<< <i>I wonder if the BST board is still the best way to sell these sets? I have two unopened 2011 ASE boxes of 5 sets each. Those fees in ebay just kill me. >>
Probably... Email Danny and Mitch/WC to see what they offer you and then decide if it's worth the hassle of selling on eBay to make just a tiny bit more. Personally whenever I finally sell a case I'll mostly likely sell to one of the guys above or MCM/Apmex etc. as I definitely don't want to receive the funds via paypal. The 20k yearly limit is a bummer to be sure... :
I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<<I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??>>
Unless, of course, if that mixed bag of a set is untimately worth $2k or more one day...but that's why they call it gambling.
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants?? >>
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants?? >>
Agreed you really have to get lucky and hit a 70 on one of the two keys.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants?? >>
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.
I have a "mixed" set, 3 MS69, and 2 MS70, with one of those MS70 being the Rev Proof.
I've decided to sell those two MS70 coins, buy 2 MS69 coins to replace them to have a set with all the same MS69 grade.
would you agree? or would it be better to try and buy the 3 missing MS70 to make a MS70 set?
Problem is, by the time I buy the missing three MS70 (one of them would be the "S"), I'll be close to spending what I would have for a complete 70 set.
<< <i>I have a "mixed" set, 3 MS69, and 2 MS70, with one of those MS70 being the Rev Proof.
I've decided to sell those two MS70 coins, buy 2 MS69 coins to replace them to have a set with all the same MS69 grade.
would you agree? or would it be better to try and buy the 3 missing MS70 to make a MS70 set?
Problem is, by the time I buy the missing three MS70 (one of them would be the "S"), I'll be close to spending what I would have for a complete 70 set.
Mark >>
I have found out the same thing. I have a PCGS FS set that is all 69's except the RP which is a 70. I have tried to get a decent price on a 69 RP but haven't been very successful at this point.
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants?? >>
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs.
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants?? >>
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs. >>
To me a sealed box of 5 sets is equal in value to about 4 and a half PCGS 69 sets and a couple of coins graded PCGS 70, less grading fees, because that's they way they've been apparently grading them for the common folk lately. But apparently the sealed boxes are worth much more to others. Perhaps the current buyers are sending them for grading at NGC? I doubt that because it seems the PCGS FS cutoff is relevant in pricing. If that is the case, maybe it's just the bulk submitters buying up boxes...
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants?? >>
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs. >>
Like I said, it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. But to compare a graded 69 set to a picked over open set is REALLY FLAWED. But, you have your opinion and I have mine. An open set can never be a FS set nor can it be considered a complete 25th Anniversary set. Only two coins can be graded Plain-Jane 25th coins. Now, before the flames start about the FS label, we all know there is a following for these labels and in most cases, they bring a premium over the Plain-Jane labels, though one person on here claims otherwise. Again, when you can buy both keys in a FS 70 grade for around $1k, give or take $100, whay pay $900 for a sealed box and end up with a 62 - pop1.
Raw sets on the market will never (or at least should never) trade for more than graded PCGS/NGC 69 sets. Anyone can take a PCGS/NGC 69 set and a hammer and turn a 69 set into a raw set... I'm sure that's done quite a bit, especially with those 68 and lower coins...
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants?? >>
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs. >>
Like I said, it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. But to compare a graded 69 set to a picked over open set is REALLY FLAWED. But, you have your opinion and I have mine. An open set can never be a FS set nor can it be considered a complete 25th Anniversary set. Only two coins can be graded Plain-Jane 25th coins. Now, before the flames start about the FS label, we all know there is a following for these labels and in most cases, they bring a premium over the Plain-Jane labels, though one person on here claims otherwise. Again, when you can buy both keys in a FS 70 grade for around $1k, give or take $100, whay pay $900 for a sealed box and end up with a 62 - pop1. >>
And from the shared submissions thread there are 68's sprinkled in too. The 68's is what prompted me to sell my sealed box of 5. I couldn't have handled it had either key graded a 68.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>And from the shared submissions thread there are 68's sprinkled in too. The 68's is what prompted me to sell my sealed box of 5. I couldn't have handled it had either key graded a 68. >>
And, if you look at the Pop reports, there are some even lower. Some are down to 65's. I assume they must have been rattle boxes. But, you also have to consider each time they are shipped, the more chance you have what you ship will turn into a rattle box.
I'll bet if it were possible to separate those who submitted thru the mail/Fed Ex to PCGS, vs those who submitted to PCGS at a show (like I did), you would find that those like me don't have anything lower than a 69, which is what I have. I was able to open the box at the PCGS table, make sure the rattlers were not wrecked (& remove them from submission), and only submit those that were deserving a grade.
