Larkin doesn't have the greatest stats in the world, but he was a winner, played a very important defensive position well and was very popular with the fans. Sometimes that is what matters. I would rather see Larkin in there than a cheater like Barry Bonds. I'm fine with his election.
<< <i>I'm suprised at the lack of respect he is getting here. >>
You and me, too.
RoarIn84's point is valid, in that Larkin and Tram's numbers are close but that indicates to me that Trammell is getting hosed, not that Larkin doesn't belong. They should both be in, as should Alan's partner Mr. Whittaker.
Most of the times I watched Barry play it was against the Braves, so when I saw him at the plate my reaction wasn't "Oh, boy!"...it was more like "Oh, no...please pitch to this guy carefully."
I was a big Reds fan during Larkin's playing career. However, I have to say, during that time, I don't even consider him the best Reds player. That was Eric Davis. He was the Reds phenom during that time, who was the player that you wanted to watch all of the time. He had the power, speed, everything. That's why I don't really think of Larkin as a HOFer. Hall of the Very Good, yes.
I can't believe some of you think since Barry Larkin got in the HOF then Alan Trammell should be in. Larkin was the best shortstop during his generation and revolutionized his position. On top of that, Larkin had intangibles you can't teach on the baseball diamond. He was like another coach on the field, ie.... Cal Ripken Jr. Larkin only played 150+ games 3 times in his career, his numbers would have been more impressive if he had stayed healthy. The one knock on Larkin was he was injured prone. I think Larkin is very deserving of this honor.
Go ahead and compare the two, Larkin played 113 less games then Trammell. Trammell won 3 gold gloves and Larkin won 3, but Larkin had a guy in front of him in St.Louis name Smith who won it 13 times. Ripken didn't take away the GG's from Trammell so please don't use that in your argument. Ripken only won the award twice during his career.
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS Larkin 2180 9057 7937 1329 2340 441 76 198 960 379 77 939 817 .295 .371 .444 .815
It is amazing to me how many people here can't seem to comprehend that Larkin should be compared to other Shortstops. He definitely belongs, look at his rate stats. As has been said he is among the best 10 shortstops ever, heck using some numbers he is among the top 5. There is no doubt he belongs. Santo is a similar situation, he is one of the top 10 third basemen to ever play the game, yet many people argue against his worthiness as well. Someone like Maris' stats pale in comparison to other corner outfielders, there is no way he belongs. He had two HOF seasons, definitely not a HOF career.
BTW, I'd vote for Trammell too.
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<< <i>I grew up a Reds fan when Larkin blossomed. Not once did I ever think he was a Hall of Famer.
Very, very good player. But not a Hall of Famer. >>
I grew up in the Cincy area at this time (but raised an Oakland A's fan ) and I agree Larkin was a really solid player but I never thought of him as a HOF either. I only think he got in this year because he was the only safe bet before all hell breaks lose with next years class of possible HOFers.
Based on the Larkin supporters arguments...Jeff Kent is a shoe-in for the HOF.
Middle infielder with better offensive stats in nearly every offensive category. He scored 9 less runs batting in the middle of the order. 100 more hits. 100 more doubles. Nearly 200 more HR's. 600 more RBI's....60 points higher in slugging percentage...higher OPS....and a career batting average that was only 5 points lower. All that power damage with basically the same average and OBP.
The field general/intagibles/good guy argument is weak. If that's of such importance in the voting...I agree 100% that Trammell should be in.
<< <i>Based on the Larkin supporters arguments...Jeff Kent is a shoe-in for the HOF.
Middle infielder with better offensive stats in nearly every offensive category. He scored 9 less runs batting in the middle of the order. 100 more hits. 100 more doubles. Nearly 200 more HR's. 600 more RBI's....60 points higher in slugging percentage...higher OPS....and a career batting average that was only 5 points lower. All that power damage with basically the same average and OBP.
The field general/intagibles/good guy argument is weak. If that's of such importance in the voting...I agree 100% that Trammell should be in. >>
I haven't put thought into Kent, but how did Kent compare to his peers in the era he played? How was kent with his glove? How were Kent's Stolen Base numbers? How well liked was Kent by the fans?
