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NN: "5-Ounce ATB Coins Look Set to Fail"
Goldbully
Posts: 16,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
Guess most of us here saw this coming.....just too much of a gimmicky coin IMHO.
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5-Ounce ATB Coins Look Set to Fail
By David C. Harper, Numismatic News
March 01, 2012
Last year the U.S. Mint sold nearly 40 million one-ounce silver American Eagle bullion coins. The silver American Eagle is in the top rank of the world’s silver bullion coins.
Also in 2011, the Mint sold just over 400,000 5-ounce bullion coins. That is roughly 1 percent of the Eagle number, or 5 percent if you choose to figure it according to weight.
This year the number of 5-ounce ATB coins forecast to be made by the U.S. Mint is set to shrivel by almost half to 225,000 if projections are met – and you know what can happen to projections. Is that it? Are the 5-ounce America the Beautiful coins destined to follow the First Spouse gold coins to near irrelevance in the marketplace?
You would think that as popular an investment as silver bullion has become in recent years that there would be a far larger market for a 5-ounce bullion coin.
In fact, I think there probably is, but it will not be found by the present 5-ounce series.
Where the silver American Eagle is simplicity itself, one troy ounce of .999 fine silver that has become widely recognizable by market players in its 25 years of existence, the 5-ounce American Eagle designs come and go like a flashcard memory exercise.
Can you name the 10 designs that have already been struck and sold? How about the five designs due this year? I can’t recall them all without looking them up and I make my living doing this. Imagine what a silver bullion investor who knows little or nothing about numismatics feels like when confronted by these pieces. I expect he or she will opt for the familiar American Eagles, or Canadian Maple Leaves or Austrian Philharmonic coins.
The 5-ounce ATB coins are fun to heft, but those people who do so might then spot the denomination, “Quarter Dollar” under George Washington’s portrait. Can such a large coin with a denomination of 25 cents be taken seriously?
The important statement of .999 fine silver and the 5.0 ounce weight is stamped into the edge. Even collectors who have repeatedly read stories about these coins have to be reminded to look at the edges.
I expect this series will be allowed to run its course as the First Spouse gold series is being allowed to do. However it is a shame. In the case of the First Spouse coins, we already have convenient half-ounce gold coins, so they are not really needed in the marketplace.
Without the 5-ounce ATB coins, there is a void in the silver marketplace. Perhaps investors would not warm up to a 5-ounce coin of any type, but trying to keep track of 56 designs issued over 11 years is not something the average investor is inclined to do. Most don’t like to do the math to buy cheaper bags of pre-1965 U.S. silver coins.
That leaves collectors. There are some collectors for everything. However, the First Spouse coins demonstrate just how low sales numbers can fall and the ATB collector coins look like they will follow.
Numismaster Link
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5-Ounce ATB Coins Look Set to Fail
By David C. Harper, Numismatic News
March 01, 2012
Last year the U.S. Mint sold nearly 40 million one-ounce silver American Eagle bullion coins. The silver American Eagle is in the top rank of the world’s silver bullion coins.
Also in 2011, the Mint sold just over 400,000 5-ounce bullion coins. That is roughly 1 percent of the Eagle number, or 5 percent if you choose to figure it according to weight.
This year the number of 5-ounce ATB coins forecast to be made by the U.S. Mint is set to shrivel by almost half to 225,000 if projections are met – and you know what can happen to projections. Is that it? Are the 5-ounce America the Beautiful coins destined to follow the First Spouse gold coins to near irrelevance in the marketplace?
You would think that as popular an investment as silver bullion has become in recent years that there would be a far larger market for a 5-ounce bullion coin.
In fact, I think there probably is, but it will not be found by the present 5-ounce series.
Where the silver American Eagle is simplicity itself, one troy ounce of .999 fine silver that has become widely recognizable by market players in its 25 years of existence, the 5-ounce American Eagle designs come and go like a flashcard memory exercise.
Can you name the 10 designs that have already been struck and sold? How about the five designs due this year? I can’t recall them all without looking them up and I make my living doing this. Imagine what a silver bullion investor who knows little or nothing about numismatics feels like when confronted by these pieces. I expect he or she will opt for the familiar American Eagles, or Canadian Maple Leaves or Austrian Philharmonic coins.
The 5-ounce ATB coins are fun to heft, but those people who do so might then spot the denomination, “Quarter Dollar” under George Washington’s portrait. Can such a large coin with a denomination of 25 cents be taken seriously?
