<< <i>One would think that with all of the new Mint depts./Mint reorganization described in the current issue of CW that The Mint would make an effort to address this spotting issue with the major TPGs.
They are COLLECTOR coins. LOTS of collectors have these collector coins encapsulated by TPGs. There are even reports of coins spotting in the OGP. It's just amazing that The Mint has not done this.
Further, I think that The Mint could gain more insight into what collectors want by simply following these PCGS forums than by all the surveys and advisory boards combined many times over.
Some of this stuff seems so simple, so obvious, yet it never happens.
Rant over >>
Agreed. It really is ridiculous the Mint hasn't moved to fix these problems. >>
Firstly, they apparently don't care. Most of their customers either don't know or don't care. I remember a board member hand picking some proof ASEs from the Mint's kiosk at Union Station in D.C. The lady behind the counter commented you must be a collector.
Instead of making them themselves, I believe the mint buys the planchets ready to strike. Therefore it is incumbent upon the vendor to make sure they are properly washed and rinsed. I expect they don't care enough either.
<< <i>I feel for those that have purchased the PCGS high grade sets and now have the option of paying an addditional $25 per for a 'solution.'
Or the option to live with the results of spotting. Or to sell them 'as is.'
Or, like me, to generally avoid the graded ASE sets and singles and largely 'collect' ASE rolls where I am focused singularly on the silver value.
I appreciate the role the Mint plays in my enjoyment of this recent HOT issue and I am so thankful I only kept a few of the 2006 and 2011 Anniv. sets!
I have yet to see any spotting in my reverse 07/08's; although, they are either raw or NGC.
Thanks to all of you that have shared your experiences with spotting! I am learning.......
Miles >>
PCGS is caught between a rock and a hard spot [NPI]. They guarantee a grade for something that isn't their fault nor for which they have no control. It costs them as much $$ and grief as it costs collectors.
Most spots show up better when side lit with a bright direct light. I find it very hard to photograph but later I will try to image an RP (2006) that looks like it has Ebola virus...
There seems to be two types....white "milk" spots, and a darker spotting that is not that visible on direct view but shows on side lighting
<< <i>" I don't blame any grader for this problem, though it seems to affect one more than the other, but I blame this solely on the US mint. " Help me understand this please. If it affects one grader more than the others that inplicates that grading service at least in part or as contributing to the problem. How then can you SOLELY blame the mint? Seems a little contradictory. >>
Indeed my post certainly seems contradictory, but regardless of how many coins you've handled or what you have learned in this hobby thus far one can only say so much on this forum without going poof until you've had a long history of posting. (In other words, I simply tried to temper my post and hope people can read between the lines.) If you've read my comments in this thread and the pcgs slab toning of modern gold thread you'll see I've mentioned issues that few here will speak of, yet many major modern buyers are keenly aware of.
>>> ....As in pass the Koolaid!
LOL I'd like a glass of Koolaid right now . All kidding aside I do prefer the look of the slabs and the grading standards of PCGS, but I primarily try to buy with melt in mind (when it comes to modern Au/Ag coins) so most of the steals I find at shows and online are NGC or raw. I have *zero* plans to cross any slabs anytime soon and I'm quite happy to have a bit of everything including even a few ICG slabs !
>>>Believe me....ATS slab coins spot as well..
They certainly do, but not nearly as often as one's slabbed by our beloved host from what I've seen (your mileage may vary of course). I think in 20 or 30 years from now it won't really matter as the coins that were destined to spot will have turned by that time, but if you pay careful attention it's clear the process simply happens faster in pcgs plastic :. Hopefully the original poster will share pics of his ruined hoard, but if not I'll post a pic of the one piece of crap that I'm now stuck with. The fact the coin went from mint to crap in a matter of weeks really is quite shocking...
OK...so just as a person who has some knowledge of chemistry...I'm suspecting that the finished coins likely have some trace of a volatile organic compound (VOC) on their surface (oil, grease, detergent, etc.) that is likely interacting with the plastic in the slabs...as I spot (no pun intended) checked my 25 raw 2011 OGP sets last night and don't seem to have a spot among any of them. I also suspect that the VOC in question, if left in a raw setting, probably evaporates or atomizes [usually harmlessly] over time.