I see you focused on Comparing Kent and Larkin in the areas that Kent excelled. The hall of fame however isn't a mathematical formula.
The era he played? Their careers were only 5 years apart. I'd call that the same era.
I'm using the stats of a guy that played in a similar era and wasn't well liked by the media and the fans. If the HOF is a popularity contest...the voters are indeed doing their job. Stolen Bases? Really? Yes, Barry Larkin had more stolen bases than Jeff Kent. He also had the same amount of NL MVP awards.
I kind of see "getting in" as a popularity contest in a way as well.
Barry Bonds and Mark Mcgwire both used but I would say that BigMac would have an easier time of getting in than Bonds. Bonds had a reputation of just being nasty and hateful while bigmac was signing away for almost everyone and just seemed like a really nice guy. I see Larkin like that as well. Approachable.
Someone joked earlier that since hes now an ESPN commentator, thats he's pretty much in and I think theres actually some truth in that. I know when I was a kid, we liked Barry Larkin. That was a guy who was going into our baseball card binder - Cant say the same for Jeff Kent unfortunately.
I agree with you Foo...that's my point. The same reason Ozzie Smith went backflipping into the HOF and guys like Trammell and Whitaker who were much better all around players will never get in. It's fine...the HOF iust becomes more like High School every year.
some would say the same thing about a Jeter vs. Rose comparison.
Of Course, you used the same methods (equal points in career) to make that comparison as Hard Ball Times did in their argument
Youre correct - and I like both players but in fairness to comparing Jeters with Barrys stats, Jeters still an active player so his numbers arent set in stone yet.
<< <i>The era he played? Their careers were only 5 years apart. I'd call that the same era.
I'm using the stats of a guy that played in a similar era and wasn't well liked by the media and the fans. If the HOF is a popularity contest...the voters are indeed doing their job. Stolen Bases? Really? Yes, Barry Larkin had more stolen bases than Jeff Kent. He also had the same amount of NL MVP awards. >>
Larkin 379 stolen bases vs. 94 is a big difference in that element of the game.
Kent also had ZERO Gold Gloves
Kent struck out in 18% of his at bats compared to Larkins 10%...
Why are you only using stats that Larkin excelled in
But seriously...I'm just trying to make the argument that perception seems to go a lot further than the actual numbers. For the record...I would take 600 more RBI's, 200 more HR's, and 100 more doubles during this era over the SB's. I can't argue about Kent's defense. But we could all take the reverse argument on Ozzie Smith.
<< <i>Why are you only using stats that Larkin excelled in
But seriously...I'm just trying to make the argument that perception seems to go a lot further than the actual numbers. For the record...I would take 600 more RBI's, 200 more HR's, and 100 more doubles during this era over the SB's. I can't argue about Kent's defense. But we could all take the reverse argument on Ozzie Smith. >>
But I would bet money that Larkin and Smith saved more runs with their defense then Kent created with his bat. That makes just as big or bigger a difference than a big bat.
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<< <i>Based on the Larkin supporters arguments...Jeff Kent is a shoe-in for the HOF. >>
He should be.
377 HRs - most all-time for 2B.
1518 RBI - most all-time for 2B (I think, not 100% sure)
8 100+ RBI seasons
An MVP.
Sure he wasn't a Gold Glove defender but he also wasn't awful. The numbers say he was average. I'll take "average defender, all-time great offensive guy" at a position every day of the week.
Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least.
<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner A-Rod Cal Ripken Jr Ernie Banks Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway) Alan Trammell Nomar? Robin Yount? Barry Larkin Miguel Tejada? Omar Vizquel
<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner A-Rod Cal Ripken Jr Ernie Banks Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway) Alan Trammell Nomar? Robin Yount? Barry Larkin Miguel Tejada? Omar Vizquel
Who else am I missing?
Tabe >>
Luke Appling gets a lot of praise, as does Arky Vaughn. Can't say I've seen them play.
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<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner A-Rod Cal Ripken Jr Ernie Banks Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway) Alan Trammell Nomar? Robin Yount? Barry Larkin Miguel Tejada? Omar Vizquel
Who else am I missing?