The important statement of .999 fine silver and the 5.0 ounce weight is stamped into the edge. Even collectors who have repeatedly read stories about these coins have to be reminded to look at the edges.
I expect this series will be allowed to run its course as the First Spouse gold series is being allowed to do. However it is a shame. In the case of the First Spouse coins, we already have convenient half-ounce gold coins, so they are not really needed in the marketplace.
Without the 5-ounce ATB coins, there is a void in the silver marketplace. Perhaps investors would not warm up to a 5-ounce coin of any type, but trying to keep track of 56 designs issued over 11 years is not something the average investor is inclined to do. Most don’t like to do the math to buy cheaper bags of pre-1965 U.S. silver coins.
That leaves collectors. There are some collectors for everything. However, the First Spouse coins demonstrate just how low sales numbers can fall and the ATB collector coins look like they will follow.
Numismaster Link
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Comments
Box of 20
As for reprice, kind of surprised. I think the price was $209, which is $42oz. I guess 20% over spot isn't enough these days.
<< <i>They didn't fail for me in 2010! >>
Yep.
And nearing the end of the frenzy, $1400 - 1450 from a large modern dealer was a no brainer.
And then bought a set on the cheap recently when silver hit $28.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>They're failing because they're butt ugly. Might just as well buy a bar. A five ouncer with an inspired design would do fine.
Russ, NCNE >>
Sorry But I like some of the designs just fine, and looking forward to Hawaii and a few others Enjoy tom
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>They're failing because they're butt ugly. >>
This
<< <i>
<< <i>They're failing because they're butt ugly. >>
This >>
Still pondering your comment!!!
Oh, and Russ, could you please be a bit more honest in your feelings on this topic??
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>They didn't fail for me in 2010! >>
Indeed. Well stated!
Its too bad.When they were first minted,many of us had high expectations of where they would go.Even with the manipulation of sales of the 2010 sets,some of us bought multiple sets as an investment.The mint marked pucks seemed to be an easy money maker with its low mintage numbers.The idea of buying 5 0zs of silver at close to spot was a big plus.In 2011 the mint announced that they would raise the mintages,not a good thing.From there it seems that the series has lost its luster.Quick sellouts are a thing of the past.
I stated in an earlier post that I would get the 2011 dated pucks and then decide if I would continue to collect them.I havent made that decision yet.maybe the mint marked ones for 2012.I dont really know if a reduction of its mintages would save this series from where its headed.I would really like to hear what eric thinks about the future of this series.
<< <i>the premiums are too high to make it a really competitive bullion product >>
The premiums are lower than ASE's per ounce. Though higher than generic silver rounds.
FWIW - I'm still holding MS69 and MS68 2010 DMPL sets as well as a few of the 2011 designs that I liked in DMPL. I'll only be purchasing the designs I like from here on out. The 2010 set frenzy was amazing!
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i>they will fail if they take a week to reprice them instead of 1 minute. >>
totally agree!
I mentioned it in another thread but I have waited for a week now to order and the Mint has been unable to list the new price and starts sales back up. Because of this they are forcing me to purchase from an outside source and that's 5 more sales they will lose....
I have completed positive sales and purchses from the following members:
jclovescoins, dpoole, dmarks, guysmiling, Ducky1100 , piecesofme, ericj96 ,Classof67, ModernCoin, MrOrganic, 53BKid, nychad10, GUINZO1975, derryb (3 times), PinkFloyd
<< <i>.I would really like to hear what eric thinks about the future of this series. >>
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
Due to their relatively high mintage, the 2007 Spouses are currently treated as bullion coins in the marketplace, but all the later dates carry some numismatic premium in both uncirculated and proof.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I actually kind of like them. But I am not collecting them.
IMO this program has failed because of how the USMint has handled the selling of these. Putting them into the hands of the chosen few bullion suppliers made it a rigged game from the very beginning. If I want an MS70, I have no choice but to purchase at the elevated price from the bullion dealer. If I just want a BU example, most likely it also will be directly or indirectly from the bullion dealer, and will most surely be a picked over example.
Part of the excitement for many collectors, is the chance to be able to obtain their own MS69 or MS70 examples. Without the chance to do so, many have chosen not to even participate with the series.
If the USMint would have allowed direct selling to the public of the BU examples, I would bet the market would be much more heated up. Each buyer would have the chance to participate obtaining the nicer examples, and buying and selling would increase. The Mint would not have had to resort to selling single coins... they could require purchase of at least a roll (or even more) so they could minimize their hassle. And forget the fancy do dah packaging! Just the simple rolls, etc.