Now...if it IS true that this is more of a PCGS issue (vs NGC), then I would also hazard a guess that either the plastic in the two slabs are different and that is causing a direct reaction or perhaps the venting of the NGC slab is allowing the VOC to vent either more quickly or completely.
Storage in dry conditions, mostly in ziplock baggie >>
If you vacuum seal the slabbed coins, will that prevent the spots? >>
No, it just lessens the condition/s that seem to promote their formation; that is namely humidity. Poly/polyethylene will over time allow some passage of water molecules. Those who do vacuum seal them say it seems to prevent their formation/becoming visible. That is treating the symptoms and not the cause.
Now here's a basic question...does anyone know if there's a time frame before the spots become permanent (ie after they can't be "conserved/dipped/blasted" off)?
I only ask because if the answer is that "time isn't a factor" then I wouldn't be rushing to remedy this problem too long before I actually plan to sell. Or else it just might happen again.
And how will this turn of events impact the price of individual raw and sealed box sets?
<< <i>OK...so just as a person who has some knowledge of chemistry...I'm suspecting that the finished coins likely have some trace of a volatile organic compound (VOC) on their surface (oil, grease, detergent, etc.) that is likely interacting with the plastic in the slabs...as I spot (no pun intended) checked my 25 raw 2011 OGP sets last night and don't seem to have a spot among any of them. I also suspect that the VOC in question, if left in a raw setting, probably evaporates or atomizes [usually harmlessly] over time.
Now...if it IS true that this is more of a PCGS issue (vs NGC), then I would also hazard a guess that either the plastic in the two slabs are different and that is causing a direct reaction or perhaps the venting of the NGC slab is allowing the VOC to vent either more quickly or completely.
Just my 2 cents... >>
There was a poster here a number of years back who said that he had in the past worked at the Sunshine Mint in Idaho [who was and I believe still are] suppliers of silver planchets to the U. S. Mint. He said they received the rinsing aid as a powder in bags [identity confidential]. Another poster RWB stated while perusing Mint archives that he discovered that the Mint had purchased butyl cellosolve, a high boiling water soluble neutral liquid which is something akin to brake fluid.
As another poster stated in this thread and I have stated earlier, there appears to be 2 different kinds of spots. White or milky and darker tannish green, suggesting two different issues in play. The one coin that I had analyzed by a surface analytical technique called ESCA or XPS showed only the presence of chlorine. It was an ASE in a NGC slab purchased from a forum member. The usual treatments for solubilzing silver chloride sodium thiosulfate or sodium cyanide failed to remove the spots. Once the white ones form, they are currently impossible to remove and still maintain the appearance of the coin. It has also been said that you can see the spots before they become visible by using a halogen flashlight. At that point they can be fixed by dipping in either acetone or EZest although acetone will not remove silver chloride.
<< <i>Now here's a basic question...does anyone know if there's a time frame before the spots become permanent (ie after they can't be "conserved/dipped/blasted" off)?
I only ask because if the answer is that "time isn't a factor" then I wouldn't be rushing to remedy this problem too long before I actually plan to sell. Or else it just might happen again.
And how will this turn of events impact the price of individual raw and sealed box sets? >>
The time can vary from weeks to years. There is no set amount of time. Once visible, the white spots can't be removed; the brownish/greenish spots maybe. Ask PCGS about this point.
If you sell the sealed sets on eBay and the buyer opens it and finds them spotted and files a SNAD, you will be SOL and PP/eBay will probably refund his $$$. Why don't you ask PP and eBay and post their response here. Sell them on eBay AT YOUR RISK.
It would be interesting to compile data on the location and the holder and then map it. It might show some trends as to what parts of the country are more succeptable to spotting and shed some light on whether it's a storage issue, ie humidity/temperature or it's a holder issue.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>Has anyone tried contacting the Mint Director or the editors at Coin World regarding this issue? >>
...good idea! i nominate you and promise to give you all the credit for a great CW question!!
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>It would be interesting to compile data on the location and the holder and then map it. It might show some trends as to what parts of the country are more succeptable to spotting and shed some light on whether it's a storage issue, ie humidity/temperature or it's a holder issue. >>
Good idea. I thought when this came up before it was suggested location may play a role. I'm in Michigan, and have had spots..LOL...and the local dealer I referenced earlier (The Coin Cove) when I asked him about the Binder full of NGC spotted ASE's he replied: "Oh, They all do that".
