Spots popping up all over my PCGS 25th Set Proofs

BlueBeeshobbies · February 13, 2012 5:47PM

Hi,I have 13 sets of the 25th pcgs 70 sets. I was looking at them today and noticed 11 of the proofs have spots. Few are really covered in some areas. My proofs from ATS are okay so far. This spotting issue is going to make me not buy PCGS 70s any more.

PinkFloyd · February 13, 2012 6:54PM

Wow---that sucks...sorry to hear that. Were they the standard proofs or are the reverse proofs being hit too?

Placid · February 13, 2012 8:28PM

I would guess pcgs has done tests by now to see if it is the pcgs holder causing the spots or not?
Pcgs would "fix" them Im sure if you are willing to pay shipping.

oneor11 · February 13, 2012 9:05PM

I don't have any links, but I do recall other threads mentioning their PCGS 70s also spotting.

AnkurJ · February 13, 2012 9:38PM

Yikes! I'm glad I sold all of mine.

pf70collector · February 13, 2012 9:44PM

These are guaranteed. Since the set is so new, PCGS may be able to replace them all. I do think exposing these to air when in the grading process accelerates the spotting. I had similar problems with some early 2000s NGC Proof 70s. Sent in about 5 and all were replaced with new 70s from NGC. Good Luck. I only have 1 70 pcgs anniversary set and 2 ngc 70 sets. Will not hold anymore for this very reason.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 13, 2012 9:56PM

We pay PCGS to house and grade them. We pay the mint to produce, package , present and ship them. Both of those entities would pay us if we could prevent them

spots from developing on them.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 13, 2012 9:57PM

Maybe there is a secret formula

BlueBeeshobbies · February 13, 2012 11:06PM

The spots are only on the regular proofs.In the shiny fields. I will call PCGS today and see what they say.

ModernCoin · February 13, 2012 11:23PM

<< I would guess pcgs has done tests by now to see if it is the pcgs holder causing the spots or not? >>

Whether or not PCGS holders cause accelerated milk spot development is unknown at this point. The real issue here is how the US mint prepares their blanks. Milk Spots are a major problem for ASEs and have caused many collectors to quit collecting them altogether

. I don't see this problem with Lunars so if Perth can make proof coins that won't spot why can't the US Mint?

Your comment regarding the holder is one that should be asked as without a doubt PCGS holders cause modern mint gold to tone VERY quickly.

Look at the $5 2008 AGE in this thread. I've seen many, many other AGEs from just the last few years display similar toning as well, but I have NEVER seen a similar example in a NGC slab. That's not to say they don't exist, but I have never seen one or even heard of one. FWIW derryb has stated that the issue is also seen with ICG slabs on occasion. It makes me wonder if both PCGS and ICG source their gaskets from the same place in China or something like that. We'll probably never know...

garrynot · February 13, 2012 11:27PM

Thats what happens when you buy that MS70 stuff.

ricko · February 13, 2012 11:27PM

Milk spots on ASE's have been a perennial problem. If these are milk spots, and it sounds like it, then there is no cure for them once developed. Sad situation indeed. Cheers, RickO

BlueBeeshobbies · February 13, 2012 11:37PM

It seems to me it might be in the plastic they use. I collected hotwheels and johnny lightnings also and on some of them the plastics turn yellow,even being in box in closet with no light. My 25 ATS 25tth sets proofs are fine. I even noticed my 09 UHR from PCGS has become darker lately but no spots. This spotting issue really needs to be fixed ASAP.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 13, 2012 11:38PM

<< The spots are only on the regular proofs.In the shiny fields. I will call PCGS today and see what they say. >>

Thank you for clarifying. I think you're referring to the mirrorred field. It's unusual because it's the UNCs or uncirculated specimens that tend to be the bigger problem. I do not notice many milk spots on proofs.

Goldbully · February 14, 2012 12:04AM

50% of my 2006-W PCGS proofs had milk spots......very sorry to hear about this recent occurence.
Glad I recently sold my 25th Anniversary sets now
Something must be done about this problem....I was paranoid about spots, so I sold the sets while they were still spotless.

PerryHall · February 14, 2012 12:07AM

<< Hi,I have 13 sets of the 25th pcgs 70 sets. I was looking at them today and noticed 11 of the proofs have spots. Few are really covered in some areas. My proofs from ATS are okay so far. This spotting issue is going to make me not buy PCGS 70s any more. >>

Interesting considering all the NGC bashing in another thread over the last few days.