Tabe >>
Boudreau, Cronin, George Davis, Vern Stephens
Take Vizquel, Tejada, and Nomar off your list. Fine players, but not top ten material.
<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner A-Rod Cal Ripken Jr Ernie Banks Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway) Alan Trammell Nomar? Robin Yount? Barry Larkin Miguel Tejada? Omar Vizquel
Who else am I missing?
Tabe >>
Boudreau, Cronin, George Davis, Vern Stephens
Take Vizquel, Tejada, and Nomar off your list. Fine players, but not top ten material. >>
You may as well take Banks and Yount off the list since they played about half of their games at a different position.
Does anyone who think Larkin belongs also think Mazeroski doesn't belong? Maz is one who often gets criticized as not deserving enshrinement due to his offensive production. However, I would say he was much more dominant with his glove than Larkin with 8 gold gloves and led the league in assists 9 times. He also hit in cavernous Forbes field for most of his career. He actually hit only 25 fewer home runs on the road than Ryan Sandberg during his career. I think the gap between Maz's offensive production and Kent, Morgan, Sandberg and Hornsby (generally considered the best hitting second basemen of all-time) is less than the gap between Larkin and Banks, Wagner and AROD.
I wonder if Babe Ruth played shortstop for 19 years if he would still be a HOF'er?
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Larkin is a Hall of Famer. His one of the better Hall of Famers and one of the all-time elite shortstops not really. Alex Rodriguez was the Greatest Shortstop when he was a Shortstop, Derek Jeter is way better than Barry Larkin. Tim Raines should be a Hall of Famer. Nobody is going to steal 800 Bases in this era.
<< <i>So, his numbers get him in because of his position? Got it. >>
Yes, you do compare players by position. Most pitchers could not bat .200, you don't compare their bat to an outfielder who basically only needs to be able to bat to be considered good.
What defines a great catcher or shortstop has never been their bat. >>
I agree. That is why Omar Vizquel has to be a future Hall of Famer. 11 Gold Gloves during the era of great shortstops is nothing to sneeze at...
I love that when Jeter won his last couple of Gold Gloves people called the award a joke...but people want to put Omar Vizquel...yes...Omar Vizquel in the HOF based on his GG's. Jim Kaat must be sick to his stomach...winning 287 games and 14 GG's.
<< <i>I love that when Jeter won his last couple of Gold Gloves people called the award a joke...but people want to put Omar Vizquel...yes...Omar Vizquel in the HOF based on his GG's. Jim Kaat must be sick to his stomach...winning 287 games and 14 GG's.
If Omar Vizquel goes into the HOF..yeesh. >>
OK, then check Vizquel's fielding stats compared to Larkin. BTW, Kaat is always a funny case when people tout those GGs. He averaged 40 chances per season, and never had over 91 chances in ANY season.
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Fielding stats can be misleading. One shortstop stands and watches a grounder a few feet to either side go into the outfield. A HOF shortstop dives and comes up with balls that simply amaze us. On occasion throwing from an awkward position he will be charged with an error. The shortstop who is basically a spectator on the same grounders does not get an error charged to him.
<< <i>Fielding stats can be misleading. One shortstop stands and watches a grounder a few feet to either side go into the outfield. A HOF shortstop dives and comes up with balls that simply amaze us. On occasion throwing from an awkward position he will be charged with an error. The shortstop who is basically a spectator on the same grounders does not get an error charged to him. >>
Zone rating catches that, but it's a fairly immature stat. It's also an objective measure based on subjective observation, which drives the engineer in me crazy, but don't tell the hard core stat guys that.
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<< <i>So Larkin "revolutionized" the position according to some...and Vizquel set it back 40 years. Got it.
And how the hell do you play 23 seasons in this era and not have 3000 hits? >>
Vizquels "all out" playing style is conducive to injuries. He had 6 years where he played 90 or fewer games, a couple years his games total were in the 50's and 60's. He does have 2,841 hits. Not bad for a man who is primarily known for his fielding.
I watched Vizquel play for 11 years in Cleveland - it seemed like every game he did something for the highlight reel....mostly a fantastic defensive play but on many occasions a timely hit, stolen base or aggressive base-running. Baseball consists of offense and defense and the last time I was in Cooperstown the sign said "Baseball Hall of Fame", not "Baseball Hall of Hitters".