Luckily I only had one rattler out of the box of 5, and I was able to look at it with my loupe to ensure it wasn't dinged up before I submitted it. If it was dinged up, I wouldn't have submitted it for a MS65 grade.
<< <i>I wonder if the BST board is still the best way to sell these sets? I have two unopened 2011 ASE boxes of 5 sets each. Those fees in ebay just kill me. >>
Why would you wonder that? Let's see Ebay numbers approaching 4,700, less fees leaves approx 4400 vs a sale on the bst at 4K...I'd rather take the 4,400.
Now let assume unthinkable - that BO5 will yield 3 full PCGS 70s and 2 PCGS 69s
I assume 70 sets sell for $1500 gross it's $4500, and 69 sells for $750 gross add another $1500
The total gross proceeds are $6000 that after fees/shipping etc bring net maybe $5500-5600
Lots of work for this $250-$350 profit and roughly 5% return
And that is assuming 60% 70 ratio. Otherwise it's a loss.
What am I missing? >>
That those submitters are banking on much more than 3 sets of MS 70's out of a box of 5. >>
That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets.
If values were equal (within a 100) then sell on e-bay.......BUT remember there are always some scammers out there that might tell you they received 4 sets instead of 5.........OR might complain about loose coins...and if you have to take a box back after it has been opened you might end up with a bunch of picked over coins that didn't make the grade from someone else...........just some things to think about.........seems like the guys that are buying these would step up if you really needed them too..................IMO
<< <i>If that is the case, maybe it's just the bulk submitters buying up boxes... >>
>>
+1
For what it's worth, while lots of folks have been debating whether to sell their boxes based on how high they go, have you seen a single post from anyone other than a dealer (or maybe a flipper) looking to buy boxes at these levels? I haven't seen a single post from an individual collector thinking about buying a sealed box over $4000 in order to spend $1250 to have it graded, in order to try his luck at the grading roulette wheel.
So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
I think bulk submissions are always given discounts depending on how big the submission is.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please...
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
<< <i>If values were equal (within a 100) then sell on e-bay.......BUT remember there are always some scammers out there that might tell you they received 4 sets instead of 5.........OR might complain about loose coins...and if you have to take a box back after it has been opened you might end up with a bunch of picked over coins that didn't make the grade from someone else...........just some things to think about.........seems like the guys that are buying these would step up if you really needed them too..................IMO >>
I'd agree with that, even when you think you're safe. we had a deal with a buyer that had 2 accounts. One was his buyer account, the other his big ego 20K+ feedback seller account. USPS showed delivery attempted with notice left. Had a nice safe feeling becuase I knew who this guy was, + his feedback and write up made him sound like a saint, and he couldn't hide from me. Well he tried to hide, ignored all messages, and had somehow got his mail guy to hand over multiple boxes of 5 without obtaining a signature....This squirrel was going to make an item not received claim...A phone call set him straight...But again you're right, ya never know who you'll run into...made all the more worse by selling a box that you haven't opened.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
For what it's worth, all I was trying to do was state what Shiny might be missing. My response did not in any way suggest the grading results were any different than what he/she was assuming (60% 70s) or that the prices of the graded sets differed in a material way. Shiny did not understand the economics of a possible 5% return, assuming that 60% 70s were achieved. I chimed in that I thought, although did not know for sure (by saying "incorrectly, I believe") that the dealers buying boxes for $4000 and submitting them for grading were not paying $1250 to have them graded. If that's correct, and I'm pretty sure that it is, that is what Shiny is missing. I did not say, and did not mean to imply, any more or any less.
Hello, Most casual collectors are not on these boards........most don't even know of a BST.......The sets that are being sold on e-bay are probably (my guess) the casual collector base...........WC and the other have been on the boards for quite sometime now not just with these sets..............This mornings total members of record on this forum was 34200...........you cannot possibly have all the collectors on one forum..........The sell boards on other forums probably have their share of listings for these sets............
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
By the way, PCGS certainly has disclosed what signature (and signature flag) labels cost, and it IS $250 per set, for you and me. I just cannot believe, and nobody in the know has stated otherwise, that big customers pay the same price as small fry. If that were the case, then Shiny would be right, and dealers would not be paying north of $4000 per box of 5 in the hopes of clearing $300 on a $5000 investment, with all of the associated risk. For the record, I have absolutely no problem with any business, even PCGS, giving quantity discounts to its best customers. Massive quantities of toilet paper cost less at Costco than single rolls at my grocery, and I don't have a problem with that, either.
