So Barrys in but does he REALLY have H.O.F. numbers?
Foo3112
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Sure he was a standup player who also managed to stay out of trouble on and off the field, he was a 12 time all-star and won the NL MVP award in 95. His team won the world series in 1990 - That and also being with the same team his whole career helped but are these really hall of fame numbers here?
less than 200 Homeruns (198)
Became the first Short Stop to have 30 Home Runs and 30 Steals
Batting average .295
960 RBI's
2,340 hits
379 Stolen Bases
Won 3 Gold Gloves
The news this morning was calling him a legendary Reds player. Im not sure about that either. When I think legaendary, Im thinking Joe Morgan, Rose, Bench - Larkin doesnt come into my mind.
Then I look at someone like Roger Maris
Heres Rogers stats:
Became the first player to hit over 60 Home Runs in a single season (a record that stood for about 34 years until Maris beat it)
Batting average .260
275 Home Runs (Barry played for 18 years, Roger 10)
7x All- Star
3 World Series Campionships
2 A.L. M.V.P. Titles
Gold Glove Winner
850 RBI's
Seems like the only things that I can think of are his Batting Average and the fact the he kinda fizzled out early into his career. Oh playing for 4 teams doesnt help but one of those World Series titles were even with the Cardinals. I also truly beleive that he was held to a higher standard because he beat the Babes record - a record many did not broken including Babes wife supposedly so maybe there could of been a lot of pressure NOT enter him into the H.O.F.
I think Barry numbers are decent for an 18 year career to get in but is this kinda double standard when you compare to someone whos cards even sell like a Hall Of Famer.
So what gives?
less than 200 Homeruns (198)
Became the first Short Stop to have 30 Home Runs and 30 Steals
Batting average .295
960 RBI's
2,340 hits
379 Stolen Bases
Won 3 Gold Gloves
The news this morning was calling him a legendary Reds player. Im not sure about that either. When I think legaendary, Im thinking Joe Morgan, Rose, Bench - Larkin doesnt come into my mind.
Then I look at someone like Roger Maris
Heres Rogers stats:
Became the first player to hit over 60 Home Runs in a single season (a record that stood for about 34 years until Maris beat it)
Batting average .260
275 Home Runs (Barry played for 18 years, Roger 10)
7x All- Star
3 World Series Campionships
2 A.L. M.V.P. Titles
Gold Glove Winner
850 RBI's
Seems like the only things that I can think of are his Batting Average and the fact the he kinda fizzled out early into his career. Oh playing for 4 teams doesnt help but one of those World Series titles were even with the Cardinals. I also truly beleive that he was held to a higher standard because he beat the Babes record - a record many did not broken including Babes wife supposedly so maybe there could of been a lot of pressure NOT enter him into the H.O.F.
I think Barry numbers are decent for an 18 year career to get in but is this kinda double standard when you compare to someone whos cards even sell like a Hall Of Famer.
So what gives?
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Now all that's left is for the Reds to give what some players consider an even greater honor, hanging Mr. Larkin's jersey on the left field wall, if they haven't done so already. Some teams wait for a player to go the HOF before retiring their number.
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That was actually pretty funny
One interesting note - although Maris played in more games than Ruth - hence the * - he did however break the record with 3 less at bats than Ruth.
<< <i>It's funny, As someone with zero affiliation to the Yankees or the Reds, I look at Barry Larkin and say he's a lock for the Hall of Fame. To me he was responsible for the tranformation of today's ERA of SS. >>
I think most people would give that credit to Cal Ripken.....
IMF
Very, very good player. But not a Hall of Famer.
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Larkin does not shout out HOF to me, then again at least 25% of those
also in there don't either.
jack morris, maris, munson, ted simmons are all more worthy IMO
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<< <i>
<< <i>It's funny, As someone with zero affiliation to the Yankees or the Reds, I look at Barry Larkin and say he's a lock for the Hall of Fame. To me he was responsible for the tranformation of today's ERA of SS. >>
I think most people would give that credit to Cal Ripken.....
IMF >>
+1
Ripken led Larkin in most offensive categories, and not by a little bit either.
Not to take anything away from Larkin, he was a great player, but Hall of Fame is a stretch.
I know I will take a Big Hit on this comment but why is Ozzie Smith in the Hall?Maybe it was the summersalts.