I actually agree with you 100%. I think anyone put into the Hall should have been a pretty well rounded player. I think that's why guys like Dave Kingman don't make it. While I agree his defense was awesome (I'm a Detroit fan so I saw him make many, many plays against my hapless 90's Tigers)...I just don't see the HOF for a guy that hit .300 once in 23 years. Especially in an era where offensive numbers were off the charts.
That's what is fun about these types of topics. People watched the same player for his entire career...and have very differing opinions. My opinion is that he was a very steady, solid player. But not HOF worthy. He reminds me of watching Placido Polanco as a Tiger. Maybe not the flash on D...but a guy that never made an error..timely hits, aggressive baserunning, never struck out, etc.
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<< <i>I'm suprised at the lack of respect he is getting here. >>
You and me, too.
RoarIn84's point is valid, in that Larkin and Tram's numbers are close but that indicates to me that Trammell is getting hosed, not that Larkin doesn't belong. They should both be in, as should Alan's partner Mr. Whittaker.
Most of the times I watched Barry play it was against the Braves, so when I saw him at the plate my reaction wasn't "Oh, boy!"...it was more like "Oh, no...please pitch to this guy carefully."
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Go ahead and compare the two, Larkin played 113 less games then Trammell. Trammell won 3 gold gloves and Larkin won 3, but Larkin had a guy in front of him in St.Louis name Smith who won it 13 times. Ripken didn't take away the GG's from Trammell so please don't use that in your argument. Ripken only won the award twice during his career.
G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
Larkin 2180 9057 7937 1329 2340 441 76 198 960 379 77 939 817 .295 .371 .444 .815
Trammell 2293 9375 8288 1231 2365 412 55 185 1003 236 109 850 874 .285 .352 .415 .767
Even though Trammell was a good player he'll never get into the hall of fame. I feel Lou Whitaker belongs in the HOF over Trammell.
BTW, I'd vote for Trammell too.
<< <i>I grew up a Reds fan when Larkin blossomed. Not once did I ever think he was a Hall of Famer.
Very, very good player. But not a Hall of Famer. >>
I grew up in the Cincy area at this time (but raised an Oakland A's fan ) and I agree Larkin was a really solid player but I never thought of him as a HOF either. I only think he got in this year because he was the only safe bet before all hell breaks lose with next years class of possible HOFers.
Middle infielder with better offensive stats in nearly every offensive category. He scored 9 less runs batting in the middle of the order. 100 more hits. 100 more doubles. Nearly 200 more HR's. 600 more RBI's....60 points higher in slugging percentage...higher OPS....and a career batting average that was only 5 points lower. All that power damage with basically the same average and OBP.
The field general/intagibles/good guy argument is weak. If that's of such importance in the voting...I agree 100% that Trammell should be in.
<< <i>Based on the Larkin supporters arguments...Jeff Kent is a shoe-in for the HOF.
Middle infielder with better offensive stats in nearly every offensive category. He scored 9 less runs batting in the middle of the order. 100 more hits. 100 more doubles. Nearly 200 more HR's. 600 more RBI's....60 points higher in slugging percentage...higher OPS....and a career batting average that was only 5 points lower. All that power damage with basically the same average and OBP.
The field general/intagibles/good guy argument is weak. If that's of such importance in the voting...I agree 100% that Trammell should be in. >>
I haven't put thought into Kent, but how did Kent compare to his peers in the era he played? How was kent with his glove? How were Kent's Stolen Base numbers? How well liked was Kent by the fans?
I see you focused on Comparing Kent and Larkin in the areas that Kent excelled. The hall of fame however isn't a mathematical formula.
<< <i>Larkin Vs Jeter - Now thats funny. >>
some would say the same thing about a Jeter vs. Rose comparison.
Of Course, you used the same methods (equal points in career) to make that comparison as Hard Ball Times did in their argument.
I'm using the stats of a guy that played in a similar era and wasn't well liked by the media and the fans. If the HOF is a popularity contest...the voters are indeed doing their job. Stolen Bases? Really? Yes, Barry Larkin had more stolen bases than Jeff Kent. He also had the same amount of NL MVP awards.