<< <i> Coins101 said:Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
>>
Coins101 I have no doubt you're a great guy so please don't turn this into a peeing contest, BUT don't tell me to read all the posts before posting when I simply called you out for what is printed on the page. *YOU*, coins101 stated that NJcoin said: and better grades than us small times pickers
I just reread every single post by NJcoin in this thread. Show me where NJcoin said the bolded quote above and I'll send you a free silver eagle. Please be specific in your reply and show me his *exact* post in this thread where he said the big guys get better grades. You took the time to tell me to "read all the posts", however I just re-read them and I can't find what you're talking about. Show us what you're talking about please...
*EDIT -- I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational, but I was told to read "all the posts" and after re-reading them I still can't find the quote you're referencing. I believe you, but I would like to see the post you're referring to as I don't see it.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
By the way, PCGS certainly has disclosed what signature (and signature flag) labels cost, and it IS $250 per set, for you and me. I just cannot believe, and nobody in the know has stated otherwise, that big customers pay the same price as small fry. If that were the case, then Shiny would be right, and dealers would not be paying north of $4000 per box of 5 in the hopes of clearing $300 on a $5000 investment, with all of the associated risk. For the record, I have absolutely no problem with any business, even PCGS, giving quantity discounts to its best customers. Massive quantities of toilet paper cost less at Costco than single rolls at my grocery, and I don't have a problem with that, either. >>
You are right, they do disclose the price for the Signature type of labels. I stand corrected and further, would like to state I didn't mean to insult you or anyone else on here. I only for clarification.
<< <i>Hello, Most casual collectors are not on these boards........most don't even know of a BST.......The sets that are being sold on e-bay are probably (my guess) the casual collector base...........WC and the other have been on the boards for quite sometime now not just with these sets..............This mornings total members of record on this forum was 34200...........you cannot possibly have all the collectors on one forum..........The sell boards on other forums probably have their share of listings for these sets............ >>
Point taken, but I think the give and take on the boards is representative of what's going on outside. Based on what I see on the boards, I have a strong feeling that it's dealers like WC who are the buyers, even on eBay. I never thought the entire collector population (or even the entire knowledgeable collector population) was represented on this one board, but I do think the conversation is representative.
I strongly doubt that many casual collectors who missed the sets at $300 from the mint are paying $4500 for a box of 5 on eBay in order to try their luck at the grading game. In fact, I am almost certain that I am right, based on the price action to date, as it correlates almost exactly with dealer postings on BST. In the beginning, dealers (probably including the large online and TV sellers) were gobbling up sealed boxes, and prices raced right up to $4500. Then they sat back, waiting for their sets to come back from the graders, and the sealed box prices collapsed to around $3000. Where were all the casual collectors then? I think they were selling, just as they were at the top.
Then the graded sets flooded the market, and 70s that started around $3000 dropped like a rock all the way down to $1200. Now those prices are heading back up along with the sealed boxes. Reasonable minds can differ, and I can't really prove I'm right, but the price movements to date tell me that the graded set market is a retail market (where casual collectors are buyers and dealers and more knowledgeable collectors are sellers), and the sealed set market is a wholesale market where casual collectors and others lucky enough to get their hands on sealed sets are sellers and dealers are buyers, using them as raw material with which to make graded sets to place in their inventory to sell to the casual collector.
To the extent I am wrong, Shiny is a million percent right since the retail costs of grading, combined with the lack of access to the law of averages that comes into play when large numbers of coins are graded at once, practically guarantee that a casual collector buying a box of 5 for for $4000+ and then grading them and incurring the costs of selling them will lose money.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
By the way, PCGS certainly has disclosed what signature (and signature flag) labels cost, and it IS $250 per set, for you and me. I just cannot believe, and nobody in the know has stated otherwise, that big customers pay the same price as small fry. If that were the case, then Shiny would be right, and dealers would not be paying north of $4000 per box of 5 in the hopes of clearing $300 on a $5000 investment, with all of the associated risk. For the record, I have absolutely no problem with any business, even PCGS, giving quantity discounts to its best customers. Massive quantities of toilet paper cost less at Costco than single rolls at my grocery, and I don't have a problem with that, either. >>
You are right, they do disclose the price for the Signature type of labels. I stand corrected and further, would like to state I didn't mean to insult you or anyone else on here. I only for clarification.
<< <i> Coins101 said:Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
>>
Coins101 I have no doubt you're a great guy so please don't turn this into a peeing contest, BUT don't tell me to read all the posts before posting when I simply called you out for what is printed on the page. *YOU*, coins101 stated that NJcoin said: and better grades than us small times pickers
I just reread every single post by NJcoin in this thread. Show me where NJcoin said the bolded quote above and I'll send you a free silver eagle. Please be specific in your reply and show me his *exact* post in this thread where he said the big guys get better grades. You took the time to tell me to "read all the posts", however I just re-read them and I can't find what you're talking about. Show us what you're talking about please...