BAJJERFAN · February 14, 2012 12:09AM

<< Yikes! I'm glad I sold all of mine. >>

Which is why I won't put good money into collecting them.

PerryHall · February 14, 2012 12:10AM

Has anyone here experienced milk spots on non-proof modern silver commems or ASE's?

magikbilly · February 14, 2012 12:13AM

Too bad the spots aren't theoretical like "70" used to be if my memory serves. I can't place it into words, but my gut is saying the mirrored fields would spot before frosted devices. Is this true? Are the mirrored surfaces spotting more? Are they more delicate? Then again, a frosted device would have a lot more surface area by its very nature....hmmm.

Eric

magikbilly · February 14, 2012 12:14AM

<< Has anyone here experienced milk spots on non-proof modern silver commems or ASE's? >>

Excellent question - not asked before??

Eric

shorecoll · February 14, 2012 12:15AM

I thought the answer was determined to be dipping before slabbing, is this not true? NGC is certainly set up to do this with NCS, maybe that's the difference?

BAJJERFAN · February 14, 2012 12:16AM

<< Has anyone here experienced milk spots on non-proof modern silver commems or ASE's? >>

Regular ASEs spot too. PCGS should dip these BEFORE holdering IMO, save a lot of grief esp. on 70s. I hear both acetone and EZest touted as the preferred dip. Perhaps PCGS should get 3 rolls from a monster box, dip 20 in EZest, 20 in acetone and 20 undipped. Grade and holder and see what happens.

mingot · February 14, 2012 12:16AM

Curious about these spots --

can the tpgs remove them?

do they cause permanent damage to the surface of the coin if left?

magikbilly · February 14, 2012 12:19AM

<< I thought the answer was determined to be dipping before slabbing, is this not true? NGC is certainly set up to do this with NCS, maybe that's the difference? >>

I missed this memo. Link

I find it interesting how some folks spend a lot but have little idea what they are getting, the stability or other seemingly germane info. Gotta love the learning curve.

Eric

BigA · February 14, 2012 12:23AM

Since the 70 grade is guaranteed what is the issue about buying or holding a 70 set from either company? If they spot they will be replaced or purchased back. I had 5 of my NGC 20th Annie proofs replaced or purchased...2 of the RP's.

The issue would be more relevant to the 69's since after submitting a couple of 69's I was told that my spotted PF's still met grade 69 criteria.

Casman · February 14, 2012 12:24AM

Yup, my non-proof ASE's spotted as well. I've dumped all my ase's because of the spot problem. On a side note, I was at a local B&M years ago and they had NGC ASE's in a folder like binder book...Everyone of them had spots...I'd asked the owner what was up with these and he'd said Oh they all do that, and he called them chicken pox...Never heard that before.

ModernCoin · February 14, 2012 12:25AM

<< Regular ASEs spot too. PCGS should dip these BEFORE holdering IMO, save a lot of grief esp. on 70s. I hear both acetone and EZest touted as the preferred dip. Perhaps PCGS should get 3 rolls from a monster box, dip 20 in EZest, 20 in acetone and 20 undipped. Grade and holder and see what happens. >>

Someone here a few years ago offered to pay for the ASE's if PCGS would take part in a study. IIRC correctly the poster was going to store coins from the same MB in various manors to see if more can be determined about how milk spots formed. PCGS never replied to him according to his last post. If you search "milk spot" in this forum you'll find plenty of threads on the subject as well. From reading many of those old threads the general consensus is that rinsing the coins in acetone first will neutralize the substances on the coin that causes the spots to form. That may or may not be true, but that seems to be what most believe.

magikbilly · February 14, 2012 12:30AM

<< Since the 70 grade is guaranteed what is the issue about buying or holding a 70 set from either company? If they spot they will be replaced or purchased back. I had 5 of my NGC 20th Annie proofs replaced or purchased...2 of the RP's.

The issue would be more relevant to the 69's since after submitting a couple of 69's I was told that my spotted PF's still met grade 69 criteria. >>

I wonder what the TPG folks who are on the hook for the cost of replacements, regrades, conservation, holders and all think? Maybe we will see less 70's - it is a "back up against the wall" grade in this system I guess, and that makes it a bad idea to guarantee to me as everything else seems to drift faster and change or pop up (like spots). No 70's for me. Are they dipped or not before slabbing?
I recall "...the highest...", not "most accurate" - my memory...Oh.

