1921D superintendent engraved Morgans

morgansforever · February 1, 2012 8:40AM

Anyone have an example? How many were produced? Have these been graded if so what's the highest grade?
I've heard 100 were engraved, and the first few were stolen. Any info and or pics would be appreciated.

savoyspecial · February 1, 2012 9:03AM

Only 12 were engraved even though the original plab was to engrave the first 100. I have a good bit of info on these but I will have to dig it out. Julian has one in his inventory. Seems like I remember that all are accounted for but one.

savoyspecial · February 1, 2012 9:06AM

Oh yeah, just remembered this: I have a news clipping that mentions one being found at a bingo parlor (in the 70s I believe)

coinkid855 · February 1, 2012 9:11AM

I've always wanted one of these!! They're so cool!

-Paul

MisterBungle · February 1, 2012 9:14AM

Superior sold two of the '21-D Morgans with the engraving,
"___ Released From The First 100 Ever Coined At Denver
Mint. Thomas Annear Supt." in the Wayne Miller sale of
Jan. 27, 28, 1986.

The ___ held the coin number 1 through 12. The sale
had number 6 and number 12.

~

MisterBungle · February 1, 2012 9:19AM

<< I've always wanted one of these!! They're so cool!

-Paul >>

-----
That's quite an increase in value, as the same coin
sold for $3410.00 in the Wayne Miller sale.

~

morgansforever · February 1, 2012 9:22AM

Thanks for the info all, guess I'll have to dream of owning one, 20k is a bit out of reach.
Is there a TPG that will assign a grade other than geuine?

illini420 · February 1, 2012 9:27AM

Surprised PCGS didn't use the First Strike label on that one...

PerryHall · February 1, 2012 9:37AM

Anyone know what these sell for? I imagine they are quite expensive.

crypto79 · February 1, 2012 9:51AM

Broken CC has one too

MisterBungle · February 1, 2012 10:00AM

<< Broken CC has one too >>

-----
Thanks, I didn't know.

Here It Is

~

AnkurJ · February 1, 2012 10:50AM

Personally I feel they are overvalued at what is asked for them. In my opinion they should be worth $10k tops.

Julian · February 1, 2012 11:25AM

#'s 3-12 were actually engraved. I am pretty sure that they have all been discovered.

The first two were not engraved and given to Colorado institutions. They have both since disappeared.

messydesk · February 1, 2012 11:28AM

<< Surprised PCGS didn't use the First Strike label on that one...

>>

Julian forgot to pay the extra $18.

savoyspecial · February 1, 2012 11:28AM

Julian is absolutely correct! I had forgotten that about the first two issued, nice work

AnkurJ · February 1, 2012 12:06PM

Taken from Numismaster.com

Roster of engraved 1921-D silver dollars as of October 2009:

3. In Colorado collection in 1989, authenticated by ANACS in 1982. Sold by Heritage at 1996 ANA Signature Sale, graded MS-60. Price realized: $4,675.

4. Found at a bingo game in Illinois in 1989. Graded MS-64 by NGC. A photo of this coin can be found at the Brokencc.com Web site.

5. Bowers and Merena, Miller Collection auction, November 1992. “R” in “DENVER” originally engraved as “D.” “MINT” engraved as “MIINT.” Graded AU-55. Unsold.

6. Superior, Hoagy Carmichael and Wayne Miller collections auction, January 1986. Graded MS-65. Sold for $5,500.

7. Unknown to author as of October 2009.

8. Found in circulation in Tennessee, 1935. Owned by an Alabama collector as of 1973.

9. Tidewater Coin Club auction, 1961 or 1962. See below. Offered for sale in a Bowers and Ruddy “Rare Coin Review” in the early 1970s. Sold by Heritage at the 1997 ANA Signature Sale, graded MS-60. Price realized: $2,990.

10. Tidewater Coin Club auction, 1961 or 1962. “1st” engraved as “ISI.” This and previous coin sold to Charles Taliaferro for a total of $15. Coin #9 was resold to a club member for $7.50. This coin was the subject of an article in the Sept. 9, 1978 Numismatic News by Alan Herbert, an attempt to locate and register the genuine specimens.