I still wonder if its the holder......ngc holders don't have much of an issue, pcgs ones do. Like I said before, my friend owns pr70/ms70 buffalo sets and 2006 gold and silver sets in pcgs and ngc.......the pcgs ones all developed issues, the ngc ones did not.
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>I still wonder if its the holder......ngc holders don't have much of an issue, pcgs ones do. Like I said before, my friend owns pr70/ms70 buffalo sets and 2006 gold and silver sets in pcgs and ngc.......the pcgs ones all developed issues, the ngc ones did not. >>
People have found spotted coins in new mint tubes.
Bajjerfan I'm talking developing spots or ugly toning after being slabbed. He bought the coins spot free then a few months to a year later they start turning
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Bajjerfan I'm talking developing spots or ugly toning after being slabbed. He bought the coins spot free then a few months to a year later they start turning >>
If they are already spotted in the mint tubes, it would mean that the holders aren't the cause of the spotting. If the holders were the cause, all or most of them would spot. It is possible the holders may exacerbate the problem by trapping air inside the slabs, especially if the air is somewhat humid.
<< <i> It is possible the holders may exacerbate the problem by trapping air inside the slabs, especially if the air is somewhat humid. >>
PCGS isn't that far from the ocean. >>
The humidity in FL is much worse than Cali. >>
I strongly suspect that both buildings are well air conditioned.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I was just told that PCGS does not "clean" them as a matter of practice before they get put in the slabs. They go in exactly how they came.
Thus if they arrive with spots, they get graded taking the spots into consideration.
They do however use air to blow the slabs "clean", and the coin, before they get sealed.
So maybe this is an issue with the quality of the air they are using? I know at my work, we have different qualities of air that can be used for different operations.
If they develop spots "over time" (does 1 month qualify as "over time"?), then you can send them in for a Guarantee Submission ($25 per coin), and David hall will personally inspect and determine what happens next (downgrade & refund the difference, etc)
You sell your FS eligible SEALED sets on ebay or to a dealer.
They send them to PCGS for grading. The coins are spotted. Does PCGS 'clean' them or send them back? >>
Unless they are really bad or have other issues PCGS might call them 69s or less. You might want to get an answer from PCGS. Oops, see a couple posts up.
I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is.
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
I have several 2007-W unc ASEs with NASTY spotting in OGP (unless you're considering those bullion as well). It seems like I've heard less reports in the years since though. And definitely ASE proofs.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
Thank you epcjimi1.
Our slab is our entire business. I can assure you if this were an issue with our product it would not just be swept under the rug and ignored. Our holders have been tested and proven not to be of any danger to our customers coins. However, PCGS holders are not air tight making the encapsulated coin vulnerable to the elements if not stored properly.
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
Thank you epcjimi1.
Our slab is our entire business. I can assure you if this were an issue with our product it would not just be swept under the rug and ignored. Our holders have been tested and proven not to be of any danger to our customers coins. However, PCGS holders are not air tight making the encapsulated coin vulnerable to the elements if not stored properly. >>
I was ‘COINB0Y' with 4812 posts and ‘Expert Collector’ ranking (Joined in 2006).
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
Thank you epcjimi1.
Our slab is our entire business. I can assure you if this were an issue with our product it would not just be swept under the rug and ignored. Our holders have been tested and proven not to be of any danger to our customers coins. However, PCGS holders are not air tight making the encapsulated coin vulnerable to the elements if not stored properly. >>
Those points have been made ad nauseum in this thread and countless previous ones. IIRC spotting does not seem to be an issue with commem and special issue silver dollars. Has PCGS been in touch with the mint and/or its suppliers about this issue? It seems to me if they can get a quick answer about where coins in the 5 piece 25th anniv set were minted, they should be able to get some info about the spotting issue. Or did whoever they contacted just blow them off?
I really do not know as my place on the ladder does not allow me to attend those meetings (if any). However, I can imagine with the amount of upcoming bullion stuff the mint plans on putting out that this issue will surface a little more.