*EDIT -- I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational, but I was told to read "all the posts" and after re-reading them I still can't find the quote you're referencing. I believe you, but I would like to see the post you're referring to as I don't see it. >>
Thanks for the support!!! I really do try to be careful not to say anything too provocative, and never say anything so blatant. There is certainly some anomaly in the way the pop reports vary so widely from the shared reports, as is pointed out by lots of folks every week. I questioned what could possibly be causing the variation in the beginning, but have since come to realize that there are a lot of possible explanations, some very innocent and some less so. But since I have no way to know what's going on, I'm just trying to figure out what to do with my box of 5. The obvious way to overcome a conspiracy theory that big submitters obtain better results is to simply make a submission through a reputable dealer, which is what I may very well end up doing myself if I don't just sell my box or throw it in the closet and forget it for a few years.
<< <i>Coins101 I have no doubt you're a great guy so please don't turn this into a peeing contest, BUT don't tell me to read all the posts before posting when I simply called you out for what is printed on the page. *YOU*, coins101 stated that NJcoin said: and better grades than us small times pickers ... >>
There is a suspicion that the graders who grade bulk submissions are not the same as the ones who grade regular submissions. Since grading is a subjective science, it is certainly understandable that one grader may see or judge things differently than another grader. So while it may not be intentional, it is possible the results from one set of graders could skew differently than from another set of graders. All of the grading results that have been posted, combined with the population reports, tend to support this theory.
No need to bash each other - let's be friends as you all sound like knowledgeable and passionate people
I'm just trying to understand how the game is played and to learn from the best.
For the record my 2 boxes of 5 went to Wondercoin and I'm very pleased with the level of service I received. In my personal opinion it was well worth not to deal with the potential crooks on Ebay
Now back to the topic. I believe the major part of equation I missed is that the dealers or anybody submittig in person at the show has a major advantage.
They can open a box in front of PCGS reps and pick and chose the coins that they want to submit therefore greatly increasing chances to get the best coins graded
This is the option that anybody submitting via mail is missing and has to blindly pay for all the rattlers.
With the great profits on these sets when introduced I believe some or most of that money went back into buying the graded sets that were far too cheap-IMO...........goldmart and some other sellers were just moving money selling as cheap as they have...........these sets have the greatest potential and those that made early profits would be foolish not to buy back in........as for your sealed boxes why not partner with someone (WC or others) and work a deal on that front ??.............that way the grading options might go in your favor.................
"The obvious way to overcome a conspiracy theory that big submitters obtain better results is to simply make a submission through a reputable dealer, which is what I may very well end up doing myself if I don't just sell my box or throw it in the closet and forget it for a few years."
It really is that simple ... to anyone out there ... if you have (10)-(20)+ sealed FS eligible sets ready to submit and I submit them under my account ... PCGS will have NO IDEA who the owner of the sets is at the time they grade the coins (or at any point in time for that matter). If you like my percentages, make them your percentages. LOL.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
As of tonight there are 43 listings for sealed unopened boxes.......with quanity in 1-2-3-4-5 sets for a total of 164 sets..............That is the lowest since sales started on e-bay that I have seen............in addition there are at least 30 sets that are not FS sets and there are some questionable boxes that may or may not be sealed sets from the mint (packaging is suspect IMO)..............FS sealed boxes are drying up..........or sellers are holding for a certain price point to be reached................IMO it is a little of both..................
<< <i>Looks like MCM is dumping their supply of ATS 70 sets. They have them on sale (clearance) right now. for $1231.65 after the 15% discount. >>
Even with their discount...you can get them cheaper on eBay >>
Interesting. I don't really follow the ATS sets on eBay other than a look every now and then. It seems they have been bouncing around at the level for a long time while the PCGS 70 seemed to have getting stronger since their bottom.
<< <i>Looks like MCM is dumping their supply of ATS 70 sets. They have them on sale (clearance) right now. for $1231.65 after the 15% discount. >>
Even with their discount...you can get them cheaper on eBay >>
Interesting. I don't really follow the ATS sets on eBay other than a look every now and then. It seems they have been bouncing around at the level for a long time while the PCGS 70 seemed to have getting stronger since their bottom. >>
Comments
<< <i>I wonder if the BST board is still the best way to sell these sets? I have two unopened 2011 ASE boxes of 5 sets each. Those fees in ebay just kill me. >>
Probably... Email Danny and Mitch/WC to see what they offer you and then decide if it's worth the hassle of selling on eBay to make just a tiny bit more. Personally whenever I finally sell a case I'll mostly likely sell to one of the guys above or MCM/Apmex etc. as I definitely don't want to receive the funds via paypal. The 20k yearly limit is a bummer to be sure... :
Unless, of course, if that mixed bag of a set is untimately worth $2k or more one day...but that's why they call it gambling.