No one will ever convince me he belongs there.
Bill Buckner
Al Oliver
Tommy John
Jim Kaat
All of these guys belong in way before Larkin. What we are going to see going forward are average players getting in to the Hall because they were not caught or alledgedly (SP) did not take performance enhancing drugs.
We all know that Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back to the forefront after the strike, but all the media/writers who eat doughnuts instead of steriods, will not vote for them.
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When you compare Larkin to all other shortstops currently in the HOF, he seems to fit right around the #10 slot (out of 23 or so).
It really depends on the perspective you take.
I still have some difficulty in thinking of Larkin as a HOFer when I look at him from just the big picture. But when you look at him positionally
and compare to those who came before he certainly stands out quite a bit more. We don't hold pitchers to the same standards as
non-pitchers for obvious reasons. So do we simply look at non-pitchers in terms of their relative offensive and defensive statistics
or do we also have to consider the position they played and how they performed in that position relative to others at the same position
both within their own era and across eras?
Dave
<< <i>Larkin's stats are give or take equal to Alan Trammell. Tram is snubbed every year with no serious consideration...... People say Larkin 1-had a magnetic personality and 2- he's part of the Reds' storied franchise. 1-Tram has managed and is currently coaching a 1st place team, 2- what about Concepcion??. What's the greater travesty? The Hall is a sick joke wrought with controversy. Sorry Barry..... Until Tram gets in, you get no love. >>
Why not tell us how you really feel, don't hold back now.
The hall of fame lost it's luster a long time ago. Their are too many people that should not be in that are.
The other problem is their are many players that are not in that should be.
Dave
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Ralph
<< <i>Barry has the numbers and it is not even close. 86% I believe I heard on SC. I'm suprised at the lack of respect he is getting here. I thought he was if not a lock for the Hall he had a great chance. The Reds had quite a few who were no brainer HOFers, perhaps comparing Larkin to Rose, Bench, Morgan causes one to diminish his accomplishments. BTW if I was voting I would have Maris in. >>
Hey Brick, as you followed baseball through the years, did you ever think, I need to stop and see what Larkin did tonight or say I can't wait to see Larkin play tonight. Probably not. And in my mind these are the guys that belong in the Hall. I think I paid more attention to Tim Raines than Barry Larkin and I think he was probably better, but neither would be a HOF in my mind.
Larkin, as stated earlier in probably around the 10th or so best SS of all-time, which should merit serious consideration for the HOF, but probably leaves him on the outside. And the comparison to Trammell is a great comparison, without looking at stats and having followed baseball for the last 36 years, I would say that Trammell was better.
McGwire is a definite HOF, he stands out to me for alot of things that made baseball exciting again post 1994. IF he can't get in why would Biggio or Larkin or Santo? These guys pale in comparison to Big Mac and it's not close. He would rank in the top 5 all-time 1st basemen, imo. I know the answer is Steriods, but how do you know Biggio or Larkin weren't taking something? How can one measure how much better a baseball player can be by taking PED? It may make you better or it might not.
"But, but...he played his entire career with ONE team! And, he's on ESPN!"
"Oh, alright! You got me...he's in!"
His inclusion would also bode well for Schilling getting in.
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<< <i>When will people start to realize that positions of importance on the field get more HOF attention. Larkin is one of the best overall shortstops of all-time, there is NO doubting it. He has an MVP Award. He helped his team win a World Series. He was an 11-time All Star. He played 99.99% of his career at SS. He played his entire career for his hometown Reds. He was a solid individual away from baseball. To say he's not worthy of the Hall makes your opinions invalid. >>
He's not worthy of the hall of fame. That's a valid opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i>Barry has the numbers and it is not even close. 86% I believe I heard on SC. I'm suprised at the lack of respect he is getting here. I thought he was if not a lock for the Hall he had a great chance. The Reds had quite a few who were no brainer HOFers, perhaps comparing Larkin to Rose, Bench, Morgan causes one to diminish his accomplishments. BTW if I was voting I would have Maris in. >>
Hey Brick, as you followed baseball through the years, did you ever think, I need to stop and see what Larkin did tonight or say I can't wait to see Larkin play tonight. Probably not. And in my mind these are the guys that belong in the Hall. I think I paid more attention to Tim Raines than Barry Larkin and I think he was probably better, but neither would be a HOF in my mind.