I do know that as of right now it is still only a small fraction of these spotting issues that are accuring.
after having some spot issues with pre 1965 silver proof coins that are graded before the spots develop , i have a strong belief that if air is blown on the coin just before sealing the slab ( to remove lint, dust or whatever ) , it may have some kind of water or oil contamination .
many of the american gold eagles have toned BAD in pcgs holders, none in ngc
many of my gold pandas have toned BAD in pcgs holders none in ngc!!!!!!!!!!
nuff said
Singapore & Hong Kong March/April Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838 MACAU emgworldwide@gmail.com Cell: 512.808.3197 EMERGING MARKET GROUP PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
<< <i>many of the american gold eagles have toned BAD in pcgs holders, none in ngc
many of my gold pandas have toned BAD in pcgs holders none in ngc!!!!!!!!!!
nuff said >>
"Many" doesn't tell us anything, but judging by the amount of exclamation points you used you sound very sure so thanks for your input. However, I work for the company that grades the coins, therefore I see the amount of these coins that come in and out of our facility. I also handle all of the correspondence from the people that do run into the issue.
<< <i>many of the american gold eagles have toned BAD in pcgs holders, none in ngc
many of my gold pandas have toned BAD in pcgs holders none in ngc!!!!!!!!!!
nuff said >>
"Many" doesn't tell us anything, but judging by the amount of exclamation points you used you sound very sure so thanks for your input. However, I work for the company that grades the coins, therefore I see the amount of these coins that come in and out of our facility. I also handle all of the correspondence from the people that do run into the issue.
Small fraction, nuff said. >>
But still a problem that shouldn't be ignored...not something to be swept under the rug. It costs too much to grade these things to ignore this. I'd like to hear that PCGS is working on remedying the situation even if it is not an issue with the slab.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>One would think that with all of the new Mint depts./Mint reorganization described in the current issue of CW that The Mint would make an effort to address this spotting issue with the major TPGs.
They are COLLECTOR coins. LOTS of collectors have these collector coins encapsulated by TPGs. There are even reports of coins spotting in the OGP. It's just amazing that The Mint has not done this.
Further, I think that The Mint could gain more insight into what collectors want by simply following these PCGS forums than by all the surveys and advisory boards combined many times over.
Some of this stuff seems so simple, so obvious, yet it never happens.
Rant over >>
Agreed. It really is ridiculous the Mint hasn't moved to fix these problems. >>
Firstly, they apparently don't care. Most of their customers either don't know or don't care. I remember a board member hand picking some proof ASEs from the Mint's kiosk at Union Station in D.C. The lady behind the counter commented you must be a collector.
Instead of making them themselves, I believe the mint buys the planchets ready to strike. Therefore it is incumbent upon the vendor to make sure they are properly washed and rinsed. I expect they don't care enough either.
<< <i>I feel for those that have purchased the PCGS high grade sets and now have the option of paying an addditional $25 per for a 'solution.'
Or the option to live with the results of spotting. Or to sell them 'as is.'
Or, like me, to generally avoid the graded ASE sets and singles and largely 'collect' ASE rolls where I am focused singularly on the silver value.
I appreciate the role the Mint plays in my enjoyment of this recent HOT issue and I am so thankful I only kept a few of the 2006 and 2011 Anniv. sets!
I have yet to see any spotting in my reverse 07/08's; although, they are either raw or NGC.
Thanks to all of you that have shared your experiences with spotting! I am learning.......
Miles >>
PCGS is caught between a rock and a hard spot [NPI]. They guarantee a grade for something that isn't their fault nor for which they have no control. It costs them as much $$ and grief as it costs collectors.
<< <i>Some photos would be nice, please. >>
Most spots show up better when side lit with a bright direct light. I find it very hard to photograph but later I will try to image an RP (2006) that looks like it has Ebola virus...
There seems to be two types....white "milk" spots, and a darker spotting that is not that visible on direct view but shows on side lighting
<< <i>" I don't blame any grader for this problem, though it seems to affect one more than the other, but I blame this solely on the US mint. "
Help me understand this please.
If it affects one grader more than the others that inplicates that grading service at least in part or as contributing to the problem.
How then can you SOLELY blame the mint?
Seems a little contradictory. >>
Indeed my post certainly seems contradictory, but regardless of how many coins you've handled or what you have learned in this hobby thus far one can only say so much on this forum without going poof until you've had a long history of posting. (In other words, I simply tried to temper my post and hope people can read between the lines.) If you've read my comments in this thread and the pcgs slab toning of modern gold thread you'll see I've mentioned issues that few here will speak of, yet many major modern buyers are keenly aware of.