11. Seen by dealer Julian Leidman in June 2007.

12. Superior, Hoagy Carmichael and Wayne Miller collections auction, January 1986. “L” in ‘RELEASED’ originally engraved as “E.” Graded MS-65. Sold for $3,410. Sold by Heritage Numismatic Auctions at the Long Beach Expo, February 1989, graded MS-64/64; price was $2,300. Offered for sale by Julian Leidman at the ANA World’s Fair of Money in Baltimore, August 2008, the first specimen seen by this author. Offered at the Bowers and Merena auction of June 2009, and went unsold. This coin was part of the Julian Leidman inventory that was stolen in October 2009 and then recovered

AnkurJ · February 1, 2012 12:32PM

<< 

<< Personally I feel they are overvalued at what is asked for them. In my opinion they should be worth $10k tops. >>

I guess Ankur isn't looking to buy one because if he were I am darn certain he wouldn't state that he thought it was worth a whopping $10k, he would be negotiating Anjur style and offer what it went for in '86 and then make his last offer '86 price plus 10%. come on Ankur save your extensively researched valuations for coins that you are gunning for

>>

I offerred $12k on Julians but it was declined. I am not hurry. If one comes up for auction, I will buy it. The fact that it went unsold at auction in 2009 speaks volumes to me at least. One sold for $5500 in 1986. In 1996 for $4700, in 1997 for $3000. You do the math and see if my offer was fair.

Lakesammman · February 1, 2012 10:57PM

Thanks for the post - had no clue they even existed!

oneor11 · February 1, 2012 11:01PM

<< Thanks for the post - had no clue they even existed!

>>

Ditto thanks. I learn a ton in these forums.

lordmarcovan · February 1, 2012 11:04PM

VERY cool. Much cooler than some ol' First Strike label.

ricko · February 1, 2012 11:08PM

Interesting... I wonder what happened to #1 and #2?? And the information above says they were not engraved...how was it done?? Inquiring minds want to know...Cheers, RickO

blu62vette · February 2, 2012 12:10AM

I imaged one last year, very similar but was one of the first ten coined from the SF mint in 1878.

mkman123 · February 2, 2012 3:43AM

With 12k I would buy a whole lotta morgans vs one.

Aegis3 · February 2, 2012 5:14AM

<< I imaged one last year, very similar but was one of the first ten coined from the SF mint in 1878. >>

Interesting. I seem to recall that Eliasberg had the first 1878-S, though I'd have to check the catalog. Didn't know of any others.

Edit: after looking at the catalog, it was engraved/stamped to say it was one of the first 10, not necessarily the first.

MisterBungle · February 2, 2012 6:57AM

"Interesting... I wonder what happened to #1 and #2?? And the information above says they were not engraved...how was it done?? Inquiring minds want to know...Cheers, RickO"
-----
According to the auction catalog of the 1986 Superior sale of two of
these coins, the director of the Philadelphia Mint sent a note to the
director of the Denver Mint asking for samples of the new dollar coin.

Two were sent, without engravings, and were in turn given to the
two US Senators from Colorado. These two were given, one to
the "Colorado School Of Mines" who later said they have no
record of having received the coin, but thought that someone in
management may have taken it home as a keepsake, and one to
the "Colorado State Historical Society". This last one was stolen
in 1980.

Numbers 3 through 12 (10 coins) were engraved as has been
shown, and no numbers higher than 12 are known, or at least
were known at the time of the auction.

~

Lakesammman · February 2, 2012 7:21AM

...."Colorado State Historical Society". This last one was stolen in 1980.

Sounds like CO is a bad place to have a money museum.

MisterBungle · February 2, 2012 8:09PM

Another thing of minor interest is why one (#6) sold
for $5500.00 in the 1986 sale, and the other (#12),
one lot later, sold for $3410.00.

They were both listed as MS65, with #6 having an
"attractive light sunset toning on both sides", and
the #12 coin listed as having an "attractive light
grayish-violet toning on both sides".

The pictures in the catalog are small and black and
white, so are of little value, although Julian's photos
of his 12 coin in the eBay link above are very good.