Larkin, as stated earlier in probably around the 10th or so best SS of all-time, which should merit serious consideration for the HOF, but probably leaves him on the outside. And the comparison to Trammell is a great comparison, without looking at stats and having followed baseball for the last 36 years, I would say that Trammell was better.
No I was never in eager anticipation of Barrys next AB. There have been very few players that would have my attention to that degree. I'm not saying Barry is one of the elite in the HOF but he is very deserving. I see a lot of complaining about mediocrity in the Hall but the requirements are what they are. Some feel only the best of the best HOFers belong there. That is a fair argument but that is not the requirements to get in. I do remember having great anticipation for the next AB of Rose, Aaron, Williams and maybe a couple more guys. I remember dreading the next great play by Brooks Robinson in the 1970 WS. If only these guys and their equivilent are the only ones in, the Hall could be toured in an hour. As for Barry being the tenth best SS in over 100 years of MLB I would think that would make him a shoo-in. I can't imagine the tenth best at any position not being in the Hall.
As for Trammell perhaps he is getting a raw deal but that is no reason to deny others of their rightful place in the Hall. Also I would vote for Trammell but I do not have that opportunity.
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Ralph
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<< <i>
<< <i>When will people start to realize that positions of importance on the field get more HOF attention. Larkin is one of the best overall shortstops of all-time, there is NO doubting it. He has an MVP Award. He helped his team win a World Series. He was an 11-time All Star. He played 99.99% of his career at SS. He played his entire career for his hometown Reds. He was a solid individual away from baseball. To say he's not worthy of the Hall makes your opinions invalid. >>
He's not worthy of the hall of fame. That's a valid opinion. >>
Instead of just throwing out blanket statements, explain to us why you think he's not Hall-worthy.
<< <i>
<< <i>Larkin's stats are give or take equal to Alan Trammell. Tram is snubbed every year with no serious consideration...... People say Larkin 1-had a magnetic personality and 2- he's part of the Reds' storied franchise. 1-Tram has managed and is currently coaching a 1st place team, 2- what about Concepcion??. What's the greater travesty? The Hall is a sick joke wrought with controversy. Sorry Barry..... Until Tram gets in, you get no love. >>
Why not tell us how you really feel, don't hold back now.
The hall of fame lost it's luster a long time ago. Their are too many people that should not be in that are.
The other problem is their are many players that are not in that should be.
Dave >>
Larkin vs. Jeter
<< <i>The biggest joke is not that Larkin got in - you can make a case for him - but that Jeff Bagwell got 56% of the vote. Comical. >>
This voter reluctance to make some a 'first ballot' hall of famer thing is ridiculous. If someone is a hall of famer, then the writers should vote on them. Not wait until 2nd or 3rd ballots, since they are a 'first ballot HoFer', you are right, ridiculous and comical.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>When will people start to realize that positions of importance on the field get more HOF attention. Larkin is one of the best overall shortstops of all-time, there is NO doubting it. He has an MVP Award. He helped his team win a World Series. He was an 11-time All Star. He played 99.99% of his career at SS. He played his entire career for his hometown Reds. He was a solid individual away from baseball. To say he's not worthy of the Hall makes your opinions invalid. >>
He's not worthy of the hall of fame. That's a valid opinion. >>
Instead of just throwing out blanket statements, explain to us why you think he's not Hall-worthy. >>
Being a good fielder for the same hometown team his entire career does not make up for the good numbers he put up at the plate. Not a .300 hitter? Check. Not much power? Check? Sure, he won an MVP and fans voted him into All Star games, but that doesn't make up for the bat.
And, before you say something silly like an opinion is invalid, think about it yourself. It's called an opinion.
<< <i>Being a good fielder for the same hometown team his entire career does not make up for the good numbers he put up at the plate. Not a .300 hitter? Check. Not much power? Check? Sure, he won an MVP and fans voted him into All Star games, but that doesn't make up for the bat.
And, before you say something silly like an opinion is invalid, think about it yourself. It's called an opinion. >>
A good Hitter? To Quote Hardball times:
During his entire career, the average shortstop hit just .256/.317/.361, while Larkin hit .295/.371/.444 -- an OPS difference of 20.2%. Very few players dominate a position like that for so long and only two big-name shortstops from the past 30 years have out-performed the rest of the position offensively more than Larkin did.