>>> ....As in pass the Koolaid!
LOL I'd like a glass of Koolaid right now
>>>Believe me....ATS slab coins spot as well..
They certainly do, but not nearly as often as one's slabbed by our beloved host from what I've seen (your mileage may vary of course). I think in 20 or 30 years from now it won't really matter as the coins that were destined to spot will have turned by that time, but if you pay careful attention it's clear the process simply happens faster in pcgs plastic :. Hopefully the original poster will share pics of his ruined hoard, but if not I'll post a pic of the one piece of crap that I'm now stuck with. The fact the coin went from mint to crap in a matter of weeks really is quite shocking...
Hey Big A...is that an actual 2011 ASE spotted in an NGC holder...or is that picture just a generic example of bad spotting within a slab?
I only ask because I haven't heard of 2011 ASEs in NGCs spotting...yet.
Not too happy....
Now...if it IS true that this is more of a PCGS issue (vs NGC), then I would also hazard a guess that either the plastic in the two slabs are different and that is causing a direct reaction or perhaps the venting of the NGC slab is allowing the VOC to vent either more quickly or completely.
Just my 2 cents...
<< <i>Hey Big A...is that an actual 2011 ASE spotted in an NGC holder...or is that picture just a generic example of bad spotting within a slab?
I only ask because I haven't heard of 2011 ASEs in NGCs spotting...yet. >>
It's a NGC 2006 20th Annie RP69
<< <i>No spots on the 2006 nor the 2011 sets.
Storage in dry conditions, mostly in ziplock baggie >>
If you vacuum seal the slabbed coins, will that prevent the spots?
<< <i>
<< <i>No spots on the 2006 nor the 2011 sets.
Storage in dry conditions, mostly in ziplock baggie >>
If you vacuum seal the slabbed coins, will that prevent the spots? >>
No, it just lessens the condition/s that seem to promote their formation; that is namely humidity. Poly/polyethylene will over time allow some passage of water molecules. Those who do vacuum seal them say it seems to prevent their formation/becoming visible. That is treating the symptoms and not the cause.
<< <i>Some photos would be nice, please. >>
Ok, here is one. You can easily see the spotting in the right field. It was not there when I put them away a couple of months ago.
<< <i>Thats what happens when you buy that MS70 stuff.
I hate to admit this, but
I only ask because if the answer is that "time isn't a factor" then I wouldn't be rushing to remedy this problem too long before I actually plan to sell. Or else it just might happen again.
And how will this turn of events impact the price of individual raw and sealed box sets?
<< <i>OK...so just as a person who has some knowledge of chemistry...I'm suspecting that the finished coins likely have some trace of a volatile organic compound (VOC) on their surface (oil, grease, detergent, etc.) that is likely interacting with the plastic in the slabs...as I spot (no pun intended) checked my 25 raw 2011 OGP sets last night and don't seem to have a spot among any of them. I also suspect that the VOC in question, if left in a raw setting, probably evaporates or atomizes [usually harmlessly] over time.
Now...if it IS true that this is more of a PCGS issue (vs NGC), then I would also hazard a guess that either the plastic in the two slabs are different and that is causing a direct reaction or perhaps the venting of the NGC slab is allowing the VOC to vent either more quickly or completely.
Just my 2 cents... >>
There was a poster here a number of years back who said that he had in the past worked at the Sunshine Mint in Idaho [who was and I believe still are] suppliers of silver planchets to the U. S. Mint. He said they received the rinsing aid as a powder in bags [identity confidential]. Another poster RWB stated while perusing Mint archives that he discovered that the Mint had purchased butyl cellosolve, a high boiling water soluble neutral liquid which is something akin to brake fluid.
As another poster stated in this thread and I have stated earlier, there appears to be 2 different kinds of spots. White or milky and darker tannish green, suggesting two different issues in play. The one coin that I had analyzed by a surface analytical technique called ESCA or XPS showed only the presence of chlorine. It was an ASE in a NGC slab purchased from a forum member. The usual treatments for solubilzing silver chloride sodium thiosulfate or sodium cyanide failed to remove the spots. Once the white ones form, they are currently impossible to remove and still maintain the appearance of the coin. It has also been said that you can see the spots before they become visible by using a halogen flashlight. At that point they can be fixed by dipping in either acetone or EZest although acetone will not remove silver chloride.