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
You been checking out my submissions again?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
Agreed you really have to get lucky and hit a 70 on one of the two keys.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.
I've decided to sell those two MS70 coins, buy 2 MS69 coins to replace them to have a set with all the same MS69 grade.
would you agree? or would it be better to try and buy the 3 missing MS70 to make a MS70 set?
Problem is, by the time I buy the missing three MS70 (one of them would be the "S"), I'll be close to spending what I would have for a complete 70 set.
Mark
<< <i>I have a "mixed" set, 3 MS69, and 2 MS70, with one of those MS70 being the Rev Proof.
I've decided to sell those two MS70 coins, buy 2 MS69 coins to replace them to have a set with all the same MS69 grade.
would you agree? or would it be better to try and buy the 3 missing MS70 to make a MS70 set?
Problem is, by the time I buy the missing three MS70 (one of them would be the "S"), I'll be close to spending what I would have for a complete 70 set.
Mark >>
I have found out the same thing. I have a PCGS FS set that is all 69's except the RP which is a 70. I have tried to get a decent price on a 69 RP but haven't been very successful at this point.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs. >>
To me a sealed box of 5 sets is equal in value to about 4 and a half PCGS 69 sets and a couple of coins graded PCGS 70, less grading fees, because that's they way they've been apparently grading them for the common folk lately. But apparently the sealed boxes are worth much more to others. Perhaps the current buyers are sending them for grading at NGC? I doubt that because it seems the PCGS FS cutoff is relevant in pricing. If that is the case, maybe it's just the bulk submitters buying up boxes...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>If that is the case, maybe it's just the bulk submitters buying up boxes... >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs. >>
Like I said, it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. But to compare a graded 69 set to a picked over open set is REALLY FLAWED. But, you have your opinion and I have mine. An open set can never be a FS set nor can it be considered a complete 25th Anniversary set. Only two coins can be graded Plain-Jane 25th coins. Now, before the flames start about the FS label, we all know there is a following for these labels and in most cases, they bring a premium over the Plain-Jane labels, though one person on here claims otherwise. Again, when you can buy both keys in a FS 70 grade for around $1k, give or take $100, whay pay $900 for a sealed box and end up with a 62 - pop1.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't get it - $800-900/set and odds are the buyer will end up with mostly 69's at $750/set?? Or worse yet, a partial set of 69/70's that no one wants??
I said the same thing on another thread thinking it would be better just to buy a PCGS FS graded 69 set or at least the 69 sets should be close, if not parallel the cost of the sealed sets. But, I guess it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. >>
Coins -- with all due respect, you logic is a bit flawed. A sealed set has the possibility of yielding 1-5 70s; a graded 69 set has pretty much no chance, other than a long shot on a regrade. Now that a gap has opened up between sealed and opened sets, the proper comparison to a 69 set is an opened set, not a sealed one. The 69 sets ARE closely tracking the price of opened sets. Remember, almost all of these coins are either grading 69 or 70. So while 69 is a pretty impressive grade for most other issues, in this case 69 is another way of saying "not 70," and it's valued accordingly.
Buy 69 sets because they are beautiful sets; do not buy them in anticipation of the market ever putting a premium on them over the value of a picked over, opened sets. Bear in mind, people are picking over opened sets looking for possible 70 keys to submit. What's left are the 69s, just like the ones in the 69 slabs. >>
Like I said, it all boils down to the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. But to compare a graded 69 set to a picked over open set is REALLY FLAWED. But, you have your opinion and I have mine. An open set can never be a FS set nor can it be considered a complete 25th Anniversary set. Only two coins can be graded Plain-Jane 25th coins. Now, before the flames start about the FS label, we all know there is a following for these labels and in most cases, they bring a premium over the Plain-Jane labels, though one person on here claims otherwise. Again, when you can buy both keys in a FS 70 grade for around $1k, give or take $100, whay pay $900 for a sealed box and end up with a 62 - pop1. >>
And from the shared submissions thread there are 68's sprinkled in too. The 68's is what prompted me to sell my sealed box of 5. I couldn't have handled it had either key graded a 68.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Current BST buy price for BO5 is about $4000
Add the $1250 (250*5) for Mercanti Label
The base cost is around $5250 for 5 sets
Now let assume unthinkable - that BO5 will yield 3 full PCGS 70s and 2 PCGS 69s
I assume 70 sets sell for $1500 gross it's $4500, and 69 sells for $750 gross add another $1500
The total gross proceeds are $6000 that after fees/shipping etc bring net maybe $5500-5600
Lots of work for this $250-$350 profit and roughly 5% return
And that is assuming 60% 70 ratio. Otherwise it's a loss.
What am I missing?