Eric

edited to switch bold "what" from "if" and for am spelling

pitboss · February 14, 2012 12:39AM

I have been dipping all of mine for about 2 years now and have had no problems at all.

That was the reason I did not get any of my 25th anniversary sets graded by PCGS and NGC but did use ANACS for 3 sets.

I wanted to dip them first.

tahoe98 · February 14, 2012 12:41AM

...i'm just curious, has anyone ever heard of non U.S. coins being slabbed at the TPG's having the same problem?

BigA · February 14, 2012 12:44AM

I haven't had any ASE's spot since the 2006 set and I never dip my coins before grading...

Hard to tell if dipping helps or if it's just a random event....

BAJJERFAN · February 14, 2012 12:45AM

<< 

<< Since the 70 grade is guaranteed what is the issue about buying or holding a 70 set from either company? If they spot they will be replaced or purchased back. I had 5 of my NGC 20th Annie proofs replaced or purchased...2 of the RP's.

The issue would be more relevant to the 69's since after submitting a couple of 69's I was told that my spotted PF's still met grade 69 criteria. >>

I wonder if the TPG folks who are on the hook for the cost of replacements, regrades, conservation, holders and all think? Maybe we will see less 70's - it is a "back up against the wall" grade in this system I guess, and that makes it a bad idea to gurantee me as everything else seems to drift faster and change or pop up (like spots). No 70's for me. Are they dipped or not before slabbing?
I recall "...the highest...", not "most accurate" - my memory...Oh.

Eric >>

There was one year when PCGS refused to grade any non-proof ASE as a 70 or very few if they ever did.

nwcoast · February 14, 2012 12:49AM

<< Has anyone here experienced milk spots on non-proof modern silver commems or ASE's? >>

Yes, i have some orig UNC Franklin half rolls from the early 60's and one that I cracked to sell some singles out of had milk spots, many of them! These rolls are very tight transprent plastic tubes, not the ones with caps that can be popped off, but plastic which has shrunk and needs to be cut and torn off. I had one dealer tell me that Unc Franklins were prone to spotting and that he spots can't be removed. I'll have to try some acetone to test his theory. I wonder if it's something in the plastic?

I hope my unopened 'box of five' sets isn't spotting in the dark there.....

silverstreak · February 14, 2012 1:00AM

The only attrition to 70 sets are milk spots. If one can be lucky then the surviving specimens will be worth more for sure. I have 9 sets of mercanti 70's that are stored in boxes. I guess I better get them in intercept shields. Not sure that will prevent but only thing I know to do at this point.

BAJJERFAN · February 14, 2012 1:03AM

<< 

<< Regular ASEs spot too. PCGS should dip these BEFORE holdering IMO, save a lot of grief esp. on 70s. I hear both acetone and EZest touted as the preferred dip. Perhaps PCGS should get 3 rolls from a monster box, dip 20 in EZest, 20 in acetone and 20 undipped. Grade and holder and see what happens. >>

Someone here a few years ago offered to pay for the ASE's if PCGS would take part in a study. IIRC correctly the poster was going to store coins from the same MB in various manors to see if more can be determined about how milk spots formed. PCGS never replied to him according to his last post. If you search "milk spot" in this forum you'll find plenty of threads on the subject as well. From reading many of those old threads the general consensus is that rinsing the coins in acetone first will neutralize the substances on the coin that causes the spots to form. That may or may not be true, but that seems to be what most believe. >>

Since acetone is neither acidic nor basic, it really can't neutralize anything. Neutralizing also implies leaving something behind. If whatever it is is acetone soluble it can be removed by rinsing with acetone. IMO there are two different issues with regard to the spottint. White or milky spots are due to chloride/silver chloride. I have also seen spots which are greenish/tan that I think are from whatever surfactant/rinse aid that the planchet supplier uses. There was a post here a few years back where the poster said that mint records showed the purchase of butyl cellosolve. Could be they were re-rinsing planchets, but who knows.