Not too late for the Mint to redo the rules... but I'm sure they will not do so.
I bought 4 of the BU 2008 Dolly Madison pieces from a local B&M dealer for melt 2 years ago.
The 5 oz. ATB's aren't getting any respect from dealers I have talked to.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This is possible with the vapor-blasted "collector" issues sold directly by the Mint. Of course, the premium is already built-in on an ungraded specimen - so it's rigged in a different way.
If the USMint would have allowed direct selling to the public of the BU examples, I would bet the market would be much more heated up. Each buyer would have the chance to participate obtaining the nicer examples, and buying and selling would increase. The Mint would not have had to resort to selling single coins... they could require purchase of at least a roll (or even more) so they could minimize their hassle. And forget the fancy do dah packaging! Just the simple rolls, etc.
<< .I would really like to hear what eric thinks about the future of this series. >>
Let me make a stab at reading Eric's mind. Hmmmmm.......I seem to be channeling the words, "troubled infancy".
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>The Mint should colorize the pucks...would make them a lot more attractive.
Pearlescent Washington Bust?
Maybe. Maybe Not.
If the US Mint started producing 5 oz Silver Eagles or anything else in 5 oz quantities, these pucks might pick up some interest but as it is, they're simply an expensive oddity that doesn't really fit into coin collecting.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>They're failing because they're butt ugly. Might just as well buy a bar. A five ouncer with an inspired design would do fine.
Russ, NCNE >>
I completely agree.
The name is LEE!
Unlike the ASE. The ASE is the same thing, you know what you are going to get, be it bullion, 25th Anny RP, etc.
The 5 oz ATB bullion? 10 year program. Future designs unknown. Potential unispiring national parks. I live in Iowa. Our ATB park is Effigy Mounds on the Missippi river due in 2017, I think. I wonder what that is going to look like as a coin design. I've been to EM, great park, very interesting to visit, but it's not the Grand Canyon.
The criteria of one park per state per ATB design is flawed from the get go.
With this series, it seems as though anything that could possibly go wrong, did; from the initial specs to the resulting production difficulties to the inevitable distribution problems. Add to that a grading learning curve, milk spots, and a healthy dose of greed, and it's no wonder they were just a flash in the pan.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
<< <i>With this series, it seems as though anything that could possibly go wrong, did; from the initial specs to the resulting production difficulties to the inevitable distribution problems. Add to that a grading learning curve, milk spots, and a healthy dose of greed, and it's no wonder they were just a flash in the pan.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>What are the PCGS slabbed non-MS70 ATB's worth these days? >>
Anyone? Can I assume dealers will only offer bullion value for them?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i>They should try to make them 10 oz., with the obverse of a Roosevelt dime, and reverses featuring portraits of 5 starlet trainwrecks per year >>
Good one! Modeling them after the quarter was a stupid idea, IMO. They look ridiculous.
Anyone? Can I assume dealers will only offer bullion value for them?
At a recent coin show I sold a couple 2010 sets at a little over spot to one of the bullion guys. Looking back, it was not a great move on my part.
Modeling them after the quarter was a stupid idea, IMO. They look ridiculous.
I agree. Just remember that these same legislators are responsible for the rest of the laws we have to live with as well.
Potential unispiring national parks. I live in Iowa. Our ATB park is Effigy Mounds on the Missippi river due in 2017, I think. I wonder what that is going to look like as a coin design. I've been to EM, great park, very interesting to visit, but it's not the Grand Canyon.
One of my favorite areas. The walk up to the trail has one of the prettiest wooded gorges I can ever recall seeing.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>They should try to make them 10 oz., with the obverse of a Roosevelt dime, and reverses featuring portraits of 5 starlet trainwrecks per year >>
Good one! Modeling them after the quarter was a stupid idea, IMO. They look ridiculous. >>
What should they have modeled them after? I think it's obvious that the only reason they chose the quarter is that the quarter is what's being used to portray the circulating versing of the ATB. I have all the P mint issues and the coins come in capsules with the heads side down in the velvet box. I never bothered to look at that side of the coin. The side with the ATB National Parks are very artistic and are attractive and every coin has a different design. It's not everyone's cup of tea but I see many coins here that that I consider to be boring and ugly that I would never want to own. I can't think of any coin that everyone here universally likes.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.