<< <i>
What am I missing? >>
The folks buying these are confident they'll get more 70s that you have assumed and/or they are counting on prices going up.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>And from the shared submissions thread there are 68's sprinkled in too. The 68's is what prompted me to sell my sealed box of 5. I couldn't have handled it had either key graded a 68. >>
And, if you look at the Pop reports, there are some even lower. Some are down to 65's.
Luckily I only had one rattler out of the box of 5, and I was able to look at it with my loupe to ensure it wasn't dinged up before I submitted it. If it was dinged up, I wouldn't have submitted it for a MS65 grade.
Mark
<< <i>There is something that leaves me puzzled
Current BST buy price for BO5 is about $4000
Add the $1250 (250*5) for Mercanti Label
The base cost is around $5250 for 5 sets
Now let assume unthinkable - that BO5 will yield 3 full PCGS 70s and 2 PCGS 69s
I assume 70 sets sell for $1500 gross it's $4500, and 69 sells for $750 gross add another $1500
The total gross proceeds are $6000 that after fees/shipping etc bring net maybe $5500-5600
Lots of work for this $250-$350 profit and roughly 5% return
And that is assuming 60% 70 ratio. Otherwise it's a loss.
What am I missing? >>
That those submitters are banking on much more than 3 sets of MS 70's out of a box of 5.
<< <i>I wonder if the BST board is still the best way to sell these sets? I have two unopened 2011 ASE boxes of 5 sets each. Those fees in ebay just kill me. >>
Why would you wonder that? Let's see Ebay numbers approaching 4,700, less fees leaves approx 4400 vs a sale on the bst at 4K...I'd rather take the 4,400.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is something that leaves me puzzled
Current BST buy price for BO5 is about $4000
Add the $1250 (250*5) for Mercanti Label
The base cost is around $5250 for 5 sets
Now let assume unthinkable - that BO5 will yield 3 full PCGS 70s and 2 PCGS 69s
I assume 70 sets sell for $1500 gross it's $4500, and 69 sells for $750 gross add another $1500
The total gross proceeds are $6000 that after fees/shipping etc bring net maybe $5500-5600
Lots of work for this $250-$350 profit and roughly 5% return
And that is assuming 60% 70 ratio. Otherwise it's a loss.
What am I missing? >>
That those submitters are banking on much more than 3 sets of MS 70's out of a box of 5.
That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets.
<< <i>
<< <i>If that is the case, maybe it's just the bulk submitters buying up boxes... >>
+1
For what it's worth, while lots of folks have been debating whether to sell their boxes based on how high they go, have you seen a single post from anyone other than a dealer (or maybe a flipper) looking to buy boxes at these levels? I haven't seen a single post from an individual collector thinking about buying a sealed box over $4000 in order to spend $1250 to have it graded, in order to try his luck at the grading roulette wheel.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged.
I think bulk submissions are always given discounts depending on how big the submission is.
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please...
<< <i>
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
<< <i>If values were equal (within a 100) then sell on e-bay.......BUT remember there are always some scammers out there that might tell you they received 4 sets instead of 5.........OR might complain about loose coins...and if you have to take a box back after it has been opened you might end up with a bunch of picked over coins that didn't make the grade from someone else...........just some things to think about.........seems like the guys that are buying these would step up if you really needed them too..................IMO >>
I'd agree with that, even when you think you're safe. we had a deal with a buyer that had 2 accounts. One was his buyer account, the other his big ego 20K+ feedback seller account. USPS showed delivery attempted with notice left. Had a nice safe feeling becuase I knew who this guy was, + his feedback and write up made him sound like a saint, and he couldn't hide from me. Well he tried to hide, ignored all messages, and had somehow got his mail guy to hand over multiple boxes of 5 without obtaining a signature....This squirrel was going to make an item not received claim...A phone call set him straight...But again you're right, ya never know who you'll run into...made all the more worse by selling a box that you haven't opened.
<< <i>
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
For what it's worth, all I was trying to do was state what Shiny might be missing. My response did not in any way suggest the grading results were any different than what he/she was assuming (60% 70s) or that the prices of the graded sets differed in a material way. Shiny did not understand the economics of a possible 5% return, assuming that 60% 70s were achieved. I chimed in that I thought, although did not know for sure (by saying "incorrectly, I believe") that the dealers buying boxes for $4000 and submitting them for grading were not paying $1250 to have them graded. If that's correct, and I'm pretty sure that it is, that is what Shiny is missing. I did not say, and did not mean to imply, any more or any less.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
By the way, PCGS certainly has disclosed what signature (and signature flag) labels cost, and it IS $250 per set, for you and me. I just cannot believe, and nobody in the know has stated otherwise, that big customers pay the same price as small fry. If that were the case, then Shiny would be right, and dealers would not be paying north of $4000 per box of 5 in the hopes of clearing $300 on a $5000 investment, with all of the associated risk. For the record, I have absolutely no problem with any business, even PCGS, giving quantity discounts to its best customers. Massive quantities of toilet paper cost less at Costco than single rolls at my grocery, and I don't have a problem with that, either.