OPS SS OPS DIFF*
Alex Rodriguez .963 .735 31.0%
Nomar Garciaparra .919 .736 24.9%
BARRY LARKIN .815 .678 20.2%
Cal Ripken Jr. .798 .675 18.2%
Robin Yount .757 .641 18.1%
Alan Trammell .767 .665 15.3%
Derek Jeter .848 .737 15.1%
Miguel Tejada .807 .744 8.5%
Dave Concepcion .679 .629 7.9%
Ozzie Smith .666 .648 2.8%
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>When will people start to realize that positions of importance on the field get more HOF attention. Larkin is one of the best overall shortstops of all-time, there is NO doubting it. He has an MVP Award. He helped his team win a World Series. He was an 11-time All Star. He played 99.99% of his career at SS. He played his entire career for his hometown Reds. He was a solid individual away from baseball. To say he's not worthy of the Hall makes your opinions invalid. >>
He's not worthy of the hall of fame. That's a valid opinion. >>
Instead of just throwing out blanket statements, explain to us why you think he's not Hall-worthy. >>
Being a good fielder for the same hometown team his entire career does not make up for the good numbers he put up at the plate. Not a .300 hitter? Check. Not much power? Check? Sure, he won an MVP and fans voted him into All Star games, but that doesn't make up for the bat.
And, before you say something silly like an opinion is invalid, think about it yourself. It's called an opinion. >>
So he's not a HOFer because he hit .295 and not .300 and is only 9th all-time in HRs for shortstops, that along with completely disregarding his MVP Award, World Series ring, 12 All Star appearances, 9 Silver Slugger Awards, 3 Gold Glove Awards, playing 99.99% of his career at SS for the same team, his upstanding presence in the community and 10th place WAR ranking among all-time shortstops. I get it now. You changed my mind. I never thought that we are supposed to DISREGARD what makes a player a HOFer when deciding whether or not they are Hall material. You have really opened a lot of minds here today.
<< <i>
<< <i>The biggest joke is not that Larkin got in - you can make a case for him - but that Jeff Bagwell got 56% of the vote. Comical. >>
This voter reluctance to make some a 'first ballot' hall of famer thing is ridiculous. If someone is a hall of famer, then the writers should vote on them. Not wait until 2nd or 3rd ballots, since they are a 'first ballot HoFer', you are right, ridiculous and comical. >>
Reluctance to make someone a first ballot electee is not always the issue. Each writer is only allowed to vote for 10 candidates. Depending on who else is on the ballot, how long
other have left to remain on the ballot, etc. it is certainly possible that worthy candidates get held-over to year 2 or year 3 simlpy due to who else might be on that year's ballot with them.
Dave
<< <i>So, his numbers get him in because of his position? Got it. >>
Of course they do.
<< <i>So, his numbers get him in because of his position? Got it. >>
Yes, you do compare players by position. Most pitchers could not bat .200, you don't compare their bat to an outfielder who basically only needs to be able to bat to be considered good.
What defines a great catcher or shortstop has never been their bat.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>The biggest joke is not that Larkin got in - you can make a case for him - but that Jeff Bagwell got 56% of the vote. Comical. >>
+ 1
Unless they wanted to have Bags and Biggio get elected at the same time.
Larkin is a HOF shortstop, my only complaint was the number of games he missed over his career.
Trammel belongs in the Hall as well.
I'd also vote for Omar Vizquel who was superior to all of the above in defense and can STILL swing a bat
<< <i>
<< <i>So, his numbers get him in because of his position? Got it. >>
Yes, you do compare players by position. Most pitchers could not bat .200, you don't compare their bat to an outfielder who basically only needs to be able to bat to be considered good.
What defines a great catcher or shortstop has never been their bat. >>
+1
Comparing numbers between positions is comparing apples to oranges. Shortstops and 2nd basemen need to be quick and agile enough to cover a ton of ground in the field. That usually means that they don't have the stature of an outfielder or first baseman. That also means that they have to sacrafice power for speed. So to say that a single set of standards such as total HRs should define a HOF career is asinine.
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<< <i>FORUMS > SPORTS CARDS & MEMORABILIA FORUM >>
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It may not be memorabilia related but it beats the hell out of another thread about an eBay seller to avoid. Will someone throw a picture of a Larkin card on here to satisfy him?
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Let the discussion continue.