Barry Bonds and Mark Mcgwire both used but I would say that BigMac would have an easier time of getting in than Bonds. Bonds had a reputation of just being nasty and hateful while bigmac was signing away for almost everyone and just seemed like a really nice guy. I see Larkin like that as well. Approachable.
Someone joked earlier that since hes now an ESPN commentator, thats he's pretty much in and I think theres actually some truth in that. I know when I was a kid, we liked Barry Larkin. That was a guy who was going into our baseball card binder - Cant say the same for Jeff Kent unfortunately.
some would say the same thing about a Jeter vs. Rose comparison.
Of Course, you used the same methods (equal points in career) to make that comparison as Hard Ball Times did in their argument
Youre correct - and I like both players but in fairness to comparing Jeters with Barrys stats, Jeters still an active player so his numbers arent set in stone yet.
<< <i>The era he played? Their careers were only 5 years apart. I'd call that the same era.
I'm using the stats of a guy that played in a similar era and wasn't well liked by the media and the fans. If the HOF is a popularity contest...the voters are indeed doing their job. Stolen Bases? Really? Yes, Barry Larkin had more stolen bases than Jeff Kent. He also had the same amount of NL MVP awards. >>
Larkin 379 stolen bases vs. 94 is a big difference in that element of the game.
Kent also had ZERO Gold Gloves
Kent struck out in 18% of his at bats compared to Larkins 10%...
Larkin's WAR of 68.9 > Kent's WAR of 59.4
Carney Lansford
Mickey Morandini
Bob Welch
Jerry Reuss (I might have spelled this one wrong)
I can go on. The hof has become a big joke. They need to clean house and start kicking people out.
Dave
<< <i>Larkin is no hof'er. Due to the low stats you now need to get in I have a few favorites.
Carney Lansford
Mickey Morandini
Bob Welch
Jerry Reuss (I might have spelled this one wrong)
I can go on. The hof has become a big joke. They need to clean house and start kicking people out.
Dave >>
They can start with both people going in this year.
But seriously...I'm just trying to make the argument that perception seems to go a lot further than the actual numbers. For the record...I would take 600 more RBI's, 200 more HR's, and 100 more doubles during this era over the SB's. I can't argue about Kent's defense. But we could all take the reverse argument on Ozzie Smith.
<< <i>Why are you only using stats that Larkin excelled in
But seriously...I'm just trying to make the argument that perception seems to go a lot further than the actual numbers. For the record...I would take 600 more RBI's, 200 more HR's, and 100 more doubles during this era over the SB's. I can't argue about Kent's defense. But we could all take the reverse argument on Ozzie Smith. >>
But I would bet money that Larkin and Smith saved more runs with their defense then Kent created with his bat. That makes just as big or bigger a difference than a big bat.
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<< <i>Based on the Larkin supporters arguments...Jeff Kent is a shoe-in for the HOF. >>
He should be.
377 HRs - most all-time for 2B.
1518 RBI - most all-time for 2B (I think, not 100% sure)
8 100+ RBI seasons
An MVP.
Sure he wasn't a Gold Glove defender but he also wasn't awful. The numbers say he was average. I'll take "average defender, all-time great offensive guy" at a position every day of the week.
Tabe
<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner
A-Rod
Cal Ripken Jr
Ernie Banks
Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway)
Alan Trammell
Nomar?
Robin Yount?
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada?
Omar Vizquel
Who else am I missing?
Tabe
<< <i>
<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner
A-Rod
Cal Ripken Jr
Ernie Banks
Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway)
Alan Trammell
Nomar?
Robin Yount?
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada?
Omar Vizquel
Who else am I missing?
Tabe >>
Luke Appling gets a lot of praise, as does Arky Vaughn. Can't say I've seen them play.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner
A-Rod
Cal Ripken Jr
Ernie Banks
Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway)
Alan Trammell
Nomar?
Robin Yount?
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada?
Omar Vizquel
Who else am I missing?
Tabe >>
Boudreau, Cronin, George Davis, Vern Stephens
Take Vizquel, Tejada, and Nomar off your list. Fine players, but not top ten material.