If true, then there's going to need to be lots of purchases made on the secondary market to replace spotted slabbed coins.
Which then raises another question...does anyone know if NGC dips ASEs as a matter of routine before slabbing?
<< <i><<Once the white ones form, they are currently impossible to remove and still maintain the appearance of the coin.>>
If true, then there's going to need to be lots of purchases made on the secondary market to replace spotted slabbed coins.
Which then raises another question...does anyone know if NGC dips ASEs as a matter of routine before slabbing? >>
I'd ask NGC directly.
<< <i>Now here's a basic question...does anyone know if there's a time frame before the spots become permanent (ie after they can't be "conserved/dipped/blasted" off)?
I only ask because if the answer is that "time isn't a factor" then I wouldn't be rushing to remedy this problem too long before I actually plan to sell. Or else it just might happen again.
And how will this turn of events impact the price of individual raw and sealed box sets? >>
The time can vary from weeks to years. There is no set amount of time. Once visible, the white spots can't be removed; the brownish/greenish spots maybe. Ask PCGS about this point.
If you sell the sealed sets on eBay and the buyer opens it and finds them spotted and files a SNAD, you will be SOL and PP/eBay will probably refund his $$$. Why don't you ask PP and eBay and post their response here. Sell them on eBay AT YOUR RISK.
<< <i>Has anyone tried contacting the Mint Director or the editors at Coin World regarding this issue? >>
...good idea! i nominate you and promise to give you all the credit for a great CW question!!
<< <i>It would be interesting to compile data on the location and the holder and then map it. It might show some trends as to what parts of the country are more succeptable to spotting and shed some light on whether it's a storage issue, ie humidity/temperature or it's a holder issue. >>
Good idea. I thought when this came up before it was suggested location may play a role. I'm in Michigan, and have had spots..LOL...and the local dealer I referenced earlier (The Coin Cove) when I asked him about the Binder full of NGC spotted ASE's he replied: "Oh, They all do that".
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>I still wonder if its the holder......ngc holders don't have much of an issue, pcgs ones do. Like I said before, my friend owns pr70/ms70 buffalo sets and 2006 gold and silver sets in pcgs and ngc.......the pcgs ones all developed issues, the ngc ones did not. >>
People have found spotted coins in new mint tubes.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Bajjerfan I'm talking developing spots or ugly toning after being slabbed. He bought the coins spot free then a few months to a year later they start turning >>
If they are already spotted in the mint tubes, it would mean that the holders aren't the cause of the spotting. If the holders were the cause, all or most of them would spot. It is possible the holders may exacerbate the problem by trapping air inside the slabs, especially if the air is somewhat humid.
<< <i> It is possible the holders may exacerbate the problem by trapping air inside the slabs, especially if the air is somewhat humid. >>
PCGS isn't that far from the ocean.
<< <i>
<< <i> It is possible the holders may exacerbate the problem by trapping air inside the slabs, especially if the air is somewhat humid. >>
PCGS isn't that far from the ocean. >>
The humidity in FL is much worse than Cali.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> It is possible the holders may exacerbate the problem by trapping air inside the slabs, especially if the air is somewhat humid. >>
PCGS isn't that far from the ocean. >>
The humidity in FL is much worse than Cali. >>
I strongly suspect that both buildings are well air conditioned.
Store them in the same spot for a couple years then see the result.
You sell your FS eligible SEALED sets on ebay or to a dealer.
They send them to PCGS for grading. The coins are spotted. Does PCGS 'clean' them or send them back?
<< <i>Does the mint/PCGS or NGC attempt any sort of a vacuum or are the holders and slabs just airtight? >>
I would hope it was a "dust free" room. But who knows the mint may just blow some lint particles in the holder just for kicks.
Thus if they arrive with spots, they get graded taking the spots into consideration.
They do however use air to blow the slabs "clean", and the coin, before they get sealed.
So maybe this is an issue with the quality of the air they are using? I know at my work, we have different qualities of air that can be used for different operations.