Could be that the 6 coin was in better condition, or
that it had better toning, or that someone wanted
the earlier numbered coin, or maybe it was just the
way auctions work, with one less bidder for the 12
coin.

I don't know, but it would be nice to see both coins
well photographed and side by side.

~

blu62vette · February 9, 2012 11:36AM

<< 

<< I imaged one last year, very similar but was one of the first ten coined from the SF mint in 1878. >>

Interesting. I seem to recall that Eliasberg had the first 1878-S, though I'd have to check the catalog. Didn't know of any others.

Edit: after looking at the catalog, it was engraved/stamped to say it was one of the first 10, not necessarily the first. >>

That is what this one says. I should be able to post some images soon.

MrEureka · February 9, 2012 12:39PM

Personally I feel they are overvalued at what is asked for them. In my opinion they should be worth $10k tops.

Ankur - While you are entitled to your opinion, publicly bashing the seller's (arguably reasonable) asking price is "uncool", especially when it's a coin that you have been trying to buy. Then again, if you are trying to convince the world not to buy the coin so that maybe you can get it cheaper at a later date, well, way to go! (BTW, I also tried to buy the coin from Julian, but we couldn't get together on price.)

Sonorandesertrat · February 9, 2012 1:57PM

<< 

<< 

<< Personally I feel they are overvalued at what is asked for them. In my opinion they should be worth $10k tops. >>

I guess Ankur isn't looking to buy one because if he were I am darn certain he wouldn't state that he thought it was worth a whopping $10k, he would be negotiating Anjur style and offer what it went for in '86 and then make his last offer '86 price plus 10%. come on Ankur save your extensively researched valuations for coins that you are gunning for

>>

I offerred $12k on Julians but it was declined. I am not hurry. If one comes up for auction, I will buy it. The fact that it went unsold at auction in 2009 speaks volumes to me at least. One sold for $5500 in 1986. In 1996 for $4700, in 1997 for $3000. You do the math and see if my offer was fair. >>

Those auction results are not really meaningful, certainly not one no-sale in 2009. Even the Eliasberg specimen of the 1913 Liberty nickel failed to sell at auction not many years ago. Perhaps trying to put the coin into some sense of perspective with respect to other Morgans would help. How much is a nice 65 cameo proof (say, 1881) going for in this market? Is it worth what several of the more common proofs would bring? Probably. If I were putting together a high-end set of Morgans, I would strongly consider getting one of those 1921-D engraved coins. FWIW, I have never done any business with JL.

dcarr · April 14, 2023 11:33PM

@AnkurJ said:
Taken from Numismaster.com

Roster of engraved 1921-D silver dollars as of October 2009:

In Colorado collection in 1989, authenticated by ANACS in 1982. Sold by Heritage at 1996 ANA Signature Sale, graded MS-60. Price realized: $4,675.

Found at a bingo game in Illinois in 1989. Graded MS-64 by NGC. A photo of this coin can be found at the Brokencc.com Web site.

Bowers and Merena, Miller Collection auction, November 1992. “R” in “DENVER” originally engraved as “D.” “MINT” engraved as “MIINT.” Graded AU-55. Unsold.

Superior, Hoagy Carmichael and Wayne Miller collections auction, January 1986. Graded MS-65. Sold for $5,500.

Unknown to author as of October 2009.

Found in circulation in Tennessee, 1935. Owned by an Alabama collector as of 1973.

Tidewater Coin Club auction, 1961 or 1962. See below. Offered for sale in a Bowers and Ruddy “Rare Coin Review” in the early 1970s. Sold by Heritage at the 1997 ANA Signature Sale, graded MS-60. Price realized: $2,990.

Tidewater Coin Club auction, 1961 or 1962. “1st” engraved as “ISI.” This and previous coin sold to Charles Taliaferro for a total of $15. Coin #9 was resold to a club member for $7.50. This coin was the subject of an article in the Sept. 9, 1978 Numismatic News by Alan Herbert, an attempt to locate and register the genuine specimens.

Seen by dealer Julian Leidman in June 2007.