<< <i> Coins101 said:Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
>>
Coins101 I have no doubt you're a great guy so please don't turn this into a peeing contest, BUT don't tell me to read all the posts before posting when I simply called you out for what is printed on the page. *YOU*, coins101 stated that NJcoin said:
and better grades than us small times pickers
I just reread every single post by NJcoin in this thread. Show me where NJcoin said the bolded quote above and I'll send you a free silver eagle. Please be specific in your reply and show me his *exact* post in this thread where he said the big guys get better grades. You took the time to tell me to "read all the posts", however I just re-read them and I can't find what you're talking about. Show us what you're talking about please...
*EDIT -- I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational, but I was told to read "all the posts" and after re-reading them I still can't find the quote you're referencing. I believe you, but I would like to see the post you're referring to as I don't see it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
By the way, PCGS certainly has disclosed what signature (and signature flag) labels cost, and it IS $250 per set, for you and me. I just cannot believe, and nobody in the know has stated otherwise, that big customers pay the same price as small fry. If that were the case, then Shiny would be right, and dealers would not be paying north of $4000 per box of 5 in the hopes of clearing $300 on a $5000 investment, with all of the associated risk. For the record, I have absolutely no problem with any business, even PCGS, giving quantity discounts to its best customers. Massive quantities of toilet paper cost less at Costco than single rolls at my grocery, and I don't have a problem with that, either.
You are right, they do disclose the price for the Signature type of labels. I stand corrected and further, would like to state I didn't mean to insult you or anyone else on here. I only for clarification.
Here to ya!
<< <i>Hello, Most casual collectors are not on these boards........most don't even know of a BST.......The sets that are being sold on e-bay are probably (my guess) the casual collector base...........WC and the other have been on the boards for quite sometime now not just with these sets..............This mornings total members of record on this forum was 34200...........you cannot possibly have all the collectors on one forum..........The sell boards on other forums probably have their share of listings for these sets............ >>
Point taken, but I think the give and take on the boards is representative of what's going on outside. Based on what I see on the boards, I have a strong feeling that it's dealers like WC who are the buyers, even on eBay. I never thought the entire collector population (or even the entire knowledgeable collector population) was represented on this one board, but I do think the conversation is representative.
I strongly doubt that many casual collectors who missed the sets at $300 from the mint are paying $4500 for a box of 5 on eBay in order to try their luck at the grading game. In fact, I am almost certain that I am right, based on the price action to date, as it correlates almost exactly with dealer postings on BST. In the beginning, dealers (probably including the large online and TV sellers) were gobbling up sealed boxes, and prices raced right up to $4500. Then they sat back, waiting for their sets to come back from the graders, and the sealed box prices collapsed to around $3000. Where were all the casual collectors then? I think they were selling, just as they were at the top.
Then the graded sets flooded the market, and 70s that started around $3000 dropped like a rock all the way down to $1200. Now those prices are heading back up along with the sealed boxes. Reasonable minds can differ, and I can't really prove I'm right, but the price movements to date tell me that the graded set market is a retail market (where casual collectors are buyers and dealers and more knowledgeable collectors are sellers), and the sealed set market is a wholesale market where casual collectors and others lucky enough to get their hands on sealed sets are sellers and dealers are buyers, using them as raw material with which to make graded sets to place in their inventory to sell to the casual collector.
To the extent I am wrong, Shiny is a million percent right since the retail costs of grading, combined with the lack of access to the law of averages that comes into play when large numbers of coins are graded at once, practically guarantee that a casual collector buying a box of 5 for for $4000+ and then grading them and incurring the costs of selling them will lose money.
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<< <i>So NJCoin, you think the PCGS grading game is rigged. You think the big boys like WC & MCM get discounts and better grades than us small times pickers because they are bulk sumitters. Interesting. >>
Why are you trying to stir the pot Coins101? NJCoin simply made the observation that he doesn't see many casual collectors seeking sealed boxes at this point (I share that opinion fwiw). He didn't state they received "better grades" so why would you post such a thing? Threads that head in that direction are inevitably poofed so let's not take this thread in that direction please... >>
Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
PCGS has a set price for bulk submission and a set price for FS designation. The only thing they don't disclose is what the signature label or signature flag labels cost. I also believe he made a remark about all the 70 signature sets but the lack there of for the regular flag label (if it wasn't him, someone else made the remark way back in this thread or one of the others).