Luis Aparicio
Luke Appling
Dave Bancroft
Ernie Banks
Lou Boudreau
Joe Cronin
George Davis
Travis Jackson
Hughie Jennings
Rabbit Maranville
Pee Wee Reese
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Phil Rizzuto
Joe Sewell
Ozzie Smith
Joe Tinker
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Bobby Wallace
John Ward
Robin Yount
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Kent may very well get in the HOF, but Larkin is one the top 10 SS all time, he deserves enshrinement; the lack of knowledge on this thread is impressive to say the least. >>
Hmmm...that's an interesting question. Who ARE the top 10? Well, there's...
Honus Wagner
A-Rod
Cal Ripken Jr
Ernie Banks
Ozzie Smith? (in the discussion anyway)
Alan Trammell
Nomar?
Robin Yount?
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada?
Omar Vizquel
Who else am I missing?
Tabe >>
Boudreau, Cronin, George Davis, Vern Stephens
Take Vizquel, Tejada, and Nomar off your list. Fine players, but not top ten material. >>
You may as well take Banks and Yount off the list since they played about half of their games at a different position.
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<< <i>Mazeroski used to be known as the best player not in the HOF. I always thought he should be in. >>
Mazeroski yes. Larken no.
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<< <i>
<< <i>So, his numbers get him in because of his position? Got it. >>
Yes, you do compare players by position. Most pitchers could not bat .200, you don't compare their bat to an outfielder who basically only needs to be able to bat to be considered good.
What defines a great catcher or shortstop has never been their bat. >>
I agree. That is why Omar Vizquel has to be a future Hall of Famer. 11 Gold Gloves during the era of great shortstops is nothing to sneeze at...
If Omar Vizquel goes into the HOF..yeesh.
<< <i>I love that when Jeter won his last couple of Gold Gloves people called the award a joke...but people want to put Omar Vizquel...yes...Omar Vizquel in the HOF based on his GG's. Jim Kaat must be sick to his stomach...winning 287 games and 14 GG's.
If Omar Vizquel goes into the HOF..yeesh. >>
OK, then check Vizquel's fielding stats compared to Larkin. BTW, Kaat is always a funny case when people tout those GGs. He averaged 40 chances per season, and never had over 91 chances in ANY season.
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Ralph
<< <i>Fielding stats can be misleading. One shortstop stands and watches a grounder a few feet to either side go into the outfield. A HOF shortstop dives and comes up with balls that simply amaze us. On occasion throwing from an awkward position he will be charged with an error. The shortstop who is basically a spectator on the same grounders does not get an error charged to him. >>
Zone rating catches that, but it's a fairly immature stat. It's also an objective measure based on subjective observation, which drives the engineer in me crazy, but don't tell the hard core stat guys that.
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Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to play a stye like Ripken to be a great SS.
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And how the hell do you play 23 seasons in this era and not have 3000 hits?
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<< <i>So Larkin "revolutionized" the position according to some...and Vizquel set it back 40 years. Got it.
And how the hell do you play 23 seasons in this era and not have 3000 hits? >>
Vizquels "all out" playing style is conducive to injuries. He had 6 years where he played 90 or fewer games, a couple years his games total were in the 50's and 60's. He does have 2,841 hits. Not bad for a man who is primarily known for his fielding.
I watched Vizquel play for 11 years in Cleveland - it seemed like every game he did something for the highlight reel....mostly a fantastic defensive play but on many occasions a timely hit, stolen base or aggressive base-running. Baseball consists of offense and defense and the last time I was in Cooperstown the sign said "Baseball Hall of Fame", not "Baseball Hall of Hitters".
<< <i>Mazeroski used to be known as the best player not in the HOF. I always thought he should be in. >>
Actually, I thought that 'honor' went to either Ron Santo or Gil Hodges.
That's what is fun about these types of topics. People watched the same player for his entire career...and have very differing opinions. My opinion is that he was a very steady, solid player. But not HOF worthy. He reminds me of watching Placido Polanco as a Tiger. Maybe not the flash on D...but a guy that never made an error..timely hits, aggressive baserunning, never struck out, etc.