BigA · February 14, 2012 1:04AM

<< There was one year when PCGS refused to grade any non-proof ASE as a 70 or very few if they ever did. >>

That would be 2006 for the 20th Annie set. Most submissions started to go ATS so they changed and started properly grading the sets. This is why a PCGS MS70 2006 W sells for so much. Only 571 out of the over 16,000 MS 20th Annie coins received that grade.

braddick · February 14, 2012 1:08AM

<< 

<< Has anyone here experienced milk spots on non-proof modern silver commems or ASE's? >>

Excellent question - not asked before??

Eric >>

I've seen them pop up on Peace dollars and also silver Kennedy proofs and SMS coins.

magikbilly · February 14, 2012 1:09AM

<< ...i'm just curious, has anyone ever heard of non U.S. coins being slabbed at the TPG's having the same problem?

>>

more good thinking

Eric

Nooker · February 14, 2012 1:10AM

what about 69's? Are they "allowed" to have spots and still be a legit 69? So i guess what I'm asking is if PCGS would "fix" a 69 if sent back?

Mark

GMan · February 14, 2012 1:22AM

I just checked and the proof coins from my 2 69 sets are both starting to spot. I think I'm just going to sell one set and maybe crack the other and put it back in the OGP to keep. I should have just sold all but one set and kept it in the OGP. I'm sure these weren't spotted when I first looked at them.

Steve · February 14, 2012 2:03AM

This thread says it all.

Look how MANY responses already.

Why would anyone BUY a bunch of the same coin sets in the highest grade anyway? Maybe to resell and make some money?
In my opinion it is just plain stupid to spend MS/PR 70 money for duplicate current produced multiple coins from the US Mint or from TPG. No dealer will EVER buy these coins back with spots or without spots. Of course there are always some who are doing this as part of the speculation game. Lots of luck. The purpose of this hobby is to collect nice historic coins for their beauty. You really only need one of each date and mint mark to form a collection.JMHO.
Steve

coasterfan · February 14, 2012 2:15AM

<< The only attrition to 70 sets are milk spots. If one can be lucky then the surviving specimens will be worth more for sure. I have 9 sets of mercanti 70's that are stored in boxes. I guess I better get them in intercept shields. Not sure that will prevent but only thing I know to do at this point. >>

The Intercept Shield won't help. I had a raw 2006 RP that spotted while it was housed in an IS box. I haven't had any ASEs spot since storing them with those dessicant thingies that suck up moisture.

ModernCoin · February 14, 2012 2:16AM

Meh...n/m

wondercoin · February 14, 2012 2:30AM

Strange thread ...

Dealers running from these 70's??

I can use upwards of 50-100 Mercanti signed PCGS 70 sets today at the right price. Who's selling (min. 5 set sale to me)? Send me a PM please.

Wondercoin

P.S. My comment here addresses a post that I just see Moderncoin edited out.

epcjimi1 · February 14, 2012 2:33AM

<< what about 69's? Are they "allowed" to have spots and still be a legit 69? So i guess what I'm asking is if PCGS would "fix" a 69 if sent back?

Mark >>

I believe pcgs would evaluate a 69 milk spotted ASE under the "guarantee resubmission".

You can read about it here -

Text

and here -

detail

or just call pcgs @ (800) 447-8848 and ask 'em.

magikbilly · February 14, 2012 2:36AM

Never owned a 70 btw (never owned a bridge either), never would, and those strong 63's still look good to me. Maybe better.

Eric

ModernCoin · February 14, 2012 2:39AM

<< P.S. My comment here addresses a post that I just see Moderncoin edited out. >>

Yeah, I figured my sarcasm was a bit too much regardless of whether or not it was warranted

.

wondercoin · February 14, 2012 2:40AM

I thought as much Moderncoin, but I understand why it was edited as many folks might have read it wrong.

Wondercoin

kiyote · February 14, 2012 2:51AM

I still have my OGP 20th anniversary set, spot free. Are any OGPs seeing milk spots?

pf70collector · February 14, 2012 2:57AM

Yes, my mom's 2006 20th Anniversary raw OGP has no spotting so far.

BlueBeeshobbies · February 14, 2012 3:16AM

Hi, I just got off phone and they said to send them in. I asked if they would replace them and she said no they would clean it if they can. I'm boxing them up tonight.I'll post my results when returned.Laters

Also at $25 a coin I hope they clean it good

Spots popping up all over my PCGS 25th Set Proofs

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