Superior, Hoagy Carmichael and Wayne Miller collections auction, January 1986. “L” in ‘RELEASED’ originally engraved as “E.” Graded MS-65. Sold for $3,410. Sold by Heritage Numismatic Auctions at the Long Beach Expo, February 1989, graded MS-64/64; price was $2,300. Offered for sale by Julian Leidman at the ANA World’s Fair of Money in Baltimore, August 2008, the first specimen seen by this author. Offered at the Bowers and Merena auction of June 2009, and went unsold. This coin was part of the Julian Leidman inventory that was stolen in October 2009 and then recovered

.

************** NOTE : OLD THREAD RESURRECTION *************

.

I tried to find this roster on numismaster.com, but I was unsuccessful.

I see that #9 sold at Heritage Auctions in April 2014 for $11,867.50 .
And #3 sold at Heritage Auctions in June 2014 for $13,512.50 .

The whereabouts of #7 is now known. Here it is:

CaptHenway · April 15, 2023 6:53AM

Lucky #7!

A bit of trivia. Even though the Denver Mint was only opened for coining in 1906, its refinery was completely rebuilt over the period of late 1920-early 1923. During this time the Mint struck no gold, and its silver refining needs were met by a private refinery in Leadville, CO.

dcarr · April 15, 2023 5:26PM

@CaptHenway said:
Lucky #7!

A bit of trivia. Even though the Denver Mint was only opened for coining in 1906, its refinery was completely rebuilt over the period of late 1920-early 1923. During this time the Mint struck no gold, and its silver refining needs were met by a private refinery in Leadville, CO.

Interesting. Is the name of the Leadville refinery known ?

CaptHenway · April 15, 2023 6:12PM

@dcarr said:

@CaptHenway said:
Lucky #7!

A bit of trivia. Even though the Denver Mint was only opened for coining in 1906, its refinery was completely rebuilt over the period of late 1920-early 1923. During this time the Mint struck no gold, and its silver refining needs were met by a private refinery in Leadville, CO.

Interesting. Is the name of the Leadville refinery known ?

The document I have does not give the name.

dcarr · April 15, 2023 7:13PM

@CaptHenway said:

@dcarr said:

@CaptHenway said:
Lucky #7!

A bit of trivia. Even though the Denver Mint was only opened for coining in 1906, its refinery was completely rebuilt over the period of late 1920-early 1923. During this time the Mint struck no gold, and its silver refining needs were met by a private refinery in Leadville, CO.

Interesting. Is the name of the Leadville refinery known ?

The document I have does not give the name.

It might be possible to figure it out with some research.
I might give that a try when I have some time.

dcarr · April 15, 2023 8:31PM

dcarr · April 17, 2023 4:29PM

@dcarr said:

@CaptHenway said:

@dcarr said:

@CaptHenway said:
Lucky #7!

A bit of trivia. Even though the Denver Mint was only opened for coining in 1906, its refinery was completely rebuilt over the period of late 1920-early 1923. During this time the Mint struck no gold, and its silver refining needs were met by a private refinery in Leadville, CO.

Interesting. Is the name of the Leadville refinery known ?

The document I have does not give the name.

It might be possible to figure it out with some research.
I might give that a try when I have some time.

I did a quick bit of research (more needed).
One potential candidate is ASARCO (American Smelting and Refining Company).
They had a fairly large operation in Leadville for a number of years.

CaptHenway · April 17, 2023 4:36PM

@dcarr said:

@dcarr said:

@CaptHenway said:

@dcarr said:

@CaptHenway said:
Lucky #7!

A bit of trivia. Even though the Denver Mint was only opened for coining in 1906, its refinery was completely rebuilt over the period of late 1920-early 1923. During this time the Mint struck no gold, and its silver refining needs were met by a private refinery in Leadville, CO.

Interesting. Is the name of the Leadville refinery known ?

The document I have does not give the name.

It might be possible to figure it out with some research.
I might give that a try when I have some time.

I did a quick bit of research (more needed).
One potential candidate is ASARCO (American Smelting and Refining Company).
They had a fairly large operation in Leadville for a number of years.

There must be something in the Denver Mint’s correspondence files for 1920-1923 that would say.

I wonder how it was shipped? By rail down to Pueblo and then up the Arkansas River and Vice versa?

1921D superintendent engraved Morgans

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