiet could be switched with a genuine coin. When is the last time you saw a counterfeit US coin minted after the beginning of the modern commems (1982)? I deal in the coins in volume, was a former grader, and my answer is never. I don't think OGPworld has ever had an OGP/COA in stock for coins that are known to be counterfeited. The OGP we sell is for coins that are relatively common and massed produced, thus no incentive to counterfeit them. The OGP we sell for world coins is for recently minted issues, again with little or no incentive to counterfeit the coins. Selling genuine OGP is not a problem. It happens on a wide scale basis. Disallowing the sale of this is a cop out for the uneducated that have pre conceived notions based on ignorance or what happens in other areas of collectibles where COA's are paired with SPECIFIC individual items. (art)
I am not an eBay basher. I like eBay. Their structure (mammoth) does not allow for common sense to easily be applied in every situation. It's their store, their rules, I get it. But when the rule is wrong I have a right to voice my concerns. eBay wants to grow their business as they should but in order to do that occasionally you have to deviate from macro level thinking.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Also...I think the "greedy' comment is just dumb. I had a bunch of 20th Annie sets graded and have MANY OGP's left....now I can't sell them without being called "greedy"???
Just don't buy it if you don't want it ....
and like gun laws, it keeps guns out of criminals hands how???
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Everyday new rules. They are constantly pulling auctions with their new rules. They are going to lose significant market share in my opinion if they keep up this practice.
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<< <i>I've heard of counterfeit First Spouse gold coins, although I haven't seen one personally. Making it easy for the bad guys to get the original certificates for those coins could increase the risk of someone getting ripped off. Pics please????
and like gun laws, it keeps guns out of criminals hands how??? >>
Hmmmmm...so what would stop the creators of these counterfeit gold coins from getting REAL sets, taking out the gold coins and replacing them with the fakes and then reselling the real AND fake coins with the fake having the COA and packaging???
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I guess I never really understood the Mint's COAs either. If you can buy & sell COA so readily, there's nothing to prevent the COAs being slapped onto a non-authentic piece and sold to an unsuspecting buyer. Is there?
In my former business, a Certificate of Analysis actually meant that the batch or the item had been analyzed. In this case, I don't understand why a Certificate of Authenticity doesn't mean that a specific item hasn't been authenticated.
Let me also state that I fully appreciate Modern Coin Mart and I think that John Maben has done a great job with the company.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Hmmmmm...so what would stop the creators of these counterfeit gold coins from getting REAL sets, taking out the gold coins and replacing them with the fakes and then reselling the real AND fake coins with the fake having the COA and packaging??? >>
If I'm going through all the trouble to manufacture counterfeit gold coins, I'll go the extra step and fake the packaging and COA's as well.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>why don't you identify it as PACKAGING and don't use the words "certificate of authenticity"? >>
A rose by any other name.....
works for me.....
<< <i>I don't understand. Why have a COA if it's not specific to the coin that is being "certified"? I dont' understand the convention.
I guess I never really understood the Mint's COAs either. If you can buy & sell COA so readily, there's nothing to prevent the COAs being slapped onto a non-authentic piece and sold to an unsuspecting buyer. Is there?
In my former business, a Certificate of Analysis actually meant that the batch or the item had been analyzed. In this case, I don't understand why a Certificate of Authenticity doesn't mean that a specific item hasn't been authenticated.
Let me also state that I fully appreciate Modern Coin Mart and I think that John Maben has done a great job with the company. >>
ASEs by their method of manufacture and degree of security exercised therein are IMO authentic by default. There is no need to do anything extra in order to authenticate them. As to fraud, once it leaves the mint's control all bets are off.
As a purchaser of many black case GSA silver dollars (both CC and non-CC), back in the 1980s and 1990s, it was completely common practice to purchase those coins without cards or even boxes. That was just the way it was and most old-timers would snear at you and ask "What...are you buying the coin or the box?"
So, for those coins, in recent years, I've made it my business to assemble (usually via eBay or major shows) both excellent boxes and authentic numbered COA cards. And then as I've had my coins banded by NGC, I put all the material together and remarry the coins with their appropriate boxes and cards. Is this immoral or unwethical? I don't think so (and since I'm not planning on selling anytime soon, I'm not going to loose any sleep over it either).
The collecting world has changed and everyone now prefers original everything...and this just wasn't how the game used to be played...so we need to accommodate today's buyers.
And PS...a few weeks ago...I bought a supply of "new/reproduction" envelopes for Mint sets from a guy on eBay...to replace my ripped/torn/mutilated originals...and I'm very pleased. And if/when I ever sell those, I'll include both the clean envelopes and the rough originals...and I'm sure the buyer won't be disturbed in the least.
Sorry eBay seems to be yanking your chain, John...I've personally never had any problems with my dealings with your firm, your people or your product.
And PPS...since we're on the topic...if anyone has a spare 1891-CC GSA numbered card, feel free to PM me...and maybe we can make a deal!
<< <i>Interesting.. however it seems to me the issue there was counterfeiting of the pouches and illegitimate COA's, not US Mint issued COA's accompanying US Mint OGP. >>
What if someone started buying up genuine COA's of a bunch of different types of US Mint coins and started counterfeiting their own coins and placing the COA's with them and selling them as genuine Mint products with genuine Mint COA's? I see a big problem with that. This is maybe what ebay sees.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>
<< <i>why don't you identify it as PACKAGING and don't use the words "certificate of authenticity"? >>
A rose by any other name.....
works for me..... >>
In order to prevent a possible SNAD wouldn't you need to identify exactly what "packaging" is?
Now today just look sorry I think that is a bigger problem!
COA and boxes are traded on bothe cce and coinnet a lot!
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting.. however it seems to me the issue there was counterfeiting of the pouches and illegitimate COA's, not US Mint issued COA's accompanying US Mint OGP. >>
What if someone started buying up genuine COA's of a bunch of different types of US Mint coins and started counterfeiting their own coins and placing the COA's with them and selling them as genuine Mint products with genuine Mint COA's? I see a big problem with that. This is maybe what ebay sees. >>
Along those lines when PCGS started getting scads of 25th Anniv sets to grade, they had piles of "packaging". If someone offered $25 per set for unclaimed packaging and you were PCGS would you sell it to keep it from being disposed of OR get suspicious that someone was going to use it fraudulently and throw it in the dumpster?