If they develop spots "over time" (does 1 month qualify as "over time"?), then you can send them in for a Guarantee Submission ($25 per coin), and David hall will personally inspect and determine what happens next (downgrade & refund the difference, etc)
Mark
<< <i>
<< <i>Just what she said.I think they would clean easy though. >>
Does anyone know how they are going to clean them? >>
they "dip" them. with what or how i don't know.
does PCGS still handle coins with bare fingers? how are they handled ATS?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Just what she said.I think they would clean easy though. >>
Does anyone know how they are going to clean them? >>
they "dip" them. with what or how i don't know.
does PCGS still handle coins with bare fingers? how are they handled ATS? >>
Coins are always handled with bare hands to reduce the risk of dropping them. They are held by the edges though, obviously.
-Paul
<< <i>Which happens:
You sell your FS eligible SEALED sets on ebay or to a dealer.
They send them to PCGS for grading. The coins are spotted. Does PCGS 'clean' them or send them back? >>
Unless they are really bad or have other issues PCGS might call them 69s or less. You might want to get an answer from PCGS. Oops, see a couple posts up.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is.
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
I have several 2007-W unc ASEs with NASTY spotting in OGP (unless you're considering those bullion as well). It seems like I've heard less reports in the years since though.
And definitely ASE proofs.
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
Thank you epcjimi1.
Our slab is our entire business. I can assure you if this were an issue with our product it would not just be swept under the rug and ignored. Our holders have been tested and proven not to be of any danger to our customers coins. However, PCGS holders are not air tight making the encapsulated coin vulnerable to the elements if not stored properly.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
Thank you epcjimi1.
Our slab is our entire business. I can assure you if this were an issue with our product it would not just be swept under the rug and ignored. Our holders have been tested and proven not to be of any danger to our customers coins. However, PCGS holders are not air tight making the encapsulated coin vulnerable to the elements if not stored properly. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the milkspotting originates from contaminants still present on the surface when the coin leaves the mint. Over time, the contaminants, whatever they are, react and the phenomena occurrs.
I don't think it's the TPG plastic or the gasket.
There's ATB bullion out there with milk spots as well as tons of ASE bullion with milkspots without plastic as others have pointed out.
I think the mint treats its bullion in a more callous way than it's numismatic releases. I haven't heard complants about US Mint numi releases milkspotting.
I think the thought process at the mint is "it's just bullion". The mint probably doesn't understand what all the fuss is. >>
Thank you epcjimi1.
Our slab is our entire business. I can assure you if this were an issue with our product it would not just be swept under the rug and ignored. Our holders have been tested and proven not to be of any danger to our customers coins. However, PCGS holders are not air tight making the encapsulated coin vulnerable to the elements if not stored properly. >>
Those points have been made ad nauseum in this thread and countless previous ones. IIRC spotting does not seem to be an issue with commem and special issue silver dollars. Has PCGS been in touch with the mint and/or its suppliers about this issue? It seems to me if they can get a quick answer about where coins in the 5 piece 25th anniv set were minted, they should be able to get some info about the spotting issue. Or did whoever they contacted just blow them off?
I do know that as of right now it is still only a small fraction of these spotting issues that are accuring.
Many silver panda coins from China have developed milk spots as have the Historical Figures commemoratives from China.
Do the Chinese milk spots also contain talc and plaster...?
Sorry, but that was too easy...
many of my gold pandas have toned BAD in pcgs holders none in ngc!!!!!!!!!!
nuff said
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
<< <i>many of the american gold eagles have toned BAD in pcgs holders, none in ngc
many of my gold pandas have toned BAD in pcgs holders none in ngc!!!!!!!!!!
nuff said >>
"Many" doesn't tell us anything, but judging by the amount of exclamation points you used you sound very sure so thanks for your input. However, I work for the company that grades the coins, therefore I see the amount of these coins that come in and out of our facility. I also handle all of the correspondence from the people that do run into the issue.
Small fraction, nuff said.
<< <i>
<< <i>many of the american gold eagles have toned BAD in pcgs holders, none in ngc
many of my gold pandas have toned BAD in pcgs holders none in ngc!!!!!!!!!!
nuff said >>
"Many" doesn't tell us anything, but judging by the amount of exclamation points you used you sound very sure so thanks for your input. However, I work for the company that grades the coins, therefore I see the amount of these coins that come in and out of our facility. I also handle all of the correspondence from the people that do run into the issue.
Small fraction, nuff said. >>
But still a problem that shouldn't be ignored...not something to be swept under the rug. It costs too much to grade these things to ignore this. I'd like to hear that PCGS is working on remedying the situation even if it is not an issue with the slab.