No pot stirring here. I just asked a simple question for clarification purposes regarding his observation.
Personally, I don't believe PCGS would do something like that as in the long run, it may hurt their reputation. >>
By the way, PCGS certainly has disclosed what signature (and signature flag) labels cost, and it IS $250 per set, for you and me. I just cannot believe, and nobody in the know has stated otherwise, that big customers pay the same price as small fry. If that were the case, then Shiny would be right, and dealers would not be paying north of $4000 per box of 5 in the hopes of clearing $300 on a $5000 investment, with all of the associated risk. For the record, I have absolutely no problem with any business, even PCGS, giving quantity discounts to its best customers. Massive quantities of toilet paper cost less at Costco than single rolls at my grocery, and I don't have a problem with that, either.
You are right, they do disclose the price for the Signature type of labels. I stand corrected and further, would like to state I didn't mean to insult you or anyone else on here. I only for clarification.
Here to ya!
No problem!
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<< <i> Coins101 said:Maybe you should read all the posts before making your own! Per NJCoin:
<< <i>That, plus you are assuming (incorrectly, I believe) that a dealer sending a ton of sets in for bulk grading pay the same $250/set for grading that we pay for 5 or 10 sets. >>
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Coins101 I have no doubt you're a great guy so please don't turn this into a peeing contest, BUT don't tell me to read all the posts before posting when I simply called you out for what is printed on the page. *YOU*, coins101 stated that NJcoin said:
and better grades than us small times pickers
I just reread every single post by NJcoin in this thread. Show me where NJcoin said the bolded quote above and I'll send you a free silver eagle. Please be specific in your reply and show me his *exact* post in this thread where he said the big guys get better grades. You took the time to tell me to "read all the posts", however I just re-read them and I can't find what you're talking about. Show us what you're talking about please...
*EDIT -- I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational, but I was told to read "all the posts" and after re-reading them I still can't find the quote you're referencing. I believe you, but I would like to see the post you're referring to as I don't see it. >>
Thanks for the support!!!
<< <i>Coins101 I have no doubt you're a great guy so please don't turn this into a peeing contest, BUT don't tell me to read all the posts before posting when I simply called you out for what is printed on the page. *YOU*, coins101 stated that NJcoin said:
and better grades than us small times pickers
... >>
There is a suspicion that the graders who grade bulk submissions are not the same as the ones who grade regular submissions. Since grading is a subjective science, it is certainly understandable that one grader may see or judge things differently than another grader. So while it may not be intentional, it is possible the results from one set of graders could skew differently than from another set of graders. All of the grading results that have been posted, combined with the population reports, tend to support this theory.
No need to bash each other - let's be friends
I'm just trying to understand how the game is played and to learn from the best.
For the record my 2 boxes of 5 went to Wondercoin and I'm very pleased with the level of service I received. In my personal opinion it was well worth not to deal with the potential crooks on Ebay
Now back to the topic. I believe the major part of equation I missed is that the dealers or anybody submittig in person at the show has a major advantage.
They can open a box in front of PCGS reps and pick and chose the coins that they want to submit therefore greatly increasing chances to get the best coins graded
This is the option that anybody submitting via mail is missing and has to blindly pay for all the rattlers.
It really is that simple ... to anyone out there ... if you have (10)-(20)+ sealed FS eligible sets ready to submit and I submit them under my account ... PCGS will have NO IDEA who the owner of the sets is at the time they grade the coins (or at any point in time for that matter). If you like my percentages, make them your percentages. LOL.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Looks like MCM is dumping their supply of ATS 70 sets. They have them on sale (clearance) right now. for $1231.65 after the 15% discount. >>
Even with their discount...you can get them cheaper on eBay
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<< <i>Looks like MCM is dumping their supply of ATS 70 sets. They have them on sale (clearance) right now. for $1231.65 after the 15% discount. >>
Even with their discount...you can get them cheaper on eBay >>
Interesting. I don't really follow the ATS sets on eBay other than a look every now and then. It seems they have been bouncing around at the level for a long time while the PCGS 70 seemed to have getting stronger since their bottom.
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<< <i>Looks like MCM is dumping their supply of ATS 70 sets. They have them on sale (clearance) right now. for $1231.65 after the 15% discount. >>
Even with their discount...you can get them cheaper on eBay >>
Interesting. I don't really follow the ATS sets on eBay other than a look every now and then. It seems they have been bouncing around at the level for a long time while the PCGS 70 seemed to have getting stronger since their bottom. >>
brain freeze, what is a ats 70 set?
<< <i>brain freeze, what is a ats 70 set? >>
"Across the street" aka NGC
<< <i>brain freeze, what is a ats 70 set? >>
Been there